Goblins XIV: Clerical Omission.

[Traab]

Also, the way I look at it is, ok, I admit im not highly knowledgeable about D&D but from what I DO recall, Being a level 6 ranger or whatever makes you pretty powerful when compared to the average npc and city. You arent a god or anything, but you are bruce lee to the city guard's kobra kai. Thats why Goblinslayer rules the roost even though by our terms as players he isnt that big a deal, because the city he runs doesnt HAVE player characters in it besides him and saral caine. It has a bunch of standard mook soldiers that even with his comparatively low levels he can obliterate, and his obsession is with "monsters" like goblins that are way low on the cr rating. After all, his torture is being wasted on creatures that minmax and forgath were slaughtering in large numbers at level 1. But to the people of brassmoon, these goblins actually are a potential threat. An army of them could conceivably kill them off without goblinslayer and his buddy there to obliterate them.

Iirc, someone on Kores assumed level is truly legendary in the world. He isnt epic yet, but there are maybe a tiny handful of people naturally in the setting capable of matching him. However, once again, he is legendary to the npc community, because he has 15 levels of paladin and they have 5 levels of commoner/1 mook. They will never be a danger to him. However, the GAP and Minmax CAN be a danger to him, because they can level up and get stronger. So while currently they are scared because they are outgunned, they wont always be. If they live long enough they will be able to match and even defeat him. Especially because Kore doesnt seem to be going after level appropriate encounters, he is just killing everything. I dont imagine a level 15 paladin gets much exp from wiping out goblin camps that are defeatable by level one characters.

[Bird]

I wouldn't be surprised if Goblinslayer were a lower level than Kore. IIRC, GS referred to himself as "high level" a couple of times, but didn't have much to show for it other than casting Magic Fang (which he'd only need to be 4th level to cast). In his defense, he's tussled with much more than goblins--consider that the prison has ettins, minotaurs, owlbears, etc. But that's not much to go on.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Power level in D&D varies on the setting, in Forgotten Realms for example your town of about 5,000 people will most likely have at least a level 6-8 person commanding it, and your tiny goblin village will have about 1 PC. However in Ravenloft even a level 1 Fighter is a local legend. Goblins seems to be going for the latter route, Goblinslayer's "elite guards" seem to have been level 1-3 warriors rather than Commoners who happen to have weapons (IE most of the goblins we counter and the city miltia) and one thing this comic has made clear is that it is a really dangerous world. While Minmax is a braggart, both he and Forgoth brag a great deal about how they are level 2 and 4 and how much of a big deal it is. Goblinslayer is a bit patronizing to them, so a city the size of Brassmoon would most likely have maybe one or 2 level 1-3 adventures running around or retired (remember those two guys who dropped the coins outside Goblinslayer's house looked like adventurers, as well as the Dwarf Executioner), but Brassmoon is huge. So Kore being 15 would make him something that would absolutely terrify the locals but your right he wouldn't gain XP very much, this is the only fight we have seen him in that was remotely challenging to him and taking on a group of level 4 adventurs will net him almost nothing XP wise, particularly when he took out two of them in one on one fights

I thought Goblinslayer was 6-8 because I figured that he must have taken out the Ettin and Minataur by himself or with Caine, but maybe he had help of the elite guards. 4 is the absolute minimum he could be.

Also I have a theory that the world of goblins has only recently converted to 3rd edition, like in the last 5 years or so. That is why monsters with class levels is such a big deal.

Second theory, I was looking at how brassmoon is designed and how the walls are like Attack on Titan Big and the courtyard was so massive, and it looks like something that might have been made by giants and taken over by humans latter. There is a half stone giant living there and nobody seems to make a big deal out of it.

[Bird]

Also I have a theory that the world of goblins has only recently converted to 3rd edition, like in the last 5 years or so. That is why monsters with class levels is such a big deal.

Plausible, considering that Thac0 is is named Thac0. Big hint that a conversion has taken place. Too, I'm not sure how old Thac0 is, but goblins are not a long-lived race.

