Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. II: It's A Magical Thread

[Pex]

Spoiler: Fitz Crying

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I was rather intrigued they had Fitz crying during the monologueing. It was obviously not cry-baby. When everything you come to know and believe and love is revealed to be a lie, that is devastating. With a tie-in to the movie it is rather upsetting. Sometimes all you can do is cry. Not specifically for SHIELD but any "sad" action show/movie, I do often notice no one cries because of what's happening. To finally see a main character do so I find satisfactory.

[TheOldCrow]

Spoiler: Fitz Crying

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I was rather intrigued they had Fitz crying during the monologueing. It was obviously not cry-baby. When everything you come to know and believe and love is revealed to be a lie, that is devastating. With a tie-in to the movie it is rather upsetting. Sometimes all you can do is cry. Not specifically for SHIELD but any "sad" action show/movie, I do often notice no one cries because of what's happening. To finally see a main character do so I find satisfactory.

Spoiler: Turn, Turn, Turn

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That was one of my favorite parts, for those reasons. Guys especially aren't usually shown crying when bad things happen.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cikomyr

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...That Coulson & Co are all that officially remains of SHIELD, until further notice?

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I had the impression there might be pockets of low-level agents holding out here and there. Coulson & Co. might spend some time contacting resistance cells, as it were, although that's just a guess.

[Ranxerox]

Not wanting to get anyone's hopes up but ...

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For an organization that does as many covert operations as SHIELD putting together a fake killing would probably only take about 20 minutes of lead time. Put some fake blood packs like they use in movies under Victoria Hand's clothes. Dye the icer gel red instead of blue so it seems like the guards the got neat head wounds rather than just being knocked out. Give Hand an icer shot to the head after the two fake gut shots so as to make it easier for her to play dead for an extended period.

Not saying it went down like that, but it could have.

[otakuryoga]

Not wanting to get anyone's hopes up but ...

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For an organization that does as many covert operations as SHIELD putting together a fake killing would probably only take about 20 minutes of lead time. Put some fake blood packs like they use in movies under Victoria Hand's clothes. Dye the icer gel red instead of blue so it seems like the guards the got neat head wounds rather than just being knocked out. Give Hand an icer shot to the head after the two fake gut shots so as to make it easier for her to play dead for an extended period.

Not saying it went down like that, but it could have.

interesting....

Spoiler: but..

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there is still the matter of Garrett..
he is well trained..and familiar with the icer
and i am quite sure paranoid enough to check whether they are dead or iced

[Cheesegear]

Also, I'll admit, my favourite part of the episode was Don't Fear the Reaper, and then a straight shot to Garret just chilling, reading a book. I felt it suited the character so well.

Garrett is one of my favourite characters in the show. The other being Fitz.

[The New Bruceski]

Fitz's direction in the entire episode was pretty much "you know that kicked puppy look you can do? Turn it up to eleven."

[Hopeless]

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Okay..

Is the Council of Vague Shadowy Figures implicated somehow in the new Cap movie? What happened to THEM?

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They're in the movie, but to say more would really spoil the fun!

[Reverent-One]

So there's some interesting speculation for a potentional future villian on the show.

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We hear Garret listening to "Don't Fear The Reaper".
That song is related to a iconic Avengers villian.
A villian with powers suitable for the special effects budget of a TV show.
A villian with connections to both Ultron and Hydra.

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By which I mean, the Grim Reaper.

[LaZodiac]

So there's some interesting speculation for a potentional future villian on the show.

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We hear Garret listening to "Don't Fear The Reaper".
That song is related to a iconic Avengers villian.
A villian with powers suitable for the special effects budget of a TV show.
A villian with connections to both Ultron and Hydra.

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By which I mean, the Grim Reaper.

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Oh man, the Clairvoyent is secretly The Grim Reaper? That'd be a cool twist.

