Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down

[squiggit]

Yeah that's what I meant. Many fiends (and other creatures) can pierce magical concealment but that ability is not due to them being fiends or outsiders in general. AFAIK the Fiend Subtype (if it even is a subtype) does not grant any abilities. Darkvision on the other hand comes from being an Outsider.

That's probably why he said "some fiends" >.>

[No brains]

HAY! We're not letting this thread die until we get to my suggested title!

Returning to Disabled vs Staggered: Disabled describes creatures that can be stable and conscious at negative hit points here, but both staggered and unconscious call how creatures with negative hit points as always being unconscious here and here respectively. What entry takes precedence?

[ShurikVch]

Dysfunctions, related to soul and soul-related spells (Trap the Soul, Soul Bind, Soul Shackles, Imprison Soul, Ensul's Soultheft and, maybe, several more):
1. Nowhere in the spell's descriptions was mentioned necessity for target to actually have soul in the first place (And, if you think everyone have souls, just one counter-example: Death Giants)
2. Also, descriptions don't specify how many times target can be affected (So, you can potentially harvest unlimited amount of souls from the very same target and use them to bargain with fiends, or as described in BoVD optional rule "Souls as power")
3. Description of Soul Shackles says:

If the subject is hostile, or if the answer to the question was an important secret to it in life, the subject gains a Will saving throw. A successful saving throw indicates that the spell ends and the soul departs to the afterlife.

Yet it have

Duration: Instantaneous

[Allanimal]

Odd one I noticed the other day: Apparently, a level 20 Spirit Shaman is unable to avoid being hit by his or her own Chastise Spirits ability.

Chastise Spirits (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a spirit shaman can use divine energy granted by her patrons in the spirit world to damage hostile spirits (see the What is a Spirit? sidebar).

(emphasis mine)

A 20th level spirit shaman using chastise spirits presumably does not consider itself hostile, so is able to avoid the damage.

[Chronos]

Commoners are supposed to be average people, right?
The rules for improving creatures say:



In the SRD, every creature with NPC class levels has those stats.
So an commoner would have slightly above average stats, while they're supposed to be average members of their race.

What's the dysfunction here? 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 is average. An NPC built with those stats is a little above average in some ways and a little below average in others, just as you'd expect, but average overall.

[Inevitability]

What's the dysfunction here? 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 is average. An NPC built with those stats is a little above average in some ways and a little below average in others, just as you'd expect, but average overall.

Yes, but an average Gnoll, an average Vrock or an average dragon uses the 10,10,10,11,11,11 ability score array. Why should an average human use other scores? It'd be logical to assume that dragons also have their strong and weak abilities, yet they get 'completely' average scores.

[No brains]

Dysfunctions, related to soul and soul-related spells (Trap the Soul, Soul Bind, Soul Shackles, Imprison Soul, Ensul's Soultheft and, maybe, several more)

The definition of souls is itself a dysfunction. The only place where souls are even slightly defined is somewhere that I can't remember where it says that incorporeal undead creatures are souls (and so anything that could contain their soul contains the creature?) and in creature types in Monster Manual where it mentions that outsiders do not have souls as a unit separate from their bodies.

I suspect that we could make an entire thread devoted to soul dysfunctions. Then again, since this is a popular topic in philosophy, all the dysfunctions could be an elaborate (and seriously nerdy) easter egg by the devs.

What's the dysfunction here? 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 is average. An NPC built with those stats is a little above average in some ways and a little below average in others, just as you'd expect, but average overall.

Yes, but an average Gnoll, an average Vrock or an average dragon uses the 10,10,10,11,11,11 ability score array. Why should an average human use other scores? It'd be logical to assume that dragons also have their strong and weak abilities, yet they get 'completely' average scores.

What I'm going to guess is up here is that the high variance for NPCs is to give them character. When talking to and interacting with a person, their strengths and flaws have an impact on what they might do or say and may even be outwardly noticeable. When a creature like a gnoll or dragon busts out of concealment to attack someone, the most that is apparent is that it is attacking someone...

