Crossroads II: I'm on a Mammoth.

[Admiral Squish]

Coatl Empire
That would certainly have an appeal. We could say there was a feathered serpent empire at some point in the distant past, falling either before the origination of the major mesoamerican civilizations between 2000-3000 BCE, or further back, around the development of agriculture in the region in 8000 BCE. That would fit with the common theme of the feathered serpent god giving humans maize. It likely wouldn't be politically united, much like most of mesoamerica, rather being made of squabbling city-states. The civilization collapsed long ago, leaving only a few extra, very strange ruins around in the jungles.

I do think it's for the best that, at least in the modern era, the coatls don't have much political power, more commonly existing as neutral parties or individuals who ally themselves depending on their own best interests.
Also: Technically the coatls don't have a speak with dead ability naturally. They can get it with a feat, though, once they get enough HD.

[Mith]

Also: Technically the coatls don't have a speak with dead ability naturally. They can get it with a feat, though, once they get enough HD.

Then perhaps the higher ups in their society (high priests and the like) all have this ability, or it's a common feat to be taken for those that do not adventure and require more combat related feats.

Another interesting idea if we give them the Library of Interesting Things* would be to have it stored in the Spirit World, and the Keepers are the only ones who can access the knowledge.

*working name

[Pokonic]

Coatl Empire
That would certainly have an appeal. We could say there was a feathered serpent empire at some point in the distant past, falling either before the origination of the major mesoamerican civilizations between 2000-3000 BCE, or further back, around the development of agriculture in the region in 8000 BCE. That would fit with the common theme of the feathered serpent god giving humans maize. It likely wouldn't be politically united, much like most of mesoamerica, rather being made of squabbling city-states. The civilization collapsed long ago, leaving only a few extra, very strange ruins around in the jungles.

I do think it's for the best that, at least in the modern era, the coatls don't have much political power, more commonly existing as neutral parties or individuals who ally themselves depending on their own best interests.
Also: Technically the coatls don't have a speak with dead ability naturally. They can get it with a feat, though, once they get enough HD.

I would like to tie this into the 'coatls are feathered dragon kolbalds' and have this empire existed a long, long time ago, to where it was destroyed in the previous age. There's probably a strain of apocalyptism in some of their priests; some might believe that the changes occurring in the world is a sign of another end-times scenario, but those same priests also said that when Cortez showed up.

[Admiral Squish]

System
This is a pretty huge concern, so I figured I should make sure everyone can see it.
This was brought up in the Caribbean thread earlier, which helped move me to make this post, but this is a topic that's been on my mind for quite some time now.

My concern is that all the new material and changes we've made as part of the development of the crossroads world has crossed outside the line that defines the borders of the pathfinder system. I don't think it's reasonable to think we'd be able to get Paizo's permission to use the pathfinder name at this point, which we'd have to get if we wanted to publish as a pathfinder supplement of some sort. I'm not exactly sure where we crossed it, or if we even started within its borders in the first place, but it's too late to stop the world from going outside the lines. The question we face now is what do we do with all the work we've done here.

I think, ultimately, we have three options before us.

The first option requires very little from us. We simply continue to proceed along the same lines that we have been thus far. We admit that this isn't going to see publishing, and simply work on it as a very large homebrew project, something we do for fun. This isn't a terrible fate, certainly. Even if it never becomes a book, our collective efforts have created an amazing, fascinating world, and I'm glad to be a part of it.

The second option requires a great deal of work from everyone, but it's got the greatest chance of future success and publishing. We'd backtrack, practically to the beginning, and accept all of pathfinder's basic assumptions. All the races, all the classes, all the magic... everything. After that, we would reassemble the world around those assumptions, making only additive changes. It would likely require a great deal of hand-waving and/or blaming magic to make it function on mechanical and flavor levels, but it would be faster to rebuild that to build in the first place, since we have all these pieces developed already. I have complete confidence that we'd be up to the challenge, though, and it would be a great success to be able to publish something under the umbrella of such a successful brand.

The third option requires a lot of work, but it's pretty much all on my shoulders. I've been working on a side-project that consists of an original tabletop game system. I believe it's possible that I could take the basic mechanics of this game system and develop them, with some significant-but-not-overwhelming effort, into a basic system of rules that would be suitable to govern a wide variety of games, much like GURPS, or how the base WoD system applies to multiple games. We could apply this system as the base upon which to build the crossroads mechanical materials. This would allow us to keep our world intact, which is definitely a worthy cause, but it would require me to develop this system and then convert all the mechanical material we've developed thus far into this new system. It's doable, certainly, and it would allow us to maintain control over the world we've worked so hard on, allow us to alter the system to accommodate our ideas as needed without fear, and keep publishing as an option (though it would have to be purely indie self-publishing).


Now, this is, obviously, an enormous decision. You've all been an integral part to the development of the crossroads project thus far, and while I have a strong opinion on the choice, I don't want to act unilaterally without putting it up for discussion among you faithful contributors. So, I'm opening up the floor to debate.

[Steckie]

Cultures

I think Dutch (The Netherlands) and Maltese (The Knights) should be added to the European cultures. Both cultures have a relatively strong presence in the New World.
Grouping all Europeans together under European culture would look very strange: 'Hey look at all these neat native cultures we have! And they have neat subcultures! Oh and there's also the Europeans, but they're all the same.'

