OOTS #998 - The Discussion Thread

[Bulldog Psion]

It was actually twenty-seven minutes. But that is still an awesome theory, and Loki's assertion that they'd have 10-15 minutes might indeed be more informed than a random guess. (Though either way, boy, it's pretty ballsy to assume that sort of thing, or that the Snarl will be susceptible to the same attack again.) It's conceivable that this isn't the first time the Snarl has been imprisoned and broken out of a world. And I would totally buy that the gods, arguing, might themselves have destroyed the previous world, either freeing or creating the Snarl in that process. As you say, it's a long shot, but cool to think about.

Thanks, I'm glad you find the theory interesting!

Regardless, I'm a lot more suspicious about the complete accuracy of the Crayons account, and the actions of the gods, then I was before...

[Kaytara]

The more strips go by without mentioning Belkar's fate, the more I become convinced he's already been rescued off-screen and is going to dramatically crash the Godsmoot and reveal Durkon to have killed two other clerics in a well-intentioned attempt at being a team player that *just* so happens to interrupt Hel's attempt to actually vote in the Order's favour.

[Forikroder]

The more strips go by without mentioning Belkar's fate, the more I become convinced he's already been rescued off-screen and is going to dramatically crash the Godsmoot and reveal Durkon to have killed two other clerics in a well-intentioned attempt at being a team player that *just* so happens to interrupt Hel's attempt to actually vote in the Order's favour.

he had basically full health and was falling towards a river, hes perfectly fine

[runeghost]

I am concerned Loki is in league with the Dark One. There are 2 separate threats posed by the Snarl. If the last Gate is opened, there is a brief window of time before the Snarl comes through (according to Loki). On the other hand, the Dark One plans to take control of the Gate, and if his demands are not met, open the last Gate directly on one of the home planes of the gods - leaving them no way to escape or hide, and no option to remake the world. It's not clear if anyone else knows of the Plan, but it is possible Loki does. By the way, whichever god received Tsukiko's soul might know too.

I'm thinking along similar lines. Perhaps the Dark One, Loki, Hel, Rat, and who knows who else are trying to leverage the situation to wipe out their divine rivals. If the gods wipe out the world and start over, their "kill my rivals with the Snarl" plan is set way back. I can see the Dark One voting against ending the world on that basis.

Although, speaking of the Dark One and Redcloak, it's going to be interesting to see

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which way Redcloak jumps once he realizes that he needs to stop and re-seal the Snarl in order to save Gobtoppia from getting gobbled by it. I can see a swap: Hel-aligned Durkula teams up with Xykon to take control of the last Gate, while Redcloak teams up with the PCs to try and save his beloved city.

[Lord Raziere]

Thanks, I'm glad you find the theory interesting!

Regardless, I'm a lot more suspicious about the complete accuracy of the Crayons account, and the actions of the gods, then I was before...

See?

Told you that something was fishy about that story....perhaps they've destroyed the world multiple times over. Because it sounds like they've had this conversation before. None of this sounds like "Oh No! The Snarl is threatening to come out A SECOND TIME!" and more like "Meh, the Snarl is coming out again, looks like we're going to have destroy the world. (Again.) oh well, sorry mortals, your all going to have to die. Don't worry, its the safest option." and Loki is just like "C'mooooon, it wasn't that bad this time around, lets give them a little while longer to see if they can handle it (unlike the many other times we didn't wait) just for funsies? y'know, mix it up a little."

cause it seems like neither of the gods are panicking about this, or treating it as all that abnormal a crisis. One wonders how many times they have gone through this conversation to arrive at these conclusions.

[eilandesq]

What I'm wondering is how much the gods actually know about The Dark One's involvement in the events that have taken them to this point. Listening to O-Chul talk, it seems like at least the Azurites know what the broad strokes of The Plan are (try to manipulate the Gates to bring the Snarl into play in some manner, thereby risking the world), but do the gods know this? If they do, why would even the evil ones be willing to let The Dark One profit from his scheming? Wouldn't their probable reaction be to slay him before any attempt to start over?

