Worf vs Solo

[Traab]

Why wouldn't he be brought along? What size crew does the Defiant require? I did mention that Solo was allowed to call on his underworld contacts. Why wouldn't Worf be allowed the same? If it becomes clear that the Falcon can cut-and-run, or just never drops out of hyperspace in mid-flight to begin with, is Worf too honorable to ask for help from an old friend?

Odo would certainly make it easier to work their way through the criminal element and gain insight into Han's movements

But I don't like the casual dismissal of Chewie, though. Size, strength, weight, and reach most certainly matter in HtH combat. That's why modern sporting events have weight classes. Size always matters unless the little guy is a LOT more skillful than the big guy. Are we really prepared to say that the 200 year old professional soldier is that incompetent? Especially one that was practically born to jungle warfare?

If the fight goes to ground, I like the Wookie's odds.

I think we basically claimed physically they would be a good match for each other. Worf too is bigger stronger and heavier than a human. I admit to not knowing the exact difference but its there. On an unrelated note, can someone tell me the name of the ds9 episode where worf is captured and forced to fight jemhadar one on one, and proceeds to kick so much ass the jem hadar themselves respect him?

[Kislath]

That was "By Inferno's Light."

Questions:
--Can the sensors on a Star Wars ship detect something coming toward them at a speed faster than light?
--Can the Millennium Falcon have any hope of seeing a quantum torpedo heading right for it at warp speed, or have any hope of escape?
--Has Han Solo ever heard of the Picard Maneuver?

[Fragenstein]

That was "By Inferno's Light."

Questions:
--Can the sensors on a Star Wars ship detect something coming toward them at a speed faster than light?
--Can the Millennium Falcon have any hope of seeing a quantum torpedo heading right for it at warp speed, or have any hope of escape?
--Has Han Solo ever heard of the Picard Maneuver?

Assuming they don't drop out of hyperspace until reaching port with their cargo, the first two might not apply. Also, is a quantum torpedo used to subdue? Unless Worf has dead-or-alive orders, I don't think his opening salvo will be meant to kill.

The third? Solo, in universe, was a skilled pilot even before receiving military training. He then spent the rest of his life getting better at piloting. I'm going to guess he's familiar with just about every way to handle a starfight, and possibly has invented more maneuvers than Picard.

[GloatingSwine]

That was "By Inferno's Light."

Questions:
--Can the sensors on a Star Wars ship detect something coming toward them at a speed faster than light?

Unknown, nothing in Hyperspace moves as slowly as a Star Trek ship.

--Can the Millennium Falcon have any hope of seeing a quantum torpedo heading right for it at warp speed, or have any hope of escape?

Irrelevant, a quantum torpedo is significantly less powerful, by orders of magnitude, than weapons the Falcon is demonstrated to be able to survive.

--Has Han Solo ever heard of the Picard Maneuver?

Irrelevant. The few seconds advantage gained by appearing to be in two places at once only matter if you have weapons capable of engaging the target. The Defiant does not.

Really, stop trying, even based on only movie canon the Defiant attempting to engage even a jumped up smuggling freighter like the Falcon is like you trying to take on an APC with a nerf gun. Worf can try all the clever tactics he likes, he's still only got a nerf gun.

[The Glyphstone]

The Star Trek values are also a couple of orders of magnitude higher than what's ever been shown on screen, but everyone accepts them because it makes little difference :P

You mean Star Wars values, right? The Star Trek manual, reportedly, was actually used as a sort of tech bible for the first four of its movies. It's Incredible Cross-Sections that gets the flack for being wildly disparate to visual movie evidence.

A bomb that can make a star nova is a pretty impressive thing.

Sure, though I think most people think of a cannon/beam/missile when they hear 'weapon', for all that a missile is just a bomb with a rocket strapped to the back.

[GloatingSwine]

You mean Star Wars values, right? The Star Trek manual, reportedly, was actually used as a sort of tech bible for the first four of its movies. It's Incredible Cross-Sections that gets the flack for being wildly disparate to visual movie evidence.

That too. Though the ICS books were also used as a reference in episodes 2 and 3.

