Warhammer 40K Tabletop XX: "Barrage is the new Precision Shot."

[hamishspence]

Tau do seem to be some of the best Interceptors around.

I could see someone with a "no-allies" preference picking Sabres instead though.

[Cheesegear]

I could see someone with a "no-allies" preference picking Sabres instead though.

So, Forge World is allowed, but Allies aren't?
...What a weird meta.

[hamishspence]

It wouldn't be a case of "Allies not allowed" but of the person wanting to field an army that are all "Imperial Guard" in this sort of case.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I know people like that. They want a "pure" army.

[Cheesegear]

It wouldn't be a case of "Allies not allowed" but of the person wanting to field an army that are all "Imperial Guard" in this sort of case.

I guess it doesn't matter so much to Astra Militarum, because they can do anything. Adding Forge World into the mix makes it worse. The only thing right now in the game that Astra can't deal with are the 2+/+ rr units. I mean, Astra aren't even that afraid of the Heldrake. Great. You paid 175 Points for an AP3 Template. You know a 5-point Flamer does the same amount of damage, right? That being said, a Heldrake can wipe out a Command in one shot, FNP or not.

Yeah, I know people like that. They want a "pure" army.

I guess to me, that doesn't make sense, because the game doesn't work that way anymore.
Supposedly 7th Ed. is being announced sometime in May to boost the end-of-year financials (more likely Codex: Orks, but, rumour-mill will say anything to get page views).
If Allies make a return in 7th, then we'll know that GW wants us to use Allies and that not using Allies isn't the way that the game is meant to be played.

[Drasius]

Psykers have ML2 Divination. It's not great. But you can have three of them for a little over 200 Points (plus your Warlord)

Is this a sign of the metrics changing from what used to be OMGWTFBBQ overpowered to the new norm, is somewhat irrelevant due to orders, the old guard codex being fairly strong already or something else I'm missing?

[Cheesegear]

Is this a sign of the metrics changing from what used to be OMGWTFBBQ overpowered to the new norm, is somewhat irrelevant due to orders, the old guard codex being fairly strong already

...Yes.
Primaris Psykers can not be your mandatory HQ like they used to be. Which means you will be taking a Company Command Squad - or Yarrick. And then you have to spend extra points on a Primaris.
Company Command Squads are ML2 Psykers for 60 Points. They know 9 Powers each, that you don't need to roll for.
The best Power in most circumstances is Divination #4; Ignores Cover.
Company Command Squads have this Power as standard. You don't need to roll.
For 20 Points, the Command Squad becomes ML3 and knows the best part of Scrier's Gaze.

Company Command Squads are immune to all effects that target Psykers (i.e; Grey Knight Mindstrike Missiles) that are currently making a comeback due to needing to deal with Councils. Company Command Squads do not suffer Perils of the Warp either.

Look at Divination. Look at how Guard work. It's just not that important.

[Eldan]

I guess to me, that doesn't make sense, because the game doesn't work that way anymore.
Supposedly 7th Ed. is being announced sometime in May to boost the end-of-year financials (more likely Codex: Orks, but, rumour-mill will say anything to get page views).
If Allies make a return in 7th, then we'll know that GW wants us to use Allies and that not using Allies isn't the way that the game is meant to be played.

Probably, yes. But most people I know put more value on how their army looks on the table than on how well it plays.

[Cheesegear]

But most people I know put more value on how their army looks on the table than on how well it plays.

Can't people have both? In fact, I know people can have both.

[Eldan]

Sure they can. But if a model looks ugly, people won't play it. And many people only like the look of one or two armies, so they won't ally with any others.

[Drasius]

...Yes.
Primaris Psykers can not be your mandatory HQ like they used to be. Which means you will be taking a Company Command Squad - or Yarrick. And then you have to spend extra points on a Primaris.
Company Command Squads are ML2 Psykers for 60 Points. They know 9 Powers each, that you don't need to roll for.
The best Power in most circumstances is Divination #4; Ignores Cover.
Company Command Squads have this Power as standard. You don't need to roll.
For 20 Points, the Command Squad becomes ML3 and knows the best part of Scrier's Gaze.

Company Command Squads are immune to all effects that target Psykers (i.e; Grey Knight Mindstrike Missiles) that are currently making a comeback due to needing to deal with Councils.

Look at Divination. Look at how Guard work. It's just not that important.

