LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double

[Jormengand]

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Note: I don't actually have a strong opinion on this matter, due to English not being my native language and as such I don't think I fully get all connotations and such related to its words.

However, I think the example you give here doesn't quite describe the same situation. Refusing to call a single person 'he' even if they prefer that is obviously bigoted, and similarly refusing to call a single person 'it' would be, if this same person were okay with using the word for other people. But this is not the case here, but the dislike of using the word to refer to anyone.

A more accurate comparison would be a situation where a person refuses to use the word 'he' for anyone, be they cis or trans. Let's say this person insisted on calling everyone 'they'. Now, I wouldn't call this person transphobic either (perhaps genderphobic could work though) and whether they have the right to use language this way is I guess a personal opinion.

Personally, I have no particular issue with using 'it' as a pronoun for person A on their request, although I would probably not do so when a random other person B could hear, because I would fear that the latter could get the wrong idea about me if they don't know that this was A's wish. However, I would not refer to A with a gendered pronoun if they dislike it, I would ask if I can use another non gendered word, or just always refer to them by name. (A little clunky maybe, but it's the best I can do.)

I admit I don't fully understand why it matters what non gendered pronoun exactly is used. I mean, couldn't one just ask 'please don't use gendered pronouns when talking about me' and leave it up for the speaker to decide what word to use? (Especially since there is no consensus on what is the best alternative. I personally prefer singular they, but I don't mind the others.)

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My problem with the singular they is that it's usually used when you don't know what someone's gender is, but in my case, you do know: it's neither.

[golentan]

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My problem with the singular they is that it's usually used when you don't know what someone's gender is, but in my case, you do know: it's neither.

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And if I know that someone is not a he or a she, I always go to they. Not because I don't know, but because I do.

I mean, I have my personal policy that as long as it's said with love, anyone can call me anything. And I prefer the term queer for myself, and will defend that that is an appropriate word to use. But if someone is super uncomfortable with "queer" as an umbrella term, I won't insist on it.

[Lissou]

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I think personally if someone wanted to be called something I'm uncomfortable saying, I would talk with them and try to find a compromise, explaining my discomfort while trying to understand their point of view as well.

I don't think of "they" as "I don't know the person's gender". I think of it as "I am not making a point to insist on the person's gender". For instance when waiting at the airport for my husband for the first time (he was my boyfriend then) I asked "I'm waiting for someone coming from the US. Where will they be arriving?" or something along those lines. I didn't even notice doing so at first, and I know I do that on a regular basis. I often do it when the subject had already been mentioned and people know exactly who it is and what their gender is. So to me it's just "non-gendered third person" and most of the time, I use it for people who do have a gender, just, that's not relevant information at the time and not needed to clear confusion about who I'm talking about.
This being said, I understand that word use and connotations differ from one person to the next. That's the whole basis for this discussion in the first place.

Somewhat related, I had a friend who often complained about there not being a singular gender neutral pronoun, because they found it offensive to use "it" to talk about plants, who are living things. They ended up using "he" or "she" for plants alternatively to make up for that. So, knowing people who are uncomfortable using "it" for plants, I don't find it difficult to understand being uncomfortable using it for human beings. Personally I'm somewhere in between: I'll use it for plants, but not for animals.

I would be uncomfortable using the pronoun "it" about a human being because anyone who hears me would probably think I'm being an incredibly insensitive, offensive, bigoted person and I don't enjoy the idea of projecting that image. And when you talk about someone in third person, they're not around, so it's not like they would hear what pronoun you're using. I would probably still go with "they" because it does include "it" so I don't see it as refusing to use their preferred pronoun as much as using a broader version of it, like I do with most people.

If it was part of a group of friends and everyone used "it" for the person in question, though, I would probably get used to that and do it too.

But yeah, my first instinct would be to go to the person, explain my discomfort, and ask if there is some way we could compromise.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: It and They and generally mucking about

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They, being a flexible term, can mean "person of undetermined gender" or "group of people" or "person" or "entity" or "person of third gender" or "person without gender."

Quite versatile, really, and I find it suspect that it would be "usually" used for a particularly niche case when discussing people at the peripheries of our knowledge when that's conveniently a justification for an irrational hatred for a term.

