Warhammer 40k Tabletop XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice)

[banjo1985]

Turns out that this rumour showed up tonight at GW and I remembered saying here that no such thing was happening.
Apparently, there will be new Plague Marines (no word on other Cult Troops though), and at least the Great Unclean One and Bloodthirster may be getting a new models as there are no models for Ku'Gath or Skarbrand. I didn't hear about the other Greater Daemons. Along with a Nurgle Supplement for Chaos Space Marines.

Ah, well at least it sounds like a possibility, though I remain hopeful rather than expectant. Nurgle supplement would be good, though I'm unsure what more they could do for them, other than dump Nurgle demons and cult troops into a formation of some sort.

[Cheesegear]

Okay, let's take a realistic look;

Space Wolves
Krom Dragongaze - Axe and Bolt Pistol
Wolf Guard Terminators (x5)
Grey Hunters/Blood Claws (x10)

It doesn't look like GW is shelling out for new molds, so it's entirely possible that you're just getting one Space Wolf box sprue which is enough to make ten models. It looks like you're supposed to make five and five, but, 'Who cares about the campaign?', right? Krom Dragongaze is a new model, I can totally see people's OCD triggering and buying the set just for him. But, seriously, Wolf Guard Terminators are not good and anybody who seriously plays Space Wolves already has 30-50 Grey Hunters. For people 'going halves' on the set, what you're getting is an HQ model and a box of Grey Hunters - woop-de-doo!

Orks
Grukk Face-Rippa - Power Klaw, Kombi-Rokkit and Attack Squig
Gretchin (x10) + Runtherd
Nobz (x5)
Kill Kans (x3)

Warboss is decent. Gretchin are solid. Nobz aren't. Killa Kans are super bad.
Grukk is an okay model. People playing Orks should already have Nobz and Killa Kans which are all being left on the shelf in 7th. Basically, the Orks have nothing usable in this half of the set. If you're using this half to start an Ork army, be prepared to spend a lot more money because the only thing you can really use are the Gretchin.


Like I keep saying, the only thing that matters in this set appears to be the campaign because everything else is kind of bad.

[Drasius]

So, Mech Daemons. No, seriously, hear me out.

The FAQ has made the Burning Chariot usable. It has also added the exalted flamer as a HQ choice for 50 points. Who can select a Chariot as an upgrade for 50 points. What does that mean?

Spoiler

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HQ
100 - Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
100 - Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
100 - Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
100 - Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
100 - Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

Troops
99 - 11x Horrors
99 - 11x Horrors

Heavy Support
100 - Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
100 - Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
100 - Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

998 - Total

Each flamer has 2 weapons. An 18" d3 shot Lascannon (S9 AP2) and a Torrent S5 AP3 flamer. Neither have the restriction of being a psychic power, so can't be denied either, and can be fired in overwatch, oh yes.

Yes, they have warpflame, but if any infantry survive, they deserve it (if they make their test). So, yeah.

Granted, they are AV 10 all round and have 3 hull points, but that's why they're 100 points each. Unless you want to give them greater gifts, as each one can take up to 20 points of rewards.

Also, they're skimmers, so if you really don't need to fire the flamer, you can jink for a 4+ cover, re-rolling 1's. If not, a 5++ re-rolling 1's isn't terrible though. You can also assign shots to the rider or chariot too, so you're immune to lasguns. It's also Fast, so, you know, regardless of where you deploy, you can be killing stuff on turn 2, if not turn 1.

A part of me wants to run this with the following as allies, because 7th.

Spoiler

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46 - Xenos Inquisitor, Power Armour, Ulumeanthi Plasma Syphon, Servo Skull
200 - Grey Knight Terminator Squad
255 - Storm Raven, TL Heavy bolters, Hurricane bolter sponsoons, TL Assault cannon, psybolt ammo.

501

But you'd be surprised at how much AA you can fit into 500 points. A 'Talon AND a 'Raven is easily doable, as is a pair of Vendettas (or 1 vendetta and a 3x Hydra squad). An ECPA HBC Riptide with VT + EWO and a skyray is also doable. Having said that, I'd think if you pointed 8d3 lascannons skyward, you'd clear out one flyer a turn, even if you had to snapfire.