Caribbean cultures should be relatively simple: there's the Taino and the Carib.
But to be honest, there's not much left of these guys. The Caribbean islands have been mostly depopulated by European slavers and the biggest thing that's left is Tobago and Trinidad, and they've only been there for 50 to 75 years (still need to determine that).
I suggest creating a Taino-Carib culture, a hybrid that came into existence when the converted natives of two different cultures were forced together on one small Island. It will probably have some Maltese influences, maybe some Latin names and things like that?

I'd rename the Southeast woodlands culture group into a Mississippian group that takes up most of the cultures on the river and it's tributaries.
Subcultures would be: Cahokian, Cahokia-French, Caddoan and maybe some other culture.

And i'd also add an African culture group that consists of Subsaharan, Angolan and Born In Slavery. That covers the two areas where most slaves were taken from during that time.
Born In Slavery is something very flexible depending on where that person is a slave, so it's probably best to keep that one vague.

Skype

Barring something unexpected i'm available this saturday, so you can look forward to listening to my funny accent again

Coatl Empire

If there was a Coatl empire that gives humans the secret of maize and things like that we're kinda sending out the signal that Eurasians were able to figure out agriculture for themselves, but the natives weren't. Not something we want for the amazing cultures that inhabited that area.

I do however like the idea of a feathered serpent empire. And i would love the opportunity to put some ancient ruins into the setting.
So here's my idea: Before agriculture was discovered the feathered serpents were a lot more numerous than they are now. When humans discovered agriculture, the feathered serpents shared into the newfound abundance of food and started to become even more numerous until they almost outnumbered the humans.
But at that time they were still nomads and traded for maize and other Agricultural products with the humans. Eventually they started to group together in large nomadic tribes. Those tribes grew larger and larger until a horde formed under some sort of Khan.
This horde swept over mesovespuccia and conquered all the proto-states that covered the area. This empire built a large amount of temples, cities and other structures. But they were still a horde, the first Khan ruled with an iron fist. The Second one had to quell a rebellion as large as half the empire when he took the throne, a civil war that resulted in the death of 30% of the feathered serpents. The Third Khan saw the empire fall to pieces after he failed to quell the rebellions when he took the throne.
After that the humans started to take back their little proto-nations and the feathered serpents were forced to drastically change their lifestyle or die.

The feathered serpent empire lasted for about 40 years, left several ruins and resulted in a decrease of their population that is somewhere around 70%. It drastically changed their culture and is part of the reason for their fascination with the dead.

System

A valid concern. I'm going to give my opinion on it, but remember that i'm a fluff guy at heart. I suck at mechanics, my opinion on a system may not be the best one.

The third option seems nice in theory, but i fear that a lot of people are doing this exact same thing. There's Always people trying to create their own system. And since a lot of different and not so different systems already exist and are played by many or by few it is not an easy thing to be the one system that stands out from all the others. And then there's the problem that a lot of people stick with the system they are used to.
It could work, but you'll need a LOT of publicity for this. And a lot of luck. But obviously it all starts with a good system.

Oh, and if this is the option you want, you're going to need one or two more people to help you with mechanics.
It is almost impossible to do this on your own. First of all you might get sick of all the work really fast. Second, you need other people to bounce ideas off, to help you determine what is balanced and what is not. A single person doing this work can get stuck, while a couple of persons can work through all problems that might arise.

I'm fine with the first option if it comes to that, i've been doing this for fun anyway. It's not like you're i'm getting any money for this

The second option.....I'm a bit torn about that one.
I agree that it has the most chance of succes. But i would abolutely despise adding the standard fantasy races to this setting. If i ever see a dwarf or halfling walk into Cahokia i will end up in a mental institute. I also like that teleportation and flight have been removed.
Adding all of the pathfinder assumptions, doing some handwaving so that it fits in the story and ignoring all things that no longer make sense would destroy the whole flavor of this setting.
On the other hand, there's a lot of stuff in pathfinder that is very well built and would fit in our setting with minimal adjustment.

But do remember that accepting all the basic assumptions of pathfinder doesn't mean adding everything pathfinder has.
For example: Halflings are part of Golarion, the setting for pathfinder. Removing them from the game system doesn't make any difference. Removing them from Golarion does make a difference.
Same thing with spells: removing teleport from Golarion makes a difference, removing it from pathfinder doesn't make much difference.
We could easily work with all the rules and most of the classes while adding our own classes and races to the mix. Pathfinder has a solid tradition of third party stuff.

[SuperDave]

After investing two years of my life in Crossroads, I REALLY want to see a finished product at some point, even if it's nothing more than a Google Doc that we all pass around, or (better yet) a PDF we can all download. I feel that if we convert to an entirely new system, then we'll basically have to go back to square one. In fact, we'll have to go back even further than that: in addition to needing to totally redesign all the homebrewed monsters and convert them to the new system, we'll then have to playtest and rebalance not just the monsters, but the fundamental underpinnings of the new system itself; at least we know that Pathfinder is balanced, whereas our new system will be a totally unknown quantity. We won't be sure if an unbalanced encounter is due to DM error, the design of the monster(s) themselves, or something that's wrong with the new system itself.

