Star Wars Rebels: Season Two

[Emperordaniel]

So. Enemy Mine: Star Wars Edition.

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You would think that Agent Kallus (I still can't believe they named him that) would have learned better than to set traps for this bunch without bringing along an Inquisitor or three. Oh well. Apart from that, it was a pretty good story. You can't even fairly say that we've never quite seen Kallus as anything but before; he was obviously shocked at the summary execution of Commandant Aresko and Taskmaster Grint last season, so it wasn't completely out of nowhere.

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Considering that the next episode does feature at least two Inquisitors (plus Ahsoka and a cameo from Vision!Frank Oz-Yoda), I think the Empire is starting to learn its lesson.

It was really obvious what the Empire was working on around Geonosis - however, we know at least this band of rebels won't figure it out, since Rogue One is being released in December.

[Darth Credence]

This episode also demonstrated for me that they are making an effort for continuity across the various media. The state of Geonosis was the same as what we see in the Darth Vader comic book series. There was at least one Geonosian queen alive in that, so the statement that everyone was gone is wrong, but one being on a planet seems easy enough to miss.

[Emperordaniel]

Oh, a little something else I liked from the episode - the callback to The Clone Wars, with Agent Kallus mentioning a run-in with a rebel cell on Onderon led by Saw Gerrera.

Spoiler: The Clone Wars

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For those who don't know, the first story arc in The Clone Wars' fifth season focused on Obi-Wan, Anakin, Rex, and Ahsoka (but especially Ahsoka) providing military training to a resistance movement on Onderon led by Saw and Steela Gerrera, with the aim of overthrowing the planet's Separatist government; it was implied that the Onderon resistance would eventually morph into being part of the Rebellion once the Empire rose to power.

[Renegade Paladin]

This episode also demonstrated for me that they are making an effort for continuity across the various media. The state of Geonosis was the same as what we see in the Darth Vader comic book series. There was at least one Geonosian queen alive in that, so the statement that everyone was gone is wrong, but one being on a planet seems easy enough to miss.

This is almost certainly well after the events of the Darth Vader comics, so that queen is likely dead as well.

[dancrilis]

This is almost certainly well after the events of the Darth Vader comics, so that queen is likely dead as well.

The events of the Darth Vader comics occur after the destruction of the first death star.

[Renegade Paladin]

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Considering that the next episode does feature at least two Inquisitors (plus Ahsoka and a cameo from Vision!Frank Oz-Yoda), I think the Empire is starting to learn its lesson.

It was really obvious what the Empire was working on around Geonosis - however, we know at least this band of rebels won't figure it out, since Rogue One is being released in December.

Yeah. Also, clearly the Ghost crew has never been to Kuat.

The events of the Darth Vader comics occur after the destruction of the first death star.

My mistake, then. I had read that comic in isolation because I picked up whatever was on the shelf when my local comic shop had comics for $1 after Thanksgiving; the timeline wasn't clear from just that.

[BlueHerring]

New episode!

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They visit the temple on Lothal, and everyone goes on a vision quest!

Kanan meets G.I. Pastyface, Ezra meets Yoda, and Ahsoka gets to know about the big twist.

Aaaaand Yoda told Ezra to go to Malachor. Either this is literally the worst idea ever, or there's some endgame he's got in mind.

I wonder if they're actually going to Malachor V, though. And hey, maybe it's still shattered after 4000 years!

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, it's official; Kanan can't live past the beginning of Return of the Jedi.

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Yoda now definitively knows of Kanan's continued adherence to the ways of the Jedi, and through the Temple's Force visions made him a Knight. So assuming that Yoda was sticking to "certain point of view" rather than bald-faced lies, "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be," means that Yoda has to at least believe that Kanan Jarrus is dead and Ezra is either also dead or turned from the ways of the Jedi by the time he's on his deathbed.

[Emperordaniel]

New episode!

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They visit the temple on Lothal, and everyone goes on a vision quest!

Kanan meets G.I. Pastyface, Ezra meets Yoda, and Ahsoka gets to know about the big twist.

Aaaaand Yoda told Ezra to go to Malachor. Either this is literally the worst idea ever, or there's some endgame he's got in mind.

I wonder if they're actually going to Malachor V, though. And hey, maybe it's still shattered after 4000 years!

