DM's Call: Prestidigitation

[blackspeeker]

Multiple castings or single?

I legitimately can't remember at this point, was about six years ago at this point. And while we have a lax group, so it was probably one casting, now that you asked I could see the argument being made where multiple uses of the spell would be needed.

[Brookshw]

I legitimately can't remember at this point, was about six years ago at this point. And while we have a lax group, so it was probably one casting, now that you asked I could see the argument being made where multiple uses of the spell would be needed.

Mostly just curiosity on my part though I have to chuckle that multiple casting of presdi could likewise have raised the temp and killed off food born pathogens. Of the irony.

Hmmm, on that note actually that would sorta duplicate purify food, probably shouldn't fly.

[Dalebert]

Hmmm, on that note actually that would sorta duplicate purify food, probably shouldn't fly.

See, this is more of what I'm talking about. I might agree with you based on it's a stretch in that particular situation but not for the idea that it's duplicating purify F&D. Making bad food taste better vs. making spoiled food actually edible--clearly not duplicating the effect of the other spell. The spell explicitly states it can alter flavors.

It may very well be a stretch that truly putrefied food seemed a-okay and people gobbled it down. Seems like it would at least look completely unappetizing if it was spoiled enough and if it normally tasted absolutely foul because it was spoiled badly enough (did you ever get a mouthful of sour milk?), then I would not allow the spell to alter a taste enough to overcome that. Food that was just moderately spoiled but wouldn't make it past a careful inspection, probably. It should be able to handle that, but certainly not "It has green stuph growing on it" or milk with curdles. Just as I would put reasonable limits on how much it can alter temperature, I'd put reasonable limits on altering flavor.

[Deadline]

I try to find ways to tell my players "yes", rather than crushing attempts at creativity. So I generally say ok to anything that doesn't duplicate another spell effect, break the world, or fall outside the bounds of what 0-level spells seem to be capable of. I can't really envision why it couldn't be used to clean a person, so sure, that works. I'm a big fan of the creativity this spell brings out in players, and have noticed that when players feel like their creative solutions are considered (within reason), they tend to be more engaged and invested in the game.

[Thiyr]

It may very well be a stretch that truly putrefied food seemed a-okay and people gobbled it down. Seems like it would at least look completely unappetizing if it was spoiled enough and if it normally tasted absolutely foul because it was spoiled badly enough (did you ever get a mouthful of sour milk?), then I would not allow the spell to alter a taste enough to overcome that. Food that was just moderately spoiled but wouldn't make it past a careful inspection, probably. It should be able to handle that, but certainly not "It has green stuph growing on it" or milk with curdles. Just as I would put reasonable limits on how much it can alter temperature, I'd put reasonable limits on altering flavor.

I wouldn't let it change how it looks, but it does call out making spoiled food taste fine explicitly. Heck, they say it can make a -stick- taste amazing.

As far as heat-purifying your food, idunno what temp stuff starts dying off at, or how long it takes, but it is capped at 140F, iirc, and I don't think that's high enough. Maybe it is, but gut reaction is no.

[Sartharina]

I can't imagine NOT using Presdigitation as a mundane insta-bath! D:

I don't see how illuminating as a candle is too far for Presdigitation - it's too weak to step on Light and Dancing Light's spell's area (Just as the 1 lb movement is too weak to step on Mage Hand's stuff).

As for flavoring spoiled stuff - I don't think it can do that. It can add flavor, but not remove flavor (A stick has very little flavor, and you can augment it with another flavor to taste good). So, you'd get mixed signals.

[Bronk]

When I heard the glowing runes part, it made me think of an old Vincent Price movie called The Raven.

I like that! Or diary Tom Riddle writing 'I am Lord Voldemort' in the air, even with the part where he rearranges the letters.

[Dalebert]

As for flavoring spoiled stuff - I don't think it can do that. It can add flavor, but not remove flavor (A stick has very little flavor, and you can augment it with another flavor to taste good). So, you'd get mixed signals.

I mostly agree, but it's viable in mild cases. It can theoretically cover up for a moderate amount of spoilage. Food can be mildly spoiled, kind of right on the border of what will cause food poisoning for some people but not all depending on their tolerance, and be seasoned enough that you don't really notice.

Countries where they use a lot of spices in their foods are also countries where their meat tends to be not quite as fresh. There's a reason for all that spice. People can actually build up a tolerance for spoiled food to a point. It's while first-worlders visit 2nd and 3rd world countries and immediately get food poisoning when all the locals are fine.

[The Random NPC]

I feel like my DM gets carried away with the no duplicating other spell effects and that means he doesn't allow the finger-flame application because of Spark. Spark sucks, btw. I feel like prestidigitation should be the convenience but nearly completely useless for combat spell and it should function as a tinderbox, basically. Not a big deal. Spark, meanwhile, is not even usable to ignite a creature you just covered in flammable oil which I think, if you're going to devote a special cantrip just for igniting things, it should be usable for that and should even have like short range.
...

