OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread

[turkishproverb]

Always fun to see characters talk.

- There must be at least two female characters...
- ... who talk to each other...
- ... about something other than a man.

Some people add that the two characters must be named, though whether in the credits or in dialog alone helps show potential problems with that addition, and it should be remembered that this test does not serve as a gauge sexism, feminism, or really of anything more than exactly what it says it does. Some people tend to misinterpret it.

So...is this a hint at future merchandise?

Edit: The Bechdel Test makes me want to write something horrifyingly, eye-gougingly sexist with a 100% Bechdel Test pass rate for every scene.

I'd like action figures too.

So is Bandanna the first unambiguously gay named character in the comic?

Not quite, and do we know if she's definitely not Bi?

Spoiler: Haleo and Julelan "spoiler"

Show

Phil Rodriguez the lawyer

Huh.

[butterbow]

Nice comic. I always admired that the cast was ethnetically diverse from the beginning, and I'm happy to see, that now the diversity in female characters is broadened, too.
But I think that action figure bit isn't rigth, normally you're lucky, when you get even one figure of an female character (At least in a series aimed at an boys'/generals audience - and OOTS does look like it goes more this way.) Dolls (for a girls' series) on the other hand...

[Snails]

Somehow, knowing Bandana's mother is a blonde, make me think if Julio giving her the captain position is not simply heritage.

And yes, I want to buy action figures of OotS as well. Will we have a kickstarter for it?

Spoiler: Bechdel Test stuff, to avoid derailing

Show

The Bechdel Test is not a test to see if the artwork is favorable to gender equality. Neither a test to check its quality. Or even its association on gender issues.

Just that it has women represented. The women in question can be as bad or as good as a character than any other in the work. Or the work itself.

If the test sounds to you like a pretty easy standard to meet, it is. That's the whole point: To shock you that too many loved movies and series fail on this simple test.

I am probably annoying you for going with the derail, but I do thank you for the clarification.

So, in a nutshell, the Bechdel Test is purposefully an arguably stupid test, but it is designed to be a stupid test with the express purpose that the bar is so obviously low that it is mind-boggling how little material passes. Thus (more or less) proving that that any non-low bar asking female characters to be treated seriously would fail nearly everything in the popular culture.

[Porthos]

In regards to the title of today's strip, I gotta say, I never meta commentary I didn't like.

[DaggerPen]

Just as an aside - the Bechdel test is an intentionally low bar. The point of it is to show that it's a really low standard, and most movies still can't pass it. Heck, the example used to pass it was Alien. It's a useful test to make a point, but anyone who thinks it's the be-all end-all of gender representation tests is misusing it.

[Astrella]

Ah, rather sad to see modern-day politics invading a D&D comic. Oh well, I guess it had to happen eventually. As long as the characters don't start quoting Marx and engaging in contrived, inflammatory storylines carefully calculated to score points in contemporary political debates (topics that will be outdated in six months), we'll just have to live with it.

Modern-day politics like what? (also you do realize this is fantasy right?)

[DaggerPen]

Ah, rather sad to see modern-day politics invading a D&D comic. Oh well, I guess it had to happen eventually. As long as the characters don't start quoting Marx and engaging in contrived, inflammatory storylines carefully calculated to score points in contemporary political debates (topics that will be outdated in six months), we'll just have to live with it.

OOTS is a story built largely on parodying, deconstructing and commenting on tropes in fantasy stories. There are a variety of tropes related to gender. If anything, OOTS not poking fun at it would be weird.

[pearl jam]

In regards to the title of today's strip, I gotta say, I never meta commentary I didn't like.

Nice! :D

this message is too short

[Koo Rehtorb]

Feels a bit forced.

[Porthos]

Ah, rather sad to see modern-day politics invading a D&D comic. Oh well, I guess it had to happen eventually. As long as the characters don't start quoting Marx and engaging in contrived, inflammatory storylines carefully calculated to score points in contemporary political debates (topics that will be outdated in six months), we'll just have to live with it.