[Agi Hammerthief]

(He would have needed to prepare it with both still spell and silent spell--

how else would you prepare it?
when the only person to cast it on is you and noone else is around casting it for you?

[Traab]

Time for some theory crafting. I need some D&D masters to do the math and determine what levels and skills the GAP and Minmax will need to take down Kore outside of a deus ex machina. What level will they have to be to work together and take down a 15 paladin with minimal if any casualties? Give it your best guess on potential gear for both sides.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Time for some theory crafting. I need some D&D masters to do the math and determine what levels and skills the GAP and Minmax will need to take down Kore outside of a deus ex machina. What level will they have to be to work together and take down a 15 paladin with minimal if any casualties? Give it your best guess on potential gear for both sides.

Well lets do the assumptions that will favor GAP the most


1) That Kore's soul nature doesn't give him any special abilities or power, so he is still just a dwarf

2) That Kore does not have any backup items or equipment (unlikely but lets go with it)

3) That Kore can't repair or mend his current equipment (also highly unlikely but hey)

4) That GAP and Minmax can work together effectively

5) That they can get the jump on him

6) That Kore is no higher than level 15

7) That they can get some sort of basic stick or rock for Ears and Fumbles to use, maybe a small axe or something.


Ok, so ideally they would attack Kore today before he has time to rest. The GAP has mostly healed themelves and while Ears is almost out of healing (he would most likely use the rest to fix Minmax's wound) and Complains is down a rage, Kore has used up at least 2 lay on hands, a Holy Sword and a Remove Paralysis. I would assume he would use up some more healing to fix himself up. Even if Forgoth only rolled a 1 with his two axe attacks, that is ate least 15 damage each, and the hit on the hand looks like it was a crit, so counting in that and the punch to the face Kore looks like he has taken around 40 damage. Now since he is at least level 15 he should have enough lay on hands and cures to get ride of that no problem, but that does mean that he would be low on spells. So if they get the jump on him, Minmax has a freakishly powerful sword that could do some serious damage, and the rest of GAP (except of Fumbles) can dish out some serious damage, even if Ears can only use a nonmagical axe. Maybe Ears could aim for his equipment? I would hope that they melee him, because with chief dead none of them have range worth a damn.

Assuming they didn't level up from the last encounter, Complains should have a few more rages, and Minmax has one too, so they could do some damage in the surprise round, after all Kore's armor is pretty busted up. Problem is once they inflict their damage (any idea btw what is the bonus on Oblivious? I'm thinking +5.), Kore can just turn on them one by one, and they can't really take any hits. We saw from earlier that Thaco can be reduced from full health to -8 in just one hit, and that didn't look like a critical either. Ears and Minmax have armor so they might be able to survive 2 hits, but still these guys have between 3-6 rounds to take Kore out before they start losing too many members. and even if they pulled of multiple hits, Kore should have between 140-230 hit points; most likely in the 160-170 range. And at his level he should have a few spells left. Luckily his smite evil won't work on any of them, but even flanking him and with surprise rounds, the fact is nobody in GAP can do enough damage on him per round to equal what Kore can dish out, and the only one who can hurt him constantly, MinMax wouldn't be able to survive more than a few rounds even with his armor. Kores damage output is limited because he is minus an axe, and looking at his first fight with GAP he doesn't hit every single time. http://www.goblinscomic.org/11302010-4/ However a single hit was enough to destroy all of Ear's armor and i presume a second hit would have knocked him into the negatives. However two attacks in 1 round, and even with one axe being busted, Kore can still attack these guys and only 2 of them can take more than a single hit. Again here
http://www.goblinscomic.org/12032010-2/
He misses his first attack, and then almost KO's Thaco with his second hit.
Maybe if all of them attacks Kore and then ran away, but they would have to be careful for his ranged attacks. Now Minmax is wayyyyyyyyyyyy more powerful in direct combat than a level 4 character should be due to being well....Minmax, but GAP doesn't have any healing beyond a few lay on hands and with 2 of the party basically having no attack capacity....I really don't see a way of them winning this in a straight fight.