Oh, also, I have a question to all you people who actually GREW UP with a show made by Joss Whedon. Does the feeling I get from this week's episode of Agents of Shield match the same kind of feeling you got from other Whedon shows, when a fan favorite character is brutally killed or something along those lines? Cause I feel like it's comparable.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, also, I have a question to all you people who actually GREW UP with a show made by Joss Whedon. Does the feeling I get from this week's episode of Agents of Shield match the same kind of feeling you got from other Whedon shows, when a fan favorite character is brutally killed or something along those lines? Cause I feel like it's comparable.

I feel like SHIELD gets super-duper bonus points because it's 16 episodes in.

Buffy or Angel didn't drop cliffhangers until Season 3 or so, which are 70 or so episodes in. That's plenty of time for us to develop emotional attachment to the characters, which makes them hit all the more harder. That's totally different to SHIELD dropping a cliffhanger before the first season is even finished, and this is a show where people aren't even attached to the characters. Did people care about Ward until now? Up until now, Fitz and Simmons were basically interchangeable (so much so that in the first episode they are considered the same agent). The fan-love pouring out for Garrett as of right now is something I've never seen in a show so early, except for Lindsey from Angel.

Buffy or Angel didn't have anything close to that in their first Seasons. Doll House? Please. There's an argument that that show was never good (even in it's second season). I still don't understand the popularity that Firefly has, because at that time I was already three Seasons into FarScape, and I guess Firefly doesn't matter to me.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear
Also, I'll admit, my favourite part of the episode was Don't Fear the Reaper, and then a straight shot to Garret just chilling, reading a book. I felt it suited the character so well.

I loved that scene. I've had that song in my head for days.

Originally Posted by LaZodiac
Oh, also, I have a question to all you people who actually GREW UP with a show made by Joss Whedon. Does the feeling I get from this week's episode of Agents of Shield match the same kind of feeling you got from other Whedon shows, when a fan favorite character is brutally killed or something along those lines? Cause I feel like it's comparable.

Not sure what you mean about "grew up" with a Whedon show. Do you mean literally, as part of one's childhood, or just following it from the beginning?

The only other Whedon show I've followed is Firefly, and comparing Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. to Firefly only causes me pangs of sadness. That sense of a quirky almost-family just hasn't developed with this show.

And speaking of which...

Spoiler

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After mulling for a few days, the entire grand reveal of HYDRA feels like it came much too soon in the lifetime of this series. Thinking back, and especially in comparison with Firefly, they never really managed to either develop the team into a genuinely bonded unit or to draw the audience into that shared relationship.

As an example, one of the later episodes of Firefly ends with everyone around the dinner table, River snitching bread from Jayne's plate, everyone relaxing as part of a small, wayward community, all of them understanding and accepting that whatever the 'verse throws at them, they at least have each other. It was a great moment, and a tribute to the show that they managed to bring you into that feeling so quickly and so well.

I've never really had that sense from this show. They've tried--the Scrabble game was a great touch--but for the most part the show feels rather sterile on the community front. This may be partly due to the fact that two of the team, May and Ward, are so ultraprofessional they tend to suppress any sense of fun (Scrabble and May's little prank aside), and in a smaller team they have more of an effect.

Add to that the show's struggle to find its stride, which took quite a while--and it still doesn't click for everyone. Even now I have a hard time really caring about anyone but Coulson, and mildly Fitz & Simmons. That sense of team and family should've been developed far more thoroughly--dare I say "competently"--long before now, so the impact of the HYDRA situation would hit home all the deeper.

So it feels like the show's plot and emotional arcs have been compressed from both directions--the slow, bumpy ride at the beginning, and the pressure to sync up with Winter Soldier near the end of the season. They could've made it work if they'd done a better job integrating storyline, character development and the growth of a sense of community from the beginning, but looking back it feels jumbled and fumbled.

Don't get me wrong--I've enjoyed it nonetheless, although sometimes in a wincing and patient way. So far, and especially in the past half-dozen episodes, it's been a fun show, a great ride and nicely entertaining. But at this point I'm not really expecting much more.

[Cheesegear]

Not sure what you mean about "grew up" with a Whedon show. Do you mean literally, as part of one's childhood, or just following it from the beginning?

I guess if you saw it in its original run, where you have to wait a week between episodes and three-six months between Seasons where your emotional attachment actually means something.

