Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann

[Grim Portent]

I read somewhere that the stuff that can be used is as follows, after someone emailed FW:

Brass Scorpion
An'ggrath (as long as it's a big enough game)
Daemon Titan (Warhound & Reaver) dedicated to Khorne
Uraka
Blood Slaughterers
Decimator dedicated to Khorne
Ferrum Infernus dedicated to Khorne

So Contemptors of Khorne, Legacies of Ruin, all the tanks and fliers aren't on that list...

I think I'll need to send FW an email myself some time to ask about those.

Nice to see Blood Slaughterers as an option though. They're yet another pseudo dreadnought that's actually good at their job.

[Cheesegear]

I read somewhere that the stuff that can be used is as follows, after someone emailed FW:

A source would be extremely helpful.


In other Chaos-related news;
In regards to my Building on a Budget series, I was thinking back on my WHFB-inspired policy in regards to HQ/Warlord choices, and, how, so far, all my BoaB Guides have generally centred on the biggest HQ models around; Space Marines use Calgar, Tau use Farsight, and Orks use Ghazgkull. So, I was trying to think for which Faction would this not be a good idea? Then, unfortunately, I hit on Chaos Marines.

Tournament Chaos Marines feature Typhus or Kharn - or both, as a matter of fact! And in regular play, I only ever face Ahriman, Juggerlords and non-Unique Sorcerers. I, personally, have not seen Abaddon used once in the entirety of 7th Ed., and only a few times in 6th Ed. So, who here in the Playground has used Abaddon? Or was he used against you? What unit was he deployed with? Was he terrible? Was he amazing? On paper, he's pretty terrifying. But, well, the fact that nobody uses him in my pseudo-competitive Marine meta (everyone loves Chaos and Space Wolves, I've talked about my meta before), and I've not seen him used in any tournament that I've been to, nor seen him in any lists online. That has to mean something, doesn't it?

[JNAProductions]

I'm just waiting for you to hit Tau BoaB, Cheesegear. I've been looking to get into them for a while.

As a side note, these lists are awesome.

[Grim Portent]

A source would be extremely helpful.


In other Chaos-related news;
In regards to my Building on a Budget series, I was thinking back on my WHFB-inspired policy in regards to HQ/Warlord choices, and, how, so far, all my BoaB Guides have generally centred on the biggest HQ models around; Space Marines use Calgar, Tau use Farsight, and Orks use Ghazgkull. So, I was trying to think for which Faction would this not be a good idea? Then, unfortunately, I hit on Chaos Marines.

Tournament Chaos Marines feature Typhus or Kharn - or both, as a matter of fact! And in regular play, I only ever face Ahriman, Juggerlords and non-Unique Sorcerers. I, personally, have not seen Abaddon used once in the entirety of 7th Ed., and only a few times in 6th Ed. So, who here in the Playground has used Abaddon? Or was he used against you? What unit was he deployed with? Was he terrible? Was he amazing? On paper, he's pretty terrifying. But, well, the fact that nobody uses him in my pseudo-competitive Marine meta (everyone loves Chaos and Space Wolves, I've talked about my meta before), and I've not seen him used in any tournament that I've been to, nor seen him in any lists online. That has to mean something, doesn't it?

I can't say I've ever seen him used myself. Kharn, Typhus and Daemon Princes are the most popular chaos marines HQs I've seen.

I think it may be to do with the whole terminator armour thing. For the most part the popular HQs are either power armoured or MCs, Typhus is the exception, but he tends to be shuffling in a 35 model meatshield unit. Abaddon can't really take a meatshield unit like cultists and still have a major impact on the game like Typhus can.

Typhus changes the battlefield just by being taken because of zombies, the fact he performs well in actual play himself is just gravy. Abaddon doesn't do this.

