League of Legends LXV: What threads are mine to make, little Lamb? All, dear Wolf.

[Reinboom]

I was about to PM you about this after checking a match I just played about the Match History and noticed the Phantom Dancers I had purchased during the match being differently listed, but go figure, internet long beat me already to that.

That said, I'm very interested to see what happens come pre-season launch and full details. You all were not kidding in the new post about having some really interesting new choices in our item builds.

So some questions also for two of the changes announced: 1. Stealth Wards. Are they being completely removed from the game, and thus, any items which grant free Stealth Wards (i.E. Yellow Trinket/Green Upgrade, Sightstones, etc) will be using different wards. Or just the basic 75 Gold item from the shop? 2. The hinting at new refillable potions. Will these be like an actual item, similar to Crystalline Flask currently in game? Or will these be like Trinkets, and use up the Trinket slot/have it's own slot added?

The basic 75 gold item will be gone from the shop. (Incidentally, pink wards are now 75g).

They are like Crystalline.

[Duck999]

What I see here is that mages got some tweaking on their items a while ago, juggernauts got a buff, marksmen are getting a buff, and mages get... no more mana potions. The matches between mana champs and midlaners like zed or yasuo seem to be favoring the manaless champ now.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there was a comment in the Dev's Blog Thread that mentioned that quite a few mages were supposed to be balanced against their mana cost and that having mana pots threw off that balance. Given that is is preseason it is entirely possible (arguably probable) that Riot may decide to put mana potions back if they feel/see that mana less champions become too oppressive in lane.

[Reinboom]

IIRC there was a comment in the Dev's Blog Thread that mentioned that quite a few mages were supposed to be balanced against their mana cost and that having mana pots threw off that balance. Given that is is preseason it is entirely possible (arguably probable) that Riot may decide to put mana potions back if they feel/see that mana less champions become too oppressive in lane.

Not this.

Mana potions are used by a small portion of the player base consistently.
This usage rate is a major factor in what keeps us from buffing early game mana on some champions.

Yanking these out let us control and tweak mana usage early game much more easily for more players.

[Ashen Lilies]

I must say, I've only glanced at the new masteries, but the new mastery system looks awesome. I'm going to have to learn to be able to quickly change masteries in champ select, because I suspect that I'll be tailoring my mastery choices to specific champions and even games much more often, rather than just having set mastery pages for certain character archetypes like I currently do.

I'm sure that with League's playerbase, at some point the mastery system will be 'solved' in that there will be clear winners and losers among masteries, but I really like the idea of masteries that synergize well with specific champion kits or subtly adjust play patterns, rather than just being tiny number buffs. Forcing choices between masteries is also a pretty neat system. Like, right now, I'd probably run identical mastery pages for Tahm Kench and Maokai top since they're both magic damage dealing tanks with AP ratios and there's only so much variability the current mastery system allows for in that specific niche, but with the new system there's a clear decision point where you're going with Veteran's Scars on Tahm to synergize with his health stacking, but Runic Armor instead on Maokai for the 8% bonus on his passive and because he stacks more resistances than health with his build path.

I also like the shift to a 18/12/0 or 18/6/6 (or 12/12/6? the capstone masteries seem too good to give up most of the time...) allocation set-up rather than the current 21/9/0 set-up. Much more versatile, and I can already see it being great for, say, tanky supports who can now reach the end of the Resolve tree (Bond of Stone yes please) but still go fairly deep into the Cunning tree for that all-important Bandit mastery, whereas currently going deep Defense tree on an Alistar or Braum means skipping out on those important gold-gen and XP masteries in the Utility tree, which is pretty sucky.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not this.

Mana potions are used by a small portion of the player base consistently.
This usage rate is a major factor in what keeps us from buffing early game mana on some champions.

Yanking these out let us control and tweak mana usage early game much more easily for more players.

Fair enough, I guess I might have seen someone suggesting that and thinking it was a red post for some reason, though as one of those players that consistently buy mana potions I'll admit I'm a little sad about the mana pots dissappearing.

[Ashen Lilies]

Now that I've read all the mastery descriptions...

Why the **** would you include a 15% lifesteal-on-crit mastery in a game that includes Tryndamere in it. WHY WOULD YOU INCLUDE A 15% LIFESTEAL-ON-CRIT MASTERY IN A GAME THAT INCLUDES TRYNDAMERE IN IT!?