[Sith_Happens]

When importing it from Manual of the Planes, the writers of the Spell Compendium saw fit to remove the lines in the Ethereal Mount spell stating that it only works on the Ethereal Plane. They did not, however, see fit to define what the speed of an Ethereal Mount is on any plane other than the Ethereal.

[TrueJordan]

I posted in the wrong thread, but tell me if this makes sense:

If you look at the wording for heal:



So if you use heal on an undead creature, it refers you to harm, right? Let's take a look at harm:



So you use heal on an undead guy, and RAW it acts like harm, which in turn (because he's undead) works like heal, which works like harm... etc. ad infinitum.

Obviously even the slightest interpretation of RAI will fix this but RAW... derp derp

[weckar]

Not necessarily dysfunctional, but an interesting oddity to think about: Duskblades are not proficient with simple weapons.

[Sliver]

Okay, this might be a dysfunction...

Ghost Touch exists for both corporeal and incorporeal. A corporeal creature can use a Ghost Touch weapon against an incorporeal one and vice versa. What stats does an incorporeal creature use when wielding a ghost touch weapon? It doesn't have a strength score! Does he treat it like an undead treats his Con mod for HP? Then what does he use to determine whether he can carry the weapon or not? If weight doesn't matter, then is ghost touch armor still cumbersome and provides penalties when worn by an incorporeal creature?

For that matter, if the weapon and armor that a Spirit Shaman carries has the Ghost Touch property, why does he lose the ability to use it if he goes incorporeal through his Ghost Form ability? If he were to turn incorporeal through some other method, would he still be able to wield his weapon?

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, this might be a dysfunction...

Ghost Touch exists for both corporeal and incorporeal. A corporeal creature can use a Ghost Touch weapon against an incorporeal one and vice versa. What stats does an incorporeal creature use when wielding a ghost touch weapon? It doesn't have a strength score! Does he treat it like an undead treats his Con mod for HP? Then what does he use to determine whether he can carry the weapon or not? If weight doesn't matter, then is ghost touch armor still cumbersome and provides penalties when worn by an incorporeal creature?

Not a dysfunction, there's a spot in the rules that tells you what to do with a Nonability:

Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.

(Emphasis added)

[Vedhin]

Not a dysfunction, there's a spot in the rules that tells you what to do with a Nonability: (Emphasis added)

Still doesn't mention carrying capacity.

[Jack_Simth]

Still doesn't mention carrying capacity.

The Monster Manual ... III, I think... expanded on the Incorporeal subtype. Everything carried by an incorporeal creature is itself incorporeal. As soon as the Ghost Shadow picks up the Ghost Touch weapon, the weapon becomes incorporeal, and thus weightless.

Just don't ask what happens when a Shadow with Ghostly Grasp (libris mortis) decides to pick up a large rock and drop it on someone....

[Sliver]

Alright... But why does the Spirit Shaman's Ghost Form ability take away his ability to use his Ghost Touch weapon and armor?

[Svata]

I know some Knowledge(whatever) covering or not covering things were posted a page or two back, (religion & planes, I do believe), but I have another to add to the pile. Humanoids with the (extraplanar) subtype are covered under Local, not The Planes. So, some hick in a backwater on the prime who has a rank or two in K.(Local) can ID, say, a Githyanki, even though they live on an entirely different plane of existance. But an expert on the planes and their inhabitants with no ranks in Local, wouldn't be able to tell anything about them.

[Inevitability]

Just don't ask what happens when a Shadow with Ghostly Grasp (libris mortis) decides to pick up a large rock and drop it on someone....

I'm more interested in what happens if he decides to wear armor...

Or picks up a rope, floats through someone, and releases the rope, a la Kore.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm more interested in what happens if he decides to wear armor...

Or picks up a rope, floats through someone, and releases the rope, a la Kore.

The DMG has an answer to that... sort of. It won't produce a consistent result across DM's: however, on page 25, it has "Adjucating Actions Not Covered" - which essentially amounts to 'make something up that seems fair'. Personally, I'd be inclined to take a cue from Dimension Door: the space is occupied by a solid body, so when the effect allowing it to be there ends, it's shunted to the nearest open square and takes 1d6 damage (probably breaking the rope, those things aren't exactly high HP). I'd also apply the damage to the person it was in. However, it looks like the Tarol Hunt went with what seemed good for the story... which apparently was blocking his ability to breathe easily and doing something with the choking rules... possibly with a save of some kind.