[Forikroder]

I'm thinking along similar lines. Perhaps the Dark One, Loki, Hel, Rat, and who knows who else are trying to leverage the situation to wipe out their divine rivals. If the gods wipe out the world and start over, their "kill my rivals with the Snarl" plan is set way back. I can see the Dark One voting against ending the world on that basis.

Although, speaking of the Dark One and Redcloak, it's going to be interesting to see

Spoiler

Show

which way Redcloak jumps once he realizes that he needs to stop and re-seal the Snarl in order to save Gobtoppia from getting gobbled by it. I can see a swap: Hel-aligned Durkula teams up with Xykon to take control of the last Gate, while Redcloak teams up with the PCs to try and save his beloved city.

nah no chance, Gobbtopia only exists so long as Xykon exists and the OoTS has more important things to do then go reclaim azure city

as soon as the main plot is done so is Gobbtopia redcloak probably figured that much out already to him even if it means sacrificing gobbtopia creating a bright future for Goblins is worth it he already knows that hes playing with high stakes hes willing to lose a hand if it means winning the pot

[goodyarn]

Well... you may have missed this comic.

Totally forgot about that. It's been a while. But doesn't that mean that the Snarl is already loose in, and destroying, this world?

[Father Miles]

I am convinced the subtext of the troll story about Durkon's father has something to do with this.

[Ralanr]

I am convinced the subtext of the troll story about Durkon's father has something to do with this.

Oh right. I keep forgetting foreshadowing possibilities.

[Breccia]

Hmm. Let me see if I have these correct:
-- The Snarl doesn't just kill people, it unmakes them, including their immortal soul. Or so Heimdall suggests.
-- Durkula took every advantage to attack clerics with no vote in the election, but who spent all their high-level spell slots on making the building (making their thralls pretty ineffective in a fight against a room filled with high-level clerics, even if bolstered)
-- The clerics vote on behalf of their deity. The gods themselves do not directly vote, and will adhere to the results of the vote. Otherwise, why have a Godsmoot?
-- Votes are counted by number of deities with clerics present. Multiple clerics for the same deity don't increase the vote of that deity.
-- After the destruction of an entire pantheon, the remaining three made a new world based on their own wishes (yes, ninjas)
-- deities gain more power the more devout followers they have.
-- Belkar, V, Haley and Elan aren't in the building. They presumably have no idea what's going on inside.

Continuing with my increasingly unlikely prediction: Durkula intends to collapse the building, killing everyone inside, and ruling the Godsmoot by the vote of one to zero. Killing and/or vamping the earth elemental priests who made the building would help in that regard, by either removing everyone with the ability to shape/control stone, or by having vamped clerics dispel their active spells holding up the building (if that's possible, of course). With total control of the Godsmoot, he could set the terms of the destruction of the world, including that the death of the mortal bodies of all the people be done in a dishonorable manner (sudden lethal incurable plague), giving Hel a nearly infinite army of damned souls to work with. Hel would have an iron grip on the Northern pantheon when the new world is made, and it would be far more to her liking.

My track record for predicting the OOTS story is pathetic. Years ago, I predicted the Snarl was the 4th Edition rules. My best result so far was calling the abomination a Crystal Meth golem. But this is the best guess I have, based on the evidence.

And I am stoked to see what happens.

[bpzinn]

It's certainly the Lawful option, and can be argued that it is the Good option as well. Roy himself said it: Dying he can deal with. Obliterating souls? Not so much.

This. Even knowing what we the studio audience know (about the world in the rift) that the comic audience does not, I would still vote to destroy the world. Because of the whole destroying the Souls of God and Man issue. Because it is a reasonable belief, more evidence pointing towards it being true than towards it being false, and because the stakes are so high. Even if you voted 'Nay' and the facts of later evidence later turned out in your favor, that does not mean you made a good choice; it means you gambled and won.

But the Issue as I see it is that while it may be acceptable to wager your own immortal soul on the chance you are correct, it is JUST NOT OK to wager anyone (or in this case everyone) else's immortal soul on that chance.