According to the Visual Dictionary, Kylo Ren's crossguard-saber design originates from "The Scourging of Malachor".

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Any bets on whether Ezra's crossguard saber from the trailers ends up in Kylo Ren's hands eventually?

Also, was it just me, or was Ahsoka looking a lot worse for wear at the beginning of the episode? Like she hasn't been getting a lot of sleep lately, or something.

[BRC]

Well, it's official; Kanan can't live past the beginning of Return of the Jedi.

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Yoda now definitively knows of Kanan's continued adherence to the ways of the Jedi, and through the Temple's Force visions made him a Knight. So assuming that Yoda was sticking to "certain point of view" rather than bald-faced lies, "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be," means that Yoda has to at least believe that Kanan Jarrus is dead and Ezra is either also dead or turned from the ways of the Jedi by the time he's on his deathbed.

okay, so, I've been thinking about this

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So, the classic view is that there are Jedi (Good) and Sith (Evil). But, in Clone Wars we learn that the Jedi Order has procedures for kicking somebody out, which seems odd if the only other option besides Good Jedi is Evil Sith.

I know "Grey Jedi" are a thing, but they seem pretty vaguely defined. Meanwhile, Ahsoka is still around, and despite getting a figurative "Attagirl" from Vision-Yoda, considers herself Not a Jedi (because she left the Order).

Which means that it's possible that Kanan and Ezra survive, uncorrupted, until RoTJ, but are not considered Jedi, regardless of what the Vision!Inquisitor said. Especially if one is doing what Ahsoka seems to be doing, and defining a Jedi by their allegiance/association with the Jedi Order.

Kanan is working off his incomplete Padawan training, and is otherwise self-taught. Ezra is being taught by Kanan. It's possible that the realities of the early rebellion force them to take up positions and techniques (Kanan uses a blaster despite being proficient with a lightsaber, Ezra has his blaster-saber) that disqualify them from being counted as Jedi. They're still counting Kanan as a Jedi because he never left the order, even if it was destroyed around him, but at this point it's basically a purely technical distinction.

So, let's say we work off the idea that being a Jedi requires 1) Loyalty to the Jedi Order, regardless of what state it's in (So, Ahsoka was no longer a Jedi when she left the order, even though she would have been had she accepted their offer to come back), 2) Adherence to certain Order-Approved principles and techniques, and, along with that, 3) Trained by an Order-approved Master (So that you know the order-approved principles and techniques).

So, by that logic, Luke would count as a Jedi, because his teachers (Obi-Won and Yoda) were both Masters in the Jedi Order, who presumably taught him the Order's Techniques and Principles. Ahsoka dosn't count because she made a deliberate choice to leave the Order, even if she's otherwise following it's principles.
Meanwhile, as the Rebellion goes on, Kanan starts relying less on his half remembered Jedi training, and more on the Self-Taught style he and Ezra develop as Rebels, mixing Blasters and Lightsabers, force-throwing each other in the middle of battle, heavy reliance on Force-powered Wild Empathy to control animals, ect.
That last one is apparently a Jedi technique, since Kanan taught it to Ezra, but we don't see it being used that often in the Clone Wars. There are a couple times where Obi-Wan hitches a ride with a conveniently friendly animal that makes more sense if you assume he's using the Force on it, but Ezra frequently uses it to call in backup from local wildlife. There IS indication that the technique is risky, and makes you prone to Dark Side Corruption, which might be why it isn't on the standard list of Jedi Force Powers. The Sith can't do it because their mindset is closed and selfish, the Jedi don't use it because opening your mind to connect with wild animals leaves you open to Corruption.

But anyway, it's possible that Kanan and Ezra forge their own path that disqualifies them from being Jedi, even if they remain good-aligned Force Users.

Splitting these up because they are separate thoughts.

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Another possibility is that the Temple's visions don't actually represent a Communication from Yoda himself. We've previously seen that the Temple can conjure up visions of whoever it wants. Ezra saw a vision of Kanan, but Kanan wasn't aware that "He" was there. In fact, of the three Visions in the episode, only one of them could be interpreted as coming from the Individual they are seeing.
Ahsoka sees Anakin/Vader. This is presumably not Vader communicating with her over Force-Skype, it's the Temple confronting her with her own doubts, and showing her what happened to her former Master.