As for IT, well, that was pretty well hashed-out the last time this came up, which was, what, 4 months ago?

[Jormengand]

Spoiler: It

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What is more dehumanising: using a word that is sometimes used to dehumanise in a context used to affirm someone's gender, or denying someone the same basic courtesy that you would extend to all other humans of using their pronouns?

[JNAProductions]

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While I do agree that, in general, using it is dehumanizing, if Jor prefers to be referred to as it, it'd be basic courtesy to call it such. In the same way that a born male person who identifies as a woman should be refered to as she, even if physically they're still male, Jor should called it because that's what it likes.

[Icewraith]

Spoiler: It

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What is more dehumanising: using a word that is sometimes used to dehumanise in a context used to affirm someone's gender, or denying someone the same basic courtesy that you would extend to all other humans of using their pronouns?

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Right, but if you insist on being called by a pronoun that makes other people feel as if they are dehumanizing you, aren't you just inflicting the same feeling on them? Also, you're creating a high potential for misunderstandings/random third parties to take offense because outside of the specific context of "this specific person" the pronoun is generally considered dehumanizing.

I think the issue with "it" (and curse words) is that there is a difference between calling someone by the (non)gender of their preference and treating someone as less than human. Even if that's what you want, you're asking me to appear to mistreat you in public, and I'm not your dom. That's why it's defferent than an AMAB requesting "she".

[Jormengand]

Spoiler: It

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It is not a slur or a derogatory term, and I actually find it quite offensive that you consider it one.

[Icewraith]

Spoiler: It

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It is not a slur or a derogatory term, and I actually find it quite offensive that you consider it one.

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I was taught that "it" is used for objects, not people. I have heard "it" used in an insulting and harmful manner towards people. Many of history's great crimes have been aided by thinking of people as objects and not "real" people.

So I know, mentally, that you don't think of "it" like that and you actively want to be called "it". But, my brain also has all these connotations between "using it for people" and really bad things, and if someone casually referred to someone else as "it" in my presence there would be at least a moment of confusion while my brain sorted out the context. A less careful person might take offense first and sort things out later. The emotional context of "it" as an insult when applied to a person is still there.

So even though I know I'm not insulting a person who wants to be called "it", I still feel like I am doing so, and if I were to call someone "it" in a public place I think other people are likely to think it is an insult, even if it's not.

Here's what I am saying: I AM saying that using "it" to refer to people throws all these bad switches in my brain, some of which have an emotional context, and because they're emotional and not subject to logic I don't have the means to simply switch them off. I am also trying to articulate these thoughts to others in the thread that are considering the same question, many of whom have expressed similar feelings.

Here's what I am not saying: using it for people is definitely bad in all cases and we should definitely never do it rawr rawr let's get Jormengand all fired up and push its buttons.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: It

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It is not a slur or a derogatory term, and I actually find it quite offensive that you consider it one.

Spoiler: Stephen King's It

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You may not feel that it is when used for you and others who want it to be their pronoun, but it is used as a slur and in derogatory ways. That's just a fact.

[goto124]

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Come to think of it, I haven't heard anyone ask to be referred to as 'it'.

Most of the time, 'it' should be avoided as it's typically used to refer to objects or people being seen as objects. In the rare case where someone wants to be called 'it', come to an agreement/compromise, especially when you want to talk about that someone with other people who are likely not comfortable hearing 'it'.

I feel the singular 'they' is the most natural-sounding gender-neutral pronoun. We should use 'they' more often.

[Heliomance]

Spoiler: It

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What is more dehumanising: using a word that is sometimes used to dehumanise in a context used to affirm someone's gender, or denying someone the same basic courtesy that you would extend to all other humans of using their pronouns?

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Why does your right to not be offended by the language I use trump my right to not be offended by the language I use? I will extend people the courtesy of using their pronouns, so long as their preferred pronoun is a word that I'm okay with using in general. If I would apply it to some people, then there's no reason for me not to apply it on request. If I wouldn't use it at all for humans though, I'm not singling you out by not using it, I just don't use that word for people.