But the Star Trek technical manuals also give figures well above what's ever shown to happen on screen. Between them the TNG and DS9 ones give torpedoes of that era up to 1.5kg antimatter warhead and 78% peak efficiency, for a maximum energy yield just under 50 megatons (actually around 48) but the effects shown on screen whenever they are used, plus their effects on easily predictable things like asteroids, demonstrate far lower yield than that, even when using maximum yield would seem to be most sensible. In Pegasus it's stated that the Enterprise would have to use "almost all" of its complement of 275 torpedoes to destroy an asteroid around 5km wide, which based on its volume and likely composition would take roughly 125Mt to completely pulverise and around 30 to shatter. Which puts the actual demonstrable yield of a photon torpedo roughly in the 100-400 kiloton range.

I'm fairly sure Hutts fart louder than that.

[Traab]

Thanks, im a fan of that episode.

[grolim]

A bomb that can make a star nova is a pretty impressive thing.

Not to mention he had it with him on a shuttle. Given how easy it is to blow stars up in Star Trek, if they went evil nova bombs like in Andromeda are simple for them. It is harder to stabilize a sun, as seen in the episode with the race that suicides at 60. Plus Enterprise shields can go into the corona of a star I think. Not sure how long they can stay there. And in Voyager pilot did they not say that the 2 quantum torps they used on the array ripped a hole in subspace?

No way Worf could or would do it, but I think a pack of star destroyers would have a hard time surviving a Genesis torpedo near them. Cloaked mines existed in DS9, so cloaked torpedoes should be fairly easy.


>Except none of those things are actually true? I mean really, have you seen the shows or movies? Star Trek ships are invariably slower and less mobile than their Star Wars counterparts (as well as being smaller and less well armed).

Yes I have, and in the movies and the series blowing up a sun was not in any way some kind of super feat. Sure ship on ship ST loses, but they DO have the ability to take out whole star systems with single shots just they will not do it. No special superweapon needed.


>I've never heard anyone claim the Federation could destroy a star with sheer firepower.

Then you need to watch the shows. Not sheer firepower, a single or duo of torpedoes.

[Mando Knight]

Given how easy it is to blow stars up in Star Trek, if they went evil nova bombs like in Andromeda are simple for them.

They have one substance that when correctly configured in an explosive, can take out a star by exploiting its effects on nuclear fusion. The ones that made it look easy were an evil genius and a Changeling, while the Romulans had problems stabilizing the substance. Although the material is apparently quite easily bred in a standard warp core, it doesn't seem like the weapon is "simple" except for beings that are more advanced than the Federation.

Plus Enterprise shields can go into the corona of a star I think. Not sure how long they can stay there.

The Enterprise-D could, for a few minutes, and only after modifications, as seen in "Descent, Part II." The ability to do so was new at the time, since the metaphasic shield that allowed it was first seen in "Suspicions."

And in Voyager pilot did they not say that the 2 quantum torps they used on the array ripped a hole in subspace?

Tricobalt weapons, not quantum.

[grolim]

They have one substance that when correctly configured in an explosive, can take out a star by exploiting its effects on nuclear fusion. The ones that made it look easy were an evil genius and a Changeling, while the Romulans had problems stabilizing the substance. Although the material is apparently quite easily bred in a standard warp core, it doesn't seem like the weapon is "simple" except for beings that are more advanced than the Federation.
The Enterprise-D could, for a few minutes, and only after modifications, as seen in "Descent, Part II." The ability to do so was new at the time, since the metaphasic shield that allowed it was first seen in "Suspicions."
Tricobalt weapons, not quantum.

They also blew a sun up by accident trying to stabilize it. Sure it was unstable but still they play with stars far too easily. And the shield mods that allow it should be common since it happened before DS9 and Defiant was built. SW is bigger by far and a larger scale but ST advances more and faster, adapts better...for the most part.

[Mercenary Pen]

The problem with comparison, I think, is that both Star Wars and Star Trek are, at least to some degree, inconsistent in the tech level they apply due to a great many different writers with differing understandings having dabbled with both series (this is one of the things I utterly detest about multi-writer projects in science fiction).