Why, Rito? I'm a good person. I've done nothing to deserve this. Why would you betray me like this?? T_T

[ImperatorV]

Being relatively new, I only have the vaguest ideas of how these changes are going to affect things. I'm glad green wards are going though, as I always forget to buy them when I play support.

[McDouggal]

I've got mixed feelings on the whole vision changes. On the one hand, I carry games out of the support position by warding for info, and this will really change that. On the other, maybe this will finally be the change that sees people other than Lee Sin jungle helping ward if they aren't in the support slot (At my MMR of course).

The ADC itemization changes are something I'm going to hold out on making a snap judgement on; the only thing I'd say is very strong just on first look is new Runaan's. Granted, this is what was necessary to turn Runaan's from an item that was severely mediocre on most characters into something actually competitive, but it'll still be weak on some.

Then again, I said Ardent Censer would singlehandedly break Janna and Soraka when it was introduced, and then it proceeded to not even be a core item, so I've certainly been wrong before.

[shadow_archmagi]

Oh jeez, that new mastery that gives HP builds lifesteal proportionate to their HP. Yeah sure, I'll take an extra hundred damage onto the occasional basic attack. Tahm Kench OP!

[Reinboom]

I've got mixed feelings on the whole vision changes. On the one hand, I carry games out of the support position by warding for info, and this will really change that. On the other, maybe this will finally be the change that sees people other than Lee Sin jungle helping ward if they aren't in the support slot (At my MMR of course).

The ADC itemization changes are something I'm going to hold out on making a snap judgement on; the only thing I'd say is very strong just on first look is new Runaan's. Granted, this is what was necessary to turn Runaan's from an item that was severely mediocre on most characters into something actually competitive, but it'll still be weak on some.

Then again, I said Ardent Censer would singlehandedly break Janna and Soraka when it was introduced, and then it proceeded to not even be a core item, so I've certainly been wrong before.

Part of the hope is to make the vision game more attractive.
We got a LOT out of season 3's vision changes, but it's still a deeper aspect of the game most players just don't get into. :(


I actually expect SOME part of the Marksman items to break (so scared about Essence Reaver. )
We've been conservative in the past with this type of things and choice doesn't change up much.
So these changes are a bit intentionally outside of our comfort zone.

I'm also worried about Hurricane. If it's too good on just on hit-ers and not enough other characters, I have another change lined up for it, that's roughly:
"Bolts deal 35% of an attack's damage"
The 35% applying to on hit effects as well. So better for most Marks, worse for on hit Marks.

[Antonok]

Part of the hope is to make the vision game more attractive.
We got a LOT out of season 3's vision changes, but it's still a deeper aspect of the game most players just don't get into. :(

Unless it involves killing something, getting people to ward is going to be an ice covered uphill battle with a Nunu at the top throwing giant snowballs down. Even giving people a free ward didn't really do much.

[Godskook]

So the first one is to kill all of the major regen tanks and the second is to kill all the health stackers ever.

@Reina, when are these ever not the same target?

[Ashen Lilies]

Swain, Vladimir, Aatrox. Warwick. Akali.

Even in cases of tanks like Dr. Mundo and Volibear who are both big health stackers and big healers, it should be pretty simple to take a moment to evaluate the last few fights and think to yourself, "am I failing to kill these guys because they heal too fast, or because they're so fat that I'm not even getting them down to that stage in the first place!?" and make itemization decisions accordingly.

[Eldariel]

Part of the hope is to make the vision game more attractive.
We got a LOT out of season 3's vision changes, but it's still a deeper aspect of the game most players just don't get into. :(

I think it needs to be something brought up in a tutorial; how far up a lane you can afford to be with certain amounts of vision coverage, how that influences enemy play and objective play too is something that's really important to the game, but less intuitively obvious than "see enemy, kill enemy". A tutorial that shows "being here with no vision here and enemies out of sight can easily lead to you getting killed - place ward here and see it coming in time" or something of the sort; a less hamfisted idea of the same principle. See enemies coming to attack you with wards -> escape in time; fail to ward -> get killed.

[ex cathedra]

@Reina, when are these ever not the same target?

Swain, Vladimir, Aatrox. Warwick. Akali.