[Jormengand]

Spoiler: It

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I consider it a personal insult for someone not to use someone else's correct pronouns, deliberately. If you don't feel comfortable with not directly insulting me, I don't know how to help you. If I say "Oh, I don't have anything against you specifically, I just don't feel comfortable using she for people with penises in general", then I don't think that you'd waste any time in giving me co-ordinates within a 100-foot radius of the door. It's your hang-up against using it for people in general that I take issue with. I feel that I'm being dehumanised by the idea that everyone else's pronouns are worth using, and in fact if you don't use them then there's something wrong with you, bu anyone who identifies as it isn't worth your time. It's especially bad when people say that they would avoid talking to me just because I use those pronouns. Like, what the actual hell? How is that anything other than dehumanising?

So yes, my right not to be dehumanised trumps your right not to sound, to the uneducated, as though you're dehumanising me. I would much rather do right while appearing to do wrong than do wrong while appearing to do right.

Or what? Did you expect a different answer when you pretty much said that my desire to be called by my own damn pronouns was wrong and then told me to stay out of the resulting discussion, which I think you knew I wasn't going to do, and said it for that exact reason? Why did you bring it up; did you expect something different from the usual barrage of "Oh, that person doesn't deserve to be respected" countered by a whole load of people going "Uhm, yes, it does", which dissolves into the same ad-hominem-slinging every time we have this damned argument?

[noparlpf]

Spoiler: It

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I want to preface this by saying that I'm not making any judgement on the use of "it" as a personal pronoun. I just want to explain why so many people are uncomfortable with it. (Personally, I could probably get used to using "it" to refer to a person because I work with animals, and although I tend to consider most animals on the same level of worth as humans and therefore also don't like to apply "it" to animals, a lot of other people refer to animals as "it," so I'm mostly used to it, and could probably get used to it for humans too.)

The main difference is, "he," "she," and "they" are all pronouns one normally uses for people. To the majority of English speakers, "it" does not apply to people, and using it to refer to a person is both insulting and grammatically jarring. Now, imagine if somebody told you their preferred pronoun is "idiot." To the majority of English speakers, that would be both insulting and grammatically jarring. Would you be comfortable calling somebody "idiot" on a regular basis, let alone in public where other people who are unaware of the context would hear? To most English speakers, the two scenarios are pretty much equivalent. Again, I'm not saying it's not okay to choose "it" as a personal pronoun and I'm not saying it's okay to disrespect somebody's preference. I'm just trying to explain why most people are uncomfortable with it.

[Jormengand]

Spoiler: It

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Weird example, because it's not entirely uncommon for people to call each other idiot as a form of endearment.

[noparlpf]

Spoiler: It

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Weird example, because it's not entirely uncommon for people to call each other idiot as a form of endearment.

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But pronouns aren't used to a person, they're used about a person. So you'd be calling somebody an idiot while talking about that person to a third party. And just for simplicity, let's assume this person is an acquaintance or near-stranger, not a close friend.

[Jormengand]

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But pronouns aren't used to a person, they're used about a person. So you'd be calling somebody an idiot while talking about that person to a third party. And just for simplicity, let's assume this person is an acquaintance or near-stranger, not a close friend.

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There's also the fact that "Idiot" clearly isn't a pronoun, and there's no real justification for wanting it to be used as one. "It", on the other hand, is a pronoun and I have fairly good reasons for wanting it. If someone wanted me to use "Idiot" as their pronoun, I'd say no because they're almost certainly one of those attack-helicopter types who's just doing the whole thing for a giggle.

[Lettuce]

Spoiler: It

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Hi all. I know I'm not a regular in the LGBTAI+ topics or even a regular poster on the forums in general, so I really hope no one takes any offense at my having something to say about all of this. But I actually just went through this recently with a friend, and so I just thought I'd share my thoughts. Hope that's okay?

So yeah. I actually have a local friend who recently who went through this transition--a friend who came to the conclusion that it wanted to stop being referred to as "they" (the pronoun it had been using beforehand). Its reasoning behind its choice is slightly different than what Jor's stated its is, but the bottom line is the same: the pronoun FEELS right to both of them. People don't choose their personal pronouns in order to be provocative; they choose them because they are what makes them comfortable, happy, and respected for who they are. Personal pronouns, are, well, personal! I feel like it's important to keep in mind that using them is intrinsically for the benefit of the recipient. A person doesn't call a transwoman "she" for their personal benefit or feelings about the topic; they call her "she" because that's what she knows she IS, and that's what she's told the world she is, and she wants to see the world reflect and reaffirm her womanhood instead of trying to pull her down by insisting that she's something she's not. Pronouns are literally ABOUT the person you're referring to.