This is why songs about the devil contain lines such as "a fiddle of gold against your soul that says I'm better than you" and not "a 14k gold full piece orchestral instrument set with matching podium and conductors baton against your soul and the souls of everyone in this crowded bar (even those who have not entered into an agreement imperiling their soul) that says I am better than you"

This is while I see Loki's 'Nay' vote as showing off some laudable virtues, but still basically rooted in Evil.

I do not really trust that 10-15 min window at all; It is way to close for comfort concerning something where the stakes are so high. Again, it is gambling even if it pays off. Or a trick. This is Loki after all.

Hoping it's not a violation of rules to speculate upon this, but I think Rich had this entire sequence more or less ready to go before publishing the first strip, because he knew that waiting a long time to see the next episode would be agonizing to his readers. It's also likely that this particular scene has been bouncing around in his brain for years; this is a climatic moment.

Well, I think we had WoG that the comic came before the plot; in the beginning this was self contained comics. But once the story did emerge I do see Rich following it through to the end in broad stroked internally way before it was written on a page. Probably before the end of book one.

[theasl]

See?

Told you that something was fishy about that story....perhaps they've destroyed the world multiple times over. Because it sounds like they've had this conversation before. None of this sounds like "Oh No! The Snarl is threatening to come out A SECOND TIME!" and more like "Meh, the Snarl is coming out again, looks like we're going to have destroy the world. (Again.) oh well, sorry mortals, your all going to have to die. Don't worry, its the safest option." and Loki is just like "C'mooooon, it wasn't that bad this time around, lets give them a little while longer to see if they can handle it (unlike the many other times we didn't wait) just for funsies? y'know, mix it up a little."

cause it seems like neither of the gods are panicking about this, or treating it as all that abnormal a crisis. One wonders how many times they have gone through this conversation to arrive at these conclusions.

Huh, interesting theory. Unfortunately that makes it sound a little like Mass Effect, and, well, let's hope it doesn't end like that. (For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, I would strongly suggest not bothering to figure out...)

Hmm. Let me see if I have these correct:
-- The Snarl doesn't just kill people, it unmakes them, including their immortal soul. Or so Heimdall suggests.
-- Durkula took every advantage to attack clerics with no vote in the election, but who spent all their high-level spell slots on making the building (making their thralls pretty ineffective in a fight against a room filled with high-level clerics, even if bolstered)
-- The clerics vote on behalf of their deity. The gods themselves do not directly vote, and will adhere to the results of the vote. Otherwise, why have a Godsmoot?
-- Votes are counted by number of deities with clerics present. Multiple clerics for the same deity don't increase the vote of that deity.
-- After the destruction of an entire pantheon, the remaining three made a new world based on their own wishes (yes, ninjas)
-- deities gain more power the more devout followers they have.
-- Belkar, V, Haley and Elan aren't in the building. They presumably have no idea what's going on inside.

Continuing with my increasingly unlikely prediction: Durkula intends to collapse the building, killing everyone inside, and ruling the Godsmoot by the vote of one to zero. Killing and/or vamping the earth elemental priests who made the building would help in that regard, by either removing everyone with the ability to shape/control stone, or by having vamped clerics dispel their active spells holding up the building (if that's possible, of course). With total control of the Godsmoot, he could set the terms of the destruction of the world, including that the death of the mortal bodies of all the people be done in a dishonorable manner (sudden lethal incurable plague), giving Hel a nearly infinite army of damned souls to work with. Hel would have an iron grip on the Northern pantheon when the new world is made, and it would be far more to her liking.

You forget that it's not the clerics voting, it's the gods themselves. The clerics are there simply to act as the mouthpiece for their gods; they do not have any autonomy in this choice. Otherwise, why would the god-proxies not be able to hear anyone other than the other proxies? Also, killing the other high priests, in whatever manner, would violate the terms of the godsmoot and be grounds for immediate divine intervention - and Hel wouldn't even have the other evil gods as allies there.

[eilandesq]

We don't know what would happen if the vote was prevented from taking place in some manner. That may change rather soon.

[rewinn]

Still, Loki gets my vote.
He almost sounds like a D&D player voting against moving on to a new campaign/setting.
Now, if I could only figure out what the 2016 stands for...

Perhaps the Calendar of the Gods dates from the creation of the first world.