Considering what's going on in 5e right now, and Rich's approving comments therein, I'd say things like what happened into today's strip is very appropriate. And waaaaaay past due for DnD as a whole*.

Really really REALLY hope Lewis's Law doesn't have to get invoked soon, but I'm doubtful.

* Not that a lot of DnD tables didn't already address this at various points along the lines. Just commenting on the current news in regards to 5e.

[137beth]

Haley failed a sense motives roll against Bandanda. Bandanda is turning out to be a good character, though

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Thanks:-)

Kind regards

[137beth]

Ah, rather sad to see modern-day politics invading a D&D comic. Oh well, I guess it had to happen eventually. As long as the characters don't start quoting Marx and engaging in contrived, inflammatory storylines carefully calculated to score points in contemporary political debates (topics that will be outdated in six months), we'll just have to live with it.

There are no references to real-world politics in the strip, beyond what the reader invents for themselves.

[Porthos]

As for the comic proper, I loved the interaction between the Bandana and Haley. Also loved how her character was fleshed out rather quickly.

...

Alright, alright, I also loved the action figures*. Yes, I'm shallow. I admit it. There. Fine. Happy? You are? Good.

* Incuding the fact that the actual action figures were cheapish knockoffs that didn't really look all that much like Haley. Great, often overlooked touch there. And so so true.

[Amarsir]

This episode brought to you by Tumblr.

Yeah I don't know. There's nothing I dislike about this strip individually, but it feels like Writers' Hand / Very Special Episode. A couple good jokes and character development for Bandanna, both good. But it feels inorganic, like the strip had a job to do besides letting the story play out.

[Saposhiente]

But it feels inorganic, like the strip had a job to do besides letting the story play out.

There's a quote from Rich about how comics should be relevant in the real world; "otherwise, it's just pure escapism." In other words, every strip has a job to do.

[Nibelung]

I am probably annoying you for going with the derail, but I do thank you for the clarification.

So, in a nutshell, the Bechdel Test is purposefully an arguably stupid test, but it is designed to be a stupid test with the express purpose that the bar is so obviously low that it is mind-boggling how little material passes. Thus (more or less proving) that that any non-low bar asking female characters to be treated seriously would fail nearly everything in the popular culture.

To be fair, it was designed to be the setpiece for a punchline in a comic made in 1985. It was never meant to be taken seriously by itself. It is a case of a joke making you thinking about the real world.

That is exactly the reason why the test don't mean much by itself, other than shock value. Heck, current movies pass on the test about half the time. It is like a trivia you mention to people. Like, "Hey, did you know that Lord of the Rings never had two women talking to each other?"

[CWater]

Heh.. This strip was amusing.

[Porthos]

This episode brought to you by Tumblr.

A-heh. If you think this was even slightly SJW, I think you need to read more Tumblr.

...

Or not, as the case may be.*

* NOTE: There is a LOT of great stuff on Tumblr. And a lot of very needed commentary. There is also, frankly, a lot of things that prove Sturgeon knew what he was talking about way back when.** But I think that's about all I can really say without getting too close to board rules, so I'll leave my commentary at that.

** Which, come to think about it, makes it just about like every other communication platform known to humankind.

Yeah I don't know. There's nothing I dislike about this strip individually, but it feels like Writers' Hand / Very Special Episode. A couple good jokes and character development for Bandanna, both good. But it feels inorganic, like the strip had a job to do besides letting the story play out.

Really? What felt forced? I didn't see anything particualrly Very Special Episodeish here at all. If you're referring to the last panel of the comic, Rich has self-deprecating gags/comments like this. ALL. THE. TIME.

Don't make me go trawling through the comic to point them out, coz I'd have to go to sleep eventually.

[Teapot Salty]

It's been what, a day! Did you get it finished unexpectedly and ludicrously early? And it's even a longer one. Kudos for that Giant.

