Is it just me, or is Spirit Guardians overpowered?

[Ace Jackson]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.

Likewise the guardians flit around your character, you don't direct them to attack, you specifically need to designate who doesn't get attacked at the casting time, and can only specify against those you can see, despite the guardians presumably being incorporeal and thus being able to hit allies or enemies beyond a wall. All the fluff supports that ruling, and if your on a rescue mission it can burn you as much as help. Crunch, that we can discuss, but even there I need to question the wisdom of entry being exclusively voluntary, at the least in regards to moonbeam.

Moonbeam has a specified height of 40 feet, so by name, description of dim light, and dimension. I think the rai might well be for night only casting, if not outdoors, then at with at least 40 ft clearance, because otherwise why specify all that? Or would the druid make the day dark just to fire off the synthetic moonbeams? But supposing at least the 40 ft clearance, how many five foot choke points will you ever really find? That would be a really narrow bridge, or a really tight forest, perhaps, just perhaps, some dense city alleyways. That would make it really, really niche. EDIT: noticed that it's a specified 5ft radius, not 5ft wide column 40 ft high, was under the impression of one square, I see it's in error and cede this argument.

As for the spirit guardians, I could see it being more flexible in the proposed pure defensive stance, however, any enemies with int 8 or higher should be able to at least chuck rocks, which brings us back to concentration requirements, and the issue of usefulness, instead of becoming a living band-aid for the party, you'd basically become a stonewall, arguably thematic as cleric wards evil off and away from his companions, but playing a stone wall would likely be even less fun then the living band-aid.

And lets be honest, in order to really abuse the spell with that ruling, I.E. dashing through the enemies line while not losing concentration somehow, you need to have upwards of 30+ mooks attacking anyway, and if 30+ mooks all get to attack, then your in deep trouble. Even if they only use shortbows while closing distance, that's 30+ shots with chances to crit, up to 30+xd6 damage distributed to the full party will hurt. Yes, there are other options that can help, like a wizard, or light cleric, or bard's fireball, ranger's volley, etc. etc. but are you really going to begrudge anyone's plan in that situation? EDIT: Numbers seem light under the new understanding of scale, I would say inflate them, but at that point your GM is probably just pulling a cinematic anyway.

And if you'd argue that you don't need that many mooks to qualify as an abuse. Would it be any abuse to use it in any situation you'd conceivably use a fireball to clean up as well? It seems like the argument is principally over who should spend the 3d level spell slot.

It has also been noted that it has a ten minute duration, and thus could be used for more then one encounter, while possible, I must also point out that the spiritual guardians are visible, so if in a dungeon crawl, what exactly is stopping the monsters in the next chamber, behind the door the spirits don't care about anyway, from simply scurrying down a level, forestalling the confrontation and making the next encounter even more challenging?

Why wouldn't anyone anywhere try to evade, or at least kite the party in that circumstance? Keeping it up after an encounter only seems to make it more and more of a liability, whether you catch newly arriving allies in the crossfire, townsfolk otherwise hiding in their houses as would be sensible, or warn ambushes of your presence and capabilities.

[Kryx]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.

One could easily justify it that the beam is moving quick enough to not cause damage ala human feet on coals.

But I would rather use the balance factor.

[numerek]

I have made a copy of the graph fixed a few issues I saw with classes getting abilities before they should and fighters not getting extra feats. Then I added a Cleric tab, a lot of the dpr is affected by the "average in aoe" multiplier but really most people consider the first round of combat the most important and being able to affect 2 people in the first round that melee range is achievable is pretty easy and 6+ I would think would be fairly common. My cleric build would be.

20 cleric (light or knowledge for potent spellcasting, probably light since this is a damage build)
starting
8 15 15 10 16 8
ending
8 16 16 10 20 8
variant human
feats resilient constitution & dexterity, war caster, shield master, +4 wisdom
medium armor + shield
I am afb so I don't know if war caster works with sacred flame but that only adds a little to dpr anyway.

The cleric could also be a polearm master with shillelagh nature cleric will probably update to add that in at some point, though it should work out to be about the same.

For those that don't click on the link the spreadsheet shows that the cleric's only competition after reaching level 5 is barbarian and fighter while action surging, after level 10 the barbarian falls behind and never catches back up, and the cleric beats even an action surging fighter for levels 16-19. And those numbers are only assuming the cleric can effect 2 targets there will be many situations where it can effect more targets than that and even at one target the damage is at the top or near the top of everybody besides barbarian and a fighter that is action surging. The cleric is also being conservative with spiritual weapon mostly casting it with 2nd level spell slots and only near the end going up to 4th level.