My friend who now uses the pronoun it actually went through a bunch of the things you guys have been discussing here: a lot of people it considered friends or at least good acquaintances are rather more distant now, and it feels a lot more isolated than before. And it's been really hard on it. Like, really really hard, because it feels dehumanized and betrayed by people it trusted, right at the point where it stuck its flag in the ground and proclaimed "this is who I am". And that hit super close to home for it. It initially felt like less of a person; less worthy of living. It used to do several self-harming behaviours, and it's been a struggle for it to not turn back to its old habits... But things are slowly getting better. (At least, that's what it's told me...)

And to be completely honest and upfront: I myself was in the 'this is sorta uncomfortable' camp, but I've stuck with it out of stubbornness for the principle of the matter--because I believe that any person should get to be called by the pronouns of their choice, not the pronouns of my choice. More importantly, this person is my friend, and continuing to be its friend is totally worth it to me. I decided quite purposefully that I'm not going to let two letters stand in the way of my knowing a really awesome person. I won't say that it's totally stopped feeling strange yet (it's only been a month and a half so far, and I don't see this person daily), but it's definitely gotten LESS strange, and I'm pretty sure with some more time it'll be completely natural. I'm still a little awkward and I still mess up sometimes, but it and I are actually closer than ever because of this shared experience. I've only been confronted once about the pronoun use in public (and it was a fairly civil exchange at that), and both my friend and I explained the situation. The lady who'd confronted me was surprised and we all kind of laughed about it--the spirit of her concern wasn't wrong, after all--and she even managed to sneak in an "it" or two of her own in reference to my friend (which made it SUPER happy) before we parted ways. Since then, I know that we've still raised a few eyebrows, but I personally think that that's a completely worthy trade-off for my friend's smile and comfort.

Anyway, I guess the more relevant part about all of this is that I've been talking with a couple of our other mutual friends--some who have kind of drifted away from it--and been listening to their concerns about the topic, since I want to help rebuild bridges and reassemble a better support network for my friend. A lot of the issues they've raised are similar to things that Helio and a lot of others have explained, and I really CAN see where they're coming from. I had the exact same kneejerk "this is uncomfortable" reaction myself. A lot of us have grown up being taught that "it" is only used to refer to inanimate objects, and a lot of us have seen it used in situations and ways that are meant to hurt others.

But then again, a lot of what we've been taught is wrong. (Or at least it is in my case--I know that much!) As Yoda once said, "you must unlearn what you have learned."

Still, how do you comfortably get over that kneejerk reaction? It's instinctual and hard to catch, hard to fight. It's difficult, but it's definitely possible if you have the will/perspective to do it. Being taught that "it" is wrong is a trained behaviour; so it's also possible to train oneself out of it.

At least in my friend's case, it's pretty patient and understanding that this is a transition for everybody and there will be growing pains. (There were growing pains for its original pronoun switch to "they", too.) As long as peoples' hearts are in the right place, and as long as they're trying to take its feelings into account, my friend is willing to forgive and forget... and I feel like that's generally a healthy attitude to have, and it's important not to demonize each other, or call each other names or accuse each other of being bigoted when we just have a hard time understanding the place that the other is coming from. Because that makes communication harder, and people LESS receptive to your point. It's cathartic for a moment, sure, but in the long run it's just not worth it.