These days, I can watch five Seasons of Angel in 10 days or so, it's not the same.

[LaZodiac]

I guess if you saw it in its original run, where you have to wait a week between episodes and three-six months between Seasons where your emotional attachment actually means something.

These days, I can watch five Seasons of Angel in 10 days or so, it's not the same.

I mean this. Growing up with it, watching it as it came out, that kind of thing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear
I guess if you saw it in its original run, where you have to wait a week between episodes and three-six months between Seasons where your emotional attachment actually means something.

I don't make that same connection between original run and more meaningful emotional attachment.

I watched the first three seasons of Galactica on DVD, and I hadn't been so intensely involved in a show for many years. I only learned about Firefly a couple of years after skipping the movie and it was much the same, although the Girlfriend Factor was central in that case.

[RoboChap]

I feel like SHIELD gets super-duper bonus points because it's 16 episodes in.

Buffy or Angel didn't drop cliffhangers until Season 3 or so, which are 70 or so episodes in. That's plenty of time for us to develop emotional attachment to the characters, which makes them hit all the more harder. That's totally different to SHIELD dropping a cliffhanger before the first season is even finished, and this is a show where people aren't even attached to the characters. Did people care about Ward until now? Up until now, Fitz and Simmons were basically interchangeable (so much so that in the first episode they are considered the same agent). The fan-love pouring out for Garrett as of right now is something I've never seen in a show so early, except for Lindsey from Angel.

Buffy or Angel didn't have anything close to that in their first Seasons. Doll House? Please. There's an argument that that show was never good (even in it's second season). I still don't understand the popularity that Firefly has, because at that time I was already three Seasons into FarScape, and I guess Firefly doesn't matter to me.

I have to disagree somewhat with regards to Angel, specifically Doyle. By the time I finished watching the show, I was convinced he was in, like, the first three seasons and repeatedly mentioned how much I missed him as he was such a great character. I genuinely couldn't believe it when rewatching on DVD I discovered that he wasn't even in the second half of season 1, and indeed left the show before Wesley even arrived in LA. I was certainly emotionally invested after a short time with that show!

[Talya]

Buffy or Angel didn't have anything close to that in their first Seasons.

Season 1 of Buffy was just a half-season, extended pilot trial.

Season 2 of Buffy kicked it into high gear. When Angelus went on his rampage, the results were shocking. We weren't used to recurring, primary characters being so expendable before. Season finale of season 2 of Buffy may have been the best series finale of all time. Then the show got unexpectedly renewed.


FarScape is not bad for basically being "Muppets in Space", but all seasons of it together don't hold a candle to a single episode of Firefly.

The Stargate Franchise would have been a better comparison. Ben Browder and Claudia Black were far more interesting in the last couple seasons of that.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Talya
FarScape is not bad for basically being "Muppets in Space", but all seasons of it together don't hold a candle to a single episode of Firefly.

Word. Just word.



Also, a couple more thoughts on the last episode of S.H.I.E.L.D., which also relate to Winter Soldier:

Spoiler: WS spoilers

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One thing I noticed during the uprising at the Hub, as well as in Winter Soldier, is that HYDRA agents no longer seem so keen on self-sacrifice to avoid revealing information. In the first Captain America movie, those little cyanide tooth-capsules were all the rage, and Zola was the only one who declined to serve HYDRA one last time.

And in fact, when Sitwell was bagged as a HYDRA agent, I kept expecting him to give a big crunch and anti-heroically expire. Sadly, he never went that route, nor did anyone else. Either the new, improved HYDRA is staffed with less committed people, or S.H.I.E.L.D. has a better dental plan.

And one very nice touch:

Spoiler: minor WS spoilers

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When Cap and Natasha were down in Zola's reel-to-reel brain (one of my favorite parts of the movie), Natasha mentioned that Zola had been brought over to the US as part of something called "Operation Paperclip," a program to bring Nazi scientists to work for America.

