Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann

[CN the Logos]

To be honest, they're space marines. You can get tactical squads for pennies on ebay, other units not so much.

Deathstorm isn't that great for BA, you get a lot of Tyranids and useless Terminators and the good units need drop pods for more cash (drop pods are one of the things which aren't so cheap second hand).

Death Company dreadnoughts are bad, Cassor gets a slight pass because he's a troops choice but he's not really a good one.

I needed the rulebook anyway, got the two required troops for a CAD (one of them if I use the magnetized DC as something else, but they seem good enough regardless), and I traded the Tyranids for a Revised Scrubland. So I think I'm I'm okay as far as value for money goes. I also have a guy who'd be willing to just give me lightning claws if I want the Termimators to be Assault, and I could magnetize those as well in case I find myself with the hammer and shield bits in the future.

Bonus points if you also have Stormclaw, and you play Space Wolves now, while your wife plays Blood Angels.
But yes. Since you asked, it officially goes on my list of things to do. It'll probably be done around Wednesday or so.

I actually considered Space Wolves for a while, but as amusing as "Team Dante versus Team Logan" debates would be, I realized I loathe their canon color scheme and they apparently don't have successor chapters. I mean, I guess I could paint my hypothetical Space Wolves whatever and say they're an AU pallet swap or whatever, but I enjoy coming up with detailed history for my own subfactions (even if I'm the only one who knows about it) and Space Wolves don't seem terribly conducive to that. It's really unfortunate, because I really like the idea of SPACE WEREWOLF VIKINGS, even if the flying wolf head thing and the sleigh are a truly special kind of stupid-looking. On a brighter note, my main army is Necrons, which does mean we'll be able to get full use out of Shield of Baal: Exterminatus if I get a copy.

Building on a Budget: Blood Angels

Blood Angels have been a fan favourite for a long time. No, really. A long time. Sanguinius was the 'best' Primarch, died soloing against Horus, and in his wake left an entire Chapter of Mary Sues who are supposedly a 'doomed' Chapter, yet keep managing to not be dead, despite nearly going extinct three times, all while gorgeous and having flowing blonde hair. They're pretty much the best - even better than Ultramarines! But, aside from that, the Blood Angels really do have some cool imagery going for them. Are you in? Of course you're in. Everyone loves space vampires - even though they're not vampires and have said so like a dozen times[...]

Thanks! This is great. One question though: what HQ would you recommend at the 750 to 1000 point level? We're probably going to play at that level for a while until she gets used to the rules; low enough to make keeping track of everything on the table easier, but high enough to dodge most of the issues with low point games. Should we go with something cheaper, or embrace the Herohammer mentality and stick Mephistion or Karlaen in a death star? Keeping in mind of course, that her main opponents will be Necrons in a CAD because I'm missing some models for the better formations. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[Closet_Skeleton]

AT 7500-1000? Regular librarian, he's got a power weapon and psychic powers and is still the cheapest.

Above 1000? Probably... a librarian because; power weapon, psychic and cheap. Or Mephiston because even more psychic and powerful despite not being cheap.

Of course you could go with a Captain because he's a natural leader and... oh no you're Space Marines so no Force Multiplier Officers for you. Sanguinary Priest is like a more reliable but less flexible Librarian who needs to buy a power weapon and has no storm shield + terminator armour option.

Spoiler: when it doubt, go with a space wizard

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[Cheesegear]

Thanks! This is great. One question though: what HQ would you recommend at the 750 to 1000 point level?

In lower points, the 'best' stuff is anything that gives you extra special rules for free. AM Officers, the Warp Storm Table, Skitarii Doctrina. Stuff that makes your army more than the sum of its parts, or, rather, better than what you paid for it. So, while a Captain - inlcuding Karlean - is 'fine', they're 150 Point 'do nothing' models. If you want to embrace Herohammer, you can't go past Commander Dante. 2+ Save, Jump, S6/7, I6 AP2. Eternal Warrior. The works. But, Dante isn't exactly a Force Multiplier, which is what you want, in lower points games. I wrote a whole thing on how after two or three games against Skitarii, I decided that they were broken at low points, because they can Force Multiply so hard.

Veritas Vitae; Any generic model that is your Warlord, wants this. Remembering that any rule that allows you to re-roll Warlord Traits, applies to this, too.

Chaplain; Maul, 4++, provides Fearless and Hatred. Solid. Good for very small games, but 750<1000 starts getting into 'real game' territory, and Chaplains just aren't that good.

Librarian; Force Weapon and Div. Librarians with Divination outclass Chaplains pretty quickly, since the Primaris is Prescience, which is Hatred, except lasts forever. Since Blessings exist in the Shooting Phase and last through the opponent's turn, and, if you're in Melee, having Prescience up is vastly superior to Hatred. The only issue is the lack of Invulnerable Save, which you can get via Terminator Armour + Storm Shield. But, Terminators can't Sweep. If the opponent's star unit (Necrons, right?) has ATSKNF or Fearless, then you don't even need to be able to Sweep anyway.
In small points, a Librarian w/ Force Axe, ML2, Terminator Armour and Storm Shield, and the Veritas Vitae is only 140 Points, and quite strong. While Mephiston is over 170, and needs a bodyguard unit - which is extra points, which you don't have.

Modelling problems; The generic Terminator Librarian model comes with a Staff. You'll have to convert a Storm Shield on him, as well as find him a better weapon. However, if you want a Gallian's Staff, that's fine, too - but an Axe is better. The dedicated Blood Angel Librarian comes with an Axe, but it's in the wrong hand, meaning that converting a Storm Shield onto him is a PitA. The Space Hulk Terminator Librarian (a.k.a; Mephiston before he was cool), has an Axe in the right hand, so converting a Storm Shield onto the model is really easy. But, checking eBay now, has Calistarius models are rare and going for a lot. There really isn't a good answer. The best answer is the vanilla TL, and doing arm swaps - but that takes money if you want to WYSIWYG it.

Sanguinary Priests are very strong. Cheap as dirt, automatically hands out FNP and +1WS, and likes to pick up Valour's Edge. Unfortunately, no Invulnerable save at all, which means they're kind of bad as a Warlord pick, no matter what points level you're on (inb4; Mephiston has T5 and 2+ Armour, not the same thing). However, they're still cheap enough that even with Valour's Edge, they're only 80 - or 81 - Points. If you're Librarian is rolling on Div, he's not going to be picking up Endurance, and FNP is really good.

Corbulo is slightly stronger than a regular Priest, but you're paying at least 40 Points for a better statline and a re-roll. I mean, in large games, he's good, because his 120 Point price tag doesn't mean much, his re-roll is generally critical, and bigger points values means you can include a different model to be your Warlord since Corbulo doesn't have an Invulnerable Save - and we've established that that's bad.

Recap.
Librarian; Force Axe, ML2, Terminator Armour, Storm Shield, Veritas Vitae - 140 Points
Sanguinary Priest; Valour's Edge (Veritas Vitae) - 80 (95) Points

One or both of those things. When you can afford - points, that is - a bodyguard unit, Mephiston is easily one of the stonger models in the BA book. While Sanguinary Priests are always useful regardless of what points level you play at - plus the models are beautiful.

[LeSwordfish]

I wrote a whole thing on how after two or three games against Skitarii, I decided that they were broken at low points, because they can Force Multiply so hard.

To add to this specifically, Skitarii force multiply so well as part of their army list. If you can drop a pie-plate on a Command Squad you can cut off orders, if you can kill a psyker they stop psyking. Doctrina Imperatives go off every turn, and there's nothing whatsoever you can do to stop them.

(What else does that? Warp Storms, but those are random and possibly a hinderance.)

[bluntpencil]

In lower points, the 'best' stuff is anything that gives you extra special rules for free. AM Officers, the Warp Storm Table, Skitarii Doctrina. Stuff that makes your army more than the sum of its parts, or, rather, better than what you paid for it. So, while a Captain - inlcuding Karlean - is 'fine', they're 150 Point 'do nothing' models. If you want to embrace Herohammer, you can't go past Commander Dante. 2+ Save, Jump, S6/7, I6 AP2. Eternal Warrior. The works. But, Dante isn't exactly a Force Multiplier, which is what you want, in lower points games. I wrote a whole thing on how after two or three games against Skitarii, I decided that they were broken at low points, because they can Force Multiply so hard.