[Kryx]

The Barbarian only loses on the Action surge round. Every other round the Barbarian is ahead of the fighter by an equal amount as action surge.

Barbarian is better assuming your combats last over 2 rounds. Fighter is better first round only.

[numerek]

The Barbarian only loses on the Action surge round. Every other round the Barbarian is ahead of the fighter by an equal amount as action surge.

Barbarian is better assuming your combats last over 2 rounds. Fighter is better first round only.

Yeah but the cleric can continue for 60 rounds and cast again if the fight is still going. The cleric can lose concentration but the barbarian for most of its career can also lose rage and has fewer rages per day than the cleric has 3rd+ level spells per day except I believe the barbarian capstone(still away from book).

[Giant2005]

And if you'd argue that you don't need that many mooks to qualify as an abuse. Would it be any abuse to use it in any situation you'd conceivably use a fireball to clean up as well? It seems like the argument is principally over who should spend the 3d level spell slot.

I would absolutely call that abuse.
Because of that stupid ruling, Spirit Guardians does the exact same damage as a Fireball in a 3rd level slot and does considerably more than the equivalent Fireball in higher level slots. A spell with a 10 minute duration should never compete in burst damage with an instantaneous effect spell. With that ruling being used, both Moonbeam (Which is even stronger than Spirit Guardians) and Spirit Guardians seriously shame Fireball and Arcane Casters in general. It essentially takes the niche of Arcane casters, removes it from them and gives it to the Divine Classes as just one more niche to add tot heir already niche-packed abilities.

[Luriant]

Today I see this power in use, and for me is very strong, i have the necesary requeriments for using it.
And i see that Caster are more powerful than warriors in 5e, i don't know how we have killed all the rooms in 10 min without using more and more short rests (

Nature Cleric with Half plate and Shield [AC 19] (Warcaster sentinel) Lv5 Con +4 Wis +4
And a druid in the group casting Resistance on me, if i not surrounded.
We clean 3 groups of lizardfolk (4D8 HP, 2*atks) of 6, 10 and 20 at once (the 2 last rooms merge in a group around the party.

Cast the spell, open the door and run to the center, use Action to Dodge. I only lost 20 HP, and Resistance Cantrip help me with the Concentration i failed.
Heal using 20 Goodberry [2 min eating] (druid using all the unused spells yesterday to make 90 berries), open the next door and kill ten more, and more berries, another 20 HP.
The last door the lizardfolk ignore me and attack my friends, but the druid and I using Healing word plus or friends using Dodge can resist enough the fight. (and sentinel for damage a little without compromise my dodge).

A great power if you have the requeriments.
*Enough enemies in the area
*Small area (rooms without escape)
*Great AC (Shield and Medium-Heavy armor a must) OR Sanctuary spell
*Warcaster or proficency in Con saves.

[bdyer]

Not to resurrect an old thread but what about the new paladin oath that allows Paladins to get spirit guardians at a later level?

[Bluemanarc]

I think Spirit Guardians most likely works a lot better with say 4 or 5 Zombies surrounding the Cleric as a meat shield in addition to the tank /s.

Also its better for a Life Cleric or MI Druid or Druid 1 level who can use Goodberry to good affect and provide a lot of bang for his buck in healing.

To be able to then leave spell lots free at L3 and higher to use Spirit Guardians all the time at a high level of affect.

And also maybe use a Variant Human to get Warcaster and Resilient by Level 4.

And run around in Plate and Shield on the front line, using Dodge or Sanctuary if need be, to maintain it for the entire battle.

[Beelzebubba]

ruling makes perfect sense to me. If a moonbeam is dangerous, it shouldn't matter how you get touched by it, it is still dangerous.

Just like a shaft of sunlight and a vampire.

You can move your hand quickly through the flame on the top of a stove without damaging it.

Holding it for six seconds, though...


This thing is not an orbital laser. It's closer to a somewhat big bonfire.

[Spacehamster]

Fighter cleric MC with CON save prof, war caster feat and defensive combat style for +1AC using a shield and full plate should be able to keep it up pretty reliably. :)

[EvilAnagram]

Is thread necromancy no longer frowned upon here?