Kharn, Ahriman, power armoured HQs in general, can take Rhinos or run in infantry units to cover ground or are just plain fast. Failing that they can pile into a Land Raider to cover ground and still have a large bodyguard unit when they reach the enemy. Sorcerers can add a lot of buffs to improve their odds of survival. Abaddon doesn't perform quite as well in assault with power armoured guards since he prevents running down fleeing enemies, he can't take rhinos, he's slow, he's a big target. He needs terminator guards and a Land Raider, which is expensive and doesn't perform hugely well, or he needs to deepstrike, which can end tragically.

Daemon Princes can do so many things Abaddon can't do it's not even funny.

If Abby reaches a fight with a decent bodyguard unit then whatever he touches will die. But getting him there is such a hassle and costs so many points compared to other options it's not really that attractive a choice. If we could still reduce/prevent deepstrike scatter I'd probably field him and some termies as part of my World Eaters, as is though he's just too expensive without performing better than Kharn in any significant way.

[Artanis]

I'm just waiting for you to hit Tau BoaB, Cheesegear. I've been looking to get into them for a while.

As a side note, these lists are awesome.

He did Tau on page 2

[JNAProductions]

I'm smart! *facepalms*

Thanks for the link, Artanis.

[Renegade Paladin]

The last time I saw Abaddon fielded was in an Apocalypse game in which there weren't very many superheavies to speak of on either side; just a couple of Baneblade variants each. We just focused enough of our alpha strike on his Land Raider to pop it and then a rune priest made him fall in a hole.

[LordDavenport]

I mean... the other issue is that taking chosen as troops does not matter in the slightest. Chosen are bad, and being objective secured doesn't make them better.

Best unit I can think of for abby is a squad of sleneshi terminators with a FnP banner. 2+/4++/5+++ is fun on top of EW. But... that is a ton of points for something that dies to removal.

[DaedalusMkV]

I've played against Abaddon, once. Unfortunately for him, I was playing Tau and he was all but useless (any Chaos HQ hitting my squads in melee is game over for them, so his immense hitting power was utterly irrelevant), and I killed him pretty quickly. The guy used Deep Strike to deliver him with a unit of Terminators, which didn't work in any meaningful fashion, and I tabled him on turn 3. Not exactly a good showing, that one.


The problem with Abaddon is that he doesn't synergise with anything in the Chaos book. Yeah, he hits like a truck, but he's too slow to justify walking. Which means either Deep Strike (which is not a good idea in an army with no reserve mitigation and almost no Deep Strike support), in a unit of Chaos Terminators (which are kind of bad at anything other than being suicide Melta teams), or he goes in a Land Raider. If he's in a Land Raider, all of a sudden you've sunk 500 points into Abaddon before you even look at bodyguards for him, and by the time you're done you have probably spent around 700 points gambling that you'll be able to get that Land Raider across the board (protip: against a competent player, you won't). In comparison, you could have spent 400 points on a Juggerlord and ten Khorne Bikers and had a unit that hits as hard or harder, is harder to kill, is faster and is more flexible, then grabbed two or three Maulerfiends with the leftover points.

Abaddon himself is totally worth the points. If you can get him into combat, he'll win singlehandedly against almost everything in the game. But since Chaos has no way to do that, he's useless and sees no play. Typhus is Abaddon-light in combat and will beat all but the most hardcore melee threats. Plus, he costs less points, is almost as tough, provides some Psykery and gives you a substantial advantage just for being in your army at all, all for considerably less points than Abaddon. Kharn hits as hard as Abaddon, but costs 100 less points. He's squishy, but that's fine because you have a bunch of other models to take the hits for you (and a unit Champion if you run into someone who might kill you in a Challenge). He provides all the hitting power that Abaddon does at a fraction of the price, and if he needs to he can fit into a Rhino. In short, whatever reason you had to take Abaddon in the first place, either Kharn or Typhus does the job exactly as well or better for less points. If Chaos had, say, Drop Pods, I think we'd see a lot more of him.