So for me and the people I (and a couple of other conspirators) reached out to to try to re-expand my friend's social circle--at least those who have said that they want to reconnect with my friend and are just feeling really awkward about the whole thing--we've been doing the following: Talking. Just talking. When I talk to our mutual friends off and on about whatever throughout the week, I try to work in mention of my friend-with-an-it pronoun. Talk about how it's doing, what its been up to lately, what we chatted about on the phone the other day. And I think lots of small, one-on-one conversations where both of us KNOW my friend's wishes about its pronouns, have really been helping people grow more comfort. Because people who are making a big adjustment--and it IS a big adjustment, especially if you've been kinda trained your whole life not to use a word for something because it's wrongbad--need a safe space to do it in, too. This is a big deal for all involved. As people get more comfortable, we're probably going to meet up at each others' places in small groups and be open to mention of our friend come up in whatever else we end up doing. The more comfortable we are, the larger and more public we'll go, and people have agreed to try to reach out to it when they're ready. So... I guess I'd advise the same sort of thing, for anyone out there who has a friend who has adopted a pronoun that makes you feel awkward?

Also, to address the point about the word "it" being a slur and thus being irredeemable, but in a perfect world it'd be different: Things won't get better unless we all try to change them. If some people want to be referred to as "it", I don't think the answer is to tell them no, that the world will never accept that (which can be a really hurtful thing to hear)--I think the answer is to call everybody what they want, and when other people see that they are happy about it instead of offended, they'll realize that it doesn't have to be a slur. It'll challenge their preconceptions, and that'll be a good thing, because that's the only way it'll ever be normalized. We have to walk the walk, be the change. Don't let assumptions go unchallenged.

Anyway, that's just my experiences and my opinion. Hugs to everybody on both "sides", and a reminder that we're all on the same team. Let's support and love each other. <3

[5a Violista]

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There's also the fact that "Idiot" clearly isn't a pronoun, and there's no real justification for wanting it to be used as one. "It", on the other hand, is a pronoun and I have fairly good reasons for wanting it. If someone wanted me to use "Idiot" as their pronoun, I'd say no because they're almost certainly one of those attack-helicopter types who's just doing the whole thing for a giggle.

Spoiler: Discussion about pronouns

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To be honest, before now reading this discussion, I had thought people who wanted to be called "it" also fit into that category of making fun of people's gender identities by identifying as an attack helicopter, as well. So I would have refused to call people "it" for the exact same reason that you wouldn't use "idiot" as someone's pronoun.

Thanks to this conversation, I've been corrected, now, but past-me still thought the way past-me thought.

[WarKitty]

Is there such a thing as a binder for one's hips and rear end? Preferably that doesn't go down to the thigh? I've tried compression shorts but the thighs end up painfully tight by the time I've got the compression I want in the hips and rear.

[Lissou]

Spoiler: It

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Sorry, Jor, I didn't mean to dehumanize you. The word leaves a bad taste in my throat for how much it has been used as an insult and a slur, but if you want to be referred to that way, I'll do my best to ignore that and use "it" when talking about you.

EDIT: for hip/butt binders, have you looked into postpartum binders? I don't think they go down as far as the thighs so it may be the kind of thing you're looking for.

[Icewraith]

Spoiler: It

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Hi all. I know I'm not a regular in the LGBTAI+ topics or even a regular poster on the forums in general, so I really hope no one takes any offense at my having something to say about all of this. But I actually just went through this recently with a friend, and so I just thought I'd share my thoughts. Hope that's okay?

So yeah. I actually have a local friend who recently who went through this transition--a friend who came to the conclusion that it wanted to stop being referred to as "they" (the pronoun it had been using beforehand). Its reasoning behind its choice is slightly different than what Jor's stated its is, but the bottom line is the same: the pronoun FEELS right to both of them. People don't choose their personal pronouns in order to be provocative; they choose them because they are what makes them comfortable, happy, and respected for who they are. Personal pronouns, are, well, personal! I feel like it's important to keep in mind that using them is intrinsically for the benefit of the recipient. A person doesn't call a transwoman "she" for their personal benefit or feelings about the topic; they call her "she" because that's what she knows she IS, and that's what she's told the world she is, and she wants to see the world reflect and reaffirm her womanhood instead of trying to pull her down by insisting that she's something she's not. Pronouns are literally ABOUT the person you're referring to.

My friend who now uses the pronoun it actually went through a bunch of the things you guys have been discussing here: a lot of people it considered friends or at least good acquaintances are rather more distant now, and it feels a lot more isolated than before. And it's been really hard on it. Like, really really hard, because it feels dehumanized and betrayed by people it trusted, right at the point where it stuck its flag in the ground and proclaimed "this is who I am". And that hit super close to home for it. It initially felt like less of a person; less worthy of living. It used to do several self-harming behaviours, and it's been a struggle for it to not turn back to its old habits... But things are slowly getting better. (At least, that's what it's told me...)

