[Dreamscarred Press] Psionics Augmented: Soulknife

[Mehangel]

I also don't agree that it should be limited to a per-day use. Unless you have it accessible enough times that the limit is functionally nonexistent (such as class level per day), it removes the ability to use the power as a both a utility ability and a combat power, which is a very bad thing. This ability requires eight levels in a class and two of your permanently-chosen blade skills. That's a very high cost for for a powerful tactical teleportation and travel tool. Cleave Space is probably fine as it is. If the main concern is overland travel, then cutting its distance slightly is the answer, not removing half of why it's a good ability and limiting its uses to the point where it's just another combat tool.

I want to agree that it should not be limited to a per-day use, but if it came down to either nixing the ability or making it per-day, I would in a heartbeat choose per-day. However, I can also see instances where long range teleportation at-will can make the gm's job difficult, which is not a good thing. Now true, this bladeskill is only available at level 8, which means that Psions can have access to this particular power one level before the soulknife, so multiple castings of the power should be prepared for. In addition, fold space being a 4th level power means that it can be enchanted into a dorje and have a considerable number of uses.

I suppose my main thing is, I want the soulknife to stay within the Tier 3-4 range, so if comparing something to wizard and showing that a Tier 3-4 class can do something better than a Tier 1 class, something is wrong. But I do not want the Cleave Space bladeskill to go away, and I am willing to sacrifice its at-will ability to be replaced with per-day or even per-encounter if necessary.

[Forrestfire]

Well, it's also not really long-range teleportation. It can be used for overland travel, but its utility is limited because it takes time to do so. This sort of ability is within the bounds of tier 3. If it was spammable teleport I'd say it's horrifically broken, but it's not. It's a slightly better dimension door on a class that needs the help to bring it up to parity with the other strong-but-not-broken classes.

If given a choice between removing it and making it a per-day thing, I'd also agree with a per-day thing being better. I think that the third option of not nerfing it, or nerfing it in a way that reduces how fast it can travel (halve the distance, maybe; it's still a strong tactical teleport and can still be used for utility, but isn't running around at a car's average road speed), would be significantly better.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hm. Cleave Space is definitely a fun concept, and it finally gives the Soulknife something to do outside of combat for once.

Dimension Door at will is really strong though. Halving the distance is an interesting idea but would need a bunch of extra words. Maybe set a 1/X rounds limit? One use per 3 rounds would be fair, IMO.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Limiting it by rounds is probably my favorite option here. Another idea would be to reduce the distance on consecutive uses over a certain period, but that would end up taking more bookkeeping than is needed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm of the idea to keep it like it is currently is, but then again I loathe to nerf things in general (yes, even casters).

[Aubreykun]

I'm having difficulty seeing how this is a problem, let alone being horribly broken. Overland movement is a useful ability to have, and escaping from a fight is something that's normally almost impossible in Pathfinder. Overland flight is slower overland, but a significantly stronger ability in combat, because it can be used to hover or otherwise stay out of range. In addition, teleport is a lot better than you seem to be making it out to be. With some prep time through scrying, teleportation is the most reliable means of transport and bypasses any hazards and problems you'd have to deal with along the way, in addition to bringing the whole party with you. Being limited-use isn't relevant when you only need one. And one level after the soulknife gets the ability to hop at an average of 50 mph, the wizard and other casters get the ability to travel 1,300 miles or more in a single standard action, without having to have ever even been to a place, with no chance of error. The abilities can't really be compared.

You're vastly overestimating how powerful overland movement is; if anything, it's a good thing that the soulknife with it can hop across the landscape at a decent clip, because it opens up more plot possibilities. It's not flight, and it's not instant teleportation, so encounters on the way can and probably will happen (and the soulknife would be alone and have to deal with it as such).



I also don't agree that it should be limited to a per-day use. Unless you have it accessible enough times that the limit is functionally nonexistent (such as class level per day), it removes the ability to use the power as a both a utility ability and a combat power, which is a very bad thing. This ability requires eight levels in a class and two of your permanently-chosen blade skills. That's a very high cost for for a powerful tactical teleportation and travel tool. Cleave Space is probably fine as it is. If the main concern is overland travel, then cutting its distance slightly is the answer, not removing half of why it's a good ability and limiting its uses to the point where it's just another combat tool.