Veritas Vitae; Any generic model that is your Warlord, wants this. Remembering that any rule that allows you to re-roll Warlord Traits, applies to this, too.

Chaplain; Maul, 4++, provides Fearless and Hatred. Solid. Good for very small games, but 750<1000 starts getting into 'real game' territory, and Chaplains just aren't that good.

Librarian; Force Weapon and Div. Librarians with Divination outclass Chaplains pretty quickly, since the Primaris is Prescience, which is Hatred, except lasts forever. Since Blessings exist in the Shooting Phase and last through the opponent's turn, and, if you're in Melee, having Prescience up is vastly superior to Hatred. The only issue is the lack of Invulnerable Save, which you can get via Terminator Armour + Storm Shield. But, Terminators can't Sweep. If the opponent's star unit (Necrons, right?) has ATSKNF or Fearless, then you don't even need to be able to Sweep anyway.
In small points, a Librarian w/ Force Axe, ML2, Terminator Armour and Storm Shield, and the Veritas Vitae is only 140 Points, and quite strong. While Mephiston is over 170, and needs a bodyguard unit - which is extra points, which you don't have.

Modelling problems; The generic Terminator Librarian model comes with a Staff. You'll have to convert a Storm Shield on him, as well as find him a better weapon. However, if you want a Gallian's Staff, that's fine, too - but an Axe is better. The dedicated Blood Angel Librarian comes with an Axe, but it's in the wrong hand, meaning that converting a Storm Shield onto him is a PitA. The Space Hulk Terminator Librarian (a.k.a; Mephiston before he was cool), has an Axe in the right hand, so converting a Storm Shield onto the model is really easy. But, checking eBay now, has Calistarius models are rare and going for a lot. There really isn't a good answer. The best answer is the vanilla TL, and doing arm swaps - but that takes money if you want to WYSIWYG it.

Sanguinary Priests are very strong. Cheap as dirt, automatically hands out FNP and +1WS, and likes to pick up Valour's Edge. Unfortunately, no Invulnerable save at all, which means they're kind of bad as a Warlord pick, no matter what points level you're on (inb4; Mephiston has T5 and 2+ Armour, not the same thing). However, they're still cheap enough that even with Valour's Edge, they're only 80 - or 81 - Points. If you're Librarian is rolling on Div, he's not going to be picking up Endurance, and FNP is really good.

Corbulo is slightly stronger than a regular Priest, but you're paying at least 40 Points for a better statline and a re-roll. I mean, in large games, he's good, because his 120 Point price tag doesn't mean much, his re-roll is generally critical, and bigger points values means you can include a different model to be your Warlord since Corbulo doesn't have an Invulnerable Save - and we've established that that's bad.

Recap.
Librarian; Force Axe, ML2, Terminator Armour, Storm Shield, Veritas Vitae - 140 Points
Sanguinary Priest; Valour's Edge (Veritas Vitae) - 80 (95) Points

One or both of those things. When you can afford - points, that is - a bodyguard unit, Mephiston is easily one of the stonger models in the BA book. While Sanguinary Priests are always useful regardless of what points level you play at - plus the models are beautiful.

Sanguinary Priest should always pay an extra point for a pistol. That +1A is needed!

[Closet_Skeleton]

A shield is the easiest thing to convert on to a model. The arm the model has free is irrelevant. If you made your own shield you can just glue it onto any arm and if there's already a hand on a molded shield you just remove it with a file and glue it onto the model's current hand.

Galian's Staff is a must have according to some BA players. I've never used it but only because I haven't got to play since the new book came out..

[Cheesegear]

Galian's Staff is a must have according to some BA players. I've never used it but only because I haven't got to play since the new book came out..

If rolling on Biomancy, absolutely. Iron Arm will give you +5 Strength with a Staff, and gives Smash making your weapon's AP irrelevant, with Force active, Biomancy-users with Staves are very, very strong - hi, Ahriman! If you're not rolling on Biomancy potentially racking up Smash, your weapon's AP is totally relevant, and losing Wounds to Gallian's Staff on your Warlord is a terrible idea.

Gallian's Staff is a must have to Librarians built to use it. A Warlord model, rolling on Div, doesn't want the Staff.

[Drasius]

So, we played out our team Apoc game today. This won't be quite as extensive a battle report as normal, since it's hard to keep track of 9k per side, difficult to get a decent photo with all the carnage and hard to remember to take pics as often as I should. I think I've got the majority of the order of things correct, but some stuff might be a bit out of place, and lots of stuff happened that I will forget to mention or simply didn't see.

3k per player, 3 players per side.

Spoiler: Team 1

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Adamantine Lance (3x Paladins)
1x Knight Errant (with IWND relic)
1x Plasma Obliterator
1x Linebreaker Squadron (4x Vindicators that totally are Iron hands vindies, and not chaos marine vindicators at all.)
1x Stormwing (2x Skyhammer 'Talons and 1x Ass Cannon/Multi-Melta 'Raven)
1x Baneblade Arrowhead formation (3x Baneblades)
2x Shadowswords
2x Ironclads (with drop pods)
2x Chapter Masters (tricked out with all the toys)
2x Grey Knight Librarians (tricked out with all the toys)
10x Tactical Terminators
1x Bunker with void shield
1x Big Mek (KFF and Mega Armour IIRC)
1x Gorkanaught
1x Dakkajet
1x Blitza Bomber
2x Stormtalons (Skyhammers)
1x Fire Raptor
1x Land Raider Achillies
1x Thunderfire Cannon

Spoiler: Team 2

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1x Baronial Court (1x Warden, 2x Paladins, 1x Errant and The Forgotten Knight)
1x Baneblade
1x Stormwing (2x Typhoon 'Talons, 1x Ass Cannon/Multimelta 'Raven)
1x Vulcan
3x Las Cents
3x Assault Cents
1x Brayarth Ashmantle
1x Unit of Kastellans (2x Kastellans, 1x Minder)
1x Land Raider (not sure what type)
5x Terminators
1x Chapter master
10x GK Termies
1x GK Librarian
5x Legion of the damned (plasma gun, plasma cannon, plasma pistol)
1x Thunderfire cannon
2x 10-man marine squads in rhinos
2x squads in pods, though I can't remember if they were sternguard or just normal marines
1x Predator
1x Dreadknight
5x Terminators (4x Hammernators, 1x LC)
5x Terminators (4x Hammernators, 1x LC)
1x Chaplain in terminator armour
7(?)x Vanguard Vets with toys

Spoiler: Mission, Deployment, Set Up, Warlords, Powers, Strategic Cards, Special Rules

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Mission was to Capture 3 objectives spread across the board. Each player turn your side scors a point if it had the unit closest to an objective regardless of distance. Each objective is worth 1 point. Each objective is mysterious and resets every player turn.
1 point for every warlord kill.
1 point for every superheavy or gargantuan creature killed.

Special Rule: A special area at one end of the table (containing an objectve) that only knights could enter was in play. No attacks could be directed in or out (though if it scattered in or out that was played as normal). The surrounding battlements could be occupied by anyone, but only the knights could enter the duelling ring. A d66 boon table for any knights who fought and won in the ring was available. only 1 knight from each side was allowed in the ring at any one time. 2 Knights Enter, 1 Knight Leaves.

Set Up was Dawn of War on a 12x4 table, no night fighting in effect (I'm not sure if no-one wanted it or it just didn't roll that way).
Game will last for 5 turns unless we run out of time.
At the break (turn 3), each player may return 1 unit to the field for free, any other additional unit/s my be returned at the cost of 1 strategic point per unit.
Turns will be 45 minutes per side.

Team 1 lost the roll to pick sides and got the side to the right of most of the photos.
Team 1 then won the roll to go first and decided to deploy first and go first.

For Team 1
My Errant was my warlord and picked up re-roll failed invulnerable saves of 1.
The Chapter master with the shield eternal was the marine warlord on Team 1
One of the baneblades was nominated as warlord for the guard player

For team 2
Vulcan, one of the errants and ... I can't remember were their warlords.

Team 1 Strategic Objectives were the no scatter DS one for the marine player, smoke wall for me and shield generator for the guard player.
Team 2 Strategic Objectives were the no scatter DS one for the GK player, smoke wall for the marine players and shield generator for the knight player.