Kanan saw The Inquisitor, as a Temple Guard. Unless he redeemed himself in his last moments enough to be a Force Ghost (Unlikely in my opinion), I doubt this was a communication from the GI himself. It's more likely that this was the Temple using the GI's face to confront Kanan with 1) A figure whose skills he would respect. 2) A warning about the dangers of corruption (The Grand Inquisitor was once a noble Jedi! BE CAREFUL KANAN! BE CAREFUL!)

Ezra saw Yoda. Now, he's never met Yoda, but he's heard about him enough to recognize him. To Ezra, Yoda is an unimpeachable source of wisdom, above even Kanan and Ahsoka. If the Temple's goal was to give Ezra some sage advice that he would take seriously, it couldn't pick a better form than Yoda. Meanwhile, Yoda himself could be totally unaware that Ezra Bridger even exists, much less that an old temple is using his face to communicate.


Now, the bigger puzzle is, if Kanan, Ezra, Ect are alive post Battle-of-Yavin, how do they explain them not being mentioned at all during the movies.

Maybe the series will end with everybody heading to Alderan to await the arrival of Leia with the Death Star Plans, and they just hope the kids watching don't connect the dots.

[Hopeless]

Regarding the latest episode

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Perhaps Yoda is using Ezra to draw out Maul for Vader and his Inquisitors to eliminate as he is Sith trained and therefore a potential threat better removed before Luke enters play?

We still don't know who Snoke is

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but one plus regarding your theory is if the GI was actually a manifestation of the Temple or Yoda then he could still turn out to be Snoke!

Curiouser and curiouser...

[Ossian77]

Just saw "Homecoming" (SWR season2). I have to wonder at how flat the plot was (i do like the show...).

One question does stand out though as a particularly worrying plot hole

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But when you blow up a cruiser in high orbit for all to see (that was Hera's father's plan all along) how in the actual hell do you not worry about a 150 meters flaming block of steel and plasm falling from 200km high onto a random location on the planet you so love and want to set free? That seems reckless and quite idiotic!

Ossian

[Jayngfet]

Just saw "Homecoming" (SWR season2). I have to wonder at how flat the plot was (i do like the show...).

One question does stand out though as a particularly worrying plot hole

Spoiler

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But when you blow up a cruiser in high orbit for all to see (that was Hera's father's plan all along) how in the actual hell do you not worry about a 150 meters flaming block of steel and plasm falling from 200km high onto a random location on the planet you so love and want to set free? That seems reckless and quite idiotic!

Ossian

Most of Ryloth is uninhabited. Depending on which source you go by it's either mostly baron desert or so tidal locked 99% of it's surface isn't inhabitable by even natives.

[Renegade Paladin]

okay, so, I've been thinking about this

Spoiler

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So, the classic view is that there are Jedi (Good) and Sith (Evil). But, in Clone Wars we learn that the Jedi Order has procedures for kicking somebody out, which seems odd if the only other option besides Good Jedi is Evil Sith.

I know "Grey Jedi" are a thing, but they seem pretty vaguely defined. Meanwhile, Ahsoka is still around, and despite getting a figurative "Attagirl" from Vision-Yoda, considers herself Not a Jedi (because she left the Order).

Which means that it's possible that Kanan and Ezra survive, uncorrupted, until RoTJ, but are not considered Jedi, regardless of what the Vision!Inquisitor said. Especially if one is doing what Ahsoka seems to be doing, and defining a Jedi by their allegiance/association with the Jedi Order.

Kanan is working off his incomplete Padawan training, and is otherwise self-taught. Ezra is being taught by Kanan. It's possible that the realities of the early rebellion force them to take up positions and techniques (Kanan uses a blaster despite being proficient with a lightsaber, Ezra has his blaster-saber) that disqualify them from being counted as Jedi. They're still counting Kanan as a Jedi because he never left the order, even if it was destroyed around him, but at this point it's basically a purely technical distinction.

So, let's say we work off the idea that being a Jedi requires 1) Loyalty to the Jedi Order, regardless of what state it's in (So, Ahsoka was no longer a Jedi when she left the order, even though she would have been had she accepted their offer to come back), 2) Adherence to certain Order-Approved principles and techniques, and, along with that, 3) Trained by an Order-approved Master (So that you know the order-approved principles and techniques).