[Kryx]

Is thread necromancy no longer frowned upon here?

I report the offending post, but these type of things have become more common lately. :(

[Hooligan]

You can move your hand quickly through the flame on the top of a stove without damaging it.

Holding it for six seconds, though...


This thing is not an orbital laser. It's closer to a somewhat big bonfire.

Glad you're such a real-life expert in magic as to set us bunglers straight.

[Lombra]

You could also simply stay in dodge and let your spirit guardians and weapon work the enemy, while you provide a nice wall. Unless the enemy grabs or overruns you. Well nothing is perfect.

[Bluemanarc]

Is thread necromancy no longer frowned upon here?

Hey guys what is "Thread Necromancy" I have never heard of this before, I am new to this specific website.

And frowned upon, not sure what that means either, or why it would be reported

Is it possible their is a rule, for the forum and website, that says you cannot mention a 3rd level spell Create Undead ?

Not being smart or silly, but just asking, is the owner of the website religious and doesn't like the mention of Undead or something.

[Bluemanarc]

I report the offending post, but these type of things have become more common lately. :(

Can you explain further as honestly, I am a little bemused and a lot confused

[Bluemanarc]

Likewise the guardians flit around your character, you don't direct them to attack, you specifically need to designate who doesn't get attacked at the casting time, and can only specify against those you can see, despite the guardians presumably being incorporeal and thus being able to hit allies or enemies beyond a wall. All the fluff supports that ruling, and if your on a rescue mission it can burn you as much as help.

.

You are so right, quite a dangerous spell to try and use for multiple or moving encounters, potentially killing entire villages or slaughtering townsfolk, or large numbers of friendly NPC's.

Especially when I am to be a Life Cleric as well.

On a positive note: it does help to (ooouch very scared to mention this until I found out why its an issue)...
But does help with your Create Undead spell if you want to add a Zombie or two to your group.

[MeeposFire]

Hey guys what is "Thread Necromancy" I have never heard of this before, I am new to this specific website.

And frowned upon, not sure what that means either, or why it would be reported

Is it possible their is a rule, for the forum and website, that says you cannot mention a 3rd level spell Create Undead ?

Not being smart or silly, but just asking, is the owner of the website religious and doesn't like the mention of Undead or something.

Thread necromancy is when you post in a thread that has been inactive for a long time. Essentially you are bringing the thread back to life hence necromancy.

I forget how long the thread needs to be dead but it is in the rules.

[Bluemanarc]

Thread necromancy is when you post in a thread that has been inactive for a long time. Essentially you are bringing the thread back to life hence necromancy.

I forget how long the thread needs to be dead but it is in the rules.

Thanks for that, I just PM a moderator, as I didn't know it was so old, about 5 years, or that you shouldn't do that, and I don't really know how to fix my boo boo....

Thought is was the content "Create Undead" and the necromancy involved that people didn't like, that is good, as I was thinking like "Have I entered the twilight zone".

Why don't they just put something in the website design that stops you being able to post on old threads, is that hard to do ?

[Dudu]

By my math, a level 14 Wis 18 Str 16 Cleric using a Greatsword, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians will inflict 41 dpr if he lands everything (2d6+3+2d8+1d8+4+3d8). And he will have enough spell slots to do it in 6 separate battles. And this ignores the fact that using higher level spell slots means Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will do even more damage.

By comparison, a Greatsword-wielding Str 20 Fighter will be doing 39 dpr if he lands everything (3*(2d6+1+4)).

The more I look at it, the harder it is for me to see how this could be balanced. The only real drawbacks are the concentration checks (which the Cleric can easily make with the right feats) and the fact that Spirit Guardians requires giving up an action on the turn you cast it, which is more than made up for in the face of the extra damage from using it in higher spell slots. Even the Fighter's Action Surge can't make up for that.

Ok, so here is my experience.

I'm currently playing as a Death Cleric, lvl 11. In my party there's also a BM Fighter, lvl 11.

Ya, no way I can outdamage that fighter in 75% of the cases. In the other 25%, we are fighting a horde, in which case my cleric wins.

Here are some things you are ignoring.

1. Your calculations are assuming "every attack hits", when the Fighter already has +2 to hit. That accounts for a lot.

2. Also, BM Fighters might try some maneuver, which adds a lot of damage. Champions can crit more often, again, more damage.