On the other hand, with the release of 5th Edition, Pathfinder is already on its way out, and given how different firearms-based combat is from traditional swords-and-arrows D&D combat, we're practically going to have to re-balance the whole system anyway.

I guess I'm worried that if we scrap everything and restart after two years, several bad things might result:

1. Our contributors and followers might feel that their efforts so far have been for naught, and lose interest in the project;
2. It would be harder to get people interested in our setting if it has a totally new system which hasn't been playtested extensively (at least, not to the extent that Pathfinder has), because even if they put in the extra effort to learn this new system (which is not designed by professional game designers, but by an ad hoc, all-volunteer "staff" of contributors), we still wouldn't be able to assure them that it will be balanced and fun for all players; and
3. If we stick with Pathfinder, then DMs and players will still have access to the wealth of resources which have already been created by Paizo. I'm mostly thinking of monsters here, but equipment, weapons, classes, prestige classes, and all manner of spells would be lost if we switch to a new system, and it would force players to rely entirely on material that we've created specifically for our campaign setting, without importing any of their favorite material from other Paizo sources. Players LOVE getting to mix-and-match their favorite stuff, and taking that away from them might make them less willing to try our system.

But this is a big list of "maybes". If it were up to me (and I could be sure I wouldn't get sued), I guess I'd prefer to work with what we've got and keep on truckin' until Crossroads is completely playable. I feel that's the simplest solution, because it involves the least amount of backtracking, and allows maximum compatibility with existing Pathfinder resources, which lessens the amount of work we need to do ourselves.

Come to think of it, I'm really not sure how close our material needs to be to the "standard" Pathfinder campaign setting anyway. I remember that Wizards released a Wheel of Time system for 3.5 Edition in the 90s, and that had only two races, all new classes, and a totally reworked magic system. So maybe we're worrying for nothing here.

I vote that before we make any momentous decisions about the future of Crossroads, we contact Paizo and ask them whether we would be able to publish under their banner, given the setting as it exists at this point. If they say no, then we can ask them if they'd consider giving us their blessing if we rework the fluff to include musket-wielding, gold-hungry dwarven colonists and forest-dwelling, otter-taming First Nation elves*. If they still say no, then we'll just have to go it alone.

---

*As I've said before, I think that "pure fantasy" Crossroads setting does hold a certain appeal, both as a player/DM and as a game designer. Players would have more freedom to choose from existing races and options they're at least somewhat familiar with; DMs would have the freedom to fill in the map in any way they like, without worrying about historical accuracy or misrepresenting real-world ethnic groups; and it would make our jobs easier as world-builders, since we could just make stuff up without worrying whether it's accurate, offensive, overly simplistic, historically plausible, or just plain wrong. Plus, tricky stuff like pantheons and religious customs really do need to be simplified and made consistent for the sake of playability (see Deities & Demigods), so we really won't be able to give an accurate and fair picture of every religion in Vespuccia anyway.

Pretty much all the really cool stuff we've come up with for this setting (the Link Spirals, the Knights Hospitaller, the Tuniit Janissaries, Blackbeard's Island, giant ground- and sea-sloths, the Coatl Empire, etc.) could be transferred wholesale to this new fantasy setting with a quick find-and-replace to change all the real-world names into fantasy expys.

Alternatively, if we want to stick with the alt-history approach, perhaps we could release an "expansion" of sorts somewhere down the line, in which Crossroads is re-imagined as an entirely new fantasy-world? (Don't worry, Steckie: it wouldn't need to include dwarves and halflings; we could just invent our own map and timeline, and leave humans as the default-race for the setting).



P.S. Steckie is right, bro: if you try to do all of this yourself, you WILL burn out on it. Let us help!

[Pokonic]

On publishing and options;

I would rather stick with Pathfinder, mostly because everything has been done on it, it's a commonly played system in general, and if someone turns down playing in the setting because there's no elves around, then they are likely not the sort who would be attracted to the alt-history setting in the first place. If there's some real issues about people really wanting to play a specific race, it wouldn't be hard to write a 'Halflings are a type of little-folk, as are dwarves; playable elves are fey-touched' sort of thing.

That said, I am under the impression that Piazo has a relatively fair third party policy (relevant thread, it might be worth asking around the 3rd party section of the forums about advice besides this) ; if a workable PDF is made and written properly, it could presumably be put online with their approval. We are not slacking in the material section, naturally, it would just be filling everything out and making it approachable.

Pretty much all the really cool stuff we've come up with for this setting (the Link Spirals, the Knights Hospitaller, the Tuniit Janissaries, Blackbeard's Island, giant ground- and sea-sloths, the Coatl Empire, etc.) could be transferred wholesale to this new fantasy setting with a quick find-and-replace to change all the real-world names into fantasy expys.

Ultimately, everything up there could be used in the setting; suggestions for setting adjustments or more fantastic scenarios could easily be a section onto itself. I think a lot of exceptional phenomena should have more than one explanation for it, because it wasn't as if everyone in the world at that time was working off the same general pool of knowledge. Blackbeard's island could have a different description as to what it is because the creature itself is so huge; the Tuniit having 'janissaries' could be a misunderstanding of the general status of humans in their society by more educated Europeans. Confusion and misunderstandings, on a grand scale, should and could be common.