Maybe, maybe assuming they got extremely lucky, they could sacrifice Fumbles, and Ears to buy the rest of them enough time to kill Kore. Like i'm imagining this
Surprise round, they all attack Kore, a few most likely Min Max and Complains get some hits
Round 1: Kore misses, one or two of them get an attack off, Ears either destorys Kore's armor or fights with some non magical back up weapon
Round 2: Kore kills fumbles, a few attacks hit him
Round 3: Kore hits Complains reducing him to negatives, Ears uses his Lay on hands to get him back up, a little bit more damage
Round 4: Kore hits Thaco reducing him to negatives, Ears uses up his last heals to get up to positives
Round 5: Kore hits ears destroying his armor, a few more hits on him
Round 6: Kore kills Ears, Complain's rage wears off, Minmax enters his second rage
Round 7: Kore misses, they hit at leat once
Round 8: Kore kills Thaco
Round 9: Kore reduces Ears to negatives, but being in rage he fights on for another round
Round 10: Kore Hits Minmax, armor takes the hit
Round 11: Kore huts Minmax
Round 12: Kore gets stuck with armor
Round 13: Kore almost kills Minmax, minmax kills him

That is really the only way I can see this fight going, all of Gap dying to buy Minmax enough time to inflict damage on Kore. And that was assuming that Kore didn't have any spells left.


Edit: To answer your question properly, I think that GAP + Minmax would need to be at least level 8 to have a chance of winning this fight with only minimal losses, and level 10-11 to win this fight without any losses.

Also I just realized something, Kore threw away the racist axe? Why? He didn't need too. THat was a magical weapon, why didn't he keep it?

Also I realized that my earlier statement about the hit on Kore's hand being a crit was incorrect, he quite clearly deliberately gabs the axe.

[Anteros]

We don't see many fights resolved in this comic without some sort of "D.E.M." I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[guttering flame]

I've read through the Goblins comic in the last few days. Interesting

If this is really Forgath's end what did the prophecy the sooth sayer and head in the wall told him meant?

"You will die in a great battle with another dwarf. When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate."

The first part is obvious but wht's the rest about? If Kin is the serpent I don't think she was ever Forgath's prey, and while enemies (ie goblins) became semi friends, the goblinslayer is the only friend who became an enemy and I'm not sure he was important enough to be called a friend.

Does this mean Forgath is not dying yet?

[Winterwind]

Time for some theory crafting. I need some D&D masters to do the math and determine what levels and skills the GAP and Minmax will need to take down Kore outside of a deus ex machina. What level will they have to be to work together and take down a 15 paladin with minimal if any casualties? Give it your best guess on potential gear for both sides.

I think this is difficult to resolve because I don't think Kore is exactly just a level 15 (or maybe more) Dwarf Paladin anymore. Whatever this curse did to him, whether it gave him some sort of template or just flat out gave him a number of modifiers and special abilities - I'm pretty sure it did give him a whole number of modifiers and special abilities, and drawing upon the strength of the countless hundreds or thousands that he has slaughtered in the past in some way or another seems like a likely candidate. So, while we might try to figure out how strong a party would need to be to have a good shot at taking out a level 15 Dwarf Paladin (the answer to which is muddled further by the rules not applying fully, as evidenced by Kore dispelling that Hold Person¹), I don't think that gives us any idea as to how strong they would have to be to take out Kore - because I strongly suspect that Kore would tear a regular level 15 Dwarf Paladin to shreds.

Furthermore, while I wouldn't phrase it as cynically as Anteros, I agree that the resolution of this fight will not come from superior numbers and a straight up fight. It will come from a clever use of environmental hazards, magic items and such. This is a story, not a D&D game, after all. With cleverness, you can take out a foe that would be way outside of your league in a straight-up battle.