Heaps of low accuracy, low strength shots that rely on volume of fire with easy access to ignores cover? I would have thought precience would have been worth it's weight in no-you-don't-even-have-to-roll-for-it gold. Does Precience affect entire tank/sentinal squadrons or just the one model, cause squadrons re-rolling to hit with blast weapons would be pretty boss, especially since you might be flooding the field with a heap of armour with a tank commander armoured company and some psychers in a Chim/Bushmaster Taurox. 4++ on guard is also pretty win, as is firing overwatch on full BS for an army that will get charged a bunch and has a billion shots.

But then we all know Div is full of win.

I just (as a new player) struggle to see where div is not a great thing, especially on very large blob squads pumping out masses of low accuracy fire. Or anything really, but I would have thought guard would have the biggest benefit from it, doubly so since they can also take a bunch of plasma on their command/special weapons squads and twin linked plasma guns are the best thing since the Emperor in the plasma edition.

Not having a go at you, just trying to understand where my thinking has taken a wrong turn.

[Cheesegear]

Sure they can. But if a model looks ugly, people won't play it. And many people only like the look of one or two armies, so they won't ally with any others.

The only armies that I don't like the look of are Necrons and Space Wolves, but, I must be weird like that. Everyone around me loves Space Wolves and thinks Prospero Burns is the best thing ever written. Which makes me mad because Prospero Burns actually is the best-selling Horus Heresy novel so far.

Heaps of low accuracy, low strength shots that rely on volume of fire with easy access to ignores cover? I would have thought precience would have been worth it's weight in no-you-don't-even-have-to-roll-for-it gold.
4++ on guard is also pretty win, as is firing overwatch on full BS for an army that will get charged a bunch and has a billion shots.

First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! basically does the same thing as Prescience, in a roundabout way.
4++ is fantastic. I'm not going to say you're wrong on that one at all. Unfortunately, it's random.

[Issabella]

If you want to do the Guard...err Astra Militarum Air Calvery route I would suggest using the FW Elysian drop troops (IA 3 volume 2) has the most updated rules. I will work on a guide as I have this week off (have not played them, but I do have the rules :) )

[Cheesegear]

I will work on a guide as I have this week off (have not played them, but I do have the rules :) )

Do you have the new Astra book? Is everything in IA3 totally over-costed and awful?

...I should get IA3...But I really want HH3...
ARGH!

[Eldan]

The only armies that I don't like the look of are Necrons and Space Wolves, but, I must be weird like that. Everyone around me loves Space Wolves and thinks Prospero Burns is the best thing ever written. Which makes me mad because Prospero Burns actually is the best-selling Horus Heresy novel so far.

I feel that way about Warhammer Fantasy, where I love almost every army (Dwarves and empire are a bit boring, Bretons are just old and I don't like the look of Beastmen), but 40k? I can't think of a single human model I like, they are boring, all of them. Especially all the marines. I'll never understand why GW produces so many almost identical-looking armies.

Otherwise... I play Eldar and Nids, the models are cool. Necrons would be my third choice, they are quite awesome. I like building my own models from leftovers or conversions in general, so I dig orcs, too. Dark Eldar aren't bad. Tau are bland.

[Renegade Paladin]

I prepared two lists for today's initial test games, the first a rewritten list from the old codex and the second built from scratch to test a couple of the new units and reduced point costs. Sadly, we only got one game in, since I wound up playing with one of the shop owners and he had to keep going to the counter to deal with the kiddies and their Pokemon cards.

Spoiler: List 1

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1500 points

Company Command Squad - 185
-Medi-pack, vox-caster, carapace armor
-Two plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Infantry Platoon - 190
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Three flamers
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Autocannon, flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Autocannon, flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 95
-Vox-caster
-Three meltaguns

Militarum Tempestus Squad - 100
-Two plasma guns

Valkyrie - 125

Devil Dog - 155
-Recovery gear, smoke launchers
-Multi-melta

Leman Russ Demolisher - 170

Manticore - 170

Spoiler: List 2

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1500 points

Company Command Squad - 103
-Officer of the Fleet
--Laspistol
-Vox-caster, camo gear
-Three sniper rifles

Tank Commander - 475
-Vanquisher commander
--Lascannon
-Battle tank
-Battle tank

Enginseer - 40

Infantry Platoon - 335
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Three flamers
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Autocannon, flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Autocannon, flamer
-Heavy Weapons Squad
--Three missile launchers
-Special Weapons Squad
--Three meltaguns

