Doctor Who Thread VI: "The Very Model of a Gallifreyan Buccaneer" [SPOILERS]

[dehro]

But you're agreeing with me! The Doctor enables others to save the day rather than doing it himself. He is an enabler, not a fixer. It's fine that there are the odd story like this but it's becoming a constant thing.

My point is that I don't have a problem with it if it's done in a believable way. If the Doctor has to behave like an idiot and not be himself or miss things he's never missed before or really go out of his way in following a wrong assumption (the worst culprit of these things is the Robots of Sherwood episode) in order for things to work out that way, then no, I don't like it either. If it's properly done and explained by the Doctor being unable to look at things from the perspective that can help solve the issue at hand, or if it's something that gives us something back on other fronts (character development or whatever else), then I'm perfectly fine with it, whether it happens once in a while or almost all the time.
We've seen most of Nu-Who Doctors going out of their way to describe humanity as a force of nature with great potential that he likes to nudge in the right direction. sometimes this goes wrong (think of that woman who killed the Silurian angry person risking total war).. sometimes it goes very well despite the Doctor making a mistake (think of the ending of Waters of Mars), sometimes he can't save them no matter what, think of the Ponds.. but more often than not, especially with his companions, he improves people around him, giving them aspirations, means to reach them and the will to be better people than they were going to be initially (think of Mickey and Martha).
in short, he's always been an enabler.

[Kato]

I intended to say what I said but I guess that you see something I don't.

"Enabler" and "fixer" at least in my dictionary are much more closely related to another topic than "repairing things" or "enabling people to repair things".


Again, you're free to have your opinion, but the thing is, whatever Moffat (really, it's true for many others but it just seems prominent with him) does people will complain about it: Clara does nothing! Clara does too much! The Doctor is too whacky! The Doctor is too serious! The Doctor spends too much time doing X! The Doctor spends not enough time doing X! It's hard to please everyone and I'm really happy I'm not a writer/producer.

[Psyren]

Putting aside my general disagreement, this sounds really, really wrong (Though, maybe intentionally)

The thing is, since NuWho EVERY (main) companion (except Martha) was somehow "teh most important!!!11!!111!!!11!" being in the universe. Bad Wolf reality warper undying love interest Rose, the most important person in the universe Doctor!Donna, Amy a little less maybe but she was still oh so precious to Eleven, possibly only because she was the first thing he saw after regenerating (I've long wondered if timelords are like new born ducklings in that regard). It's nothing new with Clara, it's just a different take on it. Of course you are free to dislike it, I'm just saying.

I think that's the point. One of the themes of NuWho (not sure if it applies to the series as a whole) is that everyone is important, and that at various points in our lives we are the most important person in the universe to somebody. Thus they all wear the title one way or another, as do b-list companions like Wilfred Mott, Craig and Sally Sparrow.

The show is making a point, just in a pretty hamfisted way as it tends to do. Not that I'd expect a great deal of subtlety from a show that drops a T-Rex in the Thames for the sole purpose of setting it on fire.

[BRC]

Personally I like it, provided they tone it back.
Before Capeldi, I never really got a sense of Clara as a character. Her previous incarnations were characters, but "modern" Clara seemed like a blank slate companion. A pretty girl with some pluck and a head full of hero worship for the doctor. We barely got to know her before she jumped in the time stream and retconned herself into the doctor's past.

Capeldi-era Clara is a much more realized character, with a much more realized role. The Doctor has always been better at solving puzzles than dealing with people, with 12 they've turned that up to 11, and made Clara really good with people. Rather than having her contribute on the Doctor's terms ( solving puzzles and doing swashbuckling stuff ) she contributes on her own terms, relating to and understanding people.

That said, they've forgotten the important part of the equation: making the Doctor smart. With 11 the show could get a little too far in with the hero worship. 12 is fallible, which I like, but so far we've had two back-to-back episodes about the Doctor being wrong. He was wrong about Robin Hood ( I could see him not having met Robin before, but not having never been close enough in time to realize there was truth behind the legend), and in this episode it's implied he's wrong about the "perfect hiders".
Or he might not be, bur even if he's right he didn't develop the theory as a result of his vast intellect and knowledge.