[The Viscount]

Not necessarily dysfunctional, but an interesting oddity to think about: Duskblades are not proficient with simple weapons.

This was actually fixed in the PHBII errata, one of the few things they caught.

[No brains]

Ghosts in Monster Manual have strength scores. As it turns out, the archetypal incorporeal creature is only incorporeal when manifesting on the material plane. Ghostly Equipment from the creature description can send a reader on a head trip. All of a creature's carried equipment becomes ghostly equipment when the base creature becomes a ghost, plus 2d4 items the creature particularly valued in life.

It is possible to become overburdened by dying, but that's good news because you're not really dead.

Ghostly Equipment goes on to describe the ghost losing these items if they are looted from the creature's corpse. What if the creature was destroyed in a way that left no remains, like disintegrate? Does the ghost get unpilferable goodies, or do they rise with a richness of ghostly dust? Do they lose this dust if another creature takes it?

[TuggyNE]

GGhostly Equipment goes on to describe the ghost losing these items if they are looted from the creature's corpse. What if the creature was destroyed in a way that left no remains, like disintegrate? Does the ghost get unpilferable goodies, or do they rise with a richness of ghostly dust? Do they lose this dust if another creature takes it?

That's not a problem, since disintegrate does nothing to equipment of a creature it hits, ever.

[No brains]

That's not a problem, since disintegrate does nothing to equipment of a creature it hits, ever.

Everybody knows examples aren't RAW, Tuggz. Not even mine.

Okay, blundering into a sphere of annihilation. The equipment ought to be destroyed then, right?

[TuggyNE]

Everybody knows examples aren't RAW, Tuggz. Not even mine.

Okay, blundering into a sphere of annihilation. The equipment ought to be destroyed then, right?

Sure, but I don't think you'd form a ghost, since you are very thoroughly wiped out.

Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.

I think this is a potential flaw with no practical way to achieve it, so it's not dysfunctional, just slightly sloppy.

[Jack_Simth]

Sure, but I don't think you'd form a ghost, since you are very thoroughly wiped out.

I think this is a potential flaw with no practical way to achieve it, so it's not dysfunctional, just slightly sloppy.

How about "Drowned in lava", then? 20d6 Fire damage/round, as a mundane effect. Once you're dead, your equipment soon follows.

[Ksheep]

How about "Drowned in lava", then? 20d6 Fire damage/round, as a mundane effect. Once you're dead, your equipment soon follows.

You might get lucky and have your equipment fall on the ledge next to the lava.

…I've been playing too much Minecraft

[TuggyNE]

How about "Drowned in lava", then? 20d6 Fire damage/round, as a mundane effect. Once you're dead, your equipment soon follows.

Unless it takes a while for the ghost to form, this still wouldn't be problematic, just weird.

When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). […] The original material items remain behind, just as the ghost’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the ethereal copy fades away.

So all its gear would immediately become ethereal, along with copies of 2d4 other items it liked. Any destruction of the originals wouldn't affect the copies, and since it would presumably be difficult if not impossible for another creature to take possession of those, the ghost would have them forever.

[bekeleven]

I think between this, and that magical spell that can turn "one object" transparent, we'll probably end up with a more robust ruleset if we just declare lava a creature.

[Vedhin]

I think between this, and that magical spell that can turn "one object" transparent, we'll probably end up with a more robust ruleset if we just declare lava a creature.

But Prestidigitation would negate all of its attacks! Lava would be CR 2, tops.

Ooh, what is the LA for lava?! Now I can't get the idea of playing as lava out of my head. Thanks a lot, bekeleven.

[Forrestfire]

Magma-Paraelemental creatures are LA +5, which sadly isn't anywhere near worth it (Dragon 347, in any case).

[Qwertystop]

Isn't there one kind of Mephit with Alternate Form (Pool of magma) or something?