[Requizen]

Okay, let's take a realistic look;

Space Wolves
Krom Dragongaze - Axe and Bolt Pistol
Wolf Guard Terminators (x5)
Grey Hunters/Blood Claws (x10)

It doesn't look like GW is shelling out for new molds, so it's entirely possible that you're just getting one Space Wolf box sprue which is enough to make ten models. It looks like you're supposed to make five and five, but, 'Who cares about the campaign?', right? Krom Dragongaze is a new model, I can totally see people's OCD triggering and buying the set just for him. But, seriously, Wolf Guard Terminators are not good and anybody who seriously plays Space Wolves already has 30-50 Grey Hunters. For people 'going halves' on the set, what you're getting is an HQ model and a box of Grey Hunters - woop-de-doo!

Orks
Grukk Face-Rippa - Power Klaw, Kombi-Rokkit and Attack Squig
Gretchin (x10) + Runtherd
Nobz (x5)
Kill Kans (x3)

Warboss is decent. Gretchin are solid. Nobz aren't. Killa Kans are super bad.
Grukk is an okay model. People playing Orks should already have Nobz and Killa Kans which are all being left on the shelf in 7th. Basically, the Orks have nothing usable in this half of the set. If you're using this half to start an Ork army, be prepared to spend a lot more money because the only thing you can really use are the Gretchin.


Like I keep saying, the only thing that matters in this set appears to be the campaign because everything else is kind of bad.

I was under the impression that both Wolf Guard Termies and Nobz were in the "not an auto-include but not trash" level of units, which is why I was including them as worth buying in the kit. If you just include the HQ + Troops for each, the Wolves are a small savings ($68 worth of models for $62 plus a little nicer because the HQ is a limited edition model), while the Orks are overpriced ($37 worth of models for $62, though there's no comparable Plastic Warboss at the moment).

If the Termies and Nobz are included, Wolves become really nice price point while the Orks become about even. The Kans themselves are expensive money wise and make the Orks a great price point but, like you said, not that great (though competitive viability isn't that important for the guy looking to buy, so that's not a big deal to him).

I dunno, I agree with you that they're not perfect starter sets because both sides will still need to purchase more, but I don't think they're too bad other than the Kans being pretty bad.

[thedavo]

There's also a chance that WG termies get buffed in the next (probably imminent) Space Wolves 'dex, so although they aren't great at the moment, they may get better/more useful.

[Squark]

Wolf guard terminators are... Interesting at the moment. 33 points for a terminator is pretty good. The issue is A) they get pricy very quickly, so you have to be careful with spending, and B) there are only two power weapons in the box, and not one combi-weapon, so you have to convert or scrounge to make use of their best options.

An update might do something about the former but it won't do anything about the latter. But even then, they'll still run into the honor guard issue (that is, loadouts need to be fine tuned to your metagame, which makes or breaks the unit).

[bluntpencil]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuf...IREDRAKES.html

Wow. These are as cool as the Pyroclasts, which are awesome too!

[Cheesegear]

I was under the impression that both Wolf Guard Termies and Nobz were in the "not an auto-include but not trash" level of units

Wolf guard terminators are... Interesting at the moment. 33 points for a terminator is pretty good. [...] But even then, they'll still run into the honor guard issue (that is, loadouts need to be fine tuned to your metagame, which makes or breaks the unit).

Squark is correct.

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5); x4 Combi-Meltas/Weapons, Heavy Flamer + Drop Pod - 225 Points

...Is basically the only way to build Terminators. Storm Shields are 15 Points each, whereas everyone else's Terminators get them for 5 Points - with a Thunder Hammer. The problem with Combi-Weapons on Terminators, is that you don't need Terminators to get them. From those four Terminators with Combi-Weapons, you're 'wasting' 60 Points by upgrading them to Terminators. 60 Points is another two Wolf Guard with Combi-Weapons.

The problem with Wolf Guard Terminators is regular Wolf Guard. Not so much "Teminators are bad.", but more "Why are you taking Terminators at all?"


In other news;
I don't know what I was expecting. I mean, I have Dark Vengeance. This shouldn't have been a surprise to me...The Missions of Storm Claw are found in this week's White Dwarf.