[Cheesegear]

If Abby reaches a fight with a decent bodyguard unit then whatever he touches will die. But getting him there is such a hassle and costs so many points compared to other options it's not really that attractive a choice.

I'll reiterate what I'm talking about, though. For BoaB, the primary purpose of the series is to save money. The best way of doing that, revolves around taking the WHFB approach of Infantry-sized models with high points costs. With this idea in mind, in price, Abaddon, Typhus and Ahriman cost the same, but Abaddon costs 35 Points more, putting him .02 below Typhus and Ahriman. Strictly speaking, Abaddon is the 'best' choice, and he also throws out a Preferred Enemy (Marines) aura which may or may not be super strong, depending on your opponent.

But, I'll already tell you now, a BoaB Chaos Marines army will not feature Cultists. They don't go above 7 points per model, and don't have a 4+ Save, and are generally just terrible unless you can have loads of them. Which you can't, because you're on a budget, and buying loads of <7 Point models is the antithesis of that idea. This is even worse for Plague Zombies, since they can't be given upgrades at all, and are literally stuck at 4 Points each. So, then, the question becomes; is Typhus is worth it, knowing that you wont be bringing Zombies? But I guess Plague Marines are still very strong at the end of the day.

However, I mentioned Ahriman. He's a solid dude. When he rolls good Powers, he's phenomenal - any Psyker is, really, but Ahriman has the body of a Chaos Lord, and is ML4. When he rolls bad Powers, well, he's still an ML4, BS5 Witchfire machine - with the body of a Chaos Lord. Knowing that Vehicles kill our wallet, Ahriman lends himself to an all- or mostly-Infantry army due to the way his Warlord Trait works. Infiltrating Terminators = Infiltrating Land Raider.

Also, the way I've been told to use Abaddon is to put him in a unit of Slaanesh with the Icon of Excess. Giving him T5, a 2+ Save and FNP like all the other 'real men' out in the game right now.

[Timberwolf]

I've played Flabby recently. It wasn't really a game that has any statistical significance. He deepstriked with a load of khorne terminators that largely died to a pair of demolisher shots. Then he proceeded to make nearly every single save that I could throw at him for the next 3 turns invulnerable and armour, and waltz through my units until he finally toook a thunder hammer in the teeth from my wolf lord and died, after reducing him to a single wound in 1 round of a challenge. Lucky rolling saved him but he was always going g to be difficult to deal with.

[Cheesegear]

Okay, I've been talking about it for three weeks. I've just referenced it. Also, I can tell this BatRep isn't going to get written to my usual standards. But I know there's at least one person in this thread waiting for it. So here's the rundown.

Strike Force Wraith

Spoiler

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Crimson Fists, CAD (CT: Imperial Fists)
(W) Pedro Kantor - 185 Points Watch Commander Wraith

Scouts (x5) - 55 Points
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points

Sternguard (x10); x6 Combi-Meltas, x2 Meltaguns + Drop Pod - 345 Points
Sternguard (x10); x6 Combi-Gravs + Drop Pod - 325 Points
Sternguard (x5); x2 Heavy Flamers + Drop Pod - 175 Points

Stalker - 75 Points

Sentinels of Terra, CAD (CT: Imperial Fists)
Librarian; Force Sword, Mastery Level 2, Bones of Osrak - 115 Points Codicier Ultionis

Scouts (x10); Boltguns - 110 Points
Scouts (x10); Boltguns - 110 Points

Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers Strike Force (Exterminatus)
Mephiston; 175 Points Epistolary Bana

Scouts (x5); Shotguns - 55 Points

Drop Pod - 35 Points
Drop Pod - 35 Points

Total: 1850 Points

Ahriman's Champions

Spoiler

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Crimson Slaughter, CAD
(W) Ahriman - 230 Points
Sorcerer; Force Axe, ML3, Balestar of Mannon - 135 Points