If the GM is allowing players to simply bypass areas of exploration by allowing a caster to research enough for a teleport spell to hit a destination unerringly and safely, then of course this doesn't matter as much in that context. What this does affect is when destination areas are unknown or potentially unsafe. It allows the Soulknife to scout faster than most other forms of travel, scale mountains, cross an entire city by rooftop in a relatively short span of time, and back out if arriving near unfriendlies, without having a high level spell slot burned.
Consider that this can also be used to teleport into midair which can be combined with a relatively inexpensive feather falling ring to allow unlimited pseudo-flight, and it becomes even more silly. Suddenly the majority of terrestrial barriers are of no issue, save those that impose other environmental effects (which are also rather easy to bypass and ultimately both uncommon and visible from miles away.) Even in a dungeon, the ability to bypass any obstacle that you can see across or past in two rounds is incredibly frustrating for a GM's dungeon design workload.

Additionally, there's no risk that the soulknife teleports into an area they cannot observe as it requires line of sight. As this is not stated to be a psi-like ability, it also theoretically should function in areas where magic and/or psionics don't.

And finally, the Soulknife can bring other people with himself. Per the Fold Space power http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unl...s/f/fold-space :
"You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three manifester levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."

Additionally, I think you're overestimating and grossly misremembering the abilities of Teleport. It is a 5th level spell, which while being undeniably useful also competes with many other spells in the same slot (such as Cloudkill, Contact Other Plane, Summon Monster V, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Magic Jar, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Telekinesis...)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport It also has far, far more restrictions on it than you presented. You can bring the same number of creatures with you as fold space, and you're not even guaranteed to be anywhere close to your destination, even with "Very Familiar". Off target at 1% of 900 = 9 miles away, at 1% of 450 is still 4.5 miles away. If the Off Target is rolled, you have an equal shot of being relatively close to your target as you do being way way off target. While still blowing a 5th level spell slot, versus simply using an unlimited-shot power which is both more reliable and safer, even if it's slower.

Edit: Misread the 1300 miles part, but the rest still applies.

[ErrantX]

How does Panoply interact with metaphysical weapon? Crystalline foci?
It would be nice to make Improved Snap Shot work with Panoply.
I suppose it works with Deadly Aim, not Power Attack?

1 - It doesn't, you'd be enhancing too many individual weapons. If you used distill panoply though, that'd work.
2 - I'll make a blade skill for it. Too complicated to try to figure out the feat stuff for it when snap shot is already kind of built in.
3 - Deadly Aim for ranged attacks, and Power Attack when distilled.

Well, it's also not really long-range teleportation. It can be used for overland travel, but its utility is limited because it takes time to do so. This sort of ability is within the bounds of tier 3. If it was spammable teleport I'd say it's horrifically broken, but it's not. It's a slightly better dimension door on a class that needs the help to bring it up to parity with the other strong-but-not-broken classes.

If given a choice between removing it and making it a per-day thing, I'd also agree with a per-day thing being better. I think that the third option of not nerfing it, or nerfing it in a way that reduces how fast it can travel (halve the distance, maybe; it's still a strong tactical teleport and can still be used for utility, but isn't running around at a car's average road speed), would be significantly better.

I'm largely not in favor of nerfing it's ability to be used - there's already enough moving parts without having to keep track of uses when NOTHING else in the class has a limit of uses. I'll re-examine the range of the ability. Reduction of the range would be acceptable I suppose, though not thrilling. The problem is is that between Dimensional Slide and Fold Space there is a HUGE swath of range that isn't covered. Otherwise I'll just make up something.

-X

EDIT: Fixed Cleave Space. Added in some more language for the panoply to hopefully tighten it up so it's clearer as to off-hand attacks etc (READ AS: You can't TWF or whatever). Added a new tactic to armory.

[Mehangel]

I'm largely not in favor of nerfing it's ability to be used - there's already enough moving parts without having to keep track of uses when NOTHING else in the class has a limit of uses. I'll re-examine the range of the ability. Reduction of the range would be acceptable I suppose, though not thrilling. The problem is is that between Dimensional Slide and Fold Space there is a HUGE swath of range that isn't covered. Otherwise I'll just make up something.

I have three further ideas:

A) Make the bladeskill mimic Dimensional Slide as a swift action. (This will be a huge nerf distance wise, but At-Will close range teleportation isn't broken; should probably decrease level requirement of bladeskill [otherwise people would just spend a feat into Spheres of Power for the same thing]).