Mission 1: Grey Hunters (x5) vs. Warboss, Nobz and Gretchin.
Mission 2: Wolf Lord, Wolf Guard Terminators and Blood Claws vs. Gretchin and Kans
Mission 3: Everything vs. Everything

If Dark Vengeance is a hint, then all of those units - particularly the Nobz and Wolf Guard - will have specific campaign load-outs. So...Yeah. Looks like I wont be buying Storm Claw. Also, it doesn't look like it comes with a mini rule-book. It comes with the actual rulebook, just without the other two books that come in that crappy set. If you want the mini rule-book, it looks like you'll need to buy the re-release of Dark Vengeance - also out next week.

On the whole though, Gerantius is in this week's WD, too. So, I paid $6 for the Gerantius dataslate, which sounds about right. Which I actually am happy with since it doesn't look like a War Zone is coming out any time soon that is just going to reprint him.

In other, other news, Sanctus Reach: The Red Waaagh! comes with five more 40K-legal Formations - as well as 7th Ed. rules for Planetstrike, but you don't care about that...

Imperial Knights
Adamantine Lance: Three Knights of either type in any combination. Re-roll Ion Shields, Charge distances and inflict more Hammer of Wrath hits. Since Formations and Detachments are the same thing, there is no reason at all why players with 3 Knights shouldn't use this Formation. If you're running 'A Knight Detachment with 3 Knights', you're doing it wrong. Adamantine Lance. Find this Dataslate somehow.

Astra Militarum
The Steel Host: x1 Tank Commander, x3 Leman Russ Squads, x1 Hydra. So...Minimum 5 Leman Russes and a Hydra. Every Tank from this Formation within 12" of the Commander has Preferred Enemy. Yes please. This Formation is very, very good. Though it's unclear whether or not you can use Pask - assume 'No.' until stated otherwise.

Rampart Detachment: Platoon Command Squad and 10+ Bullgryns. Counter-Attack, Fear, Fearless. Fearless goes a long way towards making Bullgryns not awful. Still a waste of a 'Detachment slot' if your meta has put a cap on how many Detachments you can bring.

Orks
Gorkanaut Krushin' Krew: Three Gorkanauts that gain special rules the longer that the game goes on.

Mogrok's Bossboyz: x3 Big Meks, Warboss and a Weirdboy (must be ML2). One of the Big Meks may be your Warlord (Mogrok), and gains the #5 Ork Trait. Not bad. However, we're not done. Before Deployment, D3 friendly Ork units gain Acute Senses and Outflank. That's really good. But, still not done. By including this Formation in your army you gain +1 to Seize the Initiative. Really, really good.

Basically I'm looking at this thing as if it is War Zone: Sanctus Reach, except everything in it is for 40K and not for Apocalypse. So far, the story seems pretty good, too. I actually like Mogrok as the Ork Kommander.

[Renegade Paladin]

Actually, I do kind of care about a Planetstrike update. But maybe that's just me.

[Cheesegear]

Actually, I do kind of care about a Planetstrike update. But maybe that's just me.

7th Ed. rules for Planetstrike and a Leman Russ Tank Formation? ...How come you don't have it yet?

[Renegade Paladin]

Because I order through the local independent store, and GW is notoriously slow shipping to them. Also, wanted to wait and see what the hell was in it first.

And actually, until very recently I only owned three Russes. That's only gone up because someone offered to sell me some secondhand.

Edit: Also, I have no Hydras.

[LeSwordfish]

How's this look as a changed Salamanders list?

Spoiler: 1000 points salamanders

Show

HQ
Vulkan He'Stan 190

TROOPS
Tactical Squad -10 Marines 200
-flamer, multi-melta
-Combi-melta on sargeant
+Drop Pod

Tactical Squad -10 Marines 205
-Melta, multi-melta
-Combi-melta on sargeant
+Drop Pod

ELITES
Sternguard veterans 175
- Heavy Flamer x2
+ Drop Pod

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad 130
-4x Missile Launchers

Thunderfire Cannon 100

The devastators and the cannon take cover in a bolstered defence and shoot anything with objective secured that gets too close. Vulkan joins the sternguard and drops onto the enemy objective with one of the tac squads, hopefully putting two av12 objective secured vehicles within scoring distance.

