Alter Self

[John Longarrow]

Note that most folks haven't touched on a unique use for alter self.

As you gain the senses and form you choose, this is a great way to overcome blindness or missing limbs. Extended (bumped to 3rd) means a 5th level Wizard can pull off letting the armless fighter have arms for almost 2 hours.

[Story]

It's pretty situational seeing as there's no way to lose limbs in the first place.

[hymer]

[...] a 5th level Wizard can pull off letting the armless fighter have arms for almost 2 hours.

Alter Self is a personal spell, so it's not so straightforward to put it on the fighter. Which is a shame, it would be a much appreciated boost for the average melee.

[John Longarrow]

Hymer,
I'll have to recheck how we did it. There is a way to get personal spells on another person, but I can't remember the trick right now.

[Rubik]

Hymer,
I'll have to recheck how we did it. There is a way to get personal spells on another person, but I can't remember the trick right now.

Well, scrolls work, as do wands, but those require UMD for anyone who doesn't have the spell(s) on their spell list (like most martial types). A StP erudite could do it more easily, using the Soul Crystal power -- but then again, what can't they do?

The spellguard of Silverymoon PrC could do it, given that Alter Self boosts AC. Then you could toss in Ocular Spell and Chain Spell and use it on the entire party. Or combine it with war weaver for the same basic effect.

[Vaz]

To mke it definately viable for spellguard, magic of the land, but noone who is going for spellguard doesn't take that (sorry for the double negative brains not working) tale that anyway if they know what they're doing.

It would be Incantatrix wasting their abilties on heightened fireballs.

[ericgrau]

Pretty much movement modes and natural armor. There are also some tricks that are a bit questionable, but you might sometimes get away with them.

Even better on sorcerers, since they need the most flexible spells they can get, due to the limited nature of their spellcasting.

Movement and armor is actually pretty narrow and limiting, even when you can get 937 versions of them. If you aren't allowed the cheesy tricks then battlefield control is actually much more general purpose for combat than most anything else.

[Story]

Spell Theft + Spellblades can transfer spells to anyone without requiring Silvery Moon.

[Rubik]

Pretty much movement modes and natural armor. There are also some tricks that are a bit questionable, but you might sometimes get away with them.

Movement and armor is actually pretty narrow and limiting, even when you can get 937 versions of them. If you aren't allowed the cheesy tricks then battlefield control is actually much more general purpose for combat than most anything else.

Hmm. Spend one spell on a single movement mode, or spend one spell on all the non-teleportation movement modes that lasts 10x as long, for a lower level spell slot, along with providing you with disguises, skill boosts, feats, natural armor, and possible access to special abilities via Assume Supernatural Ability (dependent on your type)? That definitely makes Alter Self worthwhile for sorcerers, in my book.

[cosmonuts]

Any blindsight forms for humans with alter self?

[Rijan_Sai]

Nitpick: Swift Fly is level 2. If you mean long duration flight, the point stands though.

Nitpick to your nitpick: Swift Fly is SPC/splat; Alter Self is core.

[Vaz]

Any blindsight forms for humans with alter self?

Blindsight is explicitly not picked up.

[TuggyNE]

He is correct in that the human feat at first level isn't actually ever called out as a Bonus Feat, and so cannot be selected, but I have no idea where the whole advances as a character comes in at all.

Not sure there's a meaningful difference between bonus and extra, though, which the argument appears to depend on; neither is ever given any formal definition that works in this context (since a bonus feat is certainly not "a positive modifier to a die roll feat", whatever else it may be), so the standard English meanings, which are synonymous for most if not all purposes, must be used instead.

[Amphetryon]

Not sure there's a meaningful difference between bonus and extra, though, which the argument appears to depend on; neither is ever given any formal definition that works in this context (since a bonus feat is certainly not "a positive modifier to a die roll feat", whatever else it may be), so the standard English meanings, which are synonymous for most if not all purposes, must be used instead.

Merely out of curiosity, do you read Alter Self to grant an extra Skill Point if used to turn into a Human? 4th Level Gnome Sorcerers (for instance) could find that mighty handy to weasel into some PrCs, if you only check eligibility on entrance.

[TuggyNE]

Merely out of curiosity, do you read Alter Self to grant an extra Skill Point if used to turn into a Human? 4th Level Gnome Sorcerers (for instance) could find that mighty handy to weasel into some PrCs, if you only check eligibility on entrance.

RAW? Yeah, I think so. In any sort of actual game? Certainly not. Nor the bonus/extra/plus/additional/other-synonym feat, for that matter.

[Amphetryon]

RAW? Yeah, I think so. In any sort of actual game? Certainly not. Nor the bonus/extra/plus/additional/other-synonym feat, for that matter.

Given what I see some folks discuss on the various 3.X fora regarding things allowed in their games, such as Curmudgeon's reading of Enlarge Person, I'm not sure I'd ever entirely rule out such a ruling in an actual game.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Given what I see some folks discuss on the various 3.X fora regarding things allowed in their games, such as Curmudgeon's reading of Enlarge Person, I'm not sure I'd ever entirely rule out such a ruling in an actual game.

I'm kinda curious, do you have a link by any chance?

Kinda on topic, is there any good form that would actually be useful at level 8 (Suel Arcanamach build)?

[ericgrau]

Hmm. Spend one spell on a single movement mode, or spend one spell on all the non-teleportation movement modes that lasts 10x as long, for a lower level spell slot, along with providing you with disguises, skill boosts, feats, natural armor, and possible access to special abilities via Assume Supernatural Ability (dependent on your type)? That definitely makes Alter Self worthwhile for sorcerers, in my book.