Team 1 the GK libbies got Terrify, Mental Fortitude and Hallucinate on 1 and then Terrify, [s]Mental Fortitude[s] Psychic Shriek, Hallucinate and Hammerhand on the other (yes, they rolled the exact same set of ****ty Telepathy powers)
Team 2 GK libby got nothing of interest

We set up with the AdLance near the entrance to the duelling pit, followed by the plasma obliterator and then the shadowswords guarded by the errant with the baneblades in arrowhead surrounding the bunker with the big mek and thunderfire cannon on the top. The vindy formation shored up the far flank. All fliers in reserve and the marines all in DS reserve.

They deployed their knights throughout their battle line, with their lone baneblade towards the duelling pit and then a bit of a gap with all the marines on the far flank opposite the vindicators along with the thunderfire camping the objective in some ruins. Their fliers in reserve, GK's and various terminators, vanguard vets and legion were held in reserve.

Team 1 side


Team 2 side


They failed to sieze and away we go.

Spoiler: Turn 1

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Team 1
They pop 2 of their strategic assets; Smoke wall (cutting off the line of fire for most of the baneblade chassis vehicles) in front of their knights and a void shield generator near their marines. Our marine player pops his no scatter DS asset. Our fliers come on targetting the big threats, mostly the knights and the marines while our marine player comes down in range to break the other marine player with Fire Raptor assistance. Ad Lance moves towards the pit, with 1 knight entering. The various baneblades shufle around for firing angles, as do the vindicators.

Lots of shooting, but the Baneblades are mostly cut off from their primary targets and don't achieve much. The fliers take some HP off the knights and the terminators blast the marines while the vindicators pop the las cents and drop the remaining void shields.

Score 1 point for the knight objective and 1 point for the middle objective.

2:0 to Team 1

Team 2
We popped our smoke wall, covering the ad lance and the shadow swords from his knights and baneblade. Their marine player popped his no scatter DS.

The GK came in and immediately occupied the plasma obliterator, ditching the librarian to stand outside in the cold. Their fliers came on and only managed a single HP to a 'Talon and made the dakkajet jink. 1 of their terminator units mishaped despite the no scatter since he arrived within 1" of our unit once all models were place, but rolled a 6 and went back into reserves. The dreadknight got some good shooting in and trashed some terminators and the knights got stuck since the other 2 players rushed ahead to shooting before they'd moved, so they were mostly ineffectual. Lots of fire went into the shielded bunker and the baneblade formation, but the shield didn't drop and the baneblades weatherd the shooting with relatively light losses.

A stormtalon was downed at some stage, though I missed why/how, I think a combination if knight warden and one of the other knights with the AA autocannon.

Score 1 point for the far objective.

2:1 to Team 1

Spoiler: Turn 2

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Team 1
Our marine player is the only one to remember we all have a finest hour, and pops his, getting doubled toughness and strength this turn.

The stormwing begins their murderous, but slow, run down the board, taking out the forgotten knight with a brutal volley of fire. The dakkajet causes havok among the enemy stormwing and the bomber flies over the baneblade, but forgets to drop his bomb, while the Fire Raptor drops a predator and takes out a stormtalon.




The achillies and a pair of talons drop the plasma obliterator down to 2 hp and AV 11 with a pair of penetrating hits and 2 of the ad lance break off to pummel it further, demolishing it and causing some hits on the termies who are now disembarked. 1 paladin stubbers the GK libby who was ditched by his squad and the other tags the vanguard vets threatening a shadowsword. The sarge tanks 5 battlecannon shots on his stormshield after most of his squad is killed, but eventually he and the remaining marine fall to heavy stubber fire. The remaining ad lance member sticks around to claim the knight objective.

The vindicators shuffle around, but their fire is relatively ineffective, only killing a few marines and putting a glance on the shield generator and taking 1 wound off the thunderfire cannon. The terminators and chapter masters assault and kill some marines and friends and the gorkanaught blasts the terminators, killing most of them, with the 1 remaining guy failing morale.

The Gorkanaught assaults the terminators, finishing them off, One Paladin fails his 6" charge against the termies, even with a re-roll while the other paladin assaults the libby, achieving nothing, but then stomps him out with no saves, following up with 2 more, killing 1 GK terminator and then stomping 4 more out with no saves.




Score 1 point for the knight objective, 1 point for the middle objective, 1 point for an imperial knight and 1 point for the GK players warlord

6:1 to Team 1

Team 2
Our Guard player pops his shield generator asset onto the bunker. The terminators come on again, DS'ing near one of the baneblades. The dreadknight assaults the terminators and gets its face punched in. The Baneblade manages to drop one of my stormtalons with a pair of heavy bolter sponsons! The knights mill around, moving up but generally being blocked by terrain and other units. The legion of the damned comes in and takes 2 hull points off 1 vindicator, destroying the demolisher cannon.

The marines who had come in via pod and DS also get to punching the baneblades and shadow swords. The stormraven goes into hover and drops off the assault cents, an apothecary and vulkan along with Brayath ashmantle who makes a pain of himself, causing 5 hp on a baneblade while the assault cents fail their charge.

The knights shuffle around, taking a couple of HP off the various baneblades and securing the middle objective, then charging one of the shadowswords, blowing it up, getting 6's in the explosion and scattering onto one of its mates, causing another 3 hp to him with its explosion!

Score 1 point for the middle objective and 1 point for the far objective and 1 point for a Shadowsword.
Team 1 scores 1 point for an Imperial Knight kill.

7:4 to Team 1

Spoiler: Turn3

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Team 1
Time to gang up on the remaining knights. 2 of the Adlance boys move up whie the 3rd remains to claim the knight objective. The Errant scatters its melta cannon slightly off, the hammernators, killing 1 and removeing 3 HP from one of the baneblades it was trying to save. He punches on with the hammernators in assault afterwards though, dropping a couple and the chaplain and they can't stick any damage.

(From the far side of the table)



The stormraven and remaining 'Talon move up and take another handful of HP off one of the knights while the dakkajet finishes it off. The Fire Raptor removes the remaining 3 hp from the knight damaged by the chain reaction earlier while the (hovering) 'Raven is immobilised by one of the Baneblades and finished off by the combined fire of the vindicators and another baneblade, taking 2 HP off ashmantle and annihilating 1 of the assault cents.

A baneblade on 1 HP attempts to thunderblitz the assault cents, but explodes from the death or glory attempt, taking a single wound off the remaining assault centurion in the explosion. The remaining marines are brutalised by the remaining terminators and the gorkanaught charges an imperial knight, but despite it being on 2 hp, and it rolling 3 hits, it can't seal the deal, getting destroyed by a fist and hurled at our remaining forces to no effect.




Score 1 point for the knight objective, 1 point for the middle objective, 1 point for the knight warlord, 1 point for the each of the remaining 3 knights destroyed, 1 point for vulcan
Team 2 scored 1 point for death-or-glorying the baneblade

14:5 to Team 1

Team 2


The Errant finishes off the hammernators with some more 6's on the stomp table and a few more HP are lost on the baneblades to Brayarth Assman. The legion of the damned remove 2 more HP from a different vindicator, but at least kill the guy with the plasma gun due to overheating.

Not much else of interest here since most of their stuff is dead.

1 point for the far objective.

14:6 to team 1

Spoiler: Break

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Time for Lunch!

Things are looking good for us, I'd say we've got this in the bag barring some major misfortune.

Spoiler: Turn 4

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Team 1
We bring back a shadowsword, a Gorkanaught and a Stormtalon (hey, it was either that or a Vindicator, I hadn't lost anything else!) for free and spend a point to bring back a Baneblade.

The Baneblade and SSword enter midfield along with the gorkanaught while the stormtalon comes on and tries to pop the shield generator, failing miseably. The SSword aims for something mid field, but scatters wildly, hitting the other SSword and my warlord, rolling a 6! for the SSword and a 1! for my knight. Emperor have mercy!

Other than that it's basically clean up with everyone backing away from Assman and then the baneblades tearing him a new one and the final touches on the remaining marines by the vindicators as they continue to try and hide from the legion of the damned and the 2 chapter masters firing their orbitals, finally killing the shield generator. The adlance knights move toards the remaining baneblade and generally towards team 2's table edge in preperation for what's about to happen. 1 adlance knight makes the charge on the baneblade, popping it with a 6 from the reaper chainsword for 10 hull points (and 2d3 hp from 2 other hits but those didn't really matter).