If 1185 is the year of the current world, then the previous world was destroyed in its year 2016-1185 = 831.

Maybe.

[bpzinn]

You forget that it's not the clerics voting, it's the gods themselves. The clerics are there simply to act as the mouthpiece for their gods; they do not have any autonomy in this choice. Otherwise, why would the god-proxies not be able to hear anyone other than the other proxies? Also, killing the other high priests, in whatever manner, would violate the terms of the godsmoot and be grounds for immediate divine intervention - and Hel wouldn't even have the other evil gods as allies there.

I think is is referring to the intersession of a Cleric casting "Summon Proxie" being necessary to cast a vote. If you kill a caster before they can cast the spell, their god cannot cast a vote. Hence the usual non-voting of Hel, who only now had a Cleric high enough to cast the spell. (Or if you can create a Magic Item that allows any Cleric to cast the spell and summon the proxy of their god, because she has no high level Clerics AND bad relations with other gods)

I do not thing that play will work. There ARE rules to the Godsmoot; HPoH checked to make sure he found a loophole (or at least thought he did) excluding the hosts from the protections of the godsmoot before killing them. The various High Priest are explicitly under protection. The gross violation of such rules in the course of rigging the vote would tend to negale it being seen as binding even amongst the most Lawful of gods.

[rewinn]

PREDICTION: Whether the referendum passes depends upon the "Rule Of Roy":

YEAS WIN - GODS DESTROY WORLD IMMEDIATELY:
"Sigh. Well, that's it then. Afterlife, here I come."

NAYS WIN - GODS DESTROY WORLD ONLY IF ROY FAILS:
"Sigh. So I'm not just saving the world from Xykon, I'm saving it from all of the gods as well. If I fail, it's all my fault. No pressure!"

Which is more stressful for Roy - and therefore more likely?

[RedneckTex95]

Roy 2016!

And I agree with Loki

[BriarHobbit]

That was awesome! Of course the gods can only hear each other (and perhaps their priests). That makes sense. It suggests why so many desparate calls for help never get heard in a RPG world. Heimdall gets the short straw of advocating the "Better safe than sorry" approach. His arch-enemy Loki gets the other position. A very entertaining strip.

I wonder if the Durkula plan is to reveal/broadcast the discussion of the Godsmoot, which would certainly cause a huge loss of faith among a lot of people and generate a lot of chaos.

[Snails]

This. Even knowing what we the studio audience know (about the world in the rift) that the comic audience does not, I would still vote to destroy the world. Because of the whole destroying the Souls of God and Man issue. Because it is a reasonable belief, more evidence pointing towards it being true than towards it being false, and because the stakes are so high. Even if you voted 'Nay' and the facts of later evidence later turned out in your favor, that does not mean you made a good choice; it means you gambled and won.

But the Issue as I see it is that while it may be acceptable to wager your own immortal soul on the chance you are correct, it is JUST NOT OK to wager anyone (or in this case everyone) else's immortal soul on that chance.

While the Giant seems to interpret the RAW regarding Good and Evil much as I do, it is very difficult to see how those rules apply to a situation so extreme at this one.

It is accepted as settled law that doing Evil to accomplish Good is not Good -- it may be either Neutral or Evil.

But is killing someone now to prevent their soul from utter annihilation Evil? Neutral? Good? What if you do not know their soul is doomed for destruction, but it is only "likely"? Is 99% likely a high enough probability to make the act non-Evil? 90%? 80%? 50%? 30%?

We have so extreme a scenario it is not obvious that rules like "choosing to kill an innocent is always wrong" can be applied. Even if we accept the fabric of the universe knows Good from Evil, can we really count on Good and Evil gods understanding the difference here?

My suspicion is even the gods will be judged by the very fabric of the universe based on their actual internal personal intentions, regardless of what they say, regardless of what the math says about chances of survival of the world. Destroying the world because it is the most certain way to save your immortal ass is Evil, even if it is 99.9999999% certain the world will soon be unmade no matter what the gods try to do to save it. Destroying the world in a heartfelt desire to save those souls from destruction is Good, if it is really true you put your own survival below the survival of those souls, and then the probabilities never count against you.

