Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XXVII

[heavyfuel]

Q 393 - B

Bandwagoning on torrasque666's question. If I have a template, do I get to keep it after using Shapechange?

[Curmudgeon]

A 393 - B

You (the spellcaster with a template) don't get to keep that template after casting Shapechange, because there is no "after casting Shapechange" for you; the spell fails when you attempt it instead.

You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
...
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

Following the embedded spell references, we get to the crux of the issue: You can change into yourself with Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange, except with the restriction that you cannot change into a form with a template. Consequently, if your original form has a template, it is impossible for both statements in Alter Self to be true; the spell fails because those incompatible requirements in the spell description cannot be made to conform.

Spell Failure

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

Note that planning to take only non-templated forms throughout the duration of Shapechange and planning to let the spell expire rather than turn back into yourself doesn't change anything; the check on conforming conditions is made at casting time based on spell characteristics, not caster intentions.

[OMG PONIES]

A 393 dispute: Ask your DM. Unlike polymorph or alter self, shapechange allows you to "assume the form of any single nonunique creature" (citation below) within criteria laid out by the text of the spell. Whether or not a templated creature is "unique" is dependant upon the template in question and, ultimately, left to DM discretion.

A 393-B dispute: Yes. Only Alter Self contains the language about taking the form of yourself; polymorph and shapechange each provide specific, different exceptions to the rules governing alter self. Thus, a templated spellcaster can cast shapechange and/or polymorph without risk of spell failure. Once the spell expires or is dismissed, you revert to your original templated form.

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature...

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature...

Emphasis mine in both cases.

Since shapechange only allows you to assume nonunique forms and polymorph specifies that the subject is changed into another form of living creature, you can't shapechange or polymorph into yourself (as "yourself" is unique and is not another form of living creature, but the same as your normal form). Therefore, we have no internal conflict within the rules of these spells and they function as normal regardless of whether the caster has a template. Absent any specific rule stating that you lose the template, you're back to normal after the spell ends. For you, "normal" means "templated."

Regarding Alter Self, while the language about changing into yourself is confusing to start with, it's the only wrinkle in the spell. You would be able to cast Alter Self as a templated caster and take the form of a non-templated creature until the spell expires or is dismissed. The SRD and Rules Compendium say this about Spell Failure:

If you cast a spell in conditions when the characteristics and limitations of the spell can’t be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted

Within the scope of our question, the limitations of the spell wouldn't be able to conform with the conditions when a templated caster attempted to take the form of himself or herself. Since the characteristics and limitations of Alter Self can be made to conform with the conditions simply by not choosing to assume the form of yourself, the casting does not fail as long as you choose a different, non-templated form within the other guidelines laid out by the text of Alter Self.

[Treme]

Q 394

Simple charger build question - spirit lion totem for pounce, mounted, valorous lance, spirited charge, ...., iterative attacks. Basically a load of charge multipliers.

Does the extra damage count on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. attacks for that round or is it just the first attack in the set that gets the charge bonus?

I cant find anywhere that says it doesnt (although it kinda seems weird with a lance to get the bonus on subsequent hits) so my first place to ask is always here :)

[Andezzar]

A 394

A Valorous weapon doubles the damage "when used in a charge" (UE p. 54 f.). That does not restrict its usage to the first attack of a charge with pounce. A lance or the spirited charge feat do not have such a restriction either:

A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

Whether getting bonus damage on several attacks with a lance makes sense is beyond the scope of this thread.

[Curmudgeon]

Re: A 393 & A 393-B dispute

Since shapechange only allows you to assume nonunique forms and polymorph specifies that the subject is changed into another form of living creature, you can't shapechange or polymorph into yourself (as "yourself" is unique and is not another form of living creature, but the same as your normal form).

unique
-adjective

1. existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript.

In D&D the Terrasque is unique:

The legendary tarrasque—fortunately, only one exists—is possibly the most dreaded monster of all

Monster Manual talks about methods of improving non-unique base creatures to make other unique monsters (see CHAPTER 4: IMPROVING MONSTERS). However, a D&D character is not unique; its race, abilities, classes, and all other game characteristics are available to other characters, and two or more identical characters can be created simply by replicating the steps. (See the spells Clone and Ice Assassin for further evidence that a character's form is nonunique.) As for Polymorph's restriction to "another" form, that simply means that Shapechange can't be used to assume the same form as the one the spellcaster is already in (from form A to form A). Changing from A to B and then back to A is two changes, each to another form, and thus the ability to change into yourself is maintained in Shapechange.

My answers stand.

A 394 additional

With the Valorous weapon enhancement (Unapproachable East, pages 54-55) the weapon deals double damage on a charge. Power Attack, STR bonus, and other characteristics of the weapon's wielder rather than the weapon are not multiplied by this weapon property.