The errant charges into some marines who have been harrying the remaining original SSword, staying locked in combat.

Score 1 point for the knight objective, 1 point for the middle objective, 1 point for the baneblade and lose 1 point to bring our baneblade back on.

16:6 to team 1

Team 2
They bring back 1 knight, the stormwing (even though it's meant to be models returned, not formations) and the Las Cents for free and then spend 4 points getting all the other knights back and 1 points to bring back Vulcan and the assault cents (though this should have been 2 points).

The knights enter in about the same spots as they deployed with the Raven making a rush move to the centr of the board. The thunderfire and LotD combine to kill a pair of vindicators, leaving 1 left alive. The las cents fire on the remaining marine ironclad but fail to kill it. My knights take a few HP, but nothing to actually worry them.




The Errant stomps out the marines (totalling 5/8 stomps rolled as a 6, like a baws!).

1 point for the far objective, 1 point for the middle objective, minus 5 for 4 knights and the Cents brought back on.

16:3 to team 1

Spoiler: Turn 5

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Last turn!

Team 1



The remaining vindy moves to ensure a repeat of 1st turn, blasting the las cents off the table in 1 shot. After a quick points tally, I decide to have some fun since we're going to win regardless and charge 2 of the opposing knights, 1 of which is in the challenge pit! I manage 5 hull points on the forgotten knight, and would have killed him if I hadn't forgotten my hammer of wrath! the other knight turned out to be a disgrace, hitting 3 times and then rolling triple ones, and another 1 for the D-splosion as he was cut down like a bitch. The Forgotten knight rolls up Hatred as his reward for winning the pit duel.

My StormRaven gets lucky big time, popping the opposing 'Raven with the multimelta pen (a 5 on 1 dice due to ceramite) and then another 5 to explode it, causing some strength 10 AP2 hits on the cents and vulcan. 2 cents die and he decides to take the remaining hot on Vulcan but fails his invo and vulkan goes splat! The remaining assault cent is cleaned up by a combination of assault cannon and thermal lance, ensuring the baneblades remain safe.

We forgot to count our points this turn
Team 2 gets 2 points for killing a pair of imperial knights

16:5 to Team 1

Team 2

His knights move up, but are out of range to really cause any damage. a handful of HP are taken across the board, but nothing else that matters goes down. The achillies survives the charge by one of the knights despite it hitting with all 4 attacks, but then we remember stomps and he 6's it out.






16:5 to team 1

GG

Spoiler: Results and Comments

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We started with quite the advantage by having almost double the amount of superheavies they did, and it showed. We also had no trouble killing their infantry models while we brought hardly and infantry models of our own, something I thought would cause us quite a few issue for lack of bubblewrap, but proved fortuitous at the end of the day.

We played much better as a team, and supported each other while the other team played much more as individuals.

Apoc is fun, but draining. Even with a hige battle and lots of superheavies running around, it didn't actually feel any different from a really large game of 40k. In some ways that's good, in others that's actually kinda disapointing. This sort of spectacle should be a special occassion, and the introduction of superheavies and D-weapons into "normal" 40k has taken a lot of that magic away.

I liked how my stuff performed (the knights, stormwing and vindicators), though the plasma obliterator was a disapointment, mainly due to the lack of infantry around to blast. We should have found 34 points to stick an inquisitor with 3 servo skulls in there, but alas, 'twas not to be. Something for next time.

Air superiority was huge here, and we were virtually unopposed, and this gave us a huge amount of leeway to simple run around doing whatever the hell we liked, especially against the knights, who only had 1 AA gun mounted on them.

The baneblades and SSwords were a little dispointing from what I saw, though I did miss much of what happened to them due to too much going on. Still find it a bit crazy that all 3 of our warlords managed to last 5 turns (though my knight errant was on 1 hp by the end). I'm also a bit disapointed that we didn't get more use out the knight arena, but I think part of that was my fault, since I deliberately used my smoke wall card to ensure my opponent culdn't get the charge on me (since he couldn't see me), so he didn't move forwards to allow me the easy charge and ended up destroyed by the stormwing instead and his other knights were already off doing their own thing by that point.

Overall though much fun was had, though one of our opponents for a bit pouty towards the end (though were were removing his models continuously, and often without any saves).

[LeSwordfish]

That's an impressive battle report- and it's interesting that your conclusions for Apocalypse were fairly similar to what I saw when I looked at the army lists - Apocalypse is great, and all, but that looked like super-heavy herohammer. Should I ever run/affect a game of Apocalypse, I think i'll be pushing for a balance of superheavies on each side (possibly even before balancing points).

---

My own game was far less impressive, but I did get time to put together my farseer conversion.

Spoiler: I'm probably going to call her Meabh

Show

I think it came out pretty well - there's a definite sense of speed there, and the larger bike stands out beautifully amongst the ordinary bikers. She's a pain to transport, I expect, but stands out beautifully on the battlefield.

I shan't write up a full report for my game - it was really just a case of watching my opponent's army ignore any and all methods of getting objectives while plinking Bright Lance shots off a land raider - but some notes:

• Everybody was on at me to use Eldricht Storm. Its cool, I guess, but I'd rather throw out Doom and Guide all day.
• Wow, Ghosthelm and Runes make it way easier to get powers off. Aside from one turn, I used both Doom and Guide every single turn, and never had trouble manifesting either. I find myself liking eldar powers a lot - putting a warlock in each Jetbike squad might be a good investment of a hundred points or so. Or another farseer.
• I barely got to fire either the shuriken cannons or laser. His troops choice was scouts in a storm, and they got blown up by the first shots from the cannon. After that it was a land raider and eventually terminators.
• Laser lances are AP3. They're pretty rubbish.
• Oh my god everything is so fast. Like, I knew eldar were fast but everything is like twice as fast as I was expecting. I never really got to take advantage of this, but Maebh proved her worth towards the end of the game by crossing from one corner of the board to the other in two turns, winning me Linebreaker, and killing his warlord with her singing spear.

[Requizen]

On Cult Mechanicus: The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.

Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.

Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.

Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.

Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.

Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.

CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.

I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.

[Drasius]

...it's interesting that your conclusions for Apocalypse were fairly similar to what I saw when I looked at the army lists - Apocalypse is great, and all, but that looked like super-heavy herohammer. Should I ever run/affect a game of Apocalypse, I think i'll be pushing for a balance of superheavies on each side (possibly even before balancing points).

Yeah, our next game will probably have a requirement of min 25% of your force be infantry after speaking to the other players and the TO. Having said that, this was meant to be a tournament (the other teams either failed to show or didn't get enough people) so it was just our two teams battling for bragging rights and gift vouchers.

Todays mission is to finish off my display board that will double as my armies on parade entry. Hopefully I'll also get to detail some of my remaining tanks for Terracon, which is in 2 weeks. Luckily I only have 6 models to paint, unfortunalely, 3 of those are HQ's.

[Grim Portent]

I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.

You could take a look at doing a Dark Mechanicus themed R&Hs army, you can use most of the admech minis in some fashion and can emulate the basic profile of the skitarii. It'd play like a mixture of Imperial Guard/Astra Militarum, Chaos Marines and Skitarii. You'd lose the cult mechanicus/skitarii special rules, unique weaponry and artifacts, but the look and some of the playstyle would be there.

Means you only have to buy one book, but that book does cost a bit more than both the skitarii and mechanicus codexes would.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that if/when the Tzeentch equivalent of Khorne Daemonkin gets released Tzeentch may become the best army for divination spam. Cheap Tzeentch Heralds in every HQ slot buffing stuff could be pretty nasty if they could join non-daemon units.

[JNAProductions]

So I got charged by an Imperial Knight today.

And then I one-shotted it at I10 with a Daemon Prince.

That's all. Just very happy to say George (my Daemon Prince) is actually doing well.

[Cheesegear]

So, we played out our team Apoc game today. This won't be quite as extensive a battle report as normal, since it's hard to keep track of 9k per side, difficult to get a decent photo with all the carnage and hard to remember to take pics as often as I should.

I don't care. Apocalypse is the best.