[Torvaun]

So, in the interest of a throwaway joke about dwarven alcoholism having massive plot significance, Hel claims the dead who did not fall in battle. So, is Hel going to vote for the destruction of the world to steal as many souls as she can grab?

[ORione]

Celia and Hinjo look good with the art upgrade.

[Shieldr]

Whatever exists within the Rifts is a creative force. It's made an entire world. Any destruction it causes outside of the Rifts might be because it believes that its world is the only valid one.

I think the Snarl might actually be the Eastern Gods, who just couldn't get along with the rest of the pantheons and were locked away.

Oh yeah, and this comic rocks.

[Fishmonster]

I think Redcloak will show up and his deity will have the deciding vote.. haven't read the whole thread so +1 to anyone who said this first.

[HuntedWalrus]

My rampant speculation is that the vote will go to "save the world five minutes after," because of the situation that will put Roy in down the road. Imagine:

Xykon's got the Gate, but Roy is in position to destroy it, but not to destroy Xykon. He can either LET Xykon have the gate, ruling the world, or he can destroy it, releasing the Snarl and provoking the Gods to end existence. To save the day (and the world) he'd have to willingly let Xykon live, failing to fulfill his father's Blood Oath, and since it's by his choice, being kept out of the afterlife. I can imagine him making that choice, and reluctantly accepting the price for saving the world. I mean, how much worse could the situation get for a Lawful Good protagonist, than to be faced with such an impossible choice?
It's the best way to put Roy into a corner with no foreseeable way out, thus making it all the more heroic when he finds one anyway.

And even if the Northern pantheon says "yes" to immediate destruction, all we need is for the other two to say "no," and we get our five-minute window.

[Basement Cat]

"SUMMON PROXY!!!"

Hmm, given that each High Priest is being introduced by way of their service to their individual deity then unless there's some major interruption Durkula's allegiance to Hel has to come out in the immediate upcoming strips.

Somehow I don't think the Giant will wait until #1000 to do it.

Also, given that Loki's High Priest apparently summoned Loki's proxie alone Durkula may not need the cleric he just killed to summon Hel's proxie...but that doesn't mean that Hel won't make the new vampire another redundantly powerful priest in her service. But for what purpose?

The anticipation!

[Edric O]

Alright, this update is the most awesome and exciting comic strip I've read in years. And I don't mean compared to other OOTS strips. I mean compared to other comics, in general.

And I suspect that it's only going to get better as we reach strip #1000.

Having said that, I also want to try my luck on a prediction for what's going to happen next. So, I hereby predict that (1) the gods will vote to destroy the world, but (2) something will prevent them from carrying out this decision, possibly through outright deicide. And (3) the IFCC will act, in some way or other.

[Basement Cat]

I reckon the vote is gonna be a complete tie. BUT THEN!!! Elan will burst in with Banjo, claiming that Banjo is a legitimate god and he should therefore get a vote. That vote will save the world!

Also hoping we get to see what happened in the desert after strip #945

Wait a minute! You may have stumbled onto Hel's true scheme!!!

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What if her having a High Priest present at the Godsmoot means that she possesses the deciding vote---and she uses her vote to blackmail the other Northern gods!!! All of the gods, even!

We know she's ticked at Thor for "stealing" souls from her "Hel: She died from an infection. Thor: She died fighting an infection."

So she finally gets a High Priest to attend the Godsmoot figuring that the other two pantheons have voted "Yea" and "Nay" and then the Northern Gods end up tied and Hel, getting the last vote, decides to blackmail ALL of existence to push her own agenda.

And the worst thing is that she can mooch concessions from both the "Yea" crowd, i.e. "We'll change the rules if you vote to end the world so next time you'll get more souls." and she can mooch concessions from the "Nay" crowd, i.e. "Okay, you've gotten a raw deal and we'll side with you against Thor if you vote to preserve the world."

Either way Hel wins!

Egads!

[otakuryoga]

"I don't have the heart to tell him the gods only hear each other"
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fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[Hiro Protagonest]

Roy just needs to talk like the High Priest of Odin.