Veteran Squad - 86
-Forward Sentries
-Three sniper rifles, autocannon

Veteran Squad - 96
-Forward Sentries
-Three sniper rifles, lascannon

Hellhound - 130
-Heavy flamer, smoke launchers

Vendetta - 170

Wyvern - 65

In the game we played, I used the first list. He fielded Chaos Marines, with two winged Daemon Princes, two squads of Obliterators, a squad of Chaos Marines with meltaguns, two units of pistol/ccw cultists, and a lascannon Predator. We rolled Big Guns Never Tire, Dawn of War deployment, night fighting first turn. I parked my Manticore on an objective behind a hill, combined infantry squad on another objective in a ruin, and ran my Demolisher for one of the midfield objectives and the veterans in Chimeras at the other. He got first blood, and then I blew up everything that left cover for the next five turns. The game ended 3-1 on objectives with one unclaimed (he blew up the Demolisher in turn 5 with a daemon prince assault) with first blood to Chaos and slay the warlord to Guard.

So far I like the codex, though I didn't really try anything new. The list that this one was adapted from had a Vendetta instead of a Valkyrie, but it didn't fit in the points and the veterans didn't fit in it, which helped him a bit, since the Valkyrie kind of ran around being ineffective after unloading its missiles into the Predator.

[LordDavenport]

So, played a 500 point game, I ran tau versus eldar.
Best moment... my comand squad of fire warriors and an ethereal lasting a full round in combat with the farseer on a death mission... and killing the rest of the far seers squad.

the lists:

Spoiler: tau

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Etherial
Fire warriors(x9)
emp grenades
fire warriors(x8)
fire warriors(x7)
Broadside
twinlinked high yield missile pod, twinlinked smart missile system, velocity tracker.
Hammerhead
sub-munitions, darksun filter.

Spoiler: eldar

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Farseer
2xavengers(x10)
warpspiders
extarch had twinlinked webspiners, the +accuracy one, and the +1 shot thing.

purge the alien, tau deployed first, no one sized the initative.
It turned into a long shooting war, as the eldar moved in while the tau held their cover. the 9 and 7 stacks hung around the etherial in one area, while the 8 firewarriors hung out with the broadside and hammerhead. The hammerhead had a long string of misses, but were that submunition blast hit... everything died. The broadside mostly drew fire and died without inflicting cassualties... as it tried to assasinate the farseer, who had that silly invulnerable and ghost helm. didn't even get a wound on it.

Warpspiders got to close and were met by pulse rounds. as did most of the farseers squad. The other squad coming in on the heavy weapons flank did a lot better, eliminating the fire warriors of that flank in one shooting phase. until round 3, were the hamerhead ate 6 with one shot, and other fire warriors cleaned up the rest. Still, the etherials warriors suffered heavy casualties from the farseers squad, and when the farseer charged they failed to crumple like normal fire warriors. The fact the eldar lacked AP helped, and the fact that by that point most of the farseers squad was dead. it ended turn 5 with the farseer being the eldars only remaining model... and the Tau having the hammerhead, 2 fire warriors, and the ethereal.

So, tau slay the warlord(the farseer cast death mission), eldar got first blood, the tau killed 4 squads, the eldar killed 3. so 5-4 tau win. would have been a win for the eldar if the farseer wasn't using death mission.

Lessons learned: Etherials aren't the worst assault units... making me halfway tempted to give it a pair of equalizers, but only halfway.
Hammerheads are really nice artillery against Gecs and tanks. Meqs are a pain.
The broadside continues to be iffy. his high S shots are nice among the 5/5 pulse rifles, but he can die to dedicated Dakka and draws fire like a distraction carnifex.
+6FNP is really bad... like really, really bad.


Also: If I made a tau army with a allied detachment of imperial knights, and made "counts as" conversions using Gundam action figures, how much grief would I get? If they were properly sized?
For that matter, where could I find the dimensions for the imperial knight models?

[Renegade Paladin]

Also: If I made a tau army with a allied detachment of imperial knights, and made "counts as" conversions using Gundam action figures, how much grief would I get? If they were properly sized?
For that matter, where could I find the dimensions for the imperial knight models?

