Vampire Spawn killing their maker: how to?

[Jowgen]

I am currently reading up on vampires, and I'm rather displeased with how impossible it seems for a vampire spawn to kill its maker. So, I thought I'd ask the lovely people here if they've ever played/witnessed a Vampire Spawn who was able to kill its maker, or if not, if they had any good ideas on how one could go about doing so successfully (use of high-level spells discouraged).

[Crake]

Well, depending on how you read it, the command that a vampire has over it's spawn is limited to the commands they give. Unless specifically ordered not to do something, the vampire spawn is fully capable of doing it without being commanded. I run it as the vampire spawn having it's own will and consciousness unaltered, but it cannot refuse a command from it's master, rather than the vampire being spawned with complete and utter devotion to it's master like in oots. So even if the vampire master says "Do not attack or harm me in any way" a smart spawn could subvert that by acting indirectly, setting up ambushes and whatnot, but never directly attacking the master.

[Zombulian]

Well, depending on how you read it, the command that a vampire has over it's spawn is limited to the commands they give. Unless specifically ordered not to do something, the vampire spawn is fully capable of doing it without being commanded. I run it as the vampire spawn having it's own will and consciousness unaltered, but it cannot refuse a command from it's master, rather than the vampire being spawned with complete and utter devotion to it's master like in oots. So even if the vampire master says "Do not attack or harm me in any way" a smart spawn could subvert that by acting indirectly, setting up ambushes and whatnot, but never directly attacking the master.

Basically this I guess. Only way for a spawn to kill its master is if its master is exceedingly stupid. "Don't be the cause of harm to me or my destruction." Is pretty easy for anyone to think of, and it basically rules out any type - direct or indirect - subversion by the spawn.

[Jack_Simth]

As Crake said: It depends on how you play the interaction. If a spawn inherently loves it's master and wants only good for it's creator, then there won't be. However, if the control is 'forced', then only commands that are given apply - so there will be workarounds for a clever spawn... the workarounds for which can't be given in a general sense, because the workarounds depend entirely on the specific orders.

Additionally: There's the control limit on Create Spawn. If a vampire is already "full" of it's control limit, it faces a choice when making a new spawn: Free a previously-enslaved spawn, or let the newest one rise uncontrolled. A perfectly loyal minion that never needs to be forced to obey and at all times acts in accordance with it's masters wishes? That one will often be the first on the list for freeing if it comes up. Unless, of course, the maker thinks the spawn is trying to toady up for the specific purpose. Of course, once freed, well....

[Jowgen]

What exactly would one class the vampire-master's ability to command its spawn for the purposes of potentially countering it?

I would assume that something as simple as Protection from -Alignment- wouldn't quite cut it, and that Mindblank might not apply for some reason, but surely there ought to be something that can be done by/to a vampire spawn to suppress/counteract it. These are the things of the top of my head that might maybe be argued to work:

- Protection from -Alignment- (doubt it)
- Mindblank (possibly)
- Controlling the Spawn [e.g Geass) and winning some sort of check against the Master (seems workable?)
- Making the Spawn unable hear/understand the master (tricky but possibly workable?)
- Erasing the Spawn's memory of prior commands without the master's knowledge (very dependent on how it works)
- Other undead-specific magic (seems like there should be something somewhere that counters the master's hold)

[Crake]

What exactly would one class the vampire-master's ability to command its spawn for the purposes of potentially countering it?

I would assume that something as simple as Protection from -Alignment- wouldn't quite cut it, and that Mindblank might not apply for some reason, but surely there ought to be something that can be done by/to a vampire spawn to suppress/counteract it. These are the things of the top of my head that might maybe be argued to work:

- Protection from -Alignment- (doubt it)
- Mindblank (possibly)
- Controlling the Spawn [e.g Geass) and winning some sort of check against the Master (seems workable?)
- Making the Spawn unable hear/understand the master (tricky but possibly workable?)
- Erasing the Spawn's memory of prior commands without the master's knowledge (very dependent on how it works)
- Other undead-specific magic (seems like there should be something somewhere that counters the master's hold)

there is no such item by raw, it would need to be a homebrewed item of some sort. Short of having someone else control you, which doesn't really win out i'd imagine, there's nothing a spawn can do to free itself barring killing it's master in some way. That or getting resurrected so they're no longer a vampire of course.

[atemu1234]

1. Wait until master releases you.
2. Kill master.

That's the only way.

[Jack_Simth]

1. Wait until master releases you.
2. Kill master.

That's the only way.

Not the only way. There's the Multiple Mental Control Effects clause:

Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

So someone casting, say, Control Undead on a spawn could potentially convince it to attack it's master.

Likewise, the Disobedience spell (Complete Scoundrel) could maybe do the deed.

[Jowgen]

I do feel like the crux is whether one can reliably define spawn-commanding as mental control. If yes, then certain anti mental control effects might work, depending on how they're worded. For one, they'd need to be worded in a way that allows for the suppression of already-in-place control, as opposed to the establishing of new control; and they'd also need to be rather non-specific as to what types of mental control they suppress.