Clara is good. I like Clara, now we need the Doctor being brilliant again. Not in the the technobabble "watch as I use the sonic screwdriver to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" sense ( though there can be some of that). We need to see some genuine intelligence, him being the smartest, most knowledgeable, most brilliant person in the room. Let him solve a puzzle, let him be right, and let his solution make sense.

Although the next episode is a heist, so we might get some Leverage style competence porn.

[dehro]

with 12 they've turned that up to 11

that is funny

[Psyren]

He was wrong about Robin Hood ( I could see him not having met Robin before, but not having never been close enough in time to realize there was truth behind the legend),

Er, you're talking about the doctor who couldn't remember how bedrooms and mirrors worked I simply see that, not as being oblivious that Robin Hood existed, but at having another cosmic brain fart and forgetting something he already knew.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: My favorite bit of Listen

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Clara: If everyone in the universe is dead, there's nobody out there.
Twelve: That's one way of looking at it.
Clara: What's the other?
Twelve: That's a hell of a lot of ghosts.

That little exchange is surprisingly unnerving.

[Razanir]

with 12 they've turned that up to 11

Are you sure they haven't turned it up to 12?

[theNater]

Spoiler: The Pointless Gun Problem

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So, yea, if the Doctor would just carry around a Veneusain Distengeratior Blaster he could just shoot every bad guy he encounters and save the day all nice and easy. And save lots more lives too. But the Doctor does not use guns...blah, blah, blah.

And, ok, it is a kids show, so you don't want the Doctor shooting monsters, aliens, and such. This might brainwash kids into thinking that is right to shoot monsters, aliens and such. Or the kids might see the Doctor shoot the Alien from Planet Z, and then think it is OK to shoot the mail man. So the Doctor runs and defeats the alien, monster or whatever in some long drawn out wacky way. And often the Doctor uses indirect violence like when he ''reverses the polarity of the neutron flow and zaps them with a negative space blast that destroys them. So when the Doctor does mass murder with pretty CGI effects, it's OK...but to just shoot with a gun is wrong.

But, ok, say you still don't want the Doctor to have a gun. OK. But then why does he not get a stun pistol? Or any other type of non-lethal zapper? All he needs to do is go to the year 4000 and grab something. How about a ''time stopper' that freezes them in time? Or how about going to the year 9000 and getting an alignment changing ray?

And if you wanted to be all kiddy about it, the Doctor could just carry around kitten balls from the planet Kattatus that turn into real, live kittens when thrown and make even the most evil person give up and be good.


There just is no reason for the Doctor to not have a weapon....

This misses a key point about the Doctor. It's understandable, given that NuWho hasn't been very good about reminding us of it, but it's fundamental to the nature and structure of the show.

The Doctor is not a wandering hero. He is a wanderer, who performs occasional acts of heroism. He doesn't make preparations that would make saving lives easier because when he wakes up in the morning, saving lives is not on the agenda. All he's trying to do is go to a place he's never been, talk to people he's never met, and see things he's never seen.

That second part is particularly important; marking the Doctor as a tourist rather than an explorer. He's not going into the trackless wilderness, where danger lurks around every corner and being ready for self-defense is a sensible precaution. He's going to civilized areas, where there are rules and laws and going around armed is liable to get you ejected or arrested. A desire to avoid the attention of local law enforcement is a very good reason not to carry a weapon.

[LokeyITP]

While I find the flailing amusing, I'll provide a hint: Listen isn't a normal episode, it's high concept like Blink (granted Blink works a lot better watching it as a normal ep than Listen apparently does for some here). There's something else they're doing besides telling a straightforward story. Rewatch with this in mind.

I think what they tried is cool and lots of it works well, just that ending if it's meant to be taken as real in any way...

Oh, if you find season 5 awful with no redeeming features, I'll have to say good day sir :)

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Oh, if you find season 5 awful with no redeeming features, I'll have to say good day sir :)

Well...We had Rory and Amy...and that's about it.

[Psyren]

This misses a key point about the Doctor. It's understandable, given that NuWho hasn't been very good about reminding us of it, but it's fundamental to the nature and structure of the show.

The Doctor is not a wandering hero. He is a wanderer, who performs occasional acts of heroism. He doesn't make preparations that would make saving lives easier because when he wakes up in the morning, saving lives is not on the agenda. All he's trying to do is go to a place he's never been, talk to people he's never met, and see things he's never seen.