B) Do idea A), but also include a second bladeskill that requires the Dimensional Slide bladeskill. Have this bladeskill do what Cleave Space does. By including a bladeskill tax, it makes it less desirable.

C) Make a new Psionic Power, Hell call it Cleave Space, give it to the Psychic Warrior (as a 3rd level power). Make it grant Medium Range (100ft + 10ft/level) teleporation. Then have the Bladeskill mimic said power.

[Extra Anchovies]

Why does Cleave Space require Combat Slide in the first place? They have almost nothing to do with each other.

I also really miss being able to take friends with you via Cleave Space. That's a big part of what made it a useful blade skill. Self-teleportation is only really useful in combat, and even then it's kinda limiting. The range reduction is good (probably easier to understand than 1 use per 3 rounds, and requires less bookkeeping), but a scaling "take allies with you" would be nice. One ally per 3 levels would be fine.

A) Make the bladeskill mimic Dimensional Slide as a swift action. (This will be a huge nerf distance wise, but At-Will close range teleportation isn't broken; should probably decrease level requirement of bladeskill [otherwise people would just spend a feat into Spheres of Power for the same thing]).

Yes, let's buff the Soulknife's combat power without touching its noncombat utility. This will fix the problems the class currently has.

Also, the availability of Spheres of Power is not a safe assumption.

C) Make a new Psionic Power, Hell call it Cleave Space, give it to the Psychic Warrior (as a 3rd level power). Make it grant Medium Range (100ft + 10ft/level) teleporation. Then have the Bladeskill mimic said power.

Or just implement Errant's current fix, which is a lot simpler and uses a heck of a lot less words.

[Aubreykun]

EDIT: Fixed Cleave Space. Added in some more language for the panoply to hopefully tighten it up so it's clearer as to off-hand attacks etc (READ AS: You can't TWF or whatever). Added a new tactic to armory.

Looks much better. I did realize that you could also add a note making it count as hustled movement, as this would give RAW precedence that would prevent it entirely from being used as solo overland travel while still allowing the utility of unlimited movement, escape, and other such things.

Reason being that a character can't hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles without penalties. (See: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement )

This means that a Soulknife with this is can contribute the impressive maneuverability it provides while still being reliant on sticking with the party and more conventional modes of transportation - it's simply more efficient to take a horse to the next town rather than expend all that mental effort to get not quite as far. It also means that other, NPC soulknives in the GM's setting are generally bound by the same restrictions (as anything a PC can do, an NPC of the same class, level, and such can do too.)

[Sayt]

Okay, but could an Ettin TWF with their panoply

I kid. No TWFing is reasonable. Hungry Blades on it's own feels perhaps a little weak. Perhaps give it a small amount of scaling? Over-all the Panoply is looking really good.



Cleave space is no longer a spell-like Psi-like ability. DOn't think there's anything stopping this from being used in Null-psionic field ATM? (There might be something I'm missing here, can you have focus up in a NP Field?) Basically, this doesn't state whether it's Ex, Su or Psi-like.

[Mehangel]

Cleave space is no longer a spell-like Psi-like ability. DOn't think there's anything stopping this from being used in Null-psionic field ATM? (There might be something I'm missing here, can you have focus up in a NP Field?) Basically, this doesn't state whether it's Ex, Su or Psi-like.

I dont see it being a problem with being used in a Null Psionics field. Infact if i recall correctly, Bladeskills themselves are considered to be Extraordinary. That is not to say that you can always use them in Null Psionics Field, as for example, You lose Psychic Strike in a Null Psionics Field, and you might lose you mind blade aswell. But you dont lose access to bladeskills just because you are in a null psionics field.

[Forrestfire]

Not a fan of the weight restriction on it. Most armor plus, say, a backpack weighs that, let alone someone's gear. Many magic items weigh a pound or two; it adds up. Even leather armor weighs 15 pounds. A 20 pound maximum is basically saying "if you want to teleport, I hope you have vow of poverty." It's now useless for overland travel and useless for many characters as a tactical teleport. I'd probably increase it to 50 (the general standard for these things iirc) or maybe to 10 per two levels.

On some level, I wish it still brought allies too, but that's probably unbalanced. An upgraded version (takeable at 12 perhaps) that's effectively the old version would be cool to have for group travel without having the added baggage of a tier 1 caster. I really liked how the previous version gave the characters a way to meaningfully interact with the world on a level that characters of that level should be able to, even if they're martials. PCs are living legends starting at level 11, after all, even if some people dislike that scale.