Cultists (x10); Flamer - 55 Points
Cultists (x10); Flamer - 55 Points
Cultists (x10); Flamer - 55 Points
Thousand Sons (x9); Force Sword, Gift, Melta Bombs - 257 Points

Heldrake; Baleflamer - 170 Points

Havocs (x5); x4 Plasma Guns - 135 Points
Havocs (x5); x2 Autocannons, x2 Missile Launchers w/ Flakk - 145 Points

Chaos Marines, Fallen Champions Formation
Cypher - 190 Points

Chosen (x6); x4 Meltaguns, Melta Bombs - 153 Points
Chosen (x5); x4 Meltaguns, Melta Bombs - 135 Points
Chosen (x5); x4 Meltaguns, Melta Bombs - 135 Points

Total: 1850 Points

Stuff that I can remember

Spoiler

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His army was excellent against mine. I deployed first, and every single one of my units arrives by Drop Pods, or has to Infiltrate. So I deployed nothing but the Stalker, as I'm allowed to. He wins the roll-off to deploy Infiltrators. So, he fronts all his Infiltrators 18" away from my Stalker, as he's allowed to, since I have nothing else on the board. I can not deploy my Infiltrators. He has max board control. The only gap in the board, is the 18" between his closest unit and my Stalker, which I can't deploy in, 'cause then my Infiltrating unit would be within 18" of his unit, so I'm legit screwed. But it is Hammer & Anvil, so I go for some Outflanking instead.

Ahriman's (and Huron's) Warlord Trait has been nerfed in 7th, as Independent Characters don't confer Infiltrate to squads, and vice versa. So if you want to do anything real with it, you need to roll at least a two, one to Infiltrate and Independent Character (Ahriman), and one to Infiltrate a squad. One of the massive failings of the Chaos Marine Codex is the fact that they have no Infiltrators or Scouters. Luckily, Cypher fixes that. By giving Chaos an Infiltrating IC (Cypher), and up to three Infiltrating units (Chosen). The Fallen Champions have Faction: Chaos Space Marines, which therefore makes them Battle Brothers. Which means Ahriman can straight up join the Chosen without any problems at all - because you will never roll less than '1', right? Then, anything you roll after '1' is just a bonus. Depending on opponent, you can Infiltrate the Prescience-casting Sorcerer and the Plasma-Havocs using Ahriman's Trait.

He rolls a '2' on Ahriman's Trait. Ahriman deploys with the Chosen, and with his second unit, he Infiltrates the huge brick of Thousand Sons smack-bang in the middle of the board. With Cypher in. Wait, what? Cypher Infiltrates, y'know. He's Battle Brothers. There's no problem at all. So, here's where it gets good. The Thousand Sons are Fearless, they pass it to Cypher. So far, so good. Cypher, now sits in the middle of the board, thanks to his Infiltrate. The Chosen, however, aggressively forwards, are not Fearless, and they're small squads, so obviously they're going to get shot up and fail Morale checks. However, when they fall back, Cypher has a 'Synapse Creature' ability going on. When the Chosen Fall Back (and they will), they Fall Back into Cypher's And They Shall Know No Fear aura (which Chaos Marines also don't have). When they Fall Back to Cypher's aura, they auto-regroup because that's what ATSKNF does. Remembering that thanks to the Thousand Sons' Fearlessness, and unkillableness, remembering that Thousand Sons have a 4++, and Cypher has Shrouded, which is passed to units, for a 3+ Cover Save. So that 'brick' is literally not going anywhere. There's a Fearless, unkillable Objective Secured unit in the middle of the board, that also passes out an ATSKNF aura. Yeah. That's a thing.