With that said, I'm also firmly against any transition-towards-fantasy, because if that was done that absolutely nothing would be gained from it, because the only thing done would be to have a fantasy Americas instead of a fantasy Europe. It would be almost insulting at this point to just up and decide 'oh hey the Indians are elves now', because there's been some real research involved in trying to get everything right.

[SuperDave]

What if Blackbeard's Island isn't a living creature at all? What if it's just the shell or carapace of a dead aspidochleone? That way we don't have to work about keeping olit from diving, or how it feeds, or what it feeds on, or its relationship with its "passengers". All that's necessary to keep it afloat is a sufficient supply of high-grade, salt-resistant caulking. Navigation can be handled by a few mages with water- and wind-controlling spells, and most of the time they could just drift with the seasonal currents. Or harness some friendly whales to pull them along. :-)

Edit: thanks for the link to the 3rd party publishing thread, Pokonic! I'll start reading it right away.

Edit 2: I'm working my way through The Caribbean right now, Steckie. Great stuff so far; it's HUGE!

Edit 3: As for the overcultures, I'm a fan of the North/East/West/South/Heartlands approach.

[Exegesis]

Have not studied this, but. Puritans arrive on the shore and are met by pagan demons demanding submission. What happens.

[Steckie]

What if Blackbeard's Island isn't a living creature at all? What if it's just the shell or carapace of a dead aspidochleone? That way we don't have to work about keeping olit from diving, or how it feeds, or what it feeds on, or its relationship with its "passengers". All that's necessary to keep it afloat is a sufficient supply of high-grade, salt-resistant caulking. Navigation can be handled by a few mages with water- and wind-controlling spells, and most of the time they could just drift with the seasonal currents. Or harness some friendly whales to pull them along. :-)

This could work. Let's try spicing it up a bit:
Blackbeard historically died in november of 1718. There was however a quite large eruption of La Soufrière on the 26th of march of that same year.
So let's say that about 3 or 4 Earth Tortoises had been hibernating near that nice and warm volcano since a few centuries. Maybe even since the last ice age. Now, normally these creatures can sense if an eruption is coming for several months in advance, but this was no natural eruption.
A Phoenix used this volcano to blast the ashes it had gathered with fire in hopes of resurecting one of it's own kind. And it turns out there was a complete Phoenix among those ashes. The creature was reborn and the shock of getting born again after being scattered by the winds made for a blast big enough to make the volcano active. The volcano erupted hours later, killing the 3 or 4 Earth Tortoises in their hibernation. The Phoenix didn't even realise there were Spiritbeasts sleeping there.

Blackbeard found out about the eruption somehow (we can write that part later), took his fleet to the Island and started collecting Spiritbeast bodyparts to sell. Among those bodyparts were the shells of those Earth Tortoises, undamaged. An undamaged shell is almost unheard, killing a Spiritbeast is usually quite violent.
A plan formed in his mind. Blackbeard and his men took the shells to the shore and into the water. They didn't float. Why would they, earth isn't something waterproof after all. Luckily he did have the skull of an Underwater Panther that he hadn't been able to sell yet. Using that skull as some sort of totem or catalyst he used his magic to make the shells waterproof.
After that it was just a matter of collecting the other bodyparts of the Earth Tortoises, selling them and using the money to build a city inside the shells.

I'm seeing this city as shells turned upside down so they float in the water. Buildings are anchored to the sides of the shells and bridges span across. Rainwater is gathered at the bottom of the shell. The dirt and other items that have been dropped get filtered out and the water gets sent up to be used. Cleaning the water is probably a very prestigious job because it's so important and because of all the stuff you can find in the dirt.
Docks float next to the shell, goods are brought down into the shell by a pulley system and other goods get brought back up. Towers have been built on the edges to serve as lookout and to send out signals.
There's a whole shell that consists of brothels

This combines your idea, Squish's love for the turtle and makes Blackbeard's Island a bit more rooted in the lore of the setting.
Oh, and Blackbeard could name his city 'Jasconius', he probably heard about the legend and the name sounds kinda nice.

Edit 2: I'm working my way through The Caribbean right now, Steckie. Great stuff so far; it's HUGE!

I know, i typed the bloody thing

[Mith]

So the cities are in bowls, or are they built on the stomach of the shell (the bottom plate), with the underneath dedicated to the water sanitation system?

[Steckie]

So the cities are in bowls, or are they built on the stomach of the shell (the bottom plate), with the underneath dedicated to the water sanitation system?

If it's up to me, they're in the bowls. That way there are buildings anchored to the walls, making for a very distinctive look. There's probably an edge where the stomach used to be that's wide enough to build buildings on as well, but they're mostly maritime buildings like docks, wharehouses, ship repair, lighthouses,...

Oh, and something else i thought of:
Spiritbeasts were supposed to be immortal right? If you kill one, it just builds a new body and starts his life again. Sometimes it takes revenge on the one that killed it's previous body.
So what if Blackbeard, in order to keep his city afloat, needs to regularly renew the spell to make the shells waterproof and for that he needs a new Underwater Panther skull. So what he does is use divination to see where the Underwater Panther is whose skull he used to cast the Original spell. Then he hunts down that Underwater Panther, kills it and takes it's skull again.
He does this because he doesn't want to piss off any more Underwater Panthers, pissing off one is risky enough as it is. The result of this is that there's one Underwater Panther roaming Vespuccia who is EXTREMELY angry at Blackbeard and doing whatever he can to escape his hunters while trying to kill him. And that Underwater Panther is ready to kill everybody that comes from Blackbeard's city.
The plothooks for this almost write themselves....

