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    Default Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    After seeing a horrible homebrewed version of Pathfinder's Gunslinger class imported to 5e (through this thread, I'm wondering how to do firearm-based characters in 5e. The simplest option would be to treat crossbows as firearms, but I wondered what about games which don't use Feats? So I present a couple of fighter subclasses meant to utilise firearms. So PEACH?

    Musketeer
    Okay, I need to get better at writing flavour text, the point here is essentially somebody who focuses on sharp-shooting or similar. Pretty much only compatible with the archery and defence fighting styles, but if you want to rule that some or all deeds do not require a firearm in your games, that's great and good for you.
    Superiority Pool: at 3rd level a Musketeer gains a superiority pool, which can be used to perform tricks. The Pool begins with four superiority points and you gain an extra superiority point at 7th, 15th, and 20th level. Spending a superiority point does not cost an action. You regain all superiority points when you complete a short or long rest.
    Spoiler: points not dice
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    The reason I'm using points here is so I don't feel like I have to shoehorn rolling a die into every power I write for this class. I also decided to give an extra point at 20th level as they gain less than any other subclass from extra attacks.
    Deeds: a Musketeer gains access to three deeds of his choice, and gains access to an extra deed at 7th, 10th, and 15th level. A character can only use one deed in any given turn. Deeds can only be used while your character is using a firearm, unless otherwise noted.
    Spoiler: Deed List
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    Aim: if you did not move during your last turn and have not been hit by an attack since the end of your last turn you may spend a superiority point in order to gain advantage on your next attack roll.
    Crippling Shot: if one of your attacks deals more damage than the target's constitution score you may spend one superiority point in order to render either an arm or a leg useless. If a leg is crippled the creature drops to half move, a crippled arm becomes useless for manipulating any items. A crippled limb may be healed with a short rest and a DC 15 Medicine check, or any amount of magical healing.
    Devastating Shot: You may spend a superiority point and give up any number of extra attacks in order to add extra damage dice on your next attack roll. For each extra attack given up you gain one extra damage die and your dexterity modifier.
    Get to Ground: if an effect allows you to make a dexterity save for half damage, you may spend a superiority point before rolling your save. If your save is successful you take no damage from the effect. You can use this deed even when not wielding a firearm.
    Lucky Shot: if you roll a 19 on an attack roll and would hit, you may spend one superiority point to treat the attack as a critical hit.
    Menacing Shot: you may spend a superiority point and forgo all your attacks in order to fire a single shot to intimidate. Enemies within 30ft must make a save against a DC equal to (8+your proficiency bonus+your charisma modifier) or gain the frightened condition for 1 round.
    Precise Shot: you may spend a superiority point to ignore cover for all attack rolls this turn.
    More to come when inspiration strikes
    Rapid Reload: you may ignore the loading weapon quality when using firearms.
    Lie Still: at 7th level you do not suffer the disadvantage on attack rolls from the prone condition while using a firearm.
    Professional Soldier: at 10th level you gain training in two of Athletics, Medicine, Perception, and Survival. You also regain 1 extra hit die every day, even if you do not complete a long rest.
    Insert ability here
    Always Ready: starting at 18th level whenever you roll for initiative and have no superiority points you regain two superiority points.

    Outrider
    Yeah, probably not the best name, I'm open to suggestions for better ones, the idea is a character who uses many pistols to launch several attacks per round. This subclass is designed so that characters that use the archery, two-weapon fighting, or defence fighting styles and ranged weapons with the loading quality, while being more of a skirmisher.
    Quick on the Draw: you can draw and/or stow a one-handed ranged weapon as part of an attack.
    Spoiler: Huh?
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    The idea here is to allow the outrider to be able to fire off several attacks in one turn, with weapons that have the loading quality. For 3rd level characters this is pretty much a ribbon, but at level 5 it allows you to draw a pistol, make your first attack, and then draw a second pistol and attack. A 20th level Outrider with the archery fighting style and 20 Dexterity is making 10 attacks at +14 for 1d6+5 damage each, with the possibility of using his bonus action for an attack that deals 1d6 damage, while am Outrider who took two-weapon fighting is dishing out 5 attacks at +12 dealing 1d6+5 damage. It does require more weapons than most classes, but never more than you have attacks.
    Hard to hit: at 3rd level an Outrider is able to dodge and weave between enemies. All opportunity attacks against you suffer disadvantage.
    Shoot on the run: at 7th level you gain the ability to make a bonus action attack when you take the dash action. At 10th level this attack becomes part of the dash action.
    Fast feet: at 10th level you gain the ability to dash as a bonus action.
    Instant Draw: at 15th level you become able to use one-handed ranged weapons to make opportunity attacks.
    Hail of Bullets: when you reach 18th your shots go where you please as fast as lightning. You may reroll any damage dice that roll a 1 when using a ranged weapon with the loading quality. You may not reroll a reroll.
    Spoiler
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    Yes, this subclass basically assumes that you're using a battlemap. At 10th level you should be moving at double speed every turn while firing off 4 or 5 shots unless you need to disengage, at which point you can still move at double speed and fire off a shot.