Wait, Spark doesn't have a range? Like, not even within 15 feet or something? *checks* The PRD says it has a short range, maybe they changed it?

[Brookshw]

I wouldn't let it change how it looks, but it does call out making spoiled food taste fine explicitly. Heck, they say it can make a -stick- taste amazing.

As far as heat-purifying your food, idunno what temp stuff starts dying off at, or how long it takes, but it is capped at 140F, iirc, and I don't think that's high enough. Maybe it is, but gut reaction is no.

Not near a book and didn't recall the cap, but yeah, 140 isn't high enough

[Sartharina]

From my food poisoning lectures in middle school (Stupid movie will forever annoy me), 140 is merely at the top of the'danger zone' of food spoilage.

[Thiyr]

As for flavoring spoiled stuff - I don't think it can do that. It can add flavor, but not remove flavor (A stick has very little flavor, and you can augment it with another flavor to taste good). So, you'd get mixed signals.

To bring up the relevant quote,

Flavor: You give a substance a better, worse, or different flavor. You could, for example, make porridge taste like lobster bisque. You do not change the substance's quality or wholesomeness. Spoiled food remains spoiled, a poisoned drink is still deadly, and inedible material provides no nourishment -- you can make a twig taste like steak, but it remains a twig.

The real question here is how we define "removing" flavor, I'd think. But overall, I'd say that twigs don't have no flavor, just one that isn't appealing. Porridge is bland, but it's still got flavor. And that all fits under "different". You could make the greatest meal in the world taste rotten, or make five-month-old raw aardvark meat taste amazing. But I don't think it's really that big of a jump, especially given how subjective the strength of flavors can be (if nothing else just due to exposure. That whole acclimating to things you eat a lot bit).

[Psyren]

Giving spoiled or nearly-spoiled food a "better" flavor would necessarily involve it tasting less spoiled. You are not "removing" the flavor, you are changing it.

[Segev]

Change always involves both creation and destruction, at least in small amounts. And often in combination.

Thus, "changing" a flavor is always going to include removing some aspects and adding others.

[Bloodgruve]

One of my daily eternal wand charges is slated to clean off our dwarven barbarian. DM is fine with it and the party is greatful. Best gold I spent in the campaign so far.

Blood~

[Vogonjeltz]

Also, it's still a valid use, given that it is specifically called out as a potential option:

Sketch: You create a two-dimensional visual figment of whatever you desire. You can leave the image hanging in the air, in which case it is immobile, or place it on a mobile object, such as a shield. The image can be no more than 1-foot square, and it lasts a maximum of 1 hour.

Where is this from? If it's 3.0 content it's not valid for 3.5 as Prestidigitation was reprinted for 3.5, which overwrites any 3.0 additions.

For my money, this is what Prestidigitation can do:

1) A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material.
2) It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round.
3) It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material.
4) Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial.

And restrictions on it:
1) It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters.
2) The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components.
3) Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects.
4) Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

[jedipotter]

Need to pick a lock? Hover a handful of water into the lock with prestidigitation and then freeze it solid with prestidigitation while holding it there. As it expands, it will burst the lock.

I might let this work on a very crude lock, but not nothing commonly found. A farmers shack, sure, but nothing like a bank vault.

[TheCrowing1432]

Icicle:Possible but it would take a long time, if its a huge icicle its anchored to the ceiling by millions of years of being frozen, one pound of 140 degree heat isnt going to budge it anytime soon. Better off just lobbing a fireball.

Pink Shadow: I would allow this. Some of prestginations minor effects already alter physics as it is, I dont see altering the color of someones shadow as being out of its range.

Ritual Candle: If its protected against magic, wouldnt prestiginations wind be blocked since its technically created through a magical effect? This seems to be the scenarios issue, not prestidgination.

Glowing God Marks: You can change someones hair color without any sort of save, so I dont see why you couldnt do this. Obviously the god marks would be crude and inaccurate, but from a distance they might withstand scrutiny.

Darkness-on-head: Nope. Imitates Darkness as the spell.

Light like a candle: Thats fine, its actually one of the uses described in Tome and Blood.

Make something to cover torches: No, you'd have to create a pound of crude cloth or something to physically block the torches, couldnt use illusions.

Tiny flames: See Light a candle.

Intimidation aid: Id allow it.