[Mith]

I would need to see a sketch for the cities personally to get my head around the idea. Not that I think that it is a bad one, but All I can think is that "The Netherlands' Low Country has enough problems, and it's not a buoyant island."

[Admiral Squish]

Hey, guys and gals. It's been much too long since I chimed in, sorry about that.

System
So, more or less, the consensus seems to be we should do what we can to get to use pathfinder as the base. The tricky bit is that we actually have to make contact with somebody from either Paizo or an established third-party publisher to figure out what's usable and what we would have to change. And in order to make aforementioned contact, we want to be prepared, to polish up the stuff we have and make it look like the sort of thing that these people would like to spend time and, possibly, money on. so, that's going to have to wait until, at the very least, my brother returns from his holiday vacation out-of-town and we can sit down and figure out a game plan.

Blackbeard
I don't know about the floating shell idea, honestly. An earth tortoise's shell is made of highly purified metal, it would likely be extremely heavy. Waterproofing wouldn't be the concern, it would be an issue of weight. Secondly, a earth tortoise is colossal-sized, which is pretty similar in scale to some larger European ships, but it would take dozens of them to make anything resembling an island in scope.
I think the coral-coated manatee idea would work just fine, honestly, it's unique, it's interesting, it's got the surface area that would be needed, and we don't even have to come out and say it's a manatee or address specific concerns relating to its diet or lifestyle until we get into the details on the Caribbean.

Chosen
One of the reasons I've been so slow to reply in the thread is I kind felt it's been way too long since I did any mechanical work for crossroads, what with the writin' and stuff. So, I wanted to come back triumphant with some serious progress on something.
Partially successful on that front. I've heavily reworked the base structures of the class, and I've made some significant progress on spells and such.
I am somewhat stalled on the spells, though. I was originally considering making the total spells known lower and combining abilities of a similar nature into one spell. Say, instead of light and darkness being separate spells, there would be one spell that lets you control the light level in a given area. Then I started thinking that in most of the legends I find, it's really more about areas that the given chosen one has power over. So, now I'm considering something more like 'domains', where you select a domain and as you grow you unlock the powers in the domain. So, you'd pick health, and you'd get abilities that heal and cure sickness, and abilities that damage or inflict illness too. Sorta like, you'd be given authority over a certain category of things, and could manipulate those things however you wanted. But THAT clashes with my usual design philosophy of giving players more freedom rather than less.
So, I'm kinda stuck.

Rituals
The other big thing I've been working on is ritual magic. Sort of a way for lower-level common casters in villages and such to have access to some of the more powerful effects that would be needed to make the world work.
The basic idea is a spellcaster with a minimum level equal to the spell level can lead a ritual to create that spell effect. They need 'mana' equal to the spell level squared, and they can get one mana from normal participants each day, with magically talented participants providing more mana. So, if you want to make a 2nd level spell, you'd need 4 manam which wouldn't be too difficult. For a 9th level spell, you'd need 81 mana, which might be more of a challenge. I was also going to work out some rules regarding sacrifices, both monetary and blood.

[Mith]

Chosen
One of the reasons I've been so slow to reply in the thread is I kind felt it's been way too long since I did any mechanical work for crossroads, what with the writin' and stuff. So, I wanted to come back triumphant with some serious progress on something.
Partially successful on that front. I've heavily reworked the base structures of the class, and I've made some significant progress on spells and such.
I am somewhat stalled on the spells, though. I was originally considering making the total spells known lower and combining abilities of a similar nature into one spell. Say, instead of light and darkness being separate spells, there would be one spell that lets you control the light level in a given area. Then I started thinking that in most of the legends I find, it's really more about areas that the given chosen one has power over. So, now I'm considering something more like 'domains', where you select a domain and as you grow you unlock the powers in the domain. So, you'd pick health, and you'd get abilities that heal and cure sickness, and abilities that damage or inflict illness too. Sorta like, you'd be given authority over a certain category of things, and could manipulate those things however you wanted. But THAT clashes with my usual design philosophy of giving players more freedom rather than less.
So, I'm kinda stuck.

Rituals
The other big thing I've been working on is ritual magic. Sort of a way for lower-level common casters in villages and such to have access to some of the more powerful effects that would be needed to make the world work.
The basic idea is a spellcaster with a minimum level equal to the spell level can lead a ritual to create that spell effect. They need 'mana' equal to the spell level squared, and they can get one mana from normal participants each day, with magically talented participants providing more mana. So, if you want to make a 2nd level spell, you'd need 4 manam which wouldn't be too difficult. For a 9th level spell, you'd need 81 mana, which might be more of a challenge. I was also going to work out some rules regarding sacrifices, both monetary and blood.