    Firearm Stats
    Should probably supply these.
    Pistol: treat as a hand crossbow.
    Musket/Rifle: treat as a heavy crossbow.

    Why just crossbow stats? Because I don't have time right now. Also, because I want GMs who dislike firearms to be able to adapt these subclasses for crossbow users, or even bow users. DMG firearms are also acceptable.

    More edits to come when morning arrives in England.

    Changelog:
    19/12/15: changes to a couple of deeds, a slight edit to Lie Still, Lie still was moved to 7th level for the Musketeer, and the Outrider's Hard to Hit ability replaced Tireless March, and a new 18th level ability was added.
    18/12/2015: reworking of Lie Still and simplification of professional soldier.
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2015-12-19 at 05:27 AM.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    A few comments

    Crippling Shot - Always forces the DM to look up a Con score and might be very difficult/ impossible to cripple big creatures? Maybe make this a Con saving throw.

    Outrider Pistoleer? Gunslinger?

    Shot on the Run should be Shoot on the Run?
    You surrender after you're dead. Lan Mandragoran

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calen View Post
    A few comments

    Crippling Shot - Always forces the DM to look up a Con score and might be very difficult/ impossible to cripple big creatures? Maybe make this a Con saving throw.

    Outrider Pistoleer? Gunslinger?

    Shot on the Run should be Shoot on the Run?
    If the DM has the con mod (for saves) they can easily have the Con score... If they allow this subclass they can just keep the creature's Con scores handy (like they would with all the creatures ability scores). Con save would be more fluid but not having the Con score of a creature is a weird thing to say.

    Some creatures can/should be impossible/almost impossible to do certain things to.

    I like the Outrider name, reminds me of a very wasteland type character who uses a gun (or any other weapon really).

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Seeing Lie Still...how about an ability to shoot guns from prone position without disadvantage?

    There are firearms in DMG p.268 they use higher die then crossbows (d10 pistol/d12 musket), but cost more and have much shorter range

    I'd rather see Crippling Shot with a Con save and maybe somehow limited duration...until they recieve magical healing, perhaps? Also, doesn't explain what "arm useless" means in the rules. Disadvantage on attacks and ability checks using that hand?
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Words
    Alright, looked over it and a couple concerns.

    Musketeer
    • Deadly aim is horrible. Let them choose to use it after the dice roll so it becomes useful and cool, and maybe call it lucky shot. If you want a deadly aim, that should probably be something that can target someone's unarmored ac (like shooting through kink in an armor type or the holes for the eyes).
    • Devastating shot seems like a decent idea, but is actually weak because you would have gotten the damage modifier (dex) on that shot if you took it instead. Why not spend a point to make a singular attack as action, then, if the attack hits, roll damage as if you hit all your attacks from the attack action. That way, it is a pretty devastating shot, especially if someone buffs that shot. Seems like a fun thing to do as a player because the chance for a beautiful critical hit. And fun for a DM, because the chance for a beautiful critical miss.
    • Lie still feels really iffy and lame. You already get double proficiency on athletics and perception. Now you get double proficiency on a particular situation that -- for most -- will not likely occur commonly once you get to 15th level. I also think this tries to shoehorn players into a forced playstyle and should probably be scrapped for a new idea.


    Outrider
    • I do not really think tireless march is good flavor or skill wise. I say this because being fast and agile and being able to walk a long time are entirely different ideas that do not even use the same muscles, and forced march is really really situation (you can just use a horse usually). I think you should give your 18th level ability at level 3 (especially as 3 is pretty much a dead level the way this archetype works, and would be bad for a player).
    • The 7th and 10th seem like one feature to me. Maybe give them the ability to make a bonus action to move half their movement and make one attack all at 10th level as one feature?
    • There is no real flavor feature, you should try to get one at 7th or 10th. Maybe dealing with production of ammo/weapons, since they will need a lot. Simply double proficiency on crafting ammo/weapons seems flavorful and really useful at 7th level.
    • Instant draw seems cool, but should clarify the range of those opportunity attacks (not range of weapon I assume, probably 5 feet)
    • I already mentioned that your 18th level ability should be given at 3rd level. I think this level should be something else. Maybe something tied to action surge?


    Overall, I still like this idea a lot ^+^
    Last edited by ji6; 2015-12-18 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    What about a subclass feature that allows a reroll of 1 or 2 on a firearm damage die a la GWF? I like it, but it might be a bit much in tandem with the class features of with a full firearm class, if you see what I mean.