How much grief you get depends on where you play and the attitudes toward counts-as there. If you play at a GW shop, they simply won't allow it. Otherwise it depends on the owner's/host's attitude towards that sort of thing.

[Cheesegear]

Also: If I made a tau army with a allied detachment of imperial knights, and made "counts as" conversions using Gundam action figures, how much grief would I get? If they were properly sized?

Look, from a competitive perspective, Counts As is subjective. You're better off telling your opponents or asking your TO about what you want to do, and see what they say.

From a casual perspective, Counts As is still subjective. The most important thing about Counts As, is that it has to look good. Using 'Counts As' as a way to circumvent GW prices is generally a **** move. It's understandable, in a way. But your opponents are paying GW prices (or at least getting some of sort of bargain on the internet) to get the models that they need. I've seen Heavy Gears used in place of Crisis Suits, the similarities are amazing, but, the most important thing about the Heavy Gears was that they had been repainted to fit the Tau army. But, ultimately, if it looks bad, you're going to get grief. If it looks good, you will still probably get grief, but less so.

And, the point was made, but I'll say it again; You can not use non-GW models in a GW store/event.

[Renegade Paladin]

In a sign of how awesome Techpriests are now, GW is sold out.

[Cheesegear]

In a sign of how awesome Techpriests are now, GW is sold out.

What do you mean rules sell models? That's crazy talk.

[LordDavenport]

See, I just circumvent GW prices by playing on vassal...

[Eldan]

That doesn't really compare, in my experience. Sure, it's nice to test a list. But without seeing your opponents and the models, something is just missing. Plus, I can't paint Vassal tokens.

[Cheesegear]

That doesn't really compare, in my experience. Sure, it's nice to test a list. But without seeing your opponents and the models, something is just missing.

QFT.

There are plenty of free games on the internet which you can use to pass your time. Vassal - IMO - is probably one of the worst ways you can spend that time.

[Issabella]

Do you have the new Astra book? Is everything in IA3 totally over-costed and awful?

...I should get IA3...But I really want HH3...
ARGH!

Off work tommrow will look at the point costs of Astra vs IA 1 (vol 2) the IG tank vehicle one, and IA 3 (vol 2) the Elysians to see what has changed. Granted the IA 1's Hyrdra's still ignore jink! :)

[Trixie]

So. New IG book.

Precision shots are something that happens when certain models roll a '6'. You can then assign wounds.

The problem: new order makes all shots from an unit precision shots, without any mention of 6s rolled.

Is 2+2 = 4?

To make it worse, new relic (bolt pistol) grants precision shots, too. Since everyone who can take it already can do precision shots on 6 anyway, it seems the writer really meant 'every shot is assignable'.

Yes, that includes lascannons and krak missiles, too. Please, tell me I am wrong

Then there is Pask. Precision shots on rending gun? What else do you want? Oh, yes, twin-linking all that newly getting hot plasma tanks. Oh wait, only available from half a dozen places

***

Also, is it me, or was virtually every single model nerfed? Hydras, half or artillery missing, Marbo, almost all ICs lost special rules or are entirely MIA, Vendettas, veterans, Yarrick auto-blocks himself from warlording, Chimeras, and new models (Taurox and Vyvern) are kind of entirely outshone by old units anyway. Only new, better thing seem to be the orders. I do hope I am wrong, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

The "Take Aim!" order says that it gives the ordered unit the Precision Shot special rule. There is no Precision Shot USR, so I presume it means that all results of 6 can be allocated as per Precision Shots on page 63 of the core rules, not all shots that hit.

I can't account for the Emperor's Benediction. I can only presume all this will be the subject of errata when they get around to putting that back on their website.

[Tome]

Just checked my Tau codex and the Precision Shot wargear in there gets it right. I guess the writer of the IG AM codex forgot that Precision Shots isn't a special rule and that all ICs have it.

That, or the rumours about 7th are true and we're looking at a hint about the changes.

[Squark]

Soo... Guard allies took a hit with the Points increase. I guess that makes Tau the nearly undisputed allies champ. Great. Or are there other sources of reliable flyer defense?

[Renegade Paladin]

Soo... Guard allies took a hit with the Points increase. I guess that makes Tau the nearly undisputed allies champ. Great. Or are there other sources of reliable flyer defense?

Yeah, burn a hundred points on an Aegis line and quad gun. Alternatively, if all you want is flier defense, ally in some Hydras instead of Vendettas.