3. Is the fighter purposedly ignoring his most infamous feature, Action Surge? Because again, more damage.

4. The fighter, in a game that allows feat, is attacking with a G Sword without Great Weapon Mastery? Add 10 damage to each hit, bro.

5. Spirit Guardians plus Spiritual Weapon plus Attacking with a G Sword might work for theorycrafting. In reality, if you do that you're probably missing some hits and getting a lot of hit in response. Even if you invested in Resilient Con and Warcaster, you might lose concentration because: a) there was simply too much hit and you got double 1. b) much more likely, you lost concentration because you lost consciousness.
In practice, it's more productive to use your action to dodge during most rounds.

So, to sum it up, you conclude on basis of a poorly simulated scenario. In fact, fighter is so strong a cleric might end up doing more damage with a bless than with spirit guardians. Don't get me wrong, I love spirit guardians, LOVE it, but it isn't broken, just very strong.

edit: Damn, the thread is old. Who is ressurecting those stuff? No wonder the content seemed so naive.

[Theodoxus]

Thanks for that, I just PM a moderator, as I didn't know it was so old, about 5 years, or that you shouldn't do that, and I don't really know how to fix my boo boo....

Thought is was the content "Create Undead" and the necromancy involved that people didn't like, that is good, as I was thinking like "Have I entered the twilight zone".

Why don't they just put something in the website design that stops you being able to post on old threads, is that hard to do ?

It's in the Terms of service, though hardly anyone actually reads it.

I think the reason the mods don't lock old threads automatically is some topics don't have a 'statute of limitations'. Build guides, I know are exempt. Sometimes (the cleric one in particular here) a thread will lay dormant for months, and then someone stumbles across it, requests build ideas, resurrecting the thread for a bit, until the new question is answered and the thread sinks back down.

I haven't seen the mods lock threadamancy in a while though - maybe there's less concern when they migrated to a new server? Not sure - I'm not IT, not even remotely... just a glorified user of tech...

[Bluemanarc]

5. Spirit Guardians plus Spiritual Weapon plus Attacking with a G Sword might work for theorycrafting. In reality, if you do that you're probably missing some hits and getting a lot of hit in response. Even if you invested in Resilient Con and Warcaster, you might lose concentration because: a) there was simply too much hit and you got double 1. b) much more likely, you lost concentration because you lost consciousness.
In practice, it's more productive to use your action to dodge during most rounds.


edit: Damn, the thread is old. Who is ressurecting those stuff? No wonder the content seemed so naive.

I am, Macros the Black, Variant Human Pirate Life Cleric.
We are just starting 5e campaign, after doing 4e since it came out, since we grew up 35 years ago on 2E we realise now that 5e is just new rules for 2e really.

So the Pirate is going to use Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian combo mostly, as he is Life Cleric with Druid dip one level for "Life Berries".
Enabling strong out of encounter healing meaning he can use these more attacking spells.

In your experience you think whacking away on the front line (close to Pally with +3 for Saves) and using Thorn Whip to bring enemies into reach of Fighter, and into Spirit Guardians AOE is good idea, until heat comes on and then Dodge to stay alive.

(L1 Warcaster and L5 Resilient Con)

(DM blessing to keep Plate and Shield despite one level in Druid)

Note: 16 Con and Con Prof. and Pally +3 should mean Auto Saves except on high damage attacks, in your experience how often to those high damage attacks ruin Concentration.

[djreynolds]

Clerics normally have dumped dex, so a well placed AoE usually drops most things.

So get absorb elements, even from a dip it is worth it.

Also if you do slack off wisdom for better concentration with war caster and say resilient con, some of the enemies will pass that save DC and only take half damage from spirit guardians.

So there is some wiggle room there for a DM to beat out spirit guardians.

Its still an awesome spell, one that I used a lot in CoS.

I prefer to wade into combat and then cast spirit guardians. If planned out well, you and your party can feast on AoO from fleeing enemies or pummel the fools who haven't run off.

I really like the combo of war caster, booming blade, and spirit guardians. It is really effective.

[Gignere]

Clerics normally have dumped dex, so a well placed AoE usually drops most things.

So get absorb elements, even from a dip it is worth it.

Also if you do slack off wisdom for better concentration with war caster and say resilient con, some of the enemies will pass that save DC and only take half damage from spirit guardians.