[ErrantX]

I like that Forrestfire. I'll likely do that.

-X

[Prime32]

But will there be a magic item version?

[Forrestfire]

... Out of curiosity, what's the reason for this line in the Psychic Armory?

Weapons from the panoply inflict slashing or piercing damage - curiously the psychic armory is unable to create blunt weapons with this ability.

As far as I can tell, there is no reason for it, balance-wise. There is no valid reason for it that I can see, fluff-wise (because soulknives are defined by individualism, and limiting that makes zero sense). What happened there? Is there a problem with concepts like this one, thematically? Or possibly manifesting floating fists to hit people with? Spinning hammers in the air? All of these and more could be pretty cool concepts to use with it.

[ErrantX]

The mind blade is split so many times that it has to be thin bits that form the panoply. This lends itself to not being solid enough for blunt damage. Additionally, it's limiting factor to forbid blunt damage as way to keep it from being too potent - there is a DR type that they have a built in weakness to overcome. The psychic armory is potent - sacrifices need to be made to keep it from being too strong. This is a small handicap. Also that video would totally be piercing damage

-X

[Forrestfire]

Um. Are you reading the same ability I am?

The psychic armory forms a myriad of blades around her body to encircle her loosely, orbiting over and around her in shiftless patterns. These weapons are of all manner of blades, large and small, and they glimmer in and out existence as used or if ignored for too long.

So we've got blades large and small, not just thin ones. You can form two-handed weapons, which have enough size and mass behind them that if you wanted to shape them into, say, baseball-sized balls, you could likely do so. The magneto video would probably be piercing, but it was the one that came to mind. The combat style is roughly the same.

If your argument is that it can't be shaped into something that would deal bludgeoning damage, then here's an example in the official rules of something that's very small, a blade, and deals bludgeoning: the kunai. If your argument is that it can't be turned into something solid enough to do bludgeoning damage, you're contradicting yourself. A panopoly can also be turned into a large and solid enough wall to give cover, per the Psychic Fortress blade skill, and it can also be turned into shields and works just fine, per the Blade Skills listing.

In addition, bludgeoning damage, slashing damage, and piercing damage have about the same amount of DR to run into. If your concern is about balancing overcoming DR, then you should be looking at blade skill that does that, rather than unnecessarily limiting character concepts. Saying that dealing bludgeoning damage over slashing or piercing is a significant boost to power and something that should be "nerfed" as a "sacrifice to keep it from being too strong" is also a pretty terrible excuse for it. The d20pfsrd has 534 search results for "DR */bludgeoning", 465 results for piercing, and 480 results for slashing. Are you really saying that an extra 54 monsters in the entirety of pathfinder that you can fight slightly better is worth killing off a whole lot of concepts with this "sacrifice?"

[tekevil]

Overcoming DR seems to have been one of the really cool things about Soulknifes historically. I guess I have to reread the Psychic Armory, but I don't remember reading it and saying "Woah! This is way better than base Soulknife! It needs some sort of weakness...."

[Milo v3]

Question, how would you use Panoply Barrage? It requires expending your psionic focus to use, but you would have already expended your psionic focus to create the weapon your melee'ing with when you use distill panoply.

[tekevil]

Maybe it expects you to have Deep Focus?

[Milo v3]

Maybe it expects you to have Deep Focus?

Wouldn't Deep Focus be a prerequisite then?

[Nyaa]

Distill Panoply has a duration. There is also psicrystal containment. With PoW and PoWEx there are many ways to regain focus. And if nothing of that works, you can distill one round, focus with fullround (or move with psionic meditation) action and barrage the next round.

[ErrantX]

It was brought up on the Paizo board about the 1st level feat replacement with the specific feat benefits of two feats (Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot) that work only with your panoply being startlingly better than a single Bonus Feat like Point Blank Shot alone (see Soul Bolt). Looking for opinions on this. I specifically felt that this was needed at 1st level to enable them to be successful, but I may just give them Precise Shot that ignores prereqs or something. Thoughts?

-X

[Milo v3]

And if nothing of that works, you can distill one round, focus with fullround (or move with psionic meditation) action and barrage the next round.