The Chosen abilities are really a call back (to me at least) to 1E D&D, since the Neutral Characters could choose to use either side of the spell effect (Inflict/Cure, Curse/Bless, etc.), so I do not see the problem. I could look at the spell progression with the 1E clerics to get an idea that might help your problem, but I do not think there is a problem, per se. It's just different way of playing the caster.

As for the ritual, a neat way of doing it could be that the physical components of a ritual are connected to the theme of the spell and if a patron is invoked, a theme for the patron. Example, a craft deity ritual to make a stronger weapon would consume lesser examples of the object being crafted. Perhaps metals could be linked to alchemy and used to invoke other ideas (tin = electrical properties, since tin was connected to Zeus. A lightening struck tree would work for non-metallic crafting)

A neat idea could be that only so many people can be in a ritual at one time (7,8,9,13, some mystical number), and thus limits the use of rituals. I think 9 would be a good limit, with casters having the square of their spell level for mana to spend on a ritual, and the lead caster of the ritual having to spend one mana to conduct the ritual. This means that 9 9th level casters would bring 80 mana to the table, having to find one mana to make up.

[Citrakayah]

Coatl ruins might not be accessible by humanoids. If humanoids were a sort of underclass, then it would make sense for coatls to make inner sanctums or something similar out of thick stone, with small holes that coatls could slither through, but humans couldn't get through easily.

Also, would nagual be a separate player race?

[Admiral Squish]

Chosen
It's not a problem with the spells, it's more a concern about locking the player into a handful of domains, rather than my usual design style of allowing the players all kinds of options.
I do think it fits the material but I'm concerned it's going to be too confining. Perhaps I could just start the player with their calling's domain and one other, then allow them to pick up two or three more throughout the course of leveling up. Lets them change direction a little bit as they level.

Oh, also, work on the chosen has made me realize a gap in the spirit categories: We have Beast, Wood, and Ancestor... but what about the spirits of non-animal, non-human, non-plant creatures? Aberrations, dragons, magical beasts, and such. I think they would work fine as a fourth category of life spirits, but I can't seem to think of a name for the group as a whole.

Rituals
I do think that, thematically, rituals should require relevant material focuses, components, and such, but I'm not sure if they should be specified in the ritual details, unless we're talking about specific, non-spell rituals that are from one culture on another. Perhaps there should be a base cost for peromring a ritual, though, to discourage abuse. Say, 100 VP x spell level squared?

I dunno about a maximum number, I like the freedom of being able to work a ritual with either a handful of powerful co-conspirators or a throng of the faithful. I was gonna say that magically-able participants could contribute mana = caster level each day. Also, that arcane rituals require participants to have some capacity to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, and divine rituals require the participants to share the ritual leader's faith.

Coatl
Hmm. I could certainly imagine structures like that. Probably would only be a few, very important rooms like that, though, and considering the time frame, it's possible they would be breached due to natural wear.

Nagual
I was considering a nagual race at one point, but at the time we had the spirit-born (which were just beast-spirits) and it seemed redundant to have two animal-based races. Then I considered going with Tonal, instead. But then we already had Coatl, and I didn't think two mesoamerican races was all that valid, either. Then I tried to generalize it into a Totemic race, humans born with a natural connection to spirits. Then I tried to roll the idea into the Chosen...
Though, in my latest take on the Chosen, they don't have the big trait from totemic anymore. Perhaps I could step back into that.

The basic idea was that you had an animal spirit companion, which I was basing off the duskblade ACF 'shadow companion'. It can't affect the real world, it can't (normally) attack, flank, or otherwise interact with the mortal world. But the spirit companion has a couple of traits, abilities and bonuses that they can either actively use, passively grant to all creatures in an aura, or passively grant to themselves and the totemic. Relatively minor bonuses and abilities, for the most part, but there were also some ideas about allowing the totem spirit to 'possess' you to do a wild shape/lycanthrope thing, or possess your animal companion or familiar to apply their traits and mental abilities to the creature and offer the spirit a little more freedom.

[Citrakayah]

Chosen
"Monsters," maybe?

Nagual
I like that. They might even manifest as animal companions for those who get them, but the notion of merging with their spirit companions for brief periods is one I really like.

Kind of reminds me of the summoner, actually.

[Mith]

I think they would work fine as a fourth category of life spirits, but I can't seem to think of a name for the group as a whole.

How about "Mythic"?

as for the domains, what's the status on the seven categories that was suggested a while ago that kind of generalized the different aspects of faith? If you put various spells in those categories with overlap, it could work out. My understanding of the concept of the Chosen is that they are picked for a specific task, so that a bit of a limitation would be expected in that case.

[Steckie]

I haven't been able to do any work on the setting these last couple of days, three kids with a nasty cold will do that. Especially once those three creatures of evil gave that cold to me as well They're feeling better now, so once the holidays are over i should find time to get some work done again.

Chosen

I like the spell combination thing you mentioned, it's very flexible and it's different.

For example let's say 'temperature'.
At first you start out with something like endure elements. Then you branch out into warm and cold. Warm branches out into other spells like say fireball, flaming sphere, flame Arrow, burning hands,.... But it also branches out into ways to empower those temperature spells. Get strong enough in those branches and you reach a point where you can combine the power of several branches. For example a spell that uses the imbalance between heat and cold to easily break through a wall.
If you make enough branches there's more than enough choice for players.
It's also different than a domain, a domain gives you one power and several spells you need to take at the appropriate level.
Ooh, maybe make this branch-thing similar to the Spirals of the Link system? That would tie the class really into the setting.