To expand: fill out the sternguard to, say, nine with five combi-meltas and two heavy flamers, add more troops.

[Kir]

Does the steel host say tank commander, or leman russ commander (like the special rule). if it's the first, no pask, since he's knight commander. if it's the second, pask away. (now if only you could take pask in krieg ABG's)

[Squark]

To be fair, those termies do have power weapons. Which I guess is the issue- Wolf guard terminators are a jack of all trades unit- And the points they pay for the privelage can easily go to waste.

Edit: on the plus side with stormclaw, Krom's sprue looks to be pretty conversion friendly, so there's that.

[Cheesegear]

How's this look as a changed Salamanders list?

Me, personally, I don't like Multi-Meltas in Drop Pods. The snap shooting is a PitA, even with Twin-Linked from He'Stan. I feel like it's wasted points. If you want more Melta, bring more Meltaguns - like on those Sternguard.

Edit: on the plus side with stormclaw, Krom's sprue looks to be pretty conversion friendly, so there's that.

On the downside with Krom, AUS sold out of Storm Claw in one day. Went up for pre-order yesterday, this morning there are none left, and my local GW is only getting four where it's first come, first serve - and everyone in my meta loves Space Wolves.

[Saambell]

2 things:
What percentage of the cost of Storm Claw do you believe the Mini Rulebook is? I play SW and though I probably need the additional Grey Hunters and a chance to fix my poor Terminator build would be good, i really just want it for the mini rule book. I doubt that I can grab it in store, as there are 3 Ork players at least, and one of the staff is another Space Wolves player. My best bet is finding one of them and bartering a trade with them for the book. So, that leads me back to the question. What Ork/SW model kit is an equal trade for the book?

My second question is about the Wolf Guard Terminators. Why do you guys keep over costing your WG Terminators? Terminators can Deep Strike without a Drop Pod you know. You act like they can't. I looked through the Space Wolves codex and the only line I can find about SW Terminators not teleporting is a line saying that they mistrust the teleporting. There is no direct line saying that they can't, and something like this would normally get either a direct non-subtle line or errata. Even more interesting the only line that comments on the teleporting is lead off by a "NB:". I take that as a formatting error and it was meant to be in a box titled "Narrative Building". SO, its just Fluff that SWs don't Deep Strike their Terminators. But sure, use a Narrative Building comment as crunch.

[LCP]

Even more interesting the only line that comments on the teleporting is lead off by a "NB:". I take that as a formatting error

It means nota bene.

[Saambell]

oh. well darn. I guess I need to learn more abbreviations before guessing what an abbreviation means. I had just looked at "NB" and thought that it was "Narrative Building". That was the only NB I knew of. Still, a more direct line would have been much more appreciated. I wonder how many others took it to be "Narrative Building" and figured that it was fluff that Space Wolves don't teleport terminators. I can't be alone.

[Timberwolf]

2 things:
My second question is about the Wolf Guard Terminators. Why do you guys keep over costing your WG Terminators? Terminators can Deep Strike without a Drop Pod you know. You act like they can't. I looked through the Space Wolves codex and the only line I can find about SW Terminators not teleporting is a line saying that they mistrust the teleporting. There is no direct line saying that they can't, and something like this would normally get either a direct non-subtle line or errata. Even more interesting the only line that comments on the teleporting is lead off by a "NB:". I take that as a formatting error and it was meant to be in a box titled "Narrative Building". SO, its just Fluff that SWs don't Deep Strike their Terminators. But sure, use a Narrative Building comment as crunch.

They're over costed because of the weapons. 63 points for a Hammernator is ridiculous when I believe even for Deathwing it's a mere 50. If you look at other books, in the description of terminator armour, it says it gives the Deep Strike rule. Space Wolves do not have this in their codex so they cannot deep strike and thus require a drop pod.

[Saambell]

I only had the SW Codex on hand, and was meaning the Drop Pods when I said over costed which I had wrongly guessed were unneeded. I was not arguing the war gear, just the transport. What I took as a fluffy comment was actually the text explaining why the rule was missing.