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Sorry for the short post, I'll reply when my dad's WiFi is back (I'm in his house until after Christmas), I've got a list of replies ready to go. Thanks for the replies and suggestions so far, this is my first piece of serious homebrew in years. Already got some changes lined up, I'm liking the possibility of maybe refilling 1s on damage dice for the Outrider's new 18th, and Lie Still is getting the following change:

    Lie still: at 15th level you may ignore disadvantage on attack rolls when prone when using a firearm.
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2015-12-18 at 06:04 PM.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Lie still: at 15th level you may ignore disadvantage on attack rolls when prone when using a firearm.
    Maybe it is just the RAW in me... that should read:

    Lie still: at 15th level when you do not suffer disadvantage from the prone condition when using a firearm.
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calen View Post
    Maybe it is just the RAW in me... that should read:

    Lie still: at 15th level when you do not suffer disadvantage from the prone condition when using a firearm.
    Yours makes for bad clarity...

    Lie Still: When prone you do not suffer disadvantage when you make a weapon attack with a firearm.

    Though in all honesty level 15 is waaaaay to late for this feature. I wouldn't make this anything past level 8 or 10.

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordChuck View Post
    Yours makes for bad clarity...

    Lie Still: When prone you do not suffer disadvantage when you make a weapon attack with a firearm.

    Though in all honesty level 15 is waaaaay to late for this feature. I wouldn't make this anything past level 8 or 10.
    No, because that means that NOTHING can give you disadvantage when prone and making a weapon attack with a firearm. Calen's wording specifies that you don't get disadvantage FROM being prone, as opposed to not having disadvantage WHILE prone.
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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    No, because that means that NOTHING can give you disadvantage when prone and making a weapon attack with a firearm. Calen's wording specifies that you don't get disadvantage FROM being prone, as opposed to not having disadvantage WHILE prone.
    "Lie still: at 15th level when you do not suffer disadvantage from the prone condition when using a firearm."

    This is not clear at all.

    If it is a level 15 feature then making prone take away all disadvantage (as I wrote) is fine for me. You are still at a "disadvantage" if a melee type gets up on you. Still not overpowered by high level standards.

    But the original idea of prone doesn't give disadvantage is a level 8 ish feature.

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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Okay, the main reason I'm not using the DMG firearm rules is because I don't have the money for a DMG. I actually like the idea of firearms having higher damage, but would personally put the pistol at d8.

    Crippling shot is not a Con save for one reason: for me taking out a dragon's claw with a bullet breaks verisimilitude. I'll add in alternate rules for making it a Con save though, a note for what a crippled arm does, and rules for healing the damage (DC 15 Medicine check and a long rest, or any magical healing).

    Shoot on the Run is a better name, I'll edit it in.

    I hadn't actually noticed that Prone gives disadvantage on attacks, I'll change Lie Still to shooting from prone with disadvantage, it's exactly the sort of thing that I wanted for the Musketeer. It forces the playstyle somewhat but does so by opening up an option.

    I like the lucky shot idea, I'll replace deadly aim. I was also considering a precise shot deed that allows ignoring cover.

    Also will probably change devastating shot.

    The Outrider's tireless march was from before I had settled on skirmishing, and was left in because I didn't have a replacement ability. I might move Hard to Hit to third level, now that I look at it it's not as powerful as I assumed, and will give a nice bonus until Quick on the Draw is actually useful.

    The 7th and 10th features were originally one, they allowed you to dash as a bonus action while gaining an attack equivalent to one from Two-Weapon Fighting. I might merge them back together if other people feel the elegance is better, but I prefer how they feel separate.

    I like the idea of being good at crafting guns and ammunition. Maybe proficiency with a gunsmith's kit at 3rd and double proficiency at 10th? (7th?)

    Instant draw is intended to be limited to 5 feet. I'll specify that the ability does not increase your reach.

    Not sure about a new 18th level. I'll have a think and see if I can come up with something impressive, useful, and balanced.

    I also intend to add in subclasses for a couple of other classes once I get ideas, again with the idea that the rules don't specifically mention firearms but hint at them.

    I'll probably move Lie Still to level 7 and change it to:

    Lie Still: at 7th level you do not suffer the disadvantage on attack rolls from the prone condition while using a firearm.

    I might merge it with rapid reload, call it 'rifle trained' or something. I also need a new 15th level ability for them.
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    Default Re: Like we need more firearms (subclasses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Crippling shot is not a Con save for one reason: for me taking out a dragon's claw with a bullet breaks verisimilitude. I'll add in alternate rules for making it a Con save though, a note for what a crippled arm does, and rules for healing the damage (DC 15 Medicine check and a long rest, or any magical healing).
    But dragons and similar high end monsters are the only exception, the ability would be autosuccess against pretty much everything else (If you go with DC being 8+prof+dex as similar abilities, you'll end up with highest possible DC 19 against Ancient Red's +16 Con save and Legendary Resistance, with the ability being as it is, with Dex 20 and Sharpshooter, you can automaticaly cripple anything with Con 16 and less (even more with magical gun, Bless, Elemental Weapon, Sneak Attack or any other ability that increases damage) and can possibly cripple anything up to Con 26...less then ARDy's con 29, but a lot more then most of the MM, but add few levels of rogue for Sneak Attack, and you're getting there easily. With a crit, you can easily cripple Tiamat.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
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    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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