And to be completely honest and upfront: I myself was in the 'this is sorta uncomfortable' camp, but I've stuck with it out of stubbornness for the principle of the matter--because I believe that any person should get to be called by the pronouns of their choice, not the pronouns of my choice. More importantly, this person is my friend, and continuing to be its friend is totally worth it to me. I decided quite purposefully that I'm not going to let two letters stand in the way of my knowing a really awesome person. I won't say that it's totally stopped feeling strange yet (it's only been a month and a half so far, and I don't see this person daily), but it's definitely gotten LESS strange, and I'm pretty sure with some more time it'll be completely natural. I'm still a little awkward and I still mess up sometimes, but it and I are actually closer than ever because of this shared experience. I've only been confronted once about the pronoun use in public (and it was a fairly civil exchange at that), and both my friend and I explained the situation. The lady who'd confronted me was surprised and we all kind of laughed about it--the spirit of her concern wasn't wrong, after all--and she even managed to sneak in an "it" or two of her own in reference to my friend (which made it SUPER happy) before we parted ways. Since then, I know that we've still raised a few eyebrows, but I personally think that that's a completely worthy trade-off for my friend's smile and comfort.

Anyway, I guess the more relevant part about all of this is that I've been talking with a couple of our other mutual friends--some who have kind of drifted away from it--and been listening to their concerns about the topic, since I want to help rebuild bridges and reassemble a better support network for my friend. A lot of the issues they've raised are similar to things that Helio and a lot of others have explained, and I really CAN see where they're coming from. I had the exact same kneejerk "this is uncomfortable" reaction myself. A lot of us have grown up being taught that "it" is only used to refer to inanimate objects, and a lot of us have seen it used in situations and ways that are meant to hurt others.

But then again, a lot of what we've been taught is wrong. (Or at least it is in my case--I know that much!) As Yoda once said, "you must unlearn what you have learned."

Still, how do you comfortably get over that kneejerk reaction? It's instinctual and hard to catch, hard to fight. It's difficult, but it's definitely possible if you have the will/perspective to do it. Being taught that "it" is wrong is a trained behaviour; so it's also possible to train oneself out of it.

At least in my friend's case, it's pretty patient and understanding that this is a transition for everybody and there will be growing pains. (There were growing pains for its original pronoun switch to "they", too.) As long as peoples' hearts are in the right place, and as long as they're trying to take its feelings into account, my friend is willing to forgive and forget... and I feel like that's generally a healthy attitude to have, and it's important not to demonize each other, or call each other names or accuse each other of being bigoted when we just have a hard time understanding the place that the other is coming from. Because that makes communication harder, and people LESS receptive to your point. It's cathartic for a moment, sure, but in the long run it's just not worth it.

So for me and the people I (and a couple of other conspirators) reached out to to try to re-expand my friend's social circle--at least those who have said that they want to reconnect with my friend and are just feeling really awkward about the whole thing--we've been doing the following: Talking. Just talking. When I talk to our mutual friends off and on about whatever throughout the week, I try to work in mention of my friend-with-an-it pronoun. Talk about how it's doing, what its been up to lately, what we chatted about on the phone the other day. And I think lots of small, one-on-one conversations where both of us KNOW my friend's wishes about its pronouns, have really been helping people grow more comfort. Because people who are making a big adjustment--and it IS a big adjustment, especially if you've been kinda trained your whole life not to use a word for something because it's wrongbad--need a safe space to do it in, too. This is a big deal for all involved. As people get more comfortable, we're probably going to meet up at each others' places in small groups and be open to mention of our friend come up in whatever else we end up doing. The more comfortable we are, the larger and more public we'll go, and people have agreed to try to reach out to it when they're ready. So... I guess I'd advise the same sort of thing, for anyone out there who has a friend who has adopted a pronoun that makes you feel awkward?