Even in cases of tanks like Dr. Mundo and Volibear who are both big health stackers and big healers, it should be pretty simple to take a moment to evaluate the last few fights and think to yourself, "am I failing to kill these guys because they heal too fast, or because they're so fat that I'm not even getting them down to that stage in the first place!?" and make itemization decisions accordingly.

i'd assume that they aren't meant to have the same amounts of potency; the giant slayer is probably 'pretty good' against a wide range of targets while the executioner's calling upgrade is probably 'really good' against mundo and friends.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Lucian, Olaf, and Miss Fortune walk down the street killing ghosts. It's canon.

[Landis963]

Lucian, Olaf, and Miss Fortune walk down the street killing ghosts. It's canon.

Well, Olaf keeps getting distracted by a kraken ghost and his death-wish, but yeah. (Seriously, Olaf and his kraken-ghost is the most metal thing in this entire update, and I'm not certain whether Morde's had a cameo yet)

EDIT:

Spoiler: Shadow and Fortune, part 4

Show

No big game-changing event here, but given that Illaoi's been spotted as an upcoming champ on the PBE, I think we can devote a bit of time to speculating on how she'll work. Definitely a tank-style champ, but she needs something to differentiate her from Braum, so maybe that idol of hers acts like Orianna's ball? Presumably she'll have yet another circular AoE ultimate, presumably a swirling, white mist of spirits a la Kindred's or Karthus' ults. Unlike them, however, I suspect she does mass silence (along with perhaps a small DoT on non-allies). Or perhaps it's designed to give allies a safe place to go B, regardless of turret presence, which might suggest ally shroud and enemy silence.

[Anarion]

I think it needs to be something brought up in a tutorial; how far up a lane you can afford to be with certain amounts of vision coverage, how that influences enemy play and objective play too is something that's really important to the game, but less intuitively obvious than "see enemy, kill enemy". A tutorial that shows "being here with no vision here and enemies out of sight can easily lead to you getting killed - place ward here and see it coming in time" or something of the sort; a less hamfisted idea of the same principle. See enemies coming to attack you with wards -> escape in time; fail to ward -> get killed.

Random thought based on this. What about a custom game mode in the same vein as doombots, but where enemies and teleport anywhere in fog of war (and will have a priority AI to teleport to encircle people when possible)?

[Lethologica]

Random thought based on this. What about a custom game mode in the same vein as doombots, but where enemies and teleport anywhere in fog of war (and will have a priority AI to teleport to encircle people when possible)?

Bait towerdives, win. Or just gang up in a lane together. If neither of those works, life gets difficult.

I assume this wasn't meant to teach warding.

[Maryring]

I finally got around to trying Kindred and... I just might have to buy them. Despite the silliness of the concept, they make jungling so much fun.

Also I really love the new introsong. Cheesy like a cartoon moon, but it really helps set you in the proper mood. If you can Reina, do give my regards won't you?

[ImperatorV]

Also I really love the new introsong. Cheesy like a cartoon moon, but it really helps set you in the proper mood. If you can Reina, do give my regards won't you?

I feel the same. A small number of the lines are cringe-worthy, but for the most part it's kind of inspiring. I might watch the finals now (assuming it works out with my schedule).

Also, I have a suggestion for the warding problem: create a new honor for warding! Wait, no, that's silly. Also half the people never honor anyway.

[thracian]

Heh, I played in a game the other night where our jungler just spammed wards from his sightstone on the fountain for the last ~25 seconds of the game. Ended up handily outwarding the entire enemy team in postgame stats.

[Godskook]

Swain, Vladimir, Aatrox. Warwick. Akali.

Uhm....

Swain - Has historically always built RoA and gone down a solo lane. This puts him *SQUARELY* in the category of "500 more HP than a duo-lane ADC" and 200-300 above the solo-laners, -if- they stay even with him in levels.

Vladimir - Haha....no. I know you know what his passive is. Very squarely and very blatantly in both categories.

Aatrox - Has historically always built enough HP to land squarely in both categories.

Warwick - Has historially always built enough HP to land squarely in both categories.

Akali - ok, you got me. That's 1 champion on the roster where the choice to go Reminder over Regard is -not- a "they both apply, but this one applies better".