So, by that logic, Luke would count as a Jedi, because his teachers (Obi-Won and Yoda) were both Masters in the Jedi Order, who presumably taught him the Order's Techniques and Principles. Ahsoka dosn't count because she made a deliberate choice to leave the Order, even if she's otherwise following it's principles.
Meanwhile, as the Rebellion goes on, Kanan starts relying less on his half remembered Jedi training, and more on the Self-Taught style he and Ezra develop as Rebels, mixing Blasters and Lightsabers, force-throwing each other in the middle of battle, heavy reliance on Force-powered Wild Empathy to control animals, ect.
That last one is apparently a Jedi technique, since Kanan taught it to Ezra, but we don't see it being used that often in the Clone Wars. There are a couple times where Obi-Wan hitches a ride with a conveniently friendly animal that makes more sense if you assume he's using the Force on it, but Ezra frequently uses it to call in backup from local wildlife. There IS indication that the technique is risky, and makes you prone to Dark Side Corruption, which might be why it isn't on the standard list of Jedi Force Powers. The Sith can't do it because their mindset is closed and selfish, the Jedi don't use it because opening your mind to connect with wild animals leaves you open to Corruption.

But anyway, it's possible that Kanan and Ezra forge their own path that disqualifies them from being Jedi, even if they remain good-aligned Force Users.

Splitting these up because they are separate thoughts.

Spoiler

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Another possibility is that the Temple's visions don't actually represent a Communication from Yoda himself. We've previously seen that the Temple can conjure up visions of whoever it wants. Ezra saw a vision of Kanan, but Kanan wasn't aware that "He" was there. In fact, of the three Visions in the episode, only one of them could be interpreted as coming from the Individual they are seeing.
Ahsoka sees Anakin/Vader. This is presumably not Vader communicating with her over Force-Skype, it's the Temple confronting her with her own doubts, and showing her what happened to her former Master.

Kanan saw The Inquisitor, as a Temple Guard. Unless he redeemed himself in his last moments enough to be a Force Ghost (Unlikely in my opinion), I doubt this was a communication from the GI himself. It's more likely that this was the Temple using the GI's face to confront Kanan with 1) A figure whose skills he would respect. 2) A warning about the dangers of corruption (The Grand Inquisitor was once a noble Jedi! BE CAREFUL KANAN! BE CAREFUL!)

Ezra saw Yoda. Now, he's never met Yoda, but he's heard about him enough to recognize him. To Ezra, Yoda is an unimpeachable source of wisdom, above even Kanan and Ahsoka. If the Temple's goal was to give Ezra some sage advice that he would take seriously, it couldn't pick a better form than Yoda. Meanwhile, Yoda himself could be totally unaware that Ezra Bridger even exists, much less that an old temple is using his face to communicate.


Now, the bigger puzzle is, if Kanan, Ezra, Ect are alive post Battle-of-Yavin, how do they explain them not being mentioned at all during the movies.

Maybe the series will end with everybody heading to Alderan to await the arrival of Leia with the Death Star Plans, and they just hope the kids watching don't connect the dots.

Spoiler: Rebels Recon

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The behind-the-scenes material confirms that Yoda was using the temple to communicate with all three of them. "Ultimately, the visions created in the temple are a means of communication for Yoda to instruct and teach these young Jedi. The vision of the Grand Inquisitor is entire motivated by Yoda who's basically letting Kanan know that he's a Jedi Knight." - Henry Gilroy, co-executive producer of the show.

So Yoda definitely knows.

Just saw "Homecoming" (SWR season2). I have to wonder at how flat the plot was (i do like the show...).

One question does stand out though as a particularly worrying plot hole

Spoiler

Show

But when you blow up a cruiser in high orbit for all to see (that was Hera's father's plan all along) how in the actual hell do you not worry about a 150 meters flaming block of steel and plasm falling from 200km high onto a random location on the planet you so love and want to set free? That seems reckless and quite idiotic!

Ossian

You're worried about that, but aren't freaking out about the second Death Star?

[Emperordaniel]

You're worried about that, but aren't freaking out about the second Death Star?

Plus there's the deal with us Earth-icans routinely deorbiting spacecraft all the time, and no one's been killed by falling debris as of yet.