Also, to address the point about the word "it" being a slur and thus being irredeemable, but in a perfect world it'd be different: Things won't get better unless we all try to change them. If some people want to be referred to as "it", I don't think the answer is to tell them no, that the world will never accept that (which can be a really hurtful thing to hear)--I think the answer is to call everybody what they want, and when other people see that they are happy about it instead of offended, they'll realize that it doesn't have to be a slur. It'll challenge their preconceptions, and that'll be a good thing, because that's the only way it'll ever be normalized. We have to walk the walk, be the change. Don't let assumptions go unchallenged.

Anyway, that's just my experiences and my opinion. Hugs to everybody on both "sides", and a reminder that we're all on the same team. Let's support and love each other. <3

Spoiler: Spoiler

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OK, but look what basically happened here. Your friend asked other people to use "it", and subsequently recieved treatment that was dehumanizing.

Yes, it is a pronoun. Not all pronouns are used for people. An AMAB person requesting "she" is asking other people to recognize her as female.

Requesting "it" is asking other people to recognize the requestee as a non-person.

The argument for it is basically "I don't think "it" is dehumanizing when used to refer to a person even though that's the generally understood use, and want to be referred to as "it". By refusing to dehumanize me, you are dehumanizing me."

Can you really blame people for avoiding a lose-lose situation? It's not even the uneducated or the ignorant that will have the biggest problems with use of "it". The people who will balk the most at "it" (aside from grammar teachers) are the people who know that convincing a mob to think of someone as "it" is usually step three on the "they're not really people so it's ok to kill them and take their stuff" ladder.

It's not like this is an old thing that's faded away and now the term is ripe for colonization, either. "It" is used as a widely understood insult intended to demean or negate another sapient being's personhood at least as recently as the first Shrek movie. (Which was more recently adapted into a broadway hit and has national tours featuring the same scene with the same usage)

[Jormengand]

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The argument for it is basically "I don't think "it" is dehumanizing when used to refer to a person even though that's the generally understood use, and want to be referred to as "it". By refusing to dehumanize me, you are dehumanizing me."

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Yay, strawman argument!

No, the argument is "I don't think "It" is dehumanising when used to refer to a person even though it's sometimes used that way, and want to be referred to as "It". Given a choice between sounding as though you're dehumanising me and actually dehumanising me, the answer should be obvious. If you'd rather save face with the ignorant than respect my basic dignity, you do that and I'll be over there."

[noparlpf]

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There's also the fact that "Idiot" clearly isn't a pronoun, and there's no real justification for wanting it to be used as one. "It", on the other hand, is a pronoun and I have fairly good reasons for wanting it. If someone wanted me to use "Idiot" as their pronoun, I'd say no because they're almost certainly one of those attack-helicopter types who's just doing the whole thing for a giggle.

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No, "idiot" is not a pronoun. Hence it would be grammatically jarring to most people. Similarly, "it" is not a human pronoun to most English speakers. Hence it is grammatically jarring to most people to hear it applied to a person.

[Coidzor]

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As always, this discussion is fruitless because instead of seeing one another's position and disagreeing, the forest keeps getting missed for the trees.

At this point I can't tell if this is a communication issue, or if the plan is just to keep yammering at one another until fatigue sets in.

Is anyone else getting a feeling akin to watching an ESL language disconnect issue unfold?

[Icewraith]

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Yay, strawman argument!

No, the argument is "I don't think "It" is dehumanising when used to refer to a person even though it's sometimes used that way, and want to be referred to as "It". Given a choice between sounding as though you're dehumanising me and actually dehumanising me, the answer should be obvious. If you'd rather save face with the ignorant than respect my basic dignity, you do that and I'll be over there."

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The fact that I know you don't think an action is dehumanizing doesn't necessarily prevent me from feeling performing that action is still dehumanizing you. If I use "it" I feel bad and look bad to everyone who doesn't have the context (which can have its own consequences), if I don't use "it" I feel bad and you feel bad/angry. Either way I feel bad and have a conscious or subconscious motivation to avoid similar interactions.

You're taking a "same word, not an insult in this context, none of the guilt" approach, but the reality is "same word, normally an insult, all of the guilt". So it is not a strawman, and it is still lose-lose for the pronoun-er.