Another problem is what spawn-commanding would be categorized as in terms of its effect nature. Create spawn is a Su ability, so one might argue that the spawn-commanding effect resulting from it is Su in nature as well, but in that case... wouldn't a vampire master's control over their spawn fail in an anti-magic field? That does not seem right.

[atemu1234]

I do feel like the crux is whether one can reliably define spawn-commanding as mental control. If yes, then certain anti mental control effects might work, depending on how they're worded. For one, they'd need to be worded in a way that allows for the suppression of already-in-place control, as opposed to the establishing of new control; and they'd also need to be rather non-specific as to what types of mental control they suppress.

Another problem is what spawn-commanding would be categorized as in terms of its effect nature. Create spawn is a Su ability, so one might argue that the spawn-commanding effect resulting from it is Su in nature as well, but in that case... wouldn't a vampire master's control over their spawn fail in an anti-magic field? That does not seem right.

Maybe it's like a magical diplomacy check (or something like that). It's in love with it's master, even inside a magic field, but it just isn't supported by the ability?

[jiriku]

Assuming the effect is classified as mental control, disobedience is a particularly stylish way to go about it.

[Jowgen]

Assuming the effect is classified as mental control, disobedience is a particularly stylish way to go about it.

It does just feel like it should be the perfect thing, doesn't it?

Maybe it's like a magical diplomacy check (or something like that). It's in love with it's master, even inside a magic field, but it just isn't supported by the ability?

Hmmm... I've gone and checked the book of Bad Latin for some more detail on this and found two relevant sections

Spoiler: Section about Spawn Control

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Usually, even creatures of limited free will come to resent being under the control of another, but this is not true of undead spawn. The act of their creation generates a bond of service and even affection for their creators. While this command can be briefly undermined through a cleric's turning or rebuking ability, undead always return to the service of their creators if possible

Spoiler: Undead Spawn entry on Affection

Show

Calling any portion of the bond between spawn and creator "affection" maybe going too far, but spawn are definitely slavish in their attention to every detail of their creators' wishes. Spawn never hesitate to take any action commanded by their creators, even if that action leads to certain destruction.

I'll try and take this step-wise. The Vampire master uses his Su ability to create an undead. Simply than just being under regular control, as it would be with other magically created undead, this spawn is created to have an innate "bond" with their creator, instilling them with slavish "attention to every detail of their creators' wishes" and has them performing any "action commanded by the creator" without hesitation.

Turning/Rebuking are specifically called out to temporarily undo this command ability (presumably when used on the spawn), so the spawn-commanding is certainly not immune to being supressed via magical means. Anything that words exactly like Turn/Rebuke should be able to block Spawn-Control, the biggest hurdle to a Spawn killing its master.

Sadly, I am no expert on Clerics; does anyone know exactly how special/unique Turning/Rebuking are, and whether it's effects can be duplicated by other effects in a rule-identical manner, so to speak?

[jiriku]

A simple command undead spell should do the trick, although the caster would need to succeed on two rolls (saving throw + opposed Charisma check).
This reminds me of the bad end of a certain necromancer in Order of the Stick, when Redcloak exploited the face that a rebuking cleric controls the undead just like automatons.

[atemu1234]

A simple command undead spell should do the trick, although the caster would need to succeed on two rolls (saving throw + opposed Charisma check).
This reminds me of the bad end of a certain necromancer in Order of the Stick, when Redcloak exploited the face that a rebuking cleric controls the undead just like automatons.

I had a player who was leaving the group and instead of have the PC go poof, I had him reenact that at the supposed BBEG and had him be the villain. Very fun.

[Jowgen]

A simple command undead spell should do the trick, although the caster would need to succeed on two rolls (saving throw + opposed Charisma check).

Yeah, that should work. Reading up on Rebuke, it is not worded any differently in its effect than any other form of mind-rape, so while its questionable whether spawn-commanding can be blocked by things that prevent mental control -the problem being that it isn't defined in terms of type or effect-, overriding it with a different commanding ability works.

The issue with using command undead to let a Spawn try and kill their master with command undead is its limited duration though. The ideal thing would be Familial Geas, cast by a bard, but Undead are Immune to mind affecting, and you couldn't use Song of the Dead on Familial Geas, since it specicies a living creature as its target.

Anyone know any good long-term mind-rape methods that work on intelligent undead?

[atemu1234]

Anyone know any good long-term mind-rape methods that work on intelligent undead?

There was a feat or something in Libris Mortis that got around undead immunities to mind-affecting, I think.

[Dalebert]

I've had almost exactly the same question about simulacrums. The wording of the spell leaves so much open to interpretation about a simulacrum's motivations (Or if they even have any). I've been meaning to start a thread about it actually.

[Jowgen]

I think I might have thought of something, although its far from a perfect fix.

Permanence or custom item protection from Evil onto the Spawn. Permanence silence or otherwise deafen the Spawn. Make sure the spawn can't read lips. Now, if the creator tries to give the spawn a command, one of two things will happen: a) the command is non-magical and therefore dependent on the Spawn's understanding, which it can't due to silence/deafness b) the command doesn't require the spawn to understand and is therefore a mental control effect, which is blocked due to protection from evil.