¹ Regarding people being surprised at Kore failing his save - why? If he is level 15, that gives him a base Will save of +5. If he has no Charisma bonus, and he very well may not - he doesn't exactly seem like the charismatic type, now, does he? And he must have already spent a lot of points on Strength, Constitution and at least some on Wisdom - his Divine Grace won't do anything. Given how deluded he is, I don't think he has all that much Wisdom, either - it may be as low as 14 (can't be lower, as he cast Holy Sword), so that's a +2. EDIT (I don't play dwarves! ): And then he has a racial modifier of +2 to saves against spells. Total will save of +9 against a DC of about 15-16 (I'm guessing Forgath has 16-18 Wisdom)? You're more likely to succeed on that than not, sure, but failing it is not unusual in the slightest (a quarter of the time).

Does this mean Forgath is not dying yet?

Between the prophecy not really matching up all that well (I've heard people trying to make it work with the way Kin and Minmax split; personally, I think that's ludicruous and the prophecy has not been fulfilled at all yet), Forgath not "screaming a lot", as the wall foretold, this death not being particularly nasty and the ominous KLIK in the last panel, I think it's almost certain Forgath will survive this.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Your right that it could just be +9, just to me a Paladin with no charisma bonus seems insane...but so is Kore

[Kornaki]

Your right that it could just be +9, just to me a Paladin with no charisma bonus seems insane...but so is Kore

He's also a dwarf, which comes attached with a charisma penalty. So what, maybe he has a 12 or 14 charisma, there's still a decent chance of failure.

[Traab]

The real downside to the theory crafting is, well look at the current setup. Thaco flat out could not penetrate Kores armor. I think he took two shots and found out even his boots are plate. Complains went full rage, stabbed Kore like, a dozen times or more, once again, he never even dented kores gear. He came CLOSE to taking out Kores eye at one point but failed. Ears I dont think his weapon works period. His axe went right through the armor without hurting it. The GAP's big move involved ears hurling the axe with rope attached through kores shield and his neck. He MIGHT be able to attack the weapons directly, maybe, but im not sure we can count on that. So yeah, unless he can grab some random plain weapon, ears is only good for soaking up a hit or two and healing those who can survive a round. Maybe we "missed" him grabbing Chiefs spear?

In other words, attacking NOW, even if they could, would leave us with the GAP being at best a distraction while Minmax tries to do real damage, and maybe a heal or two from ears. Bottom line, they at least need some extra levels and likely some better weapons for thaco and complains. That +1 sword was nice at brassmoon, but its not really an advantage anymore. Thats just to let them potentially be able to hurt Kore. The idea of them hitting 11 in an actual D&D game makes sense. But with this being Goblins I think that if they each go up 2 levels AND get some upgrades, they can take him in a fight.

Ok, theorycrafting aside, im picturing an eventual conversation where minmax says something dumb and mean about fumbles, the name goblinslayer gets brought up and minmax says something like, "Oh yeah, HIM. What a jerk. Im glad forgath and I beat him up, set him on fire, and watched kin stab him to death." It should give them some common ground to work with.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well assuming that Kore can't fix his equipment, at least Thaco and Complains can aim for his unprotected horrifying head now. There is also a part of Kore's left shoulder which is busted and a bit of his arm. So some chinks in the armor but um....yeah no


Also am I the only one who still doesn't think Minmax is good aligned? He killed GS and clearly thinks rape is evil, but he did slaughter an innocent village and attacked GAP primarily for vengeance. Clearly he is evil with standards, and his view point is being challenged but I don't know if I would call him good. CN at most.

[Agi Hammerthief]

MinMax is Chaotic Stupid

[Traab]

Well assuming that Kore can't fix his equipment, at least Thaco and Complains can aim for his unprotected horrifying head now. There is also a part of Kore's left shoulder which is busted and a bit of his arm. So some chinks in the armor but um....yeah no


Also am I the only one who still doesn't think Minmax is good aligned? He killed GS and clearly thinks rape is evil, but he did slaughter an innocent village and attacked GAP primarily for vengeance. Clearly he is evil with standards, and his view point is being challenged but I don't know if I would call him good. CN at most.

He was under the perception that goblins = evil when they attacked the goblin camp. And he kinda wants revenge on the goblin that nearly took his eye. He is stupid good.

[Bird]

Small point--12 charisma minimum to lay on hands, which Kore can do.