Thanks to his all-over-the-board Infiltrating, I'm only allowed to put my Drop Pods where he's let me. That is, a large area with Havocs on the left, and Havocs on the right, and right in front of his Thousand Sons. I, in Drop Pods, will rarely be in Cover. His Thousand Sons Inferno Bolt my face off, and his 'Vengeance Rounds' don't even Gets Hot! either. Obviously, first turn, he fronts up to the Stalker and melts it to bits. I now have no defense against his Heldake. That AP3 Template is going to murder me. My only 'defense' against it is to drop my 'Pods in my half of the board (it's Hammer & Anvil, so his board edge is a long way away), and get into Assault, where being in Assault makes you immune to Shooting.

I get my Star Unit into Assault with Ahriman. Ahriman Issues a Challenge, because he's Chaos and he has to.
"LOL. Mephiston Accepts."

Forge A Narrative!
"For Terra!" screamed Epistolary Bana. *Rolls for Transfixing Gaze*
"You piss-ant! I was born on Terra! I've lived for over ten thousand years. Nothing you can do will ever hurt me!"

"Iron Arm gives Smash, that means his attacks are AP2. Mephiston doesn't have an Invulnerable. Force. You're dead. Boon roll. Eternal Warrior. Well...That happened."
Cue Ahriman trying to Challenge for next few rounds, and me refusing.

Forge a Narrative!
Ahriman could sense the...Intelligence. There was no other word for it. There was a Power here. A Power at least as old as Ahriman himself. Ahriman could breathe the Warp as most mortal men breathed air. Ahzek Ahriman could smell it. Ahhh...There it was. Ahriman could see the bright soul now that he was this close. A skull. The size of any Space Marine's, but covered in Eldar Runes and glowing ever more brightly the close Ahriman got to it. "Give. It. To Me."

Ultionis keeps bailing on Challenges while the Sternguard and Pedro wail on Ahriman. After that Challenge with Mephiston, Ahriman's got Eternal Warrior, so the Power Fist does not do as advertised.

Finally, at the very end, after the Heldrake and the Thousand Sons have AP3'd all my models to death. It's just Ultionis and Ahriman...And the Skull.

"Emperor Protects!"
Ahriman Perilses while manifesting Iron Arm. ...Rolls a '6' for Warp Surge.
"I HAVE THE POWAH!!!"
My opponent rolls a '10' for Leadership. Is totally fine.
EXCEPT NOT. Cypher gives the Warlord -1 Leadership. TEST FAILED! Ahriman loses his last Wound to Perils.

If I know Cypher...
"Just as planned."
It's just a Doombot anyway, right?

Anyway, I got my arse handed to me by a curveball list that I'd never seen before. One that happens to be particularly effective against mine, because I don't really deploy anything, which gave him free reign of the board due to all of his Infiltrating. I managed to Outflank into his backline and re-roll Boltguns into his Cultists and take his backline Objectives. But he was in the middle and in my DZ and he had First Blood and one more Objective than I did.

Final thought;
"Ahriman's not terrible. He's really, really strong. It's Thousand Sons that are terrible. 23 Points per model is fine, for what they do. It's just that you're paying another 35 Points on top for the Sorcerer, which you really don't need. So running multiple units of Thousand Sons is a terrible idea, 'cause who wants Troops models that are 23 points each? But, if you only take one unit of them, then you can spend the rest of your points on Cultists like a real Chaos player, and you only have to pay for the extra Sorcerer once. In our meta, we've got a whole bunch of Marine players, so either they're all in Drop Pods, so I dictate the game with Infiltrators, and I only let my opponent deploy in the areas that aren't anywhere near Cover, or they're playing White Scars, where my Infiltrators stop Scouters in their tracks. If I'm fortunate to roll Ignores Cover on my Balestar Sorcerer, that's game for White Scars, since they can't Jink anymore, I can deploy with the Thousand Sons, or I can never not have Prescience on my Plasma squad, because it's the Primaris. Ahriman rolls once on Telepathy - if he gets Shrouding or Invisibility, great. Cypher has Shrouded too, so now I have two units. If not, swap for Psychic Shriek. It's WC1, so Ahriman isn't going to deploy less than 18" away, 'cause he Infiltrates all the time. If he moves even a little bit, he's guaranteed to shoot off three Psychic Shrieks. It's WC1, he's BS5. It's not that hard. One roll into Tzeentch, 'cause you have to. If it's Doombolt, fine. It's WC1, too. Shoot that three times. Then two rolls into Biomancy. If I did get Shrouded or Invisibility, I grab Smite. It's WC1. It's got that 18" range. It's AP2, and Assault 4. Life Leech is lulzy, too. There's nothing better than Ahriman with Iron Arm, 'cause Chaos has to Challenge, and with an AP2 Force Weapon, he's pretty much the best." - My opponent.