[Army Lists]

Except then both teams did it wrong.
As you've noticed, both teams seem to be focusing on Vehicles and Super-Heavies. I'm not surprised at all that you found the game lacklustre. With Lords of War and Str-D becoming a standard part of the game, the 'purpose' of Apocalypse has changed in 7th Ed. Apocalypse games are no longer for putting your biggest and scariest models on the table, because, well, you can do that anyway. Even in low point games. A 400-Point army can now consist of exactly one Knight. Didn't bring 400 Points worth of Melta weapons? Too bad. Stomp, Stomp, Stomp.

Apocalypse, in 7th, is all about the Formations and Strategic Assets. Because those are what makes Apocalypse special, now. Using broken Formations to completely gib your opponent's army. This is why, in the past, smart Apocalypse players generally limit Super-Heavy point allocation - especially those with Ranged Str-D. But, I don't know how that plays in 7th Ed., with Knights (and now Wraithknights) being a fixture in most people's competitive collections. I wont be playing my first Apocalypse/7 game until this June/July. But, still. It's good to know that too many Vehicles still makes the game boring.

Set Up was Dawn of War on a 12x4 table

wat
Should've been 8x6.

We bring back a shadowsword, a Gorkanaught and a Stormtalon (hey, it was either that or a Vindicator, I hadn't lost anything else!) for free and spend a point to bring back a Baneblade.

16:5 to spoiler
GG

Was it though? It seems like it was terrible and/or boring for the other team. Because, to me, the game was pretty much won during list creation. I have no idea if you planned it, or the other team just scrounged up whatever they could and put it on the board. I count four Formations on Team 1, and two on Team 2. Each team has an instance of the same Formation, and I'm pretty sure the ALF and Baronial Court cancel out. Leaving Team 1 holding the MFing Baneblade Formation (!) and a Linebreaker Squadron. I mean, the only thing that's missing is a Steel Host, and then you'd have all the best Vehicle Formations in your list.

I don't know. Apocalypse is meant to be the most fun game, because you can do anything you want, and you play with all your friends at the same table. I'm not saying it's anyone's 'fault', per se. But Apocalypse games take a long time - an entire day. I'm just saying that if I had been on the losing team, I wouldn't have had fun, like at all. The BatRep just looks like a curbstomp - and that's fine for the winners, not for the losers, though.

Did you pick teams beforehand, plan out your lists? Or did you just rock up on the day, pick your best friends, and hope your lists worked? Typically, when I play an Apoc game in-store (as opposed to in my house on the floor), I deliberately put myself on the team with more newbs/noobs in it, hopefully I can carry the team and make it a good game. But, that's me, IRL, where I have to deal with actual people that I'll probably see again next week. Online, though...I can tell people that their list is bad and that they should feel bad. Like most, I'm different IRL than I am online, but, I generally hope that my actual personality shines through online more than it doesn't.
...Unless I'm dealing with a certain poster, that person makes me mad.

Apoc is fun, but draining.

QFT.

This sort of spectacle should be a special occassion, and the introduction of superheavies and D-weapons into "normal" 40k has taken a lot of that magic away.

Yeah. But it's for the good of the game. ScreamerStars are still totally powerful, LychStars are infuriating. Twilight ThunderStars run roughshod over everything. What else are you supposed to do if not Str-D? Get GW to properly balance their game? Ninja, please. That's never going to happen.

Air superiority was huge here, and we were virtually unopposed, and this gave us a huge amount of leeway to simple run around doing whatever the hell we liked, especially against the knights, who only had 1 AA gun mounted on them.

I noticed.

Overall though much fun was had, though one of our opponents for a bit pouty towards the end (though were were removing his models continuously, and often without any saves).

I wouldn't blame him. I've been in those games before. Where I feel like "Why did I even show up?", and that's just in 1750/1850 games. I couldn't imagine how it would feel at the end of an Apoc game. Like you said, Apoc is draining, especially for the losing team. Somehow I'm yet to have a truly bad experience with Apocalypse. All of my gaming group friends who still play 40K still love playing Apocalypse, and Apoc games in store with 'randoms' are generally pretty good, providing the teams aren't b0rked - and that's simply a case of knowing who the best players/armies in the PUG are, and not putting them on the same team.

[Drasius]

Except then both teams did it wrong.
As you've noticed, both teams seem to be focusing on Vehicles and Super-Heavies. I'm not surprised at all that you found the game lacklustre. With Lords of War and Str-D becoming a standard part of the game, the 'purpose' of Apocalypse has changed in 7th Ed. Apocalypse games are no longer for putting your biggest and scariest models on the table, because, well, you can do that anyway. Even in low point games. A 400-Point army can now consist of exactly one Knight. Didn't bring 400 Points worth of Melta weapons? Too bad. Stomp, Stomp, Stomp.

Keep in mind, this was a tournament event, with teams organised beforehand a month in advance. There was an entry fee and the winning team got the combined entry fee. Originally intended as 4 teams of 3 with 2 rounds, but 1 team pulled out and another lost 2 players 2 days before, so it was decided that the 2 remaining teams would simply play a game to decide the winners. This wasn't intended as a "Friendly" match.

Apocalypse, in 7th, is all about the Formations and Strategic Assets. Because those are what makes Apocalypse special, now. Using broken Formations to completely gib your opponent's army. This is why, in the past, smart Apocalypse players generally limit Super-Heavy point allocation - especially those with Ranged Str-D. But, I don't know how that plays in 7th Ed., with Knights (and now Wraithknights) being a fixture in most people's competitive collections. I wont be playing my first Apocalypse/7 game until this June/July. But, still. It's good to know that too many Vehicles still makes the game boring.

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't boring, ther was lots of crap happening everywhere, and if they had've taken loads of infantry and stuck them in the multitude of ruins available, or if the knights had fought it out in the area as designed, then things would have gone very differently. As it was, the other side played poorly, didn't communicate and brought a weaker list to a tournament match.

wat
Should've been 8x6.

'Twas 6 tiles long and 2 across, basically 2 normal game boards stuck short end to short end. Seemed odd to start that close, but I figured it was so people could actually reach the middle of the board, and also so there was room to actually deploy stuff without everything being packed in together like sardines.

Not sure what you're disaproving of here?

Was it though? It seems like it was terrible and/or boring for the other team. Because, to me, the game was pretty much won during list creation. I have no idea if you planned it, or the other team just scrounged up whatever they could and put it on the board. I count four Formations on Team 1, and two on Team 2. Each team has an instance of the same Formation, and I'm pretty sure the ALF and Baronial Court cancel out. Leaving Team 1 holding the MFing Baneblade Formation (!) and a Linebreaker Squadron. I mean, the only thing that's missing is a Steel Host, and then you'd have all the best Vehicle Formations in your list.

I don't know. Apocalypse is meant to be the most fun game, because you can do anything you want, and you play with all your friends at the same table. I'm not saying it's anyone's 'fault', per se. But Apocalypse games take a long time - an entire day. I'm just saying that if I had been on the losing team, I wouldn't have had fun, like at all. The BatRep just looks like a curbstomp - and that's fine for the winners, not for the losers, though.

Did you pick teams beforehand, plan out your lists? Or did you just rock up on the day, pick your best friends, and hope your lists worked? Typically, when I play an Apoc game in-store (as opposed to in my house on the floor), I deliberately put myself on the team with more newbs/noobs in it, hopefully I can carry the team and make it a good game. But, that's me, IRL, where I have to deal with actual people that I'll probably see again next week. Online, though...I can tell people that their list is bad and that they should feel bad. Like most, I'm different IRL than I am online, but, I generally hope that my actual personality shines through online more than it doesn't.
...Unless I'm dealing with a certain poster, that person makes me mad.

Again, tournament. The Ad Lance and Linebreaker were both mine (along with the stormwing), and I've never run Ad Lance before (hell, my knights only ever come out for select tournaments since the meta up here is so casual), while the vindicators were both CSM vehicles taken out for a spin since I couldn't get my 5th knight together so I could run an Exalted Court. I even dedicated the Ad Lance to the knight pit, despite being unable to use most of their rules beacuse I loved the idea of a knight vs knight area, but the other knight player piked out, so I blasted his stuff with my stormwing instead. All 5 baneblade chassis belong to our guard player (who also runs DA and is participating in our escalation leage by building his Ravenwing side since he's already got a large deathwing force), and he has every intention of getting more BBlade chassis. I'm just surprised he didn't take his deathstrikes, and the only reason his newly purchased Reaver wasn't there is because he hasn't finished assembling it.