[Squark]

Frankly, even if space wolf termies could teleport, drop pods would still be worth it for inertial guidance and drop pod assault.

[Cheesegear]

What percentage of the cost of Storm Claw do you believe the Mini Rulebook is?

That depends on how much the seller values it. The majority of Storm Claw's cost is invested in the models - and they come at a discount. So pricing the rulebook is iffy at best. Frankly, I don't think anybody should be selling it since it's smaller and more portable nature makes it even more valuable than the full size rulebook - which is around $50AUD, give or take. So, the Nobz or Terminators would be what I'd trade for it.

Terminators can Deep Strike without a Drop Pod you know. You act like they can't.

Do Space Wolves have Reserve manipulation? No.
Do Space Wolves ignore Deep Strike mishaps? No.
Do Space Wolves Scatter less when Deep Striking? No.

Certainly looks to me like Terminators can't Deep Strike without Drop Pods even if their version Terminator Armour did allow them to.
If it helps, nobody I've ever seen Deep Strikes their Codex Terminators either - it's just not a good idea. That's why Space Wolves having Drop Pods is actually good and why I always include it.

[Wardog]

I have a question about WH40 1st Edition. (I never played it, but I have a copy of the old 1989 Warhammer 40k Compendium, and out of curiosity would like to ask about some of the apparently-RAW weirdness). Is this the right thread to ask, or should I take it to another/start a new one to avoid cluttering this up with obsolete rules discussions?

[Jormengand]

If it helps, nobody I've ever seen Deep Strikes their Codex Terminators either - it's just not a good idea. That's why Space Wolves having Drop Pods is actually good and why I always include it.

I've done it once, but that was because there was a skyshield landing pad just lying around on the battlefield, in my opponent's DZ, so why not?

[Requizen]

So I was thinking that the SW half of Stormclaw + the SWBattleforce seems like a good way to start the Wolves. Both are a discount on models, plus a lot of Grey Hunters (which always seems good). What would be my next from there? Likely some Rhinos or other vehicles?

[Squark]

That should give you one pack with Meltaguns and 1-2 packs with plasmaguns (One pack can take flamers if you want- or magnetize them to use either). The command squad can use the combi-weapons from the tac squad box and making another one or two shouldn't be too hard. I'd save the banner bearer for now, since while the new Dex will most likely have banners of some kind, you should probably wait until we know exactly what banner bearers carry.

[LeSwordfish]

Me, personally, I don't like Multi-Meltas in Drop Pods. The snap shooting is a PitA, even with Twin-Linked from He'Stan. I feel like it's wasted points. If you want more Melta, bring more Meltaguns - like on those Sternguard.

I'd hesitantly disagree. These aren't a suicide squad, they're meant to stick around past the initial drop. (I'm not convinced they will, but hopefully my opponent will have enough on their plate). Sure, I lose one turn's shooting. But hopefully the advantage of having a 24" Melta weapon in my opponent's backline is a significant one.

As for Combi-meltas on the sternguard, I'm not keen on splitting the squad tactically, not in such a small game. With Vulkan, they're three heavy flamers, wounding on 2/3+ rerollable against most enemies. (Oh, you've got gretchen Going To Ground on your objective? Neat.) I don't think those two melta shots are going to add much to that squad, except stop them killing infantry for a turn. Or would you suggest I swapped the heavy flamers out and went full melta on them?

Though, the phrasing of "if you want more melta" makes me curious- what would you suggest I took instead of multi-/combi-meltas? Heavy Bolter on the flamer squad? Combi-Gravs/flamers for the Sternguard?

[bluntpencil]

I personally like Command Squads packing flamers and meltas (and maybe Storm Shields!) on each marine, instead of Sternguard. Those two guns can handle any eventuality, so the special ammo isn't really needed. Okay, you don't get the heavy flamers, but the quantity of regular flamers (either 4 or 5), with regular meltas (4 or 5), backed up by Vulkan is possibly the best thing to ever burst out of a Drop Pod.

[Squark]

Vulkan is a chapter master, though so he gets honour guard, which won't work in that list.

[bluntpencil]

Vulkan is a chapter master, though so he gets honour guard, which won't work in that list.

No, he's a Captain. ;)