[Heliomance]

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Or what? Did you expect a different answer when you pretty much said that my desire to be called by my own damn pronouns was wrong and then told me to stay out of the resulting discussion, which I think you knew I wasn't going to do, and said it for that exact reason? Why did you bring it up; did you expect something different from the usual barrage of "Oh, that person doesn't deserve to be respected" countered by a whole load of people going "Uhm, yes, it does", which dissolves into the same ad-hominem-slinging every time we have this damned argument?

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Actually, no, I was genuinely hoping that you wouldn't get involved. Because I know this topic is personal to you, and I know discussing it makes you feel crap, and I wanted to avoid that, but I also wanted to have an open and hopefully productive debate on the subject, which isn't possible when hurt feelings start getting involved. So yeah, I suggested that you don't look at the spoilers because I was trying to avoid getting you dragged into another crappy argument that hits you where it hurts.

[Jormengand]

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Actually, no, I was genuinely hoping that you wouldn't get involved. Because I know this topic is personal to you, and I know discussing it makes you feel crap, and I wanted to avoid that, but I also wanted to have an open and hopefully productive debate on the subject, which isn't possible when hurt feelings start getting involved. So yeah, I suggested that you don't look at the spoilers because I was trying to avoid getting you dragged into another crappy argument that hits you where it hurts.

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I don't feel it's possible to have a productive argument on whether or not someone deserves to be treated with the same basic respect with which you treat the vast, vast majority of human beings, because the moment the answer isn't "Yes", you're already doing something wrong.

[golentan]

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I don't feel it's possible to have a productive argument on whether or not someone deserves to be treated with the same basic respect with which you treat the vast, vast majority of human beings, because the moment the answer isn't "Yes", you're already doing something wrong.

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The trouble is that the choice you are presenting us with is "Do this thing which offends you and people around you or you're not being respectful and there is no compromise position which I find acceptable," and "I am offended by your choice of words regardless of context."

And language is context dependent. You can try to change the context, but language is dependent on everyone present having the same or similar context for words. This is a definition fight, and those cannot be resolved short of agreeing to a compromise word or definition.

And given a choice between using language that in context I find dehumanizing and offensive every time I talk to you, and being accused of being dehumanizing and offensive every time I talk to you... I would rather avoid the fight by not talking to you.

I have no problem with the idea of you having a gender neutral gender identity. Or any other gender identity, for that matter. I have no problem using gender neutral pronouns for you. I have a serious problem with trying to reinvent the wheel in a way that tells people "this gender neutral pronoun that I actually prefer for myself is offensive" and "this gender neutral pronoun which was shouted at me and loved ones as an insult and which I have never heard used in a loving context outside the boundaries of this argument." I actually have problems with the idea of normalizing this word the same way I have problems with people attempting to normalize other slurs. If it has been normalized to the point that it has become acceptable and non-hateful common use at some point in the future, I'm willing to start using it. Until then, IT as a word is seriously disturbing to me, harmful in my experience, and if we can't find some other term that is acceptable I cannot keep having this conversation and I do have to avoid it for my own mental health.

[Icewraith]

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I don't feel it's possible to have a productive argument on whether or not someone deserves to be treated with the same basic respect with which you treat the vast, vast majority of human beings, because the moment the answer isn't "Yes", you're already doing something wrong.

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Right, and the vast, vast majority of human beings I treat with respect by using pronouns reserved for human beings and not objects. I also don't publicly use words or phrases that are widely considered offensive or insulting except in very specific contexts.

The problem is that someone is demanding I treat them with less respect than I treat the vast, vast majority of human beings.

So the responses are as follows:

1: Use "it", feel guilty and conflicted, hope nobody misunderstands the situation or tries to intervene in public (and deal with a stream of clueless but concerned individuals over the course of time), and hope the usage doesn't accidentally slip out with regards to anyone else.

2: Request or use something other than "it" (they/them for instance), angry discussion ensues.

3: Avoid using third person pronouns with respect to that person, which still technically denies the person in question the use of the pronoun but avoids the communication land mine of using the wrong pronoun.

4: Avoid the person.

So far (sample size: 2) people have been reporting that a number of people choose or at least consider 4 rather than deal with 1-3.