Even in cases of tanks like Dr. Mundo and Volibear who are both big health stackers and big healers, it should be pretty simple to take a moment to evaluate the last few fights and think to yourself, "am I failing to kill these guys because they heal too fast, or because they're so fat that I'm not even getting them down to that stage in the first place!?" and make itemization decisions accordingly.

The Riot-stated goal of these itemization changes are to give ADCs better item choices beyond a straight "which item gives me more DPS". With the last whisper upgrades, we've got mostly 4 groups:

1.Targets that it doesn't matter which you build against because they don't have notable mechanics involved.

2.Targets for whom Regard is obviously better.

3.Targets for whom Regard and Reminder both apply, but its a matter of which one results in better DPS.

4.Akali and Soraka...and well, I suppose other ADCs.

And honestly, I don't understand why we're introducing an LW upgrade who's most obvious use-case is squishies, especially since the LW is losing the full-pen in exchange for -bonus- armor pen akin to Yasuo.

[Ashen Lilies]

Glad to know condescension is still alive and well in your toolset. I'm out.

[Reinboom]

The Riot-stated goal of these itemization changes are to give ADCs better item choices beyond a straight "which item gives me more DPS".

This is wrong.

The goal of these itemization changes is to give Marksman meaningful choice.

Any choices you observe or statements of a finer granularity than that is not the goal. Straight up.

Each subset of the Marksman items were broken up into a subexploration of that goal.

"Accentuate the choice you made at champion select" - Essence Reaver, Infinity Edge, BorK, or Triforce.
"Enable more direct choice in autonomy in play pattern" and/or "Enable strategic fight engagement style choices" - PD, Shiv, Firecannon, Hurricane.
- Subnote on this one, it's our held belief that this can't readily occur while a straight up damage choice is obvious for all strategies. This is specific to these items.
"Enable more choice in how you prioritize your builds versus your opponents." - Last Whisper line of items + Vampiric Scepter line of items.

[shadow_archmagi]

Any tips on playing Morde as an ADC? He's pretty weird, and I was never a good ADC, but I felt like I should have at least one champ because you never know what lane you'll get in soloque. So far I tend to get wrecked during laning stage but then come back hard during teamfight phase as Mace of Spades gives almost guaranteed kills.

[Siosilvar]

Any tips on playing Morde as an ADC? He's pretty weird, and I was never a good ADC, but I felt like I should have at least one champ because you never know what lane you'll get in soloque. So far I tend to get wrecked during laning stage but then come back hard during teamfight phase as Mace of Spades gives almost guaranteed kills.

I heavily recommend learning an actual ADC instead if you're bad at the role. Morde is far too comp-dependent and snowbally to work as a comfort pick in an unfamiliar role. I hate to beat a dead horse, but Caitlyn really is the best option - she's on the safe side as far as carries go and, aside from a weak midgame (which may or may not change with the preseason rework), is effective pretty much no matter what. Ezreal is a strong option, too, especially because his mechanics are a bit more like a mid laner than most other farming bot laners (aside from actual mages, which have yet to be more than just off-meta pocket picks).

[Godskook]

Glad to know condescension is still alive and well in your toolset. I'm out.

1.I wasn't being condescending.

2.What you just did -is- an Ad Hominem(Point! Counterpoint! Counter-counterpoint! You're being condescending!)

This is wrong.

The goal of these itemization changes is to give Marksman meaningful choice.

Any choices you observe or statements of a finer granularity than that is not the goal. Straight up.

Each subset of the Marksman items were broken up into a subexploration of that goal.

"Accentuate the choice you made at champion select" - Essence Reaver, Infinity Edge, BorK, or Triforce.
"Enable more direct choice in autonomy in play pattern" and/or "Enable strategic fight engagement style choices" - PD, Shiv, Firecannon, Hurricane.
- Subnote on this one, it's our held belief that this can't readily occur while a straight up damage choice is obvious for all strategies. This is specific to these items.
"Enable more choice in how you prioritize your builds versus your opponents." - Last Whisper line of items + Vampiric Scepter line of items.

Can you explain why Riot thinks GW is a good fit for a LW-based item when, to me, it seems like either an opponent is too squishy to warrant upgrading the GW to a LW item, or so tanky that the use-case blatantly overlaps with the other LW upgrade?

[Ashen Lilies]

If I feel like I'm being patronized to, I'm being patronized to. You don't get to dictate to me my own feelings. Never have, never will.