wizard doing it all DM help

[the_david]

Do you adjust the encounters to the size and level of your group? Red Hand of Doom was written for a group of 4 players that starts at level 5 or 6.

[johnbragg]

One of my close friends always plays a Wizard and as a DM it used to be hard to keep the other players interested. Or keep him from trivializing everyone else's roles.

We have worked together over the years to try and bridge this gap. And for the most part we are successful. Here are my thoughts. And I want to note these may not work for everyone.

1. Discuss with your Wizard the effect it has on the game and try to build the relationship. Much of the time when they see that being god can degrade other people's play they might pull back a little. I have found discussions not