Rituals

I like it, i think i suggested something similar during one of the Skype meetings, but that was about divination. I suggested changing the way divination works so that you use your culture's way of predicting the future (tarot cards, reading palms, astrology,...) to do divination spells.
This is kinda the same thing, you use something that helps you cast the spell and you need to do certain things to help you achieve this goal. Like say, pray with a rosary or do the sundance.

Spirits

Kryptos spirits? Kryptos means hidden in Greek.
Stole it from the word Cryptozoology or the word Cryptid. This may not fit because we're working with a LOT of non-European cultures.

[Admiral Squish]

Spirits:
Hmm...
'Monsters' is a little vague.
'Mythic' might work, but I'm not sold yet.
'Kryptos' doesn't seem quite right, these aren't hidden creatures, they're just magical.
I considered 'unnatural' but that doesn't really do it, either, does it?

...Do fey have souls? Or are they, like, outsiders of the material world?

EDIT: Was not supposed to post that so fast...

Nagual/Totemic
Well, adding them in is certainly an option. Does anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

Chosen
The generalized aspects of faith thing is for priests, and we're calling them 'dogma'. That's what's going to mechanically distinguish priests from one-another in the absence of domains.

Basically what I'm currently considering for the chosen class is sort of a grouping of associated class features and spells, based on a common theme. For example, say you pick 'summoning'. You get a spell that allows you to summon a permanent companion-spirit, sorta like an eidolon, with some specific traits based on your calling. You'd also get spells to damage/banish summoned creatures, empower your own summon, and similar, and you'd get access to boons that relate to the summoned creature.
It's kinda hard to explain what I'm taking about... Examples work better. This is a very rough version, there would be much more detail and possibly more boons and Xs at each level.

Spoiler: Example

Show

Summoning
The chosen has the power to summon a spirit ally from the spirit world to aid them in battle.

Boons
Boon of the War Summon Your summoned creatures gain a bonus equal to your blessing to attack rolls, damage rolls, and natural armor.

Least
Summon: (companion/eidolon/familiar stuffs)

Minor
Share Boon You can share the benefits of a boon with your summoned ally.

Lesser
Banish Summoned creature within 60 feet must make a will save or disappear as though the duration of their summon effect expired. If the target successfully saves, they cannot be banished in this way for 24 hours. If this X is used against a creature immune to the banishment effect, they may make a will save or take 1d8 points of damage per blessing.

Greater
Call Army You can summon a horde of summoned allies. (Reduces blessing value in proportion to increased number)

Major
Fusion You can fuse with your summoned ally. (deets)

Somewhat related: I still don't have a name for chosen spell-substitutes. Invocations? Mystic Powers? Pacts? Spirit something?

I do like the idea of the spiral/tree thing, steckie. I might do something like that with warlocks when I get around to rejiggerin', it would make their abilities feel a little more organic, like they learn how to apply their magic in more specific ways at they develop and practice. But it doesn't quite fit the chosen, which are given their powers from an external source, rather than learning and developing them themselves.

Rituals
Well, the spells would stay the same, the rituals would be a way to access more powerful magic than you normally could create independently. Perhaps, however, some spells could be converted into ritual-only use?
I imagine rituals would be heavily utilized by any group that had a strong dependence on magical abilities, to maximize the effectiveness of lower-level casters. Incan divination, cahokian ironwood, hisatsinom spider-weaving...

[Admiral Squish]

Skype
It's the last weekend of the month, of the year in fact, so it's time once more to sound the call of skype! This is gonna be a big one.
I'm making a new year's resolution to get this game playable, and we have a lot to talk about if we're gonna make that happen. We've gotta figure out exactly what we need to have done, what needs to be redone, and the time frame available for doing so. I plan to celebrate the third anniversary of this project with a fully-fledged game, and in order to make that happen, I'm going to need support from all of you.

[Steckie]

This saturday right? I've got a New Year's party on saturday, but depending on how things go i might get back on time to join or i might be a bit late.
I would love to join for this call though, sounds like it's going to be interesting.

[Steckie]

Doublepost, but i need to ask a question:
How would you all feel about making Tobago the Nexus of the Caribbean Spiral? I've been stuck trying to find a place for the Nexus, but the only place i can reliably fit into the story is Tobago.
It's neutral ground, it's an Island that was fought over intensively, historically it chaned hands 33 times. With all that fighting over the Island going on, it would make sense for the Knights to try to stop that fighting by making it into neutral territory. And Spain, France and Britain would sooner see a prized Nexus in the hands of 'stupid natives' than in the hands of one of those other nations.
Those three nations would want to have free access to the Nexus (they still need to pay for other costs) and probably some sort of ambassador that makes sure the terms of the neutrality are kept.
Tobago is an interesting place, adding a Nexus will only make it more interesting.


There's also one other concern i'd like to discuss: the inquisition is too evil as it is.
They have the potential to become an interesting force, but at the moment they're mostly there to hunt magical creatures and oppose the Knights. They could use a bit more, something that takes them out of 'evil' and puts them a bit more towards 'neutral'.
I have some ideas for this, and for the rest of Christianity, but sadly the forum rules stand in the way.
If we have some time left on the Skype call, can we discuss this as well?
That is, if i manage to join the call on time....