That second part is particularly important; marking the Doctor as a tourist rather than an explorer. He's not going into the trackless wilderness, where danger lurks around every corner and being ready for self-defense is a sensible precaution. He's going to civilized areas, where there are rules and laws and going around armed is liable to get you ejected or arrested. A desire to avoid the attention of local law enforcement is a very good reason not to carry a weapon.

This, though now he also has a very vague eventual sort-of-goal of getting Gallifrey back out of the pocket universe whenever he can be arsed and something brilliant occurs to him that would help him do that. Assuming this nonsense with Missy and Paradise doesn't derail him, which it almost certainly will.

[jedipotter]

It's nothing new with Clara, it's just a different take on it. Of course you are free to dislike it, I'm just saying.

This is true. I guess they feel a ''normal'' human would be boring next to the Doctor. They don't want: The Doctor Lord High God of Time and then Sally the data entry clerk from Blackpool. And it does have that nice bit of fantasy: are you a salesperson at Bloomingdales? A medical doctor? A temp worker? A kissing-gram worker? A teacher? Well, not only might you meet The Doctor someday, but you...yes, you...might be the most important person in the universe.

I guess that's why I dislike most of the nu companions apart from Martha (and Jack, however briefly he was there). I'm fine with companions being competant and interesting and able to do stuff on their own. I like that they have personalities and abilities apart from needing the Doctor to explain everything and rescue them all the time. I am not ok with the show focusing more on them and having them constantly overshadow or outperform the Doctor.

This is very hard to do for writers. And it is even worse for ''hour'' shows. There simply is not much time for a 'normal human' companion to do anything. There is not much time to do anything, that is why the Doctor so often just 'handwaves' something amazing at the last second. And that is exactly why you get the amazing powerful demi-goddess companion too. If they were not that, they would not have much to do in the show.

If it's properly done and explained by the Doctor being unable to look at things from the perspective that can help solve the issue at hand, or if it's something that gives us something back on other fronts (character development or whatever else), then I'm perfectly fine with it, whether it happens once in a while or almost all the time.

Yes! Exactly! This is the basic, classic formula for the show. The Doctor deals with the big, huge larger then life type problems: Time Loops, Armageddon, and such. But it is for the normal human companion to see things from the human perspective and solve the more basic problems. This was much easier in ClassicWho when they had like five to ten episodes to tell a story. Then the companion could always do something ''small'' in the ''background'' to advance the story.

but more often than not, especially with his companions, he improves people around him, giving them aspirations, means to reach them and the will to be better people than they were going to be initially (think of Mickey and Martha) in short, he's always been an enabler.

I'd say this is true. The Doctor has always brought out the 'best' in people. Even in ClassicWho. You could even say the Doctor has the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TouchedByVorlons power. After all you see companions all the time say ''wait, that is not right'' or ''that is not what the Doctor would do''.

[Mauve Shirt]

Well that was typical Moffat. Spooky and interesting villain with a stupid "Clara is the most specialest snowflake evar" ending.
As a mil supporter I didn't like all the hating on soldiers in this episode. I do hope she and Rupert become a thing, two teachers traveling in the TARDIS.

[Calemyr]

Well that was typical Moffat. Spooky and interesting villain with a stupid "Clara is the most specialest snowflake evar" ending.
As a mil supporter I didn't like all the hating on soldiers in this episode. I do hope she and Rupert become a thing, two teachers traveling in the TARDIS.

Hey, you gotta give Moffat credit on one thing at least, yeah? He shows rather than tells with Clara. This isn't the Doctor telling you Clara is important (like he did so often with Rose), this is Clara standing up and doing something special. Clara acts, she does things, and what she does classifies her as that "special snowflake".

Granted, the universe is being a little unfair in giving Clara all these opportunities to be special, but Clara is capitalizing on those opportunities. She is actively being awesome, and I would take a special snowflake that earns her status through her actions over a belle of the ball who is important just because the Doctor says so.

Any day of the week.

[dehro]

Well that was typical Moffat. Spooky and interesting villain with a stupid "Clara is the most specialest snowflake evar" ending.
As a mil supporter I didn't like all the hating on soldiers in this episode. I do hope she and Rupert become a thing, two teachers traveling in the TARDIS.

I haven't watched old-who, but, isn't that how the whole thing started?

[Eldan]

It was. A Science and a History teacher. And hte Doctor's granddaughter.