It was only a brief reference in the movie, but this was an actual program that's profiled in a recently published book. I just watched an interview with Annie Jacobsen a week or so ago, and it was great to have that tiny reference to something real in history. I don't know if the writers of Winter Soldier came across that while doing historical research, or if they heard about Jacobsen's book and decided to throw it in.

However it happened, it was a nice touch, and a reminder that these movies can do a little more than stack in Marvel references.



That said, if you're gonna stack in Marvel references, I loved seeing Batroc at the beginning, and especially his man-to-man with Cap.

[huttj509]

Spoiler: minor WS spoilers

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When Cap and Natasha were down in Zola's reel-to-reel brain (one of my favorite parts of the movie), Natasha mentioned that Zola had been brought over to the US as part of something called "Operation Paperclip," a program to bring Nazi scientists to work for America.

It was only a brief reference in the movie, but this was an actual program that's profiled in a recently published book. I just watched an interview with Annie Jacobsen a week or so ago, and it was great to have that tiny reference to something real in history. I don't know if the writers of Winter Soldier came across that while doing historical research, or if they heard about Jacobsen's book and decided to throw it in.

However it happened, it was a nice touch, and a reminder that these movies can do a little more than stack in Marvel references.

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Wehrner von Braun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro

[lt_murgen]

Also, a couple more thoughts on the last episode of S.H.I.E.L.D., which also relate to Winter Soldier:

Spoiler: WS spoilers

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One thing I noticed during the uprising at the Hub, as well as in Winter Soldier, is that HYDRA agents no longer seem so keen on self-sacrifice to avoid revealing information. In the first Captain America movie, those little cyanide tooth-capsules were all the rage, and Zola was the only one who declined to serve HYDRA one last time.

And in fact, when Sitwell was bagged as a HYDRA agent, I kept expecting him to give a big crunch and anti-heroically expire. Sadly, he never went that route, nor did anyone else. Either the new, improved HYDRA is staffed with less committed people, or S.H.I.E.L.D. has a better dental plan.

Spoiler: the tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth

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In the original Captain America, isn't it only the captured deep cover spy that does that? I don't beleive we see anyone else break their cyanide tooth. We see the Red Skull kill one of his own, AFTER Cap destroyed the factory- so he didn't take his own life for his failure. Additionally, the only three senior Hydra agents in CAII we see captured are Sitwell (who maybe expected to be rescued) Redfords character (who planned all the time to get out of there), and the Senator who got arrested at the end (who was a self-serving weasel anyway).

[Karoht]

Spoiler: Teeth

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...or S.H.I.E.L.D. has a better dental plan.

The notion of a HYDRA dentist is rather unnerving to me.

Spoiler: Paperclips

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The speech given by Widow to the tribunal? I'm pretty sure I saw nearly a similar testimony, almost word for word, from a Nazi official going for a plea bargain at Nuremberg. I've yet to find a good source on that though.

[TheEmerged]

Spoiler: WS spoilers

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One thing I noticed during the uprising at the Hub, as well as in Winter Soldier, is that HYDRA agents no longer seem so keen on self-sacrifice to avoid revealing information. In the first Captain America movie, those little cyanide tooth-capsules were all the rage, and Zola was the only one who declined to serve HYDRA one last time.

And in fact, when Sitwell was bagged as a HYDRA agent, I kept expecting him to give a big crunch and anti-heroically expire. Sadly, he never went that route, nor did anyone else. Either the new, improved HYDRA is staffed with less committed people, or S.H.I.E.L.D. has a better dental plan.

Spoiler

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I think it's established the SHIELD has a much better health plan than Hydra - Blue Alien Blue Shield.

/rimshot

[theNater]

Spoiler: WS spoilers

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One thing I noticed during the uprising at the Hub, as well as in Winter Soldier, is that HYDRA agents no longer seem so keen on self-sacrifice to avoid revealing information. In the first Captain America movie, those little cyanide tooth-capsules were all the rage, and Zola was the only one who declined to serve HYDRA one last time.

Spoiler

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Zola was one of the founding members of the new HYDRA. With him as their role model, I don't think it's all that surprising that his followers aren't willing to give their lives for the cause.