[Andezzar]

Q 395

a) If Curmudgeon's addendum to A 394 is true, what other abilities double the weapon damage only? Isn't the note about weird multiplication superfluous?

b) What would the double weapon damage be for a +1 wounding longsword? 2d8+2 -2 CON?

Q 396

a) Can undead be recycled? I.e. can destroyed undead be raised again?

b) Can this recycling be prevented?

[Curmudgeon]

A 396 a) Maybe (dubious).

Some shenanigans with a Thought Bottle (Complete Arcane, page 150) might accomplish this. If the Undead is destroyed after using the Experience option of a Thought Bottle to save their state, a True Resurrection spell will bring the destroyed Undead back to what they were before their original death.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

Next, they need to become Undead again, through whatever means (such as the Necropolitan template). Finally, the Thought Bottle would be used to restore any lost levels.

Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even restoration can’t undo (including levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user’s experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim.

A 396 b)

Destroy the Thought Bottle after the creature is dead.

[torrasque666]

Q 397: Is there a limit to how many grafts a creature can have? Namely in respect to arms, and would the same graft multiple times confer additional bonuses?

[Andezzar]

Re: A 396

What I meant was can you use animate dead, create undead or similar abilities on the remains of a destroyed corporeal undead creature. With part B I was looking for ways to prevent this.

[Venger]

Q 398

What height does a cone-shaped effect start at? is it the midpoint of your square, the top, or the bottom?

A) if you're larger than medium, where does it fall?
B) if for example you are huge and launch a 10ft cone, would it fail to hit a diminuitive foe right in front of you?

[Curmudgeon]

A 398

Area

Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

You can pick any grid intersection of any cube you occupy if the spell starts at you. That grid intersection could be at the floor, or 5' above it, or higher for a larger creature. Cones have the same shape vertically as horizontally; see the pictures starting on page 305 of Dungeon Master's Guide. Starting at the right intersection at floor level would ensure that a Diminutive creature was included in the area.

[qwertyu63]

Q 396

a) Can undead be recycled? I.e. can destroyed undead be raised again?

b) Can this recycling be prevented?

A: Yes, look up Revive Undead in the Spell Compendium.

B: Yes, destroy the body (even then, True Res would still work).

Q399:
Can someone with the feat Vow of Poverty gain the advantage of Magical Locations (without losing their vow, that is)?

[Andezzar]

A: Yes, look up Revive Undead in the Spell Compendium.

That would require the caster to know that the corpse in question was undead previously and for the soul of that corpse to be willing to return

B: Yes, destroy the body (even then, True Res would still work).

(True) Resrurrection would make the living creature the undead was before becoming undead.

What I was looking for was a method to 1. make undead, 2. have those undead be destroyed, 3. use the remains* to make new undead.

*i did not use the word corpse because I am not sure the corporeal remains of undead are functionally the same as a corpse of a previously living creature.

[Curmudgeon]

A 399 Some.

Some magical locations have Vow-breaking requirements. For example, the Planar Touchstone feat, needed to access the magical locations in Planar Handbook, requires an item worth at least 250 gp. On the other hand, the magical locations in Complete Mage come with associated gold piece values, but actual treasure is usually not included. If you satisfy the requirements for those locations (usually spellcasting and Knowledge checks) you may receive the location benefits without loss of Exalted abilities.

[OMG PONIES]

Re: A393 & A393-B dispute correction To clarify, shapechange refers to nonunique creatures, not creatures of a nonunique form. The argument that D&D characters are not unique creatures is specious. Stating that two elven wizards with all the same feats/class features/skills/etc. are not unique creatures is akin to stating that you and I are not unique because we are both humans who both know how to use the Internet and play D&D. However, since this thread is about RAW please consider the following rules citations:

The rules for creating your character provide a common ground for players, but you can tweak the rules to make your character unique.

According to the PHB, it's entirely possible to make your character a unique creature. This passage goes on to say that substantive changes must be approved by the DM, so an argument could be crafted that a "by the book" character is nonunique, and the only unique ones are those with DM-approved changes. This did not seem to resolve the issue for me, so I sought additional citations.

Players can easily create unique and interesting characters using these variants.

Again, we're looking at variants that must be approved by the DM, but we're looking at something more jermaine to the conversation. Two elven wizards who both take the same specialist wizard variant listed in Unearthed Arcana would still be considered "unique and interesting characters." But is there any RAW citation to prove that even "as written" classes are unique creatures?

You can't recreate all of the standard character classes with these generic versions, particularly classes with complicated, unique, or specialized features such as bardic music, a wizard's familiar, or a druid's wild shape ability.

Bardic music, familiars, and wild shape are considered unique features. Thus, to prove that D&D characters are non-unique creatures who happen to have unique features would require a specific citation. I'd like to refer back to the specific citation you presented to solidify my claim that D&D characters are unique creatures:

...there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster's Hit Dice, or by adding a template to the monster.