Yes, we planned out our list, but we also had no idea what we were up against. We expected more infantry, and nowhere near as many knights (while everyone knew I would be taking at least my original 4 knights and the guard player was always going to be taking his 5 baneblades). Also keep in mind, the 3 people on our team are all store regulars and fairly friendly, while the other 3 only come in occassionally and never stick around for more than about half an hour.

In fact, I'd never have even known there was a linebreaker formation except for you telling us about it, so that's partially your fault By the way, yes, it is pretty awesome

Yeah. But it's for the good of the game. ScreamerStars are still totally powerful, LychStars are infuriating. Twilight ThunderStars run roughshod over everything. What else are you supposed to do if not Str-D? Get GW to properly balance their game? Ninja, please. That's never going to happen.

That's the thing, bar 1 or 2 people up here, none of those things get run and the roughest things we regularly face is a white scars biker list or Draigo-GravCents (both run by the same player), or a generic Tau netlist (again, run by the same player). I have the option to run screamerstar and don't, simply because I don't think it would be fun to play against. No-one who actually plays at the store or at the club really runs space wolves anymore, and even then, the thunderstar was limited to SW only. In recent weeks another player has discovered Orikans Lychstar and has smashed face for a couple of games before being beaten by objectives a couple of times in a row and has gone back to a more balanced list.

An Ork kan army and a ravenguard army with invisible shootynators are a staple of one of the best players we have up here, simply because he likes the models and he regularly wins >75% of his games. That's the sort of meta we have, casual in the extreme. Hell, I struggle to be an average player on my best day and even I have slightly above a 50% win rate with Thousand Sons! For metas where people are supercompetative D-Bags even in pick up games, yes, D helped level the playing field, but it wasn't really needed up here.

I wouldn't blame him. I've been in those games before. Where I feel like "Why did I even show up?", and that's just in 1750/1850 games. I couldn't imagine how it would feel at the end of an Apoc game. Like you said, Apoc is draining, especially for the losing team. Somehow I'm yet to have a truly bad experience with Apocalypse. All of my gaming group friends who still play 40K still love playing Apocalypse, and Apoc games in store with 'randoms' are generally pretty good, providing the teams aren't b0rked - and that's simply a case of knowing who the best players/armies in the PUG are, and not putting them on the same team.

Again, not a PUG. Besides, two of the players were a father/son pair who came in one day, excited to have discovered screamerstar ~6 months after it became popular and were gleefully explaining to myself and the blackshirt how they were going to crush us all with their invincible combo. While I may not run the strong stuff myself, I'm at least generally aware of what's currently the new hotness and the blackshirt and I regularly discuss the latest broken combos in a punpun-like theoretical manner. The father isn't exactly the model friendly player either. At the end of the day, if you place dev cents standing out in the open, in range of vindicators twice in the same game when there was plentiful cover less than 3" away, you kinda deserve what you get.

[Cheesegear]

Keep in mind, this was a tournament event, with teams organised beforehand a month in advance.

Well, that's me told. If it's a tournament-style game, and you crushed them...Good. Especially since you've also pointed out how terrible their teamwork was.

[Renegade Paladin]

The last Apocalypse game here, one side (mine) actually spend a week planning and coordinating army lists, and the other just threw whatever they wanted at the table and flatly ignored the new (to the local meta but not the game) player who was trying to make some sort of plan. We crushed them by turn 2 with a massive coordinated airstrike and orbital drop. It was a perfect illustration of Sun Tzu's principle of the general who goes to battle and then tries to win as opposed to planning to win before going to battle losing nearly every time. I kind of felt bad for them, actually, and I wasn't even doing most of the removing - my heavy strike was the turn 2 followup with Valks and storm troopers (otherwise known as "plan B"), after the twenty or so drop pods full of Marines had already done most of the heavy lifting. (Plan C, in case you're curious, was all the superheavies we left in the backfield to soak up turn 1 fire while we waited on our reserves rolling up and doing their thing. )

[LeSwordfish]

Does competitive apocalypse work? At all?

[Grim Portent]

Got to have a game against Necrons today. Decided to try my idea for 3++ Khorne Daemons on my Bloodthirsters. The Daemon Prince is a sadly weak link, and while the 1stWfA Land Raider will become part of my regular list I think I shall leave out the non-Daemonkin detachments.

Overall all that the game really taught me was that Allies are a really bad thing for Daemonkin, while you don't lack for Blood Points because of how easy they are to get, your non-Daemonkin are very fragile and poor in assault since they don't get the buffs and it drags down the force multiplication effect.

Daemonkin Cultists are great when given Furious Charge though. They cost so little and they get ignored right up until they smack into something with all the force of assault marines for 1/3rd the price.

Bloodletters with FnP are also really nice to have around. Surprisingly tough, they Deep Strike and they hit like Berzerkers for almost half the points. A few units are a good way to bulk out a Slaughtercult.

[thedavo]

Balancing of larger Super-heavies (anything with >6 HP) is important in Apocalypse. The two games I've played this year went very differently, partly, I think due to the way Super-heavies were balanced.

Game 1 had on one side:

2x Revenants (in an Apoc formation)
Phantom
Cerberus Tank Destroyer
Knight

other side had:

2x Reaver Maniples (one with full turbolaser loadout, one with a mix of everything else)
Baneblade
Shadowsword
Knight
Praetor

Ended in victory for the Eldar side, Holofields are filth.

Second one, they had a Reaver and a mountain of (8?) Knights, we had 3 of the Daemon Lords, a Knight and a Scorpion. Ended in victory for us as the Daemon Lords are horrible, and the opposing team didn't roll a single 6 for D weapons for the whole game.

[Grim Portent]

So FW has experimental rules up for a Chaos Daemons/Khorne Daemonkin LoW.

link to rules

He penalises enemy reserve rolls, makes blessings harder to cast and halves the leadership of non-stubborn non-fearless units in combat with him or assaulting him.

He's not a gargantuan or a flier, which is a pity, but T7, W6 and a 5++ isn't bad, especially if you use the Daemonkin book to give him a 5+ FnP roll.

Lack of EW still makes me sad though.


Overall I'm not impressed by his personal killyness, though that's not bad it's just not better than a 'thirster, but his reserve and psyker penalties are interesting since KDkin can't really do much to interfere with either normally.

[Cheesegear]

Does competitive apocalypse work? At all?

It actually does. All the bulls* actually cancels each other out. You have the points to pay for pretty much anything you want, which means you have all the tools you need at your disposal, should you want to use them. Anti-Tank, done. Anti-Infantry, done. Couple of Skyfiring units just in case...And I still have 2500 Points left...

The difference is lopsided games make the game unFun. Except I don't really see how that's different to normal 40K. The only difference is, Apoc games take the entire day to play, and generally only roll around once every so often. So, people tend to notice that 'Apoc sucks', because they only ever play it once every six months, and every time has been terrible. But, Apoc is only a matter of scale, nothing else in the game changes (especially since Super-Heavies and Gargantuans are normal, now). If you want the real Apoc experience, you need to play, around 10 games to get it right - just like normal. But, each game is a day long...People tend not to bother.

I love Apocalypse.

EDIT:
It's like asking if the Commander format of MtG is competitive. It's supposed to be the super-casual-get-your-friends-together-and-play-with-whatever-you've-got format. But, if you try even a little bit, you can break Commander so hard.

[Requizen]

So, I was thinking about putting Tempestus Scions with Cult Mechanicus for extra ObSec bodies, and the more I think about it the more I realize that Skitarii are basically Scions 2.0. Simiar or better bodies, similar or better special weapons, similar or better special rules and formations, actually have relics, etc.

The only plus that MT has is that it has transports in it and the Scions have Deep Strike. Otherwise I don't see a reason to take Scions over Rangers/Vanguard.

[Manticoran]

Honestly, looking at Admech, I'm mostly not sure why you'd run them with Skitarii over running them with a heavy mech IG list or something. The good units are your super-tech-priests and your MCs, both of which look like they'd do better in a list that already is full of tanks rather than the Skitarii blend of light walkers and light infantry.

[LordDavenport]

It's like asking if the Commander format of MtG is competitive. It's supposed to be the super-casual-get-your-friends-together-and-play-with-whatever-you've-got format. But, if you try even a little bit, you can break Commander so hard.