[Joran]

I feel like SHIELD gets super-duper bonus points because it's 16 episodes in.

Buffy or Angel didn't drop cliffhangers until Season 3 or so, which are 70 or so episodes in. That's plenty of time for us to develop emotional attachment to the characters, which makes them hit all the more harder. That's totally different to SHIELD dropping a cliffhanger before the first season is even finished, and this is a show where people aren't even attached to the characters. Did people care about Ward until now? Up until now, Fitz and Simmons were basically interchangeable (so much so that in the first episode they are considered the same agent). The fan-love pouring out for Garrett as of right now is something I've never seen in a show so early, except for Lindsey from Angel.

Buffy or Angel didn't have anything close to that in their first Seasons. Doll House? Please. There's an argument that that show was never good (even in it's second season). I still don't understand the popularity that Firefly has, because at that time I was already three Seasons into FarScape, and I guess Firefly doesn't matter to me.

As RoboChap points out, Angel bumped off a major character (one of the three main characters) in the first half of season 1; it really is amazing that I remember him (he made that much of an impression) and was really well-liked and then he was gone. Dollhouse bumped off a supporting character in the first season also, although nobody really liked him.

It feels like the last few episodes has been the "There are two flowers in a vase" point in the show, where they shifted from an episodic show to a serialized show.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Karoht

Spoiler: Paperclips

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The speech given by Widow to the tribunal?

Spoiler: minor WS spoilers

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No, this was earlier, when they were in the extra-secret underground division below the first S.H.I.E.L.D. headquarters, with all the 70s-era magnetic tapes. Natasha mentioned Operation Paperclip in passing as an explanation for how Zola reached the US.

Originally Posted by lt_murgen

Spoiler: toothiness

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In the original Captain America, isn't it only the captured deep cover spy that does that?

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I thought there were a couple others, or at least that the dialogue suggested there had been others who ate the tooth before talking. And General T. L. Jones said as much to Zola during the interrogation, how all the other captured HYDRA agents had gnashed away, and Zola was the only one who hadn't.

Or something like that. The interrogation scene I'm sure of, the rest may just be inference.

As for Sitwell, he didn't look like someone expecting a rescue--not when he was dropped off the roof and squealed, nor when they were in the car and he was whining.

(Really, how did this guy get to be a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, much less HYDRA??)

Originally Posted by theNater

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Zola was one of the founding members of the new HYDRA. With him as their role model, I don't think it's all that surprising that his followers aren't willing to give their lives for the cause

.

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Hm. Good point.

Also, I wonder if in some slight way this might be a commentary on the limits of dedication in the modern age? In Cap's time, people fought hard and believed hard, but these days they're more likely to weasel out of a commitment?

This is probably me reading way too much into it, but I did notice that today's generation of HYDRA lacks a certain mad fanaticism.

Originally Posted by TheEmerged

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I think it's established the SHIELD has a much better health plan than Hydra - Blue Alien Blue Shield.

Spoiler

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I don't know whether to love you or hate you.

.

[Archonic Energy]

UK time:

Spoiler: yes men

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interesting ending. So May's keeping an eye on AC

"Odin" wants her alive... is he trying to thin the heard a bit, or does he need her for a later plan?

so, Fury's "busy" ... at least he wasn't ... you know...

finally Sitwell... it's a shame I know things from TWS that make me dislike him but at least AC doesn't trust him

[Cikomyr]

Also, I'll admit, my favourite part of the episode was Don't Fear the Reaper, and then a straight shot to Garret just chilling, reading a book. I felt it suited the character so well.

Garrett is one of my favourite characters in the show. The other being Fitz.

The funny part that I got today is that the name of the killer drones who were pursuing him were actually "Reapers"

Kind of a sweet Fridge Brilliance Joke

[Palanan]

It's the little things.





EDIT: Are you sure they were Reapers, though? Maybe it was just the camera angle, but I have the impression they were something different.

I'm not a UAV expert, just my impression.

[Cikomyr]

Nah,not 100% sure. But it would be darn funny, wouldn't it?

[Palanan]

Hilarious beyond words if true.