[Ossian77]

Plus there's the deal with us Earth-icans routinely deorbiting spacecraft all the time, and no one's been killed by falling debris as of yet.

Ok but i would not mix a controlled de-orbiting of a tin can (satellite) without plasma and warheads on board with the fiery and totally random fall of a 100-meter cruiser full of said plasma and warheads :) .

The second Death Star (or the first, really) was yet another dumb-luck shot of the rebels. Maybe they just assumed that theoretically the chain reaction (and the annihilation of all hypermatter in the core?) would pulverize the station so utterly as to be worth the risk of basically scorching Endor's forest moon to a smoldering ash. And then they just shrugged, said "meh..." and went with it, hoping for the best ?

[Darth Credence]

The second Death Star apocalypse theory, and the concern for a crashing ship, are both wrong because they attempt to use real world physics and apply it to the Star Wars universe. The apocalypse on Endor didn't happen, and no one was worried because the way physics work in that universe, it never would have happened. This is the same universe that has sounds, fire, giant slugs and whales in the "vacuum" of space. It has asteroid fields that are densely packed enough that they are incredibly hard to fly through, yet the asteroids don't all impact each other. Saying that there would be an Endor apocalypse is no different than complaining that the Force doesn't really work.

[Infernally Clay]

Regarding the latest episode

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Perhaps Yoda is using Ezra to draw out Maul for Vader and his Inquisitors to eliminate as he is Sith trained and therefore a potential threat better removed before Luke enters play?

I don't know about thaaaaat. I'm not even sure if Maul is on Malachor or if he's simply connecting to Ezra the way Yoda does, which would itself confirm Ezra's strength in the Dark Side. Maybe that's the whole point of sending him to Malachor - to tempt Ezra with the Dark Side and see if he's strong enough to refuse it.

If Maul actually is there, I imagine he'll interfere with the battle between Ahsoka and Vader and buy the heroes a chance to escape. Not because he's redeeming himself but because he'd obviously hate the Empire more than anyone. Then Vader would kill him, showing just how powerful he really is.

[Jayngfet]

The dark side doesn't work that way. You don't get "strong in the dark side", it's a thing that tempts all force users. Otherwise there's no point because everyone's predisposed or not and that's just adding midi-chlorians to midi-chlorians.

Likewise, Ezra is in no way ready for that kind of temptation. That's the kind of trial that jedi aren't supposed to face head on until they're ready to become full knights.

[Infernally Clay]

The dark side doesn't work that way. You don't get "strong in the dark side", it's a thing that tempts all force users. Otherwise there's no point because everyone's predisposed or not and that's just adding midi-chlorians to midi-chlorians.

Likewise, Ezra is in no way ready for that kind of temptation. That's the kind of trial that jedi aren't supposed to face head on until they're ready to become full knights.

Yoda specifically told Kanan that the Dark Side pulls at Ezra, calls to him and that it makes him dangerous... Even if you can't be strong in the Dark Side (which seems a bit of a weird thing to suggest), there was a lot of emphasis placed on Ezra's power growing and the danger it posed. If his increased sensitivity to the Force allowed him to see a vision of Yoda within a Jedi Temple, why wouldn't it also allow him to see a vision of Maul within a Sith Temple?

Saying Ezra isn't ready for it is probably the point. Both times he spoke to Yoda, he struggled to choose between seeking revenge and protecting his friends. It's entirely possible Yoda believes it's now or never - that Ezra is growing too strong, too quickly, and that the choice needs to be made now or he'll just be lost to the Dark Side anyway.

We know Malachor has nothing directly to do with defeating Vader and the Inquisitors, there's definitely no anti-Sith Lord McGuffin hiding there, but I'm certain it has everything to do with how Ezra will choose to defeat them. A choice Yoda is forcing him to make, in light of Ezra's own conflicted feelings.

[Emperordaniel]

If that new planet Chopper sent the fleet to isn't Dantooine, I'll eat a metaphorical hat.

It's less than three years until A New Hope after all, and with the rebel base on Dantooine being "abandoned for some time" by the time of that film, we should be getting to the point where they set up a base on that planet anytime now...

[BRC]

Yoda specifically told Kanan that the Dark Side pulls at Ezra, calls to him and that it makes him dangerous... Even if you can't be strong in the Dark Side (which seems a bit of a weird thing to suggest), there was a lot of emphasis placed on Ezra's power growing and the danger it posed. If his increased sensitivity to the Force allowed him to see a vision of Yoda within a Jedi Temple, why wouldn't it also allow him to see a vision of Maul within a Sith Temple?