Dry stuff out: Standard use

Cut a bowstring: Kinda iffy. A magical bow I would say no, If the bow is wielded I would say no. But if the bow was unattented, (laying around or whatever) then yes, though if you saw a bow laying around why wouldnt you just cut it with a knife, or take it.....

shoelaces:

Tie: You magically tie a firm knot (as though taking 10 with the Use Rope skill) in a thread, string, cord, rope, or cable up to 10 feet long. You can knot together two such objects if they're within 1 foot of each other.

Yep described as in Tome and Blood

iron to gold: Iron and Gold are both metals. Under the rules of prestiginations altering abilities, this is perfectly fine, however the gold is crude as per the rules of prestingiations creation rules.

freeze water:

Chill: You reduce the temperature of an object by about 40° F, but never below freezing (32° F). After an hour the object's temperature returns to normal.

Don't gotta poo: Prestidgination doesnt destroy objects so how would this work?

Hangover cure: Hmm....id let this go.

[Jowgen]

I personally am a big fan of using it to divert the attention of unsuspecting NPCs, such as guards.

The 'tinklings of etheral music' bit is fun for subtle occasion -playing flight of the bumble bee by their right ear- while the sketch function has basically limitless applications in this. It creates a up to 1-foot square large "two-dimensional visual figment of whatever you desire". Simply imagine something that is likely to grab an NPC's attention for a bit (e.g. text on wall that looks like its written in blood for a guard), and while they're preoccupied, they take a -5 penalty to spot checks, while you sneak past, steal their wallet etc.

Obviously can't be used to distract a spellcaster though, as per the spells limitations, which is fair enough since someone channelling the arcane powers of the cosmos wouldn't really bother to take note of a playboy centrefold figment that appeared to their right.

[TheCrowing1432]

I personally am a big fan of using it to divert the attention of unsuspecting NPCs, such as guards.

The 'tinklings of etheral music' bit is fun for subtle occasion -playing flight of the bumble bee by their right ear- while the sketch function has basically limitless applications in this. It creates a up to 1-foot square large "two-dimensional visual figment of whatever you desire". Simply imagine something that is likely to grab an NPC's attention for a bit (e.g. text on wall that looks like its written in blood for a guard), and while they're preoccupied, they take a -5 penalty to spot checks, while you sneak past, steal their wallet etc.

Obviously can't be used to distract a spellcaster though, as per the spells limitations, which is fair enough since someone channelling the arcane powers of the cosmos wouldn't really bother to take note of a playboy centrefold figment that appeared to their right.

.....the use you described is Ghost Sound.

[Jowgen]

.....the use you described is Ghost Sound.

Ghost sound creates as much noise as 4 humans per caster level, and can be "virtually any type of sound within the volume limit". Prestidigitation specifically calls out having "producing tinklings of ethereal music" as one of its common applications, which depending on reading equates to something like a whistle or a crappy radio. It's the exact same concept as with Mage Hand.

Also, as for my other unmentioned use of using visual figments, it's the same in regard to silent image (two-dimensional 1-foot figment vs four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level large figment).

[Sartharina]

Don't gotta poo: Prestidgination doesnt destroy objects so how would this work?

The cleaning function!

[Dr. Cliché]

The cleaning function!

Wait... are you cleaning their colon?

[backwaterj]

Wait... are you cleaning their colon?

Why not? It's an object that takes up less than a 1-foot cube!

[Brookshw]

Wait... are you cleaning their colon?

Are you sure you really want to know?

[Segev]

The self-cleaning diaper which need never be changed would be a BIG hit with parents and nannies everywhere.

[Dalebert]

Wait... are you cleaning their colon?

Bad idea. There are symbiotic organisms, flora that aid with digestion in very important ways. Wait, this might be considered an attack! Even so, there are line of sight issues here unless... I don't wanna go there.

[dascarletm]

I think the interrupting of the ritual is brilliant. Though I like the idea of people protecting against big obvious threats, but forgetting and leaving a hole for something that noone would expect. Like prestidigitation of all things. I mean who expects their enemies to try and attack them with that?

[Dalebert]

The self-cleaning diaper which need never be changed would be a BIG hit with parents and nannies everywhere.

That would also be a big hit with busy adventurers on the go, or really just about anyone wealthy enough to afford one. When you're lounging in your expansive den by the fire, smoking a premium cigar, in your comfy leather chair, who wants to get up for a poop?

Spoiler: Most interesting man in the world

Show

[dascarletm]

That would also be a big hit with busy adventurers on the go, or really just about anyone wealthy enough to afford one. When you're lounging in your expansive den by the fire, smoking a premium cigar, in your comfy leather chair, who wants to get up for a poop?

Spoiler: Most interesting man in the world

Show

You Sir Dalebert are amazing.
I think you just won my heart and soul.
Wait, I gave my heart to my wife already, so just the soul.
Oh, dang it, that's been promised to other powers...
Hmmm... Well I have some gum so here, have that.

You get gum.