For those in the Star Trek camp who have difficulty with the idea that a modified freighter could outfight a dedicated capital ship, I offer an alternative scenario:

Fast forward to three years after the battle of Endor, Han is now in command of the Mon Remonda a top of the line Star Cruiser- and considering that Star Wars capital ships don't tend to the have the same paucity of firepower on their flanks that their trek equivalents seem to have (seriously, phasers are supposed to be omnidirectional, but they almost always seem to engage targets in their forward or aft fire arcs) I doubt the defiant (or even the Enterprise-E) has much chance in a stand up fight.

[Kislath]

You guys are crazy. Worf would win. Eventually, Worf would win. He does not fail. He is Worf.

I think the very notion of The Falcon or even a Star Destroyer surviving a fight with the Defiant, a ship loaded up with weapons capable of tearing apart the very fabric of space, is sheer lunacy, but putting that aside, one day, Solo is going to land someplace. When that happened, he would be a sitting duck. His ship, powered down and defenseless, would be crippled with one phaser pulse. The Defiant's sensors are more than capable of spotting Solo even on a world full of humans, let alone a world full of aliens, and in the blink of an eye, Solo would be beamed to the brig.

[lord_khaine]

You guys are crazy. Worf would win. Eventually, Worf would win. He does not fail. He is Worf.

I think the very notion of The Falcon or even a Star Destroyer surviving a fight with the Defiant, a ship loaded up with weapons capable of tearing apart the very fabric of space, is sheer lunacy, but putting that aside, one day, Solo is going to land someplace. When that happened, he would be a sitting duck. His ship, powered down and defenseless, would be crippled with one phaser pulse. The Defiant's sensors are more than capable of spotting Solo even on a world full of humans, let alone a world full of aliens, and in the blink of an eye, Solo would be beamed to the brig.

I honestly cant tell if you are makign fun or not. but no...

In the scenario you describe with Worf one day beaming Solo up from some random planet Worf had already lost the contest, as he had by then failed to stop Solo from delivering his cargo, if he then turns out to afterward be a sore loser and kidnap Solo, then it still dont change the outcome.

And we have already determined that the difference in techlevel means Worf is a native in a cano trying to stop an armed freigh hauler with his bow. He would newer even get close enough to show Solo his weapons were ineffective.

[Bulldog Psion]

Star Trek technology makes a slight swipe at being advanced.

Star Wars tech is riddled with idiotically primitive stuff. Laser cannons that eject spent cartridges, lasers that only work if they look like a crossbow, interstellar space ships that apparently have gas tanks (see Obi Wan and Anakin escaping at the start of Episode III), energy bolts so slow that a guy with a laser stick can deflect them like he's playing baseball.

So, I nominate Star Trek to win on the basis of its pretend-tech being marginally less dumb.

[GloatingSwine]

So, I nominate Star Trek to win on the basis of its pretend-tech being marginally less dumb.

Neelix once nearly blew up Voyager with cheese.

Game. Set. Dumb.

[BWR]

Star Trek technology makes a slight swipe at being advanced.

Star Wars tech is riddled with idiotically primitive stuff. Laser cannons that eject spent cartridges, lasers that only work if they look like a crossbow, interstellar space ships that apparently have gas tanks (see Obi Wan and Anakin escaping at the start of Episode III), energy bolts so slow that a guy with a laser stick can deflect them like he's playing baseball.

So, I nominate Star Trek to win on the basis of its pretend-tech being marginally less dumb.

SW does without technobabble and their ship panels don't blow up if you sneeze on them.
I'm giving it to SW.

[Traab]

SW does without technobabble and their ship panels don't blow up if you sneeze on them.
I'm giving it to SW.

BWR has a good point. Remember the grand falcon escape from Hoth? Half the damn ship wasnt assembled properly, A freaking droid fell into the circuitry, and instead of a massive plasma explosion, he just got tangled up in the wires. If that had been star trek, c3po would have been melted into slag, and at least 15 eps relay conduits would have erupted into sparklers like its the 4th of july. Directly into the faces of everyone in the cockpit. I keep hoping that someday Star Trek ship builders will stop using c-4 as wire insulation, but it hasnt happened yet.

[GloatingSwine]

Command consoles are, apparently, cheaper than fuses in the 23rd century.

[Bulldog Psion]

SW does without technobabble and their ship panels don't blow up if you sneeze on them.
I'm giving it to SW.