And much like commander, if most of the players want to be friends and not bring broken stuff... games get long and boring.

It is actually fast and interesting with 2 or 4-5 people playing turn three combos.

[thedavo]

Honestly, looking at Admech, I'm mostly not sure why you'd run them with Skitarii over running them with a heavy mech IG list or something. The good units are your super-tech-priests and your MCs, both of which look like they'd do better in a list that already is full of tanks rather than the Skitarii blend of light walkers and light infantry.

Well, in the fluff they'd be backed up by the Forgeworld's PDF, Knight Households and Titans...

[bluntpencil]

So, I was thinking about putting Tempestus Scions with Cult Mechanicus for extra ObSec bodies, and the more I think about it the more I realize that Skitarii are basically Scions 2.0. Simiar or better bodies, similar or better special weapons, similar or better special rules and formations, actually have relics, etc.

The only plus that MT has is that it has transports in it and the Scions have Deep Strike. Otherwise I don't see a reason to take Scions over Rangers/Vanguard.

Deep Strike with Move Through Cover is much better than regular Deep Strike, too.

[Requizen]

Deep Strike with Move Through Cover is much better than regular Deep Strike, too.

Yeah, but even with that they're 1 point more per model than Rangers, 3 more than Vanguard, both of whom will have Scout in most cases. Sure, there's a comparison to be made. AP3 guns vs Radium/Cancer guns or Galvanic Rifles, Melta/Hotshot Volley options vs Haywire, Orders vs Doctrinas, but in all comparisons the Scions seem to come out slightly on the worse, or at best, more situational corner. I mean, if the Taurox Prime was a sick good vehicle and not essentially just a slightly less good Razorback, or the Valkyrie was actually a super strong flyer, maybe we'd be in business, but they're both just not super great.

I dunno, I feel like Skitarii come out quite a bit better in most comparisons unless you particularly want your force to have affordable flyers... in which case Valkyries still aren't that great.

Meh, I still don't have more than like 500 points worth of Scions, so it's not big deal to me, just making the comparison seemed really awkward when I thought about it.

[Cheesegear]

Building on a Budget: Tyranids

Tyranids? On a Budget!? You have to be kidding, right? Well, you can probably skip to the end and look outside the spoilers and see...
Either their big models are expensive, or their small models are cheap in points. There's no way this can be east on the wallet, is there? Tyranids operate kind of differently thanks to their Synapse rule, and if you haven't got Synapse covered, your Tyranid list is just bad, but don't those models cost money? ...Yes, they do. That said...

Let's recap our rules for BoaB.
Rule #1; The goal is to get to 1850 as cheaply as possible, while
Rule #2; Not being bad.

A bad Tyranid list is really easy to build, so let's not to do that.

Okay, first up, let's talk Troops, you're a horde army.

Spoiler: Tyranid Swarm

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Termagants have no good options. Devourers are neat and all, but Termagants already come with Boltguns S4, AP5 weapons, for free. That means that each box of Termagants, at four points per model, have a cost-efficiency of exactly 1.00. That's...Really bad. Well, they do come with a Ripper base, but you're going to need three boxes of Termagants before that actually makes a difference...And you're already paying a dollar per point. You're next Troops unit is Hormagaunts. Adrenal Glands give Furious Charge, and Toxin Sacs give Poison. Both rules benefit Hormagaunts greatly, so, at 10 points per model, is it worth it? ...No. Hormagaunts want to be stepping out of Cover, because they have no Ranged weapons. They want to Charge. Unfortunately, if you want to do that, you need 4+ Armour or better. Which Hormagaunts don't have. They have I5! Well, not really. Move Through Cover doesn't alter the Initiative penalty for Charging through Terrain. "...even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain." - BRB, pg 47. So, that sucks. But, with the game as it is right now, a whole bunch of stuff has 4+ Armour, which means that they don't need to be in Cover, which means that you don't always Charge through terrain. At the end of the day, Poisoned attacks make the Furious Charge Strength increase kind of pointless. So, with Toxin Sacs on, Hormagaunts are 8 points per model (taking into account they don't have 4+ Armour or Grenades), giving them a cost-efficiency of 0.50. Which is actually pretty good, considering.

With that in mind, let's talk about the Tyranid Swarm box.

Termagants (x40) - 160 Points
Hormagaunts (x40); Toxin Sacs - 320 Points
Ripper Swarms (x4); Deep Strike - 60 Points
Gargoyles (x10); Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 100 Points
Carnifex; Heavy Venom Cannon, Bio-Plasma - 160 Points

Total: 800 Points. Cost-efficiency of 0.29. This box, despite it's huge up-front cost, is actually the most efficient box in the whole Tyranid range - yeah, at 0.29. If you can, you should absolutely buy it. As it's established in the preamble, your models are dirt cheap in points, or expensive in currency. The Tyranid range literally does not get better than the Tyranid Swarm box. If you want Termagants, you should absolutely buy this box. If you want Hormagants, it's still a good deal anyway. Then you get Rippers, which are Fearless and Objective Secured, so, not useless. By themselves, a Gargoyle box is 0.80, so the Tyranid Swarm is a good deal there, too. Then you've got a Carnifex standing around, for now, he's solo, so, for right now, we'll make him a Ranged support option. Surely he isn't going to do a lot by himself? Of course not. Lucky for us, the Tyranids also have a second box that is actually a real deal; The Carnifex Brood is a box where one Carnifex is half-price.

Carnifex; Heavy Venom Cannon, Bio-Plasma - 160 Points
Carnifex; Crushing Claws - 135 Points

Total: 295 Points. Efficiency 0.44, and, well, I hate to break it to you, but in the Tyranids' range, 0.44 is actually really good. How sad is that?
You could run triple shooty Carnifexes, but, then what are you going to do to punch Vehicles? Besides, having a third HVC/BP 'fex only takes you to 0.40, and that's really not that much better.

But you're what? 1095 Points in, and you've got no Synapse... That's really bad.

With these deals in mind, let's look at Tyranid Warriors. Since the box comes with options for a Tyranid Prime, and therefore is a box that actually takes two boxes to build a single unit, but also get an efficient Tyranid Prime out of it.

Spoiler: Tyranid Warriors

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Shooty Warriors
Warriors (x3); [Bio-Cannon] - 100 Points

Shooty Warriors are barely okay, at 0.65, only just sneaking under the 0.66 benchmark. Which is actually still pretty bad, because you're on a budget, and we already have a box which contains at least four Troops units, plus more, at 0.29. But, we're trying to nab a Prime, here. So let's include that.

Tyranid Prime; Miasma Cannon, Norn Crown - 190 Points
Warriors (x5); Barbed Strangler - 160 Points

0.37! That's...Better. Noting that you only get one of these units. Even if you went with a second Prime, the Bio-Artefacts are unique so you can't make it a second time. Still, at 0.37, with Synapse.

Melee Warriors
Warriors (x3); x2 Rending Claws, x1 Lash Whip and Bonesword, Flesh Hooks - 132 Points

0.52 isn't great. Hormagaunts are cheaper. So what happens when we add a Prime?

Tyranid Prime; Lash Whip and Bonesword, Maw-Claws, Flesh Hooks - 160 Points
Warriors (x5); x4 Rending Claws, x1 Lash Whip and Bonesword, Flesh Hooks - 210 Points

0.37 again. If you wanted to, you could even give them Toxin Sacs, for Poisoned, Rending attacks, taking them to 0.34. But, we only get one of those units. 4+ Armour and Grenades, and Synapse. They're better than Hormagaunts by miles. The only issue is that a S8+ Large Blast weapon (or multiple Missiles) is going to kill all of them if they're out of Cover. But that's not really different to anything in the game at all. Or, you could just be a good player, and put Termagants in front of them so your Warriors always have a Cover Save. Only question is whether or not a Prime+Warriors is cheaper than a Hive Tyrant - or Swarmlord. Still, the Melee Warriors are the better choice for our current purposes for the same reason the Carnifex with Crusher Claws is needed.

Spoiler: List Building Process

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Well, for starters, if you've been reading Tyranid Army Guides in the internet, you most assuredly have heard about how amazingly great Hive Tyrants are, well, bad news. For you, on a budget, the Hive Tyrant kit is really poorly optimized, and if you're on a budget, you just don't have the options you need that makes Hive Tyrants the thing that every Tyranid player is always talking about. You have two Ranged options; a Stranglethorn Cannon and a Heavy Venom Cannon - or Miasma Cannon. These are not strong options. Like, at all.