[Kato]

As a mil supporter I didn't like all the hating on soldiers in this episode. I do hope she and Rupert become a thing, two teachers traveling in the TARDIS.

I seem to be the only one who missed then anti-military thing... I thought Rupert was shown as a good man who just had some traumatic experiences. It's not like Doctor's Daughter which was more or less a whole episode hating on soldiers...

[Eldan]

Oh, if you find season 5 awful with no redeeming features, I'll have to say good day sir :)

Hm... looking at the episode list, no, it has redeeming features. Victory of the Daleks, Vincent and the Doctor, The Lodger... all quite good. A few more decent ones (Vampires of Venice, Hungry Earth)

I was tempted to say Season 6 had no redeeming features, but that had The Rebel Flesh and The Girl Who Waited, too. And Season 7 had The Rings of Akhaten and The Crimson Horror and Nightmare in Silver...

Okay, so every season has redeeming features.

[huttj509]

It was. A Science and a History teacher. And hte Doctor's granddaughter.

Maybe "Missy" is Susan Foreman?

[Androgeus]

Maybe "Missy" is Susan Foreman?

well that would just make the boyfriend line a bit awkward.

[Aotrs Commander]

Bit late to the party but...

In typical fashion, I thought the end of Listen's twist was really good, and elevated an otherwise creepy, but not to me especially remarkable, episode. I actually really like the fact that Clara really is being capitalised on as a companion who is actually really important to all the Doctors, because - as someone else said upthread - we're actually SEEING her be, not just be told she is. (And not in a romantic way, either; though as you may recall, I had zero problems with River Song anyway.)

But then again, I appear to be exactly the audience Moffat writes for, so what do I know...!

[Aedilred]

Hm... looking at the episode list, no, it has redeeming features. Victory of the Daleks, Vincent and the Doctor, The Lodger... all quite good. A few more decent ones (Vampires of Venice, Hungry Earth)

I don't know about anyone else, but I think The Eleventh Hour is one of the absolute best episodes of NuWho, possibly even better than Blink. In fact, I think Season 5, while there are a couple of dodgy ones, is just about the strongest season to date.

[Kato]

I was tempted to say Season 6 had no redeeming features, but that had The Rebel Flesh and The Girl Who Waited, too. And Season 7 had The Rings of Akhaten and The Crimson Horror and Nightmare in Silver...

[emphasis mine]
I must be the only one who can't stand this episode... I'll never get why people like, I think. Then again, I don't like Turn Left much either. Everyone got their quirks.

But then again, I appear to be exactly the audience Moffat writes for, so what do I know...!

Same here, but I'm surprised we'd agree on that

I don't know about anyone else, but I think The Eleventh Hour is one of the absolute best episodes of NuWho, possibly even better than Blink. In fact, I think Season 5, while there are a couple of dodgy ones, is just about the strongest season to date.

I can never pick a "strongest" or "best" thing... But I really liked Eleventh Hour and it at least is the best season premiere so far in NuWho in my opinion. And therefore the best Doctor introduction. Then again, I do like Smith a lot (and Nine and Ten didn't get that much of an intro episode)

[Dienekes]

[emphasis mine]
I must be the only one who can't stand this episode... I'll never get why people like, I think. Then again, I don't like Turn Left much either. Everyone got their quirks.

I kind of agree, it had some good bits. But that idiotic leaf thing ruined it for me.

Also, I've rewatched the series with my friend a few months ago. Season 5 and 6 are far and away my favorite, I just enjoy how the companions and 11 played off each other. Though there are still a bit of flaws. The other seasons had some great episodes, but wasted a lot on fart aliens, Rose being Rose, and a lot of disappointing resolutions. Not that season 5 and 6 are completely innocent on that last one, admittedly.

[dehro]

NEW EPISODE!!

lots of things I liked in this episode, a few I really didn't.. or at least I found unnecessary.