Basically, the list revolves around being a good player. The list doesn't 'play itself' so to speak, you can't just point and shoot (except when you can). You have to know your pre-battle order of operations.

Generating Psychic Powers: Psykers generate their Psychic Powers before the game begins.
Master of Deception: Nominate up to D3 Infantry units in your army before Deployment.

What Psychic Powers did Ahriman get? What Powers did the Div-Sorcerer get?
What number did you roll on MoD? Do you have a plan to use the Powers you have with the number of Infiltrators you have?
Of course you do. You have Ahriman and Cypher in the same list. If you don't have a plan all the time, always, you might not be playing with the right Characters.

But I think the lynchpin of the list is that you have three unts - plus and IC - Infiltrating before Ahriman even makes his Warlord roll, which the core Chaos book simply just doesn't have. Well, not that you're using the core book anyway, 'cause you need to use the Balestar.

[Drasius]

Nice report CG. As an avid TSons player, I've been looking for an excuse to put Ahriman on the table, but saving 60 points always seems to come 1st. I recall suggesting infiltrating some special weapons a few years back with Ahriman, good to know I was on the right track, just missing the right tools.

Not only that, but we've got an avid DAngles player up here, so we should be able to forge a pretty cool narative for our games. It will also help mightily against our white scars player if your opponents comments are any indication.

1 thing I will note though, is that Ahriman is Ld 10 and has VotLW (+1 ld and hatred marines) while Cypher gives -1.
10 (base) - 1 (Cypher) + 1 (VotLW) = 10. Ahriman should have gone super saiyan instead of dying.

[Cheesegear]

10 (base) - 1 (Cypher) + 1 (VotLW) = 10. Ahriman should have gone super saiyan instead of dying.

Nice try. But it's an old joke. Waaay back from when the Codex was printed.
"When Veterans of the Long War is listed in a unit's special rules, the Leadership increase will already have been taken into account in its profile."

All of the Chaos Marine Special Characters are actually Leadership 9 to begin with.

[Drasius]

lolwot?

Not that I disbelieve you, but have you got a page reference so I can revel in the stupidity of this with my own eyes?

Edit; Nevermind, page 30 of the CSM codex. Man, how stupid is that? So some no-name chump who picks up vets for 5 points can mitigate cypher's -1 but not one of the special named character? Balls. Total, unmitigated balls!

[Cheesegear]

Not that I disbelieve you, but have you got a page reference so I can revel in the stupidity of this with my own eyes?

The Veterans rule itself. Page 30. If the extra Leadership is included in the profile (like it says), then it can actually be argued that originally, the Chaos Marine Characters had Leadership 9.

[Eldan]

A source would be extremely helpful.


In other Chaos-related news;
In regards to my Building on a Budget series, I was thinking back on my WHFB-inspired policy in regards to HQ/Warlord choices, and, how, so far, all my BoaB Guides have generally centred on the biggest HQ models around; Space Marines use Calgar, Tau use Farsight, and Orks use Ghazgkull. So, I was trying to think for which Faction would this not be a good idea? Then, unfortunately, I hit on Chaos Marines.

Tournament Chaos Marines feature Typhus or Kharn - or both, as a matter of fact! And in regular play, I only ever face Ahriman, Juggerlords and non-Unique Sorcerers. I, personally, have not seen Abaddon used once in the entirety of 7th Ed., and only a few times in 6th Ed. So, who here in the Playground has used Abaddon? Or was he used against you? What unit was he deployed with? Was he terrible? Was he amazing? On paper, he's pretty terrifying. But, well, the fact that nobody uses him in my pseudo-competitive Marine meta (everyone loves Chaos and Space Wolves, I've talked about my meta before), and I've not seen him used in any tournament that I've been to, nor seen him in any lists online. That has to mean something, doesn't it?

Can't remember ever seeing Kharn, Ahriman or Abbadon in the last few years. We have a very dedicated Typhus-player, though. One of our mkarine players uses Lysander a lot, the other quite likes Tigurius.

But in general, named characters aren't played much. We have a grognard meta with a lot more fantasy than 40k play, so named characters are seen as at least borderline overpowered.

[Yaktan]

Don't you alternate putting down one infiltrator squad at a time? He can't deny you the entire board with only one squad, then you get a squad of your own before he can put down more.

[lord_khaine]

But in general, named characters aren't played much. We have a grognard meta with a lot more fantasy than 40k play, so named characters are seen as at least borderline overpowered.

Oh yeah i know how that is, back in the last couple of editions there were an almost permanent ban of such noteable names as Eldrath, Merphiston or the sanguinor in my meta.

[Requizen]

But, I'll already tell you now, a BoaB Chaos Marines army will not feature Cultists. They don't go above 7 points per model, and don't have a 4+ Save, and are generally just terrible unless you can have loads of them. Which you can't, because you're on a budget, and buying loads of <7 Point models is the antithesis of that idea. This is even worse for Plague Zombies, since they can't be given upgrades at all, and are literally stuck at 4 Points each. So, then, the question becomes; is Typhus is worth it, knowing that you wont be bringing Zombies? But I guess Plague Marines are still very strong at the end of the day.

I don't remember if your original BoaB mentioned third party models or not, but if you're open to it, Plague Zombies are pretty cheap if you go Mantic. You can get a box of 35 for about $35 USD. I'm generally not one to go for third party manufacturers, but as Plague Zombies don't have an official model outside modified Cultists or the WHFB Zombies, I would make an exception if I started a Typhus army personally.

Don't you alternate putting down one infiltrator squad at a time? He can't deny you the entire board with only one squad, then you get a squad of your own before he can put down more.

Yep. Not much you can do about it now, though. Rematch it!

[lord_khaine]

Yep. Not much you can do about it now, though. Rematch it!

I really hope we get a battle report on this then, cant help but wonder how Cheese can adapt his strategy to deal with this after having gotten a chance to think a little.

[Cheesegear]

Don't you alternate putting down one infiltrator squad at a time? He can't deny you the entire board with only one squad, then you get a squad of your own before he can put down more.

He really can. It wouldn't have made any difference, since all my units come down in Drop Pods except for one since I declared that before Infiltrators, during my Deployment. The only unit I had available was was a single unit of 5 Scouts, with Shotguns, which I Outflanked. His denial of my Infiltrators was not the problem, one unit of 5 would not have saved the game for me, it fact, it's Outflankingness almost won me the game. His denial of my Drop Pods was the problem. Yes. Could I have put Drop Pods in my own DZ, where he wasn't? I could have. But what would have been the point.

EDIT: Of course, I could have had the Drop Pods come down empty, and deployed my Scouts normally. But, I guess that's something to think about. He won the roll-off though, and his first unit down was in the middle of the board in prime position. I can't say that deploying a bunch of my Infiltrators vs. a bunch of his Infiltrators would have helped that much. Mine are Scouts, his are Chosen. Basically, his list is designed to beat a list a lot like mine, since my opponent is playing to his meta; Cheesegear uses Drop Pods. Board denial beats Drop Pods. Infiltrators equals board denial.