From the very passage you cited in opposition to the idea of characters being unique, we see that the act of adding a character class to a typical monster manual entry (like an elf, for instance) makes her unique. More specific to the scope of the original question, adding a template to a monster creates a unique monster. Thus, a templated spellcaster is a unique creature.

If you wish to refute this claim, please provide a RAW citation that specifically states D&D characters are nonunique.

Spoiler: Re Clone & Ice Assassin

Show

Clone creates a new body for the creature's soul to inhabit upon death. From the text of the spell:

...treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead...

Thus, the clone is not to be treated as a new creature, but the return of the original unique creature.

Regarding Ice Assassin:

An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature

Since it is not, in fact, a perfect duplicate (as it's made of ice) the original creature remains unique.

[Zaq]

Q 400 Can an Archivist learn domain spells as their two free spells at level-up, or must those be added from scrolls?

[NecessaryWeevil]

Q 401

If a Crusader receives 50 damage from a single blow, and diverts 15 points into his delayed damage pool (can't remember the ability name atm), does he still have to save vs. massive damage?

[Curmudgeon]

A 400

The Archivist can freely select only spells from the Cleric spell list. Those are the spells available to all Clerics.

A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity.
...
Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power.

Domain spells are only available to a Cleric if it's on the list of a domain the Cleric has selected. Because the Archivist has no ability to select any domains, the Archivist thus has no capability to add the spells from those domain lists to the Cleric spells freely available to them. A scroll of a domain-only spell would be required.

A 401 Yes.

Massive Damage: If you ever sustain damage so massive that a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Special effects tied to an attack, such as energy drain, stun, and so forth, still affect you as normal, and their effects are not delayed by this ability.

The required Massive Damage save is a special effect tied to a single attack dealing 50+ points, and therefore it affects you as normal and is not delayed by the Steely Resolve damage pool.

[The Viscount]

A 398Cones have the same shape vertically as horizontally; see the pictures starting on page 305 of Dungeon Master's Guide.

Obviously logic dictates this, but do you have a text citation for this? I've been trying to find one myself.

[DarkSonic1337]

Q 402
What happens if an ongoing spell effect requires some other temporary effect to make you a valid target, and that effect no longer applies (type changes, dispel effects, expiration, etc)?

For example, let's say a dragon casts polymorph on itself to turn into a humanoid (like an elf or something). I then cast charm person on it. When the polymorph spell expires, what happens to the charm person on it?

[Curmudgeon]

A 402 Nothing happens.

Spell requirements are only checked at casting time. If the spell was valid then, it continues for the duration.

[Rasman]

Q403 What would the Outcast Rating of a Dhampir be in the Ravenloft setting be?

[Jowgen]

A398 follow up

Obviously logic dictates this, but do you have a text citation for this? I've been trying to find one myself.

Rules Comepndium p. 135, hope this works for you:

Cone: A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners

[Andezzar]

Unfortunately that citation says the exact opposite. It calls for a two-dimensional shape instead of a three-dimensional one as a cone suggests. A quarter-circle is two-dimensional regardless what direction you designate.

[Duke of Urrel]

A 398 Commentary

Unfortunately that citation says the exact opposite. It calls for a two-dimensional shape instead of a three-dimensional one as a cone suggests. A quarter-circle is two-dimensional regardless what direction you designate.

Strictly speaking, a quarter-circle can only be two-dimensional. However, if we want to be strict about it, an area can only two-dimensional, too. (Strictly speaking, a three-dimensional form must be called a "space" or a "volume.") Nonetheless, it should be clear from many examples of Area spells that we need to interpret the word "area" in a loose rather than strict sense of the word. Otherwise, we would have to say that the Fireball spell, as an Area spell, could only fill a two-dimensional circle, rather than a three-dimensional sphere.

Moreover, and closer to the point, a cone cannot be other than three dimensional, particularly if we interpret this word strictly.

[heavyfuel]

Q 404

Can you use DMM when casting from a Wand?

What about a scroll?

[Andezzar]

A 404

No, you are not casting spells from either item. you are using spell trigger or spell completion items.

[Kazudo]

A404

Additional evidence:

The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. A spellcaster can’t use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.

And Divine Metamagic doesn't offer a "specific trumps general" clause, so it doesn't work either.

[Andezzar]

Re: A 398 commentary

Area is vague and can be two-dimensional as well as three-dimensional, at least colloquially. I have never heard the word circle be used for a three-dimensional shape.
The problem is that the templates in the PHB are two-dimensional and designating a corner of a square and direction of the cone does not unambiguously tell you where the vertical part of the cone is supposed to be. The height of the vertically placed cone template (DMG p. 307) can still be varied by 10 ft.