Spoiler: because, new episode, seriously, read only if you've watched the episode already

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he said Shuttity up!!!!
muahahahahahahahah

ok, that done, I totally called it that he was the Architect as soon as they found the first briefcase. I still went along for the ride and had about a minute of doubt when it looked like the old lady could have been it. Kind of funny that the version of himself he hates has an american accent (yes, I know, he selfloathes so it makes no sense, but it's funny nonetheless).
it still remains unexplained how the Doctor initially could get all the right info and all the right stuff in the right places.. and if he could do that, why did he bother to "re-do" it in the first place? why not liberate the teller by himself?
Why is he taking Clara along for the ride? We're at a stage where she lives her own life and he comes get her when he needs her. So to come get her, he must have had a need for her... this episode however would have worked exactly fine if she had not come along at all... in fact all he did was to put her pointlessly in danger. For once we get an episode where Clara isn't the Mary Sue of the situation and they make her presence completely irrelevant other than for the moderate banter between them at the very end, which shows the Doctor being a little jealous of her date.
one more thing that doesn't make sense: he says there were given 6 of those vials.. but that means they're 2 short by the end of it... 6 at the start, 2 are used by the accomplices.. leaving 4.. except there's six of them at the end that need transporting (4 bank robbers and 2 tellers).
one more thing that was laughable: the sudden streak of heroism on the part of the hacker guy. he's a convicted fellon, a bank robber and a hacker.. but he knows a girl for about an hour and decides to sacrifice himself for the sake of her pretty face... a bit forced???

things I liked: the pacing, the acting (this is probably the best kind of plots and roles for Capaldi as a Doctor (other than the drammatic times at which I'm sure he'll excel), the general idea and the Teller creature. The plot was both predictable (him being the architect, the guards being the accomplices) and had a few unexpected twists... namely the clone thing and the actual nature of the mission.
good entertainment allround and the high pace of the episode makes partially up for the few plotholes. Still liking last episode better, but it's nowhere near Robots of Sherwood.

[Hopeless]

The latest episode was rather good.

Time Heist has at least a couple of interesting twists and for once a decent explanation!

Unlike the Water of Mars where they ignored the obvious for a pointless death... sorry cant help thinking my idea of a weak episode seems different from what ive been reading here.

Is it perfect?

Is anything?

Anyway as i said a good episode so what did you think?

[Aotrs Commander]

[emphasis mine]
I must be the only one who can't stand this episode... I'll never get why people like, I think. Then again, I don't like Turn Left much either. Everyone got their quirks.

Nah, I wasn't too fussed about that one, either.


Hey, I actually managed to watch today's episode during the actual air-time!

Spoiler: new episode

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Not bad, not Earth-shattering...

I had my suspicions from the very start; I wasn't going to hedge my bets, but I didn't rule out the Doctor as the Architect. I was pretty convinced, though, once they hit the vault and he started shouting about how much he hated the Architect.

And, hey, note: Clara did not save the day today! Aside from doing her usual job of being the Doctor's minder. Which is good, because she can't have 'em all...!

Next week looks like it could be funny.

Spoiler: future episodes

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Though I'm conscious that Clara is supposed to be leaving at some point, and I am somehow expecting it All To Go Horribly Wrong. I have it my head - and I could well be wrong - that Pink was going to be the next companion (I have vague rumours it was going to be a chap and one brought in before he was a companion) and if that's the case, it could be messy. Or I could be mis-remembering, getting the wrong end of the stick,, wrong, insane or delusional or possibly all at once.

NEW EPISODE!!

lots of things I liked in this episode, a few I really didn't.. or at least I found unnecessary.

Spoiler: because, new episode, seriously, read only if you've watched the episode already

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one more thing that doesn't make sense: he says there were given 6 of those vials.. but that means they're 2 short by the end of it... 6 at the start, 2 are used by the accomplices.. leaving 4.. except there's six of them at the end that need transporting (4 bank robbers and 2 tellers).

Spoiler

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I assume, given as the two got back down again, they are simply not one-shot devices like the suicide buttons they thought they were to start with and can be used more than once.

[dehro]

Spoiler

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I assume, given as the two got back down again, they are simply not one-shot devices like the suicide buttons they thought they were to start with and can be used more than once.

that actually makes sense.. I should have tought of it.

[factotum]

It was okay episode. I'm beginning to think that part of the reason I've not enjoyed this season much is Capaldi's performance--his Doctor seems much darker than his predecessors, and even moments which should, by rights, be quite light-hearted seem to get dragged into dourness. Robot of Sherwood worked with that because there was plenty of comedy relief in the mini-war between the Doctor and Robin, but the others haven't had that advantage.

Clara is the wrong companion for this Doctor, I think--you need someone light to counterbalance the darkness, and Clara is far too serious herself for that to work. Someone like Donna would have worked much better.