[Admiral Squish]

Skype
We could hold the call on Sunday if that's a more viable option. I have to double-check what the plans are for this weekend, anyways.
I could definitely see adding the inquisition to the list of topics to discuss during the skype call.

Tobago
Hmm... my only concern is that it's rather far south, right off the coast of south america, in fact. I think most nexuses should be somewhat more centrally located, don't you think? And also, we should probably come up with exactly how many spirals we want there to be in the long run.
In pondering this query, an idea occurred to me. Rather than arbitrarily dividing the map into five regions, what if the spirals were the justification? We cover the map in five (six?) spirals, one in each cardinal direction and one in the center (possibly one in the southwest, between the Sierra Nevada and the Rockies). I'm imagining something like a weather map, each spiral laid out as a normal spiral, but squished and distorted around natural terrain features like mountains and rivers, the lines closer together in some places and more spread out in others, and the lines flattened where they contact another spiral, as though they applied force to each other.

[Mith]

There's also one other concern i'd like to discuss: the inquisition is too evil as it is.

While I agree with you, I have a hard time with the idea of rendering the Inquisition Neutral, but that is more of a personal viewpoint rather than agreeing for the sake of a setting, so I will try my best.

What if the Inquisition was designed as a more internal security force of the HRCC (Are we allowed to use that title, or is The Church the PC way to do it on these boards?) So while the various Knight forces were to protect the Faithful from External threats, the Inquisition was designed to primarily counter internal Corruption that would weaken Mother Church. They soon expand when they gain a Knightly Order of the Pure Fire (Ordo Purus Ignis? That might not be the right translation), which starts as them being the beacon of light, and then some cases go horribly, horribly wrong . This can fit with original Church doctrine was to punish the accusers of Witchcraft instead of the supposed practitioners, since they were focused on doing away with false beliefs. But in time, for what ever reason, Inquisition Doctrine shifts to targeting magic users and creatures, perhaps in an attempt to do away with the many false beliefs that tempt mankind away from the True Path. So they are more just a heavily Lawful order that at times got too focused on the "purify the unholy" and less on the "Faith, Hope, Love". Think of the some the Sapphire Guard that stepped out of line.

[Admiral Squish]

Skype:
Turns out there's a belated holiday thing on Saturday anyways, so Sunday is looking more practical.

Inquisition
I think re-framing them as the church's 'internal affairs' would go a long way toward de-evilizing the inquisition.
However, I think that they will always be at least a little evil to the players by virtue of their methods. I think, however, we could justify that, too. We justified human sacrifice, after all. What I would suggest is making there be a good reason for their actions, not just paranoia. There is tangible evil out there, eager to corrupt and possess those whose faith falters, and it's an insidious threat that must be rooted out. A conspiracy of extra-planar infiltrators. Maybe those with arcane powers ARE somehow more vulnerable to its influence, it's not just correllation?

[BRC]

we're giving it serious evil points just by calling it the Inquisition, and I don't mind having them as an antagonistic force. We've got the Knights to be the good side of the Church.

[Admiral Squish]

Inquisition
True, but we've been pretty good thus far about not portraying any singular group as a purely evil force. Some may be jerks, some may be aggressive, some may do a lot of evil things, but none of them are just wholly, unredeemably evil.

Other stuff
Backing up a half step, I'd really like some feedback on the ideas put forth previously.
How do we want to handle fey, from a metaphysical perspective? Are they just a different kind of mortals, are they a part of the material plane like outsiders are part of the spirit world, do they have sous, and if they do, what do those souls do when they die?
Do we want to give a Totemic race a shot, or do we have enough/too many races as it stands?
What do you guys think of the domain idea? Should I work down that path or step back and return to normal spells?

[Pokonic]

Inquisition
True, but we've been pretty good thus far about not portraying any singular group as a purely evil force. Some may be jerks, some may be aggressive, some may do a lot of evil things, but none of them are just wholly, unredeemably evil.

To be fair, no matter how you spin them, they are still the Inquisition. They would probably be on the greyish side of whatever morality system one would use, especially given their purpose.

How do we want to handle fey, from a metaphysical perspective? Are they just a different kind of mortals, are they a part of the material plane like outsiders are part of the spirit world, do they have sous, and if they do, what do those souls do when they die?

I'd say that they're one step removed from whatever counts as the spirit world, in a sense. They're native outsiders, in essence, tied to the lands or concepts they are connected to. No souls, because they're mostly spiritual entities themselves that have equal footing in the material world.

Do we want to give a Totemic race a shot, or do we have enough/too many races as it stands?

I'm thinking prestige class, personally. There's enough 'humans that turn into animal' entities that they could probably be consolidated into a single umbrella term. Those humanoid shapeshifters that are currently stated, though, still have a place; it would just be noted that it's entirely possible that they aren't actually unique races, but more like general groupings of shapeshifters with similar powers that function like minor organizations in themselves.

On that note, what ever happened to the eagle/jaguar warrior prestige classes? I thought the basics of those were stated up already, but I can't find them.