[guttering flame]

Now that I know Chief is in Kore and not in hell I'm betting he's going to defeat Kore from the inside.

[Starbuck_II]

Small point--12 charisma minimum to lay on hands, which Kore can do.

Assuming it works the way it does in D&D, he edited the feat Extra Rage remember.

How do we know it (lay on hands) works the regular way?

[Killer Angel]

Also am I the only one who still doesn't think Minmax is good aligned? He killed GS and clearly thinks rape is evil, but he did slaughter an innocent village and attacked GAP primarily for vengeance. Clearly he is evil with standards, and his view point is being challenged but I don't know if I would call him good. CN at most.

Well, desire for vengeance, isn't an evil trait.

[Winterwind]

Small point--12 charisma minimum to lay on hands, which Kore can do.

Oh right.
So another +1 to the list.

Now that I know Chief is in Kore and not in hell I'm betting he's going to defeat Kore from the inside.

Why should he have been in hell? Chief wasn't evil.

Assuming it works the way it does in D&D, he edited the feat Extra Rage remember.

How do we know it (lay on hands) works the regular way?

I'm not sure whether this was a conscious modification of Extra Rage, a simple misremembering of the rules at the time of writing it and never going back to correct it, or Minmax just being really bad at math.

[Bird]

Assuming it works the way it does in D&D, he edited the feat Extra Rage remember.

How do we know it (lay on hands) works the regular way?

You're right that we don't know that.

It's just that "it works according to D&D rules unless there's evidence otherwise" is a necessary assumption in order to have an analytical rules-based conversation. It's a conversationally useful assumption, even though it isn't going to be correct 100% of the time.

[CowardlyPaladin]

He was under the perception that goblins = evil when they attacked the goblin camp. And he kinda wants revenge on the goblin that nearly took his eye. He is stupid good.

Forogth was, but Minmax was from the start wanting to kill Goblins for XP and loot. At no point does he mention killing evil goblins until Forgoth asks him why they attacked the village, he as just doing the whole racist "these things exist to die" and moved on, in fact much like GS though far less thought out and methodical. And the vengeance on his eye was because they damage his eye...after he slaughtered the entire village. And he is attacking people who aren't evil. Forgoth actually thinks they are evil and trying to summon the white terror, but Minmax just wants XP and revenge, which feels pretty evil to me. Though he is certainly not as evil as Kore or GS

[Math_Mage]

MM has poorly-thought-out Chaotic Stupid PC syndrome. I don't think applying alignment beyond that really makes sense.

[BannedInSchool]

What? He's a 1st level adventurer. They're goblins. He's supposed to kill them and take their stuff. That's the point of the game!

[Traab]

Forogth was, but Minmax was from the start wanting to kill Goblins for XP and loot. At no point does he mention killing evil goblins until Forgoth asks him why they attacked the village, he as just doing the whole racist "these things exist to die" and moved on, in fact much like GS though far less thought out and methodical. And the vengeance on his eye was because they damage his eye...after he slaughtered the entire village. And he is attacking people who aren't evil. Forgoth actually thinks they are evil and trying to summon the white terror, but Minmax just wants XP and revenge, which feels pretty evil to me. Though he is certainly not as evil as Kore or GS

He is nothing like GS, GS enjoys torture and suffering and misery. He isnt after loot or exp or anything, he just wants to shatter the minds of everything he can get his hands on. I reference you to approximately 5 seconds after minmax learns the type of guy GS is. There was the sound of breaking glass, and another sound of goblinslayers body hitting the ground outside the tavern. Minmax is oblivious, he is an adventurer, goblins are generally considered bad guys which is true, even in universe a rather large portion of the goblin race are evil. So therefore Minmax and crew roll up and attack a goblin warcamp. He isnt doing it out of cruelty, or malice, he is doing it because thats what adventurers do. We see plenty of examples of his stubborn but not evil personality with his behavior around kin. And even now I bet he isnt working on a (crappy) plan to betray the GAP because he is just SOOOOO evil.