Saying Ezra isn't ready for it is probably the point. Both times he spoke to Yoda, he struggled to choose between seeking revenge and protecting his friends. It's entirely possible Yoda believes it's now or never - that Ezra is growing too strong, too quickly, and that the choice needs to be made now or he'll just be lost to the Dark Side anyway.

We know Malachor has nothing directly to do with defeating Vader and the Inquisitors, there's definitely no anti-Sith Lord McGuffin hiding there, but I'm certain it has everything to do with how Ezra will choose to defeat them. A choice Yoda is forcing him to make, in light of Ezra's own conflicted feelings.

You can't be "Strong in the Dark Side", but you CAN be more easily tempted by it.

Ezra is getting his Jedi training pretty late in life, from a master who was barely trained himself and is hardly the paragon of the unattached zen-warrior monk. Ezra was abandoned at a young age and grew up taking care of himself. Now, he's become extremely attached to a Found Family of rebels who routinely put themselves in dangerous situations, and who he uses force powers to protect.

Fear, Anger, Hate, The Dark Side.

Fear: Ezra's new family is constantly imperiled, constantly facing forces stronger than them, and he hasn't had a lifetime of Jedi conditioning to separate himself from his emotions.

Anger: Ezra's Life Sucks. His parents were taken, and are probably dead now. His homeworld is being crushed under Imperial oppression, and the first place he found that feels like home is constantly getting shot at. Also, Chopper exists.

Hate: The Empire. Also Chopper, who continues to exist.

Plus, Ezra's particular force-power set seems to lean towards the "Connected" Side of things, which on one hand makes him empathetic, but on the other hand, opens him up to very negative emotions that can lead to the Dark Side.

[hamishspence]

You can't be "Strong in the Dark Side", but you CAN be more easily tempted by it.

If a cave can be "strong with the dark side of the force" and "a domain of evil" - maybe a person can, metaphorically speaking?

Or maybe it's not the cave - but the tree - a living entity - that's strong with the dark side? Some versions of TESB (novels/comics etc) say "remember your failure at the tree" rather than "remember your failure at the cave".

If that new planet Chopper sent the fleet to isn't Dantooine, I'll eat a metaphorical hat.

How good do metaphorical hats taste, I wonder?

The planet is called

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Atollon

http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/sta...trivia-gallery

[Emperordaniel]

How good do metaphorical hats taste, I wonder?

They taste like overconfidence enough for an entire planet-wide species, apparently.

[lt_murgen]

If that new planet Chopper sent the fleet to isn't Dantooine, I'll eat a metaphorical hat.

It's less than three years until A New Hope after all, and with the rebel base on Dantooine being "abandoned for some time" by the time of that film, we should be getting to the point where they set up a base on that planet anytime now...

I love Dantooine. Home of majestic air flap flaps!

Spoiler: majestic air flap flap

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[Darth Credence]

Anger: ...Also, Chopper exists.

Hate: ...Also Chopper, who continues to exist.

I am so glad I'm not the only one on this. Chopper is a bad, bad droid. It has pretty much no redeeming features, and has tried to kill other crew members several times. He is really my only qualm with the show, because I absolutely cannot comprehend why they would keep a homicidal droid on the ship.

[BRC]

I am so glad I'm not the only one on this. Chopper is a bad, bad droid. It has pretty much no redeeming features, and has tried to kill other crew members several times. He is really my only qualm with the show, because I absolutely cannot comprehend why they would keep a homicidal droid on the ship.

I think the idea is for him to fill the "Lovable Comic Relief" role, but 1) There is plenty of comic relief with the rest of the cast, 2) This show and TCW are NOT shy about how dangerous their character's lives are, so somebody like Chopper isn't so much a Lovable Scamp as his is a real and present danger to the team.

[Ossian77]

Chopper should be chopped. Does not look like this will happen anytime soon though.

[Emperordaniel]

So, watching this clip from tomorrow's episode...



...does anyone else have A Bad Feeling About This^TM?

[Reddish Mage]

If Chopper just got the rebels a new base planet, how could he have "no" redeeming features?