Spending a round of the duration seems like it'd be a waste compared to just using that turn to full attack, since your getting the same number of attacks if you waste a round then barrage as you would just full attacking in both rounds.

[Nyaa]

Looking for opinions on this.

PBS and PS are not bonus feats, they are annoying feat taxes. Personally, I didn't think something like PS and IPS existed until I researched ranged builds. They all look like another way to penalize martials for not using magic.

General feedback:
Perhaps PoW spoiled me, but I feel Armory and its and general blade skills are too weak. Most blade skills are comparable to a maneuver, and you get two with Advanced Study. More, soulknife's class features are literally "you get 23% more WBL that is somewhat customizable" and 10 blade skills. Armory adds "you can be almost WIS-SAD ranged attacker from level one" and "you get 3 blade configurations simultaneously".
I'd combine, with more advanced options opening at higher levels: toolkit and platform and maybe net. Blast and grenade. Increased Range and Launch Multibolt (and make it work with Panoply). Counter and Fortress. Two of Drive, Swirling and Eruption.

Why does Distill have a duration when Telekinetic Blade and Telekinetic Bolt do not? Distill doesn't grant additional attacks by itself. I'd make foci and greater magic weapon work on Panoply because of the same reason.

Barrage, I don't know. Daily limit looks like attempt to balance broken mechanics by making it annoying to use. I'd be happy if it was removed, as it's just another way to do damage.
Edit: I was wrong calling it broken. It's available 5 levels earlier, but is much weaker (attack penalty, MAD or focused offense, power attack which you probably don't have) than Time Stands Still or Battle in Dreams. That doesn't have daily usage limit and cost only half a feat.

Panoply doesn't have iconic UBW/GoB ability - storing (analyzing is probably too powerful) real weapons and making their copies. Something like WISmod weapons which serve as additional blade kinds and configurations.

[Forrestfire]

It was brought up on the Paizo board about the 1st level feat replacement with the specific feat benefits of two feats (Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot) that work only with your panoply being startlingly better than a single Bonus Feat like Point Blank Shot alone (see Soul Bolt). Looking for opinions on this. I specifically felt that this was needed at 1st level to enable them to be successful, but I may just give them Precise Shot that ignores prereqs or something. Thoughts?

-X

I am a fan of giving both feats to them, since they're both nasty feat taxes, but if given a choice, I'd rather they get something like Precise Shot that ignores prereqs, because it's even more of a hideous feat tax than PBS is. I personally don't see a problem with giving both, since both are really bad, but necessary to have feats

[Extra Anchovies]

The only time that Point Blank Shot is actually desirable is when you have Chakra Targeting and a higher-than-normal essence cap, so it's a tax for everyone except Viziers or Gurus.

Precise Shot is a tax for everyone, though. Two taxes together is definitely worth a feat.

[PsyBomb]

Ranged is a strong fighting style, and with enough bonus feats Thrown becomes the strongest among them. That said, you've already locked out the thing that causes this (Combining Rapid Shot with TWF for ALL THE ATTACKS), so the double-bonus won't severely unbalance things.

[Sayt]

It was brought up on the Paizo board about the 1st level feat replacement with the specific feat benefits of two feats (Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot) that work only with your panoply being startlingly better than a single Bonus Feat like Point Blank Shot alone (see Soul Bolt). Looking for opinions on this. I specifically felt that this was needed at 1st level to enable them to be successful, but I may just give them Precise Shot that ignores prereqs or something. Thoughts?

-X

On one hand, Precise shot is very obviously a feat tax,while Point-Blank Shot does give you a bonus, it's a requirement for every damn archery feat in the game.

On the other hand, as it stands, Human (or more troubling, perhaps, Triaxian) Psychic Armouries start with four feats at level one, and they can then gio and pick up Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim (Though both at the same time might be a little to deep on the to-hit penalties, lets say either and Improved Initiative).

Is it cool and incredibly convienient to get both feats at level one? Definately. Is it necessary? I think I'm probably gonna come down on "No": ranged attack spam/archery is one of the strongest combat styles in Pathfinder, and the Psychic Armoury starting with a free feat they were gonna have to grab anyway seems a little... impudent, I guess?

Furthermore, there's some matter of precedent: Vanguard Commander, Steelfist Commando (kinda, there's a swap-i-de-do), and Soulbolt (Perhaps marginal, two options are condensed into one) all get their fist level bonus feat options restricted and get to choose one.