Bottom line, he is stupid good. You cant just point to the earliest part of the comic where he was unknowingly fighting decent guys and proclaim that makes him evil. There are far too many times he shows that he is a good guy at heart and is just a moron to ignore.

[Anteros]

Goblins even in this setting are known for attacking towns and caravans. Minmax blindly assumed they were evil, and he screwed up, but it's not a completely unfounded assumption. Even the protagonist's Goblin clan only stopped attacking caravans etc because they fell too far in power to do so.

I don't consider being prejudiced an inherently evil trait as long as the person is willing to change their view when supplied with new information. Even at the start of the comic, he was travelling with Drow.

[sum1won]

Goblins even in this setting are known for attacking towns and caravans. Minmax blindly assumed they were evil, and he screwed up, but it's not a completely unfounded assumption. Even the protagonist's Goblin clan only stopped attacking caravans etc because they fell too far in power to do so.

I don't consider being prejudiced an inherently evil trait as long as the person is willing to change their view when supplied with new information. Even at the start of the comic, he was travelling with Drow.

Eh, I always read the drow thing as one of the early d&d stereotype gags that thunt used to do a lot of. I don't think it was intended to show some early glimmers of interspecies tolerance by MM, and the inconsistency is probably just an early plot-hole.

It could certainly be retconned into a sign of tolerance, though. Or a belief that "everyone knows that drow adventurers are predominantly CG outcasts," which is probably closer to the original intent at the time the gag was crafted.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Minmax is certainly not a sadist, and he obviously objects to rape but he is basically a racist, and a violent one at that. I mean, the majority of goblins are evil yes, however in the world of GAP it looks like the majority of humans are evil as well (As the Maze of the Many confirms) and if GAP went and slaughtered a human village I think we would call them evil, or at least neutral. Remember when they had the chance to fight their way through that crowd of humans to get to Complains and they didn't. If they had slaughtered civilians to save Complains I think we would at least consider them neutral and Ears would have lost his paladin status. And there the personally had a good reason due to to the nature of the Brassmoon public, we know from the past that Minmax was never personally harmed by goblins or even knew anything about them when he attacked them. When Forgoth asked him what these goblins had done Minmax is lie "what do you mean, we are level one adventurers they are goblins, this is what you do." Its basically racism, he is killing creatures who have done nothing to him for wealth and XP. He isn't malicious or cruel, and is profoundly stupid, but its still racist

Your right he isn't like GS, but he is more like GS' elite guards, I mean the guys who attacked complains and Ears in the Red Ally honestly though that the goblins were going to kill and eat their families, that didn't make them not evil. I mean, if Ears was told that there was a group of Kobolds or what ever hanging out near by and when and slaughtered them without provokation he would fall.

I mean, on these forums and the GAP forums it was pretty acceptable to call Minmax evil before he got into a fight with GS, in fact a lot of people were basically saying that Goblins just depicts all humans as evil sighting Minmax as an example. It hasn't until he attacked GS that everything changed. And I admit that Minmax is hardly as bad as Kore or GS because he isn't a rapist or genocidal, but it seems to me to be a bad precedent to say somebody can't be evil just because they show some degree of standards. Evil doesn't mean sociopathic, many of the Elite guard certainly were not sociopaths, it just mean that your willing to put another creatures basic needs aside when it suits their purpose. I mean if the situation was reversed and GAP attacked Minmax and Forgoth while they were eating dinner for revenge, that would seem pretty screwed up. And GAP has for more justified reason for revenge, Minmax and Forgoth killed like 30 goblins who hadn't done anything other than...exist.


I mean I know minmax is operating on stupidity 1st level adventurer logic, but Kore himself is operating under stupid paladin logic.

[Math_Mage]

Kore is 'operating under stupid paladin logic' in the sense that an atom bomb is operating under the explosive logic of gunpowder. Not really comparable.

Also, the comparison to GS' guards introduces at least one obvious difference, namely, that GS' elite guards put up with what GS was doing to Kin.

Yes, MM is given the 'chaotic amoral sociopath PC' intro. Doesn't mean that's the sum of his character.