A Melee-orientated Hive Tyrant with Wings is really poor. You have to drop to the ground to Charge, and then you get shot at and, basically, don't have Wings and want to Charge. A Bloodthirster of Khorne even has an Invulnerable save, and is still terrified of landing on the ground. A walking Hive Tyrant...Is Swarmlord. The same Hive Tyrant kit builds Swarmlord, so you have no excuses not to build him if you want a walking Tyrant. His ML3 gives you more rolls for Catalyst and Onslaught, one or both of these Powers is pretty much required in any good Tyranid list, and the fact that Swarmlord walks instead of Flies, and already comes stock with extended Synapse, he doesn't need to waste Warp Charge trying to cast Dominion because he's too fast for the rest of your army.
While The Swarmlord - and Deathleaper - come in at 0.32, Tyrant Guard are pretty much required if you want to run him, and those things come in at 0.55 - and that's bad. Especially because you really do have those nice Hive Tyrant Wings just sitting there...Taunting you.

(0.38) (W) Hive Tyrant; x2 Twin-Linked Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs, Wings - 240 Points

Lucky for you, you've also got two, maybe even three Carnifex sprues just lying around, waiting for you to use those sweet, sweet Twin-Linked Devourers. Remember how you bought Carnifexes for cheap, and then didn't even use their best weapon...Mostly because an 18" ranged weapon on a model on foot isn't their best weapon, but, a Hive Tyrant isn't a Carnifex. A Hive Tyrant has Wings, and goes fast. Next, we're playing 1850, so we need four Troops units... Wait... I remember;

Termagants (x20) - 80 Points
Termagants (x20) - 80 Points
Hormagaunts (x20); Toxin Sacs - 160 Points
Hormagaunts (x20); Toxin Sacs - 160 Points
Ripper Swarms (x4); Deep Strike - 60 Points

Gargoyles (x10); Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 100 Points

Carnifex Brood (x2); Heavy Venom Cannon, Bio-Plasma - 320 Points
Carnifex; Crusher Claws - 135 Points

With the Hive Tyrant, makes 1335 Points. So, that's your core. Now we've got 500 Points left. The main issue facing the list right now, is what happens to the Carnifex Brood who is sitting in the back of the board once the Hive Tyrant moves with its Flight? IB (Feed)? Don't be stupid. Give them Synapse support. Part of me wants to include a second Flyrant, but, at this point, you've only got one spare set of Devourers, and all other options are dumb. So, no second Hive Tyrant. We also know that Swarmlord is out, since he needs Tyrant Guard to be effective. So, what else have we got? That provides Synapse, and shoots?

Tyranid Prime; Miasma Cannon, Norn Crown - 190 Points
Warriors (x5); Barbed Strangler - 160 Points

Of course! 165 Points left. Best options;
(0.55) Hive Guard (x3) - 165 Points
(0.74) Hive Crone - 155 Points

Both options are very good. Maybe you just have to bite the bullet, and take the Hive Crone, which gives you a second FMC, so your opponent has to deal with that, rather than just focusing down your Flyrant. Spine Banks on your Crusher Carnifex lets you smash someone's face in, since Unwieldy doesn't apply to Monstrous Creatures.
I would also love to give the Tyranid Prime some Rending Claws, just so he can pick up Challenges, but the Miasma Cannon is ****ing stupid, in that in replaces a model's set of Scything Talons, leaving the Prime with a Miasma Cannon and Devourer on a model that can only shoot one weapon per turn. Upgrade to a Deathspitter, maybe? No. Do you see what the Miasma Cannon does. I literally don't know what to do with the last five points. You figure it out. A single pair of Rending Claws on your Warrior unit?

Spoiler: Tyranids, CAD

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(W) Hive Tyrant; x2 Twin-Linked Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs, Wings - 240 Points
Tyranid Prime; Miasma Cannon, Norn Crown - 190 Points

Warriors (x5); Barbed Strangler - 160 Points
Termagants (x20) - 80 Points
Termagants (x20) - 80 Points
Hormagaunts (x20); Toxin Sacs - 160 Points
Hormagaunts (x20); Toxin Sacs - 160 Points
Ripper Swarms (x4); Deep Strike - 60 Points

Gargoyles (x10); Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs - 100 Points
Hive Crone - 155 Points

Carnifex Brood (x2); Heavy Venom Cannon, Bio-Plasma - 320 Points
Carnifex; Crusher Claws, Spine Banks - 140 Points

Total: 1845 Points
Just noting that you have the huge up front cost of the Tyranid Swarm box, and you want to buy the Carnifex Brood box, not two individual Carnifex kits.

Holy crap. Would you believe it, Tyranids only cost $610 AUD, which at 1850, gives the extremely magical efficiency number of 0.33. Who would have thought? No. Seriously. Who? That's almost an identical price point to Blood Angels. In a very interesting twist of fate, if you happen to have Deathstorm, the Blood Angels' BoaB List is very evenly matched with the Tyranids' BoaB List. Go for it.

But what happens if you can't afford the upfront cost of the Tyranid Swarm box? Well, I hope you like Genestealers, and your opponents are stupid, and didn't bring their Template weapons. But, the good units stay good, the cheap units stay cheap. So nothing really happens to the list except for the radical change of Troops units.

Spoiler: Genestealer 'Nids, CAD

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(W) Hive Tyrant; x2 Twin-Linked Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs, Wings - 240 Points
Tyranid Prime; Miasma Cannon, Norn Crown - 190 Points

Warriors (x5); Barbed Strangler - 160 Points
Genestealers (x8) + Broodlord; Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - 191 Points
Genestealers (x8) + Broodlord; Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - 191 Points
Genestealers (x8) + Broodlord; Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - 191 Points

Hive Crone - 155 Points

Carnifex Brood (x2); Heavy Venom Cannon, Bio-Plasma - 320 Points
Trygon; Toxin Sacs - 200 Points

Total: 1829 Points

The list is basically the same. Although with the 'normal' number of four Troops, instead of six, because you haven't spent money on models that will otherwise just sit on the shelf. You still need two Carnifexes if you want to run the only good Flying Hive Tyrant (so you still need a Carnifex Brood box), and those Carnifexes still need Anti-Infantry and Synapse support from the Warriors. Fortunately, the 'Core List' comes in 1256 Points, leaving ~600 Points to play with fun units. Broodlords with Scything Talons and Adrenal Glands are at 0.52, and that's not terrible, and Genestealers really need the help. 1493 Points, gives 357 Points left. Hive Crones are still good.
212 Points left. I wish I could tell you to take a Tervigon, but you're going to have to spend money on Termagants that cost 0 Points, which is the literal opposite of wallet-friendly. You really, really need something to take the heat off of your Genestealers. So...Trygon, I guess?

Which leaves 12 Points left. Three pairs of Scything Talons on the Genestealers to bump up their attacks, I guess? Toxin Sacs on...Something? I honestly don't know. The Tyranid book is really restrictive on what you can and can't do.

This list, is simply not strong. You can't Charge from Infiltrate, which puts you at a disadvantage, since your opponent can Charge you if they roll well, particularly Beast/Cavalry units, like Thundercav, who want you to get close. The other problem is that Genestealers don't have 4+ Armour, so if they step out of Cover and don't make it to Melee - they're Fleet - they're screwed. But, even if they stay in Cover, they don't even have Stealth or Shrouded, and don't even have the option to pick it up, either. Which doesn't even really matter because your opponent just brings a Template weapon and kills all of them, no Saves.

This list breaks Rule #2 - like, a lot. But the only way not to be this list, is to have Termagants or Hormagaunts as Troops. But they're expensive, breaking Rule #1. Genestealers can be good - the list exists! But you have to spend real money on real support units to make sure that they don't all die on the first turn.

$732 AUD. 0.40.
By saving money in the short term by not buying the Tyranid Swarm box, you lose money long-term, on a list, that is frankly, just really, really bad. So, I hate to break it to you, but if that Tyranid Swarm box didn't exist (or eventually goes away), there simply wouldn't be a way to make a Rule #2 list that also follows Rule #1.

[Turalisj]

So after my last match, against Daemons, I'm left wondering... what is Necron anti-air?