If the spawn has actual affection for the master, and the effect isn't mental control, all that would be required is for someone to make the spawn believe that it's master has given it the command "kill me", which the spawn would obey "without hesitation", while unable to perceive any commands to the contrary.

Seem workable?

[Vogonjeltz]

There was a feat or something in Libris Mortis that got around undead immunities to mind-affecting, I think.

Perhaps you were thinking of Spark of Life? It's a spell, but although it touches on almost every aspect of being undead, it doesn't do mind-affecting, for some reason.

I've had almost exactly the same question about simulacrums. The wording of the spell leaves so much open to interpretation about a simulacrum's motivations (Or if they even have any). I've been meaning to start a thread about it actually.

It's made out of ice or snow and can be repaired but not healed, so based on context clues we're looking at a construct with all the features/traits therein except as noted by the spell, likely of the cold subtype.

That being said, I don't think as a construct it has motivations except as assigned to it by the creator, who has absolute control over it.

[LurKing]

Anyone know any good long-term mind-rape methods that work on intelligent undead?

I dunno if it's quite what you're looking for, but you can always Polymorph Any Object them into something else, that doesn't have the immunity. Very few creatures are immune to transmutation effects, and since PaO works on objects, it bypasses the undead immunity to Fortitude-save effects. You could just PaO them into a rock, squirrel, or generic human, depending on the situation and your DM's interpretation of the PaO durations. (Are undead animals? Does an vampire human count as 'related' to a living human? Are they larger than a breadbox?)

[Crake]

I think I might have thought of something, although its far from a perfect fix.

Permanence or custom item protection from Evil onto the Spawn. Permanence silence or otherwise deafen the Spawn. Make sure the spawn can't read lips. Now, if the creator tries to give the spawn a command, one of two things will happen: a) the command is non-magical and therefore dependent on the Spawn's understanding, which it can't due to silence/deafness b) the command doesn't require the spawn to understand and is therefore a mental control effect, which is blocked due to protection from evil.

If the spawn has actual affection for the master, and the effect isn't mental control, all that would be required is for someone to make the spawn believe that it's master has given it the command "kill me", which the spawn would obey "without hesitation", while unable to perceive any commands to the contrary.

Seem workable?

I'd be very dubious about protection from X blocking the control, because vampires would likely often take advantage of unhallowed areas, and if all their spawn were suddenly no longer under their control in an unhallowed area (the spell applies protection from good onto all affected by it) then the spell would be unintuitively useless.

I would say that Protection from X only prevents control explicitly stated as mind affecting (mental), to also prevent the aforementioned issue hampering Control Undead or cleric rebuking. Reasoning being that these arent mental control (since undead are immune to mental attacks), but rather control via the negative energy that animates the undead.

[Jowgen]

Here's a dumb questions, can intelligent undead in an unhallowed area be rebuked/controlled via turning/spells?

In either scenario, the Vampire unhallow thing does appear to lend support to the possibility that a vampire master can only command spawn when said spawn are able to perceive their master's orders; which gives a clear (albeit tricky) path to countering it. Preventing new orders from being perceived shouldn't be too tricky, but un-doing older orders (e.g. "never ever let any harm come to me") seems a trickier. :/

What methods are there to erase (at least part of) someone's memory? For spells, so long as they don't specify "living creature" as target, they should be workable via Song of the Dead metamagic.

[atemu1234]

I suppose if a Vampire Spawn really wanted to do this, he could try dominating himself and succeeding on a charisma check. Otherwise, though, it doesn't really seem possible with just the spawn.

[Jowgen]

The player for whom I was looking into this, as he is curious to play a spawn and I thought using the maser vampire as a villain might make a good plot twist, has posed me with a rather head-scratching conundrum.

Regular vampires have a +8 LA, but Libris mortis claims that "Would-be player character vampires are limited to advancing as free-willed vampire spawn". Aside from killing my entire master-vampire-villain idea, as Spawn can not be re-inslaved after becoming free-willed, this stands in direct conflict with the fact that regular Vampires have a LA, since not-PC-able monsters/templates receive no LA entry.

In addtion to this, Vampire Spawn are given a LA - entry in the monster manual (making them non-playable), but Libris Mortis (p. 32) states they have a +4 LA. So again, the MM and Libris Mortis conflicts on whether you can play them or not. Obviously, the Vampire monster class is meant to be played but... what about wanting to just play a Vampire Spawn by taking the +4 LA as opposed to the 8-level monster class? There is no Vampire spawn template AFAIK.

Looking at this clusterf*ck of vampire spawn rules, it appears like you either can't play a non-monster-class vampire spawn, or you can, but in this case you'd not have a base race. So a halfling with less than 4 HD dying at the hands/fangs of a vampire would rise as a medium creature, with none of its racial traits...

This seriously hurts my brain, and I'd very much appreciate it if anyone knew anything to clear this up please. Might post in the RAW q&a thread otherwise

[Jacob.Tyr]

Unless specifically commanded to never attempt to undermine your masters control over you, just IHS it away.

[emeraldstreak]

Iron Heart Surge; Mad Foam Rager