Little humorous banter, setting character relationship, great set up for later in the comic.

[Socksy]

I don't think that Banana has more level then 10. do Haley might win.

Hehehe, Banana. Reminds me of that one picture which got deleted where someone had swapped Bandana out with a banana in a panel :p

So is Bandanna the first unambiguously gay named character in the comic?

Could be bi or pan, or a weird Tumblr sexuality.

-snip-

Your avatar is adorable!

-

Personally, while I also found the last bit to be really forced, I didn't think it was about feminism in general but about the Giant admitting the sexist jokes were a bad idea and mocking himself and trying to show he's changed. The thing is, I found them just as funny as everything else, and I think him limiting the insults the characters used removed quite a bit of verisimilitude. Other than the forced part at the end, though, I liked it. Bandana and Haley are adorable together!

[Porthos]

Does her action figures bust seem bigger than her stick figures?

Just me?

No, no it isn't just you. I just noticed that myself. I figure it is a subtle swipe at the how some action figures can be, shall we say, not exactly representative of the person in question. I had already noted the Uncanny Valley aspect of the action figure, but that particular little Take That, I hadn't noticed until just now.

[nonamearisto]

Seems a bit forced to me, like there was a bit too much put into one page. Otherwise, I'm not complaining here. Action figure bit was funny, too.

Still, first obviously lesbian/bi named character is a pirate? A sympathetic pirate, but still...

[Lissou]

So is Bandanna the first unambiguously gay named character in the comic?

Good to see Haley and Bandana bonding. I enjoyed the action-figures gag (you managed to make them look just fake enough for them to look like action figures. I think that's spot-on, they're not just tiny lifelike versions) and the exposition about the armour change as well as the gnomes... basically the whole page seemed like it was advancing the plot, providing character development, filling gaps from the between-books shift, and it was also pretty funny.
And a complete surprise as I didn't expect a new page to begin with :)

[Kislath]

It never occurred to me that Bandana is female.

[Porthos]

OK, I'm seeing a lot of commentary here about there being 'forced' dialogue in the strip, and I gotta say after re-reading it and re-reading it some more, I just don't see it.

Anywhere.

The only thing that looks even slightly forced is Haley talking about giving leadership advice to Bandana semi-out of the blue. But you know what? I read that has Haley being a Presumptuous PC. That is, not too long ago (for her, at any rate), she went through an experience as being a leader of a party and she hated it. But since she's seen the ropes, she figured she could tell the 'newbie' (who, of course, isn't a newbie at all) what to look out for.

In other words, she's got a good case of Roy Disease (he really can be the poster child of Presumptuous PC in the party at times).

That it then (sorta) blew up in her face as the NPC told her, "Nah, it's all good" is even MORE Roy like, IMO.

So, yeah, just not seeing it at all. At most, it is showing a bit more of a character facet with Haley. That is, the character facet of Haley caring more about people around her and not just herself (and her immediate family).

[Psyren]

Ah, rather sad to see modern-day politics invading a D&D comic. Oh well, I guess it had to happen eventually. As long as the characters don't start quoting Marx and engaging in contrived, inflammatory storylines carefully calculated to score points in contemporary political debates (topics that will be outdated in six months), we'll just have to live with it.

Heaven forbid a few important social issues should intrude upon the petty escapism, right?

[The Succubus]

Today's strip gave me a much needed case of The Warm Fuzzies. ^_^

[turkishproverb]

Still, first obviously lesbian/bi named character is a pirate? A sympathetic pirate, but still...

I think you need to have a word with Haley's Latent Bisexuality.

[Trurl]

Somehow, knowing Bandana's mother is a blonde, make me think if Julio giving her the captain position is not simply heritage.

Bandana is certainly of darker complexion than Julio. So I'd rather expect the steersman to be her father than Julio.

Besides, do we know her ex?