I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn. That's the only one you really need 98% of the time. For the other 2%, you pop a scroll. They're so rare it might only be one for the whole campaign.

All those put together are still pretty narrow and uncommon utility uses. Except feats, which won't be allowed anyway. The natural armor is worth less than the combat turn you use, so it's limited only to dungeons. That's pretty bad when you're not a wizard who can swap out your 10 min/levels for hour/levels as needed. I carry utility scrolls for 25 gp a pop, including disguise self. And yet I need the disguise self about every 3 campaigns. These things are so so uncommon. In terms of versatility you get 40 pennies when another spell like web might give you 5 dollar bills.

[Amphetryon]

I'm kinda curious, do you have a link by any chance?

Off-topic, but requested by Dusk Eclipse:

If you do the math, the effect of +2 to STR and an 8x multiplication of gear weight has the same effect as if they didn't change size but their load tripled. Enlarge Person is good for three uses:
Monks and other characters who carry next to nothing, so it's still a Light load.
Armored characters who go from Medium to Heavy encumbrance, which imposes no additional penalties. (My guess: that's really the only case the spell was designed for.)
Enemies, to make them encumbered.

If you pay attention to encumbrance, Enlarge Person is only a halfway decent buff spell. But that third use as an offensive spell makes it more versatile than most people think. Hit a lightly-loaded enemy with that spell, indoors, and you may take them out of most of the combat. Most of the time that'll put them into medium encumbrance, slowing them down (to about 69% of normal speed). But being taller than ceiling height will mean squeezing rules apply: double movement cost penalties, with a net reduction to about 34% of their normal speed. They'll have another -4 to attack and AC, on top of the -1 from size increase. And, with double movement cost penalties, they can't take 5' steps.

[dextercorvia]

I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn. That's the only one you really need 98% of the time. For the other 2%, you pop a scroll. They're so rare it might only be one for the whole campaign.

Sometimes when you are overcoming an obstacle, rather than just avoiding melee, you need to fly for longer than 1 round.

[ericgrau]

So it's a utility out of combat use. Which will probably happen once every 2 campaigns. Maybe never if you can't take the party with you. That's why I bring scrolls of spider climb.

That aside, it's better to be useful 98% of the time and fail 2% of the time than the other way around.

[Amphetryon]

Sometimes when you are overcoming an obstacle, rather than just avoiding melee, you need to fly for longer than 1 round.

Or you've used Divination or other scouting techniques to know that flying for the entirety of the next few Rounds will make combat much more viable for your team.

[Segev]

THe advantage of Alter Self as a "movement mode" spell over Swift Fly is that you can do things like Alter Self into an Aquatic Elf or a Merfolk and get water-breathing, too. And it also gives you utility and combat abilities, like stat bonuses and NAC from becoming such things as troglodytes.

Swift Fly is great if all you want is that one movement mode, sure. Alter Self is a larger but less specialized tool box.

[Deophaun]

I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn.

Alter Self lasts 10 min/level. Lesser rods of Extend are cheap. Why would you cast it in combat?

[ericgrau]

Ambush. You don't need to in dungeons. You do in wilderness. So half the time you're stuck. Also, dungeons have ceilings. By level 12 you might be able to extend it enough, but by then you have overland flight. For the one time in the entire campaign you need something unusual, you pop your 150 gp scroll of alter self or some such.

[dextercorvia]

I wouldn't spend a spell on a movement mode. At least not at first. By level 8 I might blow a level 2 spell on one. But I'd still strongly prefer spamming swift fly with my many low level slots rather than losing my turn. That's the only one you really need 98% of the time. For the other 2%, you pop a scroll. They're so rare it might only be one for the whole campaign.

Let me fix that for you. I'd still strongly prefer having a long duration buff I can cast outside of combat rather than losing my swift action every turn.

[Deophaun]

Ambush. You don't need to in dungeons. You do in wilderness. So half the time you're stuck.

Half the time you're not being ambushed in the wilderness. Plus, this is why your familiar is scouting ahead. Or your party's scout.

Also, dungeons have ceilings. By level 12 you might be able to extend it enough, but by then you have overland flight.

First, you're really stuck on flight. Personally, I prefer speed, so if I'm humanoid I go with the Varag. Has the benefit of stacking with expeditious retreat for 90'. Second, overland flight is a pathetic 40' movement rate. I can get a 120' fly speed with alter self.

For the one time in the entire campaign you need something unusual, you pop your 150 gp scroll of alter self or some such.

Or, for the rest of the campaign, when you want a universally useful buff on yourself, you just cast alter self.

[John Longarrow]

Ambush. You don't need to in dungeons. You do in wilderness. So half the time you're stuck. Also, dungeons have ceilings. By level 12 you might be able to extend it enough, but by then you have overland flight. For the one time in the entire campaign you need something unusual, you pop your 150 gp scroll of alter self or some such.

Hmm... I can walk into an ambush or I can fly ahead looking for an ambush. In a wilderness game I'll probably be able to move MUCH QUICKER by flying ahead of the party looking for that ambush rather than walking with the party and getting hit.

Toss in that I can change into something that may stand out less than the wizard walking with the party and I may be able to turn an ambush into a diplomatic encounter!

[Segev]

Since Familiars have been brought up, recall that you can share Alter Self with your familiar, for hilarious effects.

[Story]

If you manage to get a small Elemental as familiar, Thoqqua is a valid target. Hello, easy tunneling.