Okay, new idea.

Pick whichever side you like better to win. They win.

If you don't like either better, assume M.A.D..

[Mando Knight]

Command consoles are, apparently, cheaper than fuses in the 23rd century.

Also bridge crew.

[Fragenstein]

Also bridge crew.

I never understood why Starfleet went over to touch-screens for all of their controls. Maybe I don't understand modern military/exploration mindsets, but it seems like a panel you can work with your eyes closed would function more efficiently.

I have a touch-screen in my car. I hate having to take my eyes off the road long enough to simply adjust the thermostat. I can only imagine what it's like during epic space combat.

Unless the tech manuals have described some sort of haptic/tactile feedback, I suppose. Wouldn't know.

But shoot, I forgot about ST sensor technology. If they could pick Solo's life readings out of a massive crowd of similar humans, then Worf would never set an ambush. He would just beam him into the brig. After all, even if he can't stop the delivery, Solo would still be a wanted criminal. Worf wouldn't walk away from that.

So that would be a big no on the isolated jungle combat scenario. Unless the jungle itself would interfere with either the transporter or sensor readings. Which I believe has happened before.

[Mando Knight]

But shoot, I forgot about ST sensor technology. If they could pick Solo's life readings out of a massive crowd of similar humans, then Worf would never set an ambush. He would just beam him into the brig. After all, even if he can't stop the delivery, Solo would still be a wanted criminal. Worf wouldn't walk away from that.

They can't identify a human by biometrics unless they already have the readings to compare them to, and picking one out of a crowd of relatively similar signs would be iffy at best. Scanning for Chewie would be easier.

[Traab]

They can't identify a human by biometrics unless they already have the readings to compare them to, and picking one out of a crowd of relatively similar signs would be iffy at best. Scanning for Chewie would be easier.

Or scanning for the falcon, then beaming out whatever leaves the ship after it lands. Anyone on board the vessel is at best an accomplice, due to the fact that he is hardly secretive of the fact that he is a smuggler. So beam up everything that moves, then beam down whatever he doesnt want to keep. Or, go at it assassins creed style. Han is wandering around Mos Eisly, one of the many hooded strangers in the area walks by him, tags him with a com device, and boom, two to beam up.

[grolim]

Neelix once nearly blew up Voyager with cheese.

Game. Set. Dumb.

So an organic item being affected by a new and to it unknown bacteria is dumb? Can't be dumber than midichlorians. Or dumber than not covering an exhaust vent that leads directly to a reactor.

[Flickerdart]

I have a touch-screen in my car. I hate having to take my eyes off the road long enough to simply adjust the thermostat. I can only imagine what it's like during epic space combat.

On a starship's bridge, there would be one guy responsible for driving and a separate guy responsible for the thermostat.

[Mando Knight]

Or dumber than not covering an exhaust vent that leads directly to a reactor.

That's not any dumber than blocking an exhaust port so it can't perform as designed, particularly right when you're preparing to run the core at maximum output for a bit...

[Flickerdart]

That's not any dumber than blocking an exhaust port so it can't perform as designed, particularly right when you're preparing to run the core at maximum output for a bit...

Make the exhaust pipe kinked, so that a torpedo can't make it straight into the reactor? Have multiple smaller exhausts, or a grate that stops large objects but lets gas through? Place dedicated point defense/chaff systems on your station's one weakness? Just a thought.

[GloatingSwine]

So an organic item being affected by a new and to it unknown bacteria is dumb? Can't be dumber than midichlorians. Or dumber than not covering an exhaust vent that leads directly to a reactor.

I'm fairly sure that if you build a computer system which is, even at a theoretical level, capable of causing your spaceship to threaten to explode simply because of the presence of cheese somewhere in the spaceship you have done something terribly wrong somwhere.

I mean imagine if anyone caught wind of this strategic vulnerability and weaponised cheese.

The consequences do not bear thinking of.

[Fragenstein]

On a starship's bridge, there would be one guy responsible for driving and a separate guy responsible for the thermostat.

Probably the only starship job worse than being the lady who answers the phone. Dang, Kirk was lazy.

[The Glyphstone]

Also bridge crew.

Not so much bridge crew as red shirt dye.