EDIT II: Of course, now I know how the list works - if Ahriman rolls Iron Arm, stay away! So, next time, I probably will have my Drop Pods come down empty. But, that's next time.

[thedavo]

I had Ahriman get Iron Arm and Warp Speed in an apocalypse game. He killed two knights in two successive rounds of combat.

[Psychotic]

So, on a whim and a desire to build and paint a giant scary mech, I caved and bought the new Knight codex and a Knight at my FLGS. The kicker is that I don't play competitively (although I lurk plenty of forums), have never used a super-heavy walker, and don't know how to build this thing to get the most bang for my buck. I run Imperial Fists, usually and would like this Knight to occasionally hit the field in support.

My heart says to build a Paladin, Warden or Crusader - but can't decide between the 3. Does anyone in the playground have any thoughts between the 3?

[Drasius]

Crusader is probably a touch overcosted but still pretty good, warden or paladin are both excellent choices. I'd probably lean towards the Warden since you should reliably get ~ 8 hits from shooting while the battle cannon might only generate 6 if your opponent can space his models worth a damn. Also means way more hits vs single targets like monsterous creatures. If your opponents like to deep strike a lot or has lots of medium to heavy tanks though, then the favour swings back into favour of the Paladin or Errant.

I've got 4 that can be swapped between Paladin and Errant, but I think my new one will be a Warden, as there isn't many situations (bar facing off agaisnt other knights) where the gatling cannon isn't a good choice. Warden would also fit thematically with the Fists all bolters all the time shtick.

[hamishspence]

Warden would also fit thematically with the Fists all bolters all the time shtick.

Isn't it more Assault Cannon than Bolt Cannon, what with being rending?

Still fits thematically with terminators though. You could even paint it yellow and give it an Imperial Fist symbol on its banner - since at least one Knightly House (Hawkshroud?) has that color and a long history of teaming up with the Fists (and a few other chapters).

[Drasius]

It's actually a stolen Heavy Burst Cannon stuck on nova charge mode, but without gets hot and 1 better AP.

But yes, I think of it as a super assault cannon. Still fits with the fists better than a battle cannon or thermal lance.

ION: I tried to prove that massed flyrants (5) would do a number on massed heldrakes (3) today, using store dice and rolling it out. I proceeded to roll nothing but 5's and 6's for the heldrake vector strikes, routinely wounding with everything and failing every grounding test for the flyrants while making every 5++ save from the TL Devs. 7 times in a row, I killed every flyrant while taking a combined total of 5 hull points on the drakes. Why can't I have that sort of luck in actual games?

[Grim Portent]

It's actually a stolen Heavy Burst Cannon stuck on nova charge mode, but without gets hot and 1 better AP.

But yes, I think of it as a super assault cannon. Still fits with the fists better than a battle cannon or thermal lance.

ION: I tried to prove that massed flyrants (5) would do a number on massed heldrakes (3) today, using store dice and rolling it out. I proceeded to roll nothing but 5's and 6's for the heldrake vector strikes, routinely wounding with everything and failing every grounding test for the flyrants while making every 5++ save from the TL Devs. 7 times in a row, I killed every flyrant while taking a combined total of 5 hull points on the drakes. Why can't I have that sort of luck in actual games?

For the same reason TSons fail every armour save but pass every invulnerable save.

Dice hate humans.

[Drasius]

For the same reason TSons fail every armour save but pass every invulnerable save.

Dice hate humans.

I'm not sure if this was specifically for me or if you also play TSons, but yes, exactly that. As a TSons player, there is nothing I fear more than boltguns while I welcome the pleasant summer rain of plasmagun fire. Prefered Enemy (Dice) indeed.

[Requizen]

Cult Mechanicus Robots up for preorder! I think I'll definately get a box, this army really hits a good spot with me. Though I don't know if waiting for the AdMech book will be better than just getting Cult Mechanicus now...