So there is some wiggle room there for a DM to beat out spirit guardians.

Its still an awesome spell, one that I used a lot in CoS.

I prefer to wade into combat and then cast spirit guardians. If planned out well, you and your party can feast on AoO from fleeing enemies or pummel the fools who haven't run off.

I really like the combo of war caster, booming blade, and spirit guardians. It is really effective.

How did you get booming blade?

[djreynolds]

How did you get booming blade?

Grabbing magic initiate is the easiest way. Its a sweet combo.

But an Arcana cleric can do it also, and at 8th level add his/her wisdom to it.

[Bluemanarc]

Clerics normally have dumped dex, so a well placed AoE usually drops most things.

So get absorb elements, even from a dip it is worth it.

Also if you do slack off wisdom for better concentration with war caster and say resilient con, some of the enemies will pass that save DC and only take half damage from spirit guardians.

So there is some wiggle room there for a DM to beat out spirit guardians.

Its still an awesome spell, one that I used a lot in CoS.

I prefer to wade into combat and then cast spirit guardians. If planned out well, you and your party can feast on AoO from fleeing enemies or pummel the fools who haven't run off.

I really like the combo of war caster, booming blade, and spirit guardians. It is really effective.

We are just using core rules so don't have Booming Blade option unfortunately.

What is your point at start re Cleric dumping Dex and AOE dropping stuff, not quite sure what you mean.

"Obsorb Elements" - what is the benefit of using that, I read it a couple of times but it didn't seem ? that great to me.

Yep the cost of Warcaster L1 and Resilient L5 is that Wisdom does not get to 18 until L9 - not to bad ??
And not to 20 until L14.

Hard to say if its more affective to take Wisdom earlier, and if so, which of the other 2 feats would be best to delay taking.

But at least by going Variant Human that feat at L1 does make it easier all round.

[90sMusic]

Hrm... 3d8 per round and needs concentration and to be within 15 feet of any enemy I want to affect...
Or 8d6 in a 20 foot RADIUS, at a distance of 150 feet...

Yeah, i'll take fireball. Every day of the week.

To even hit multiple targets, the cleric would have to position themselves in the center of a group of enemies, surrounding themselves. Even if concentration weren't a factor, how many enemies are going to let a healing magic user just stand in the middle of a group of them and not swarm it? They'd have to be pretty stupid not to.

Fireball does more damage and is much safer to use.

I see zero problem with this spell. Meanwhile, Heat Metal does 2d8 damage per round that is unavoidable and your save just determines whether or not you drop your weapon on the ground. And if it can't drop it, it has disadvantage on attacks.

Magic is strong yo. Not sure why you're singling out random spells but a lot of them are powerful.

[djreynolds]

We are just using core rules so don't have Booming Blade option unfortunately.

What is your point at start re Cleric dumping Dex and AOE dropping stuff, not quite sure what you mean.

"Obsorb Elements" - what is the benefit of using that, I read it a couple of times but it didn't seem ? that great to me.

Yep the cost of Warcaster L1 and Resilient L5 is that Wisdom does not get to 18 until L9 - not to bad ??
And not to 20 until L14.

Hard to say if its more affective to take Wisdom earlier, and if so, which of the other 2 feats would be best to delay taking.

But at least by going Variant Human that feat at L1 does make it easier all round.

If a DM is looking for a way to break the concentration of a cleric, normally dex saves could be a weakness for clerics and most will fail their saves or at the least take half damage. Most AoE spells are usually of the elemental damage type

Absorb elements is an awesome reaction spell, like the shield spell. Its from the EEPC.

The spell captures some of the incoming energy, lessening its effect on you and storing it for your next melee attack. You have resistance to the triggering damage type until the start of your next turn


So the minute the DM drops a fireball on you, you can use your reaction to half this damage. Not bad, the extra melee damage is nice also. So basically you give up a 1st level spell, and can half the damage of any sized fireball until your next turn

Now it is a wizard, druid, or ranger spell... so a 1 level dip of druid and you can grab this.

So if possible try to get this spell.

Protection from energy is good, but its concentration. But good for 1 hour, but only versus 1 type of energy. So no spirit guardians or bless.

[Bluemanarc]

Nice work, what you say makes perfect sense, brilliant in fact. Just what I was looking for and I am dipping 1 into Druid.
But we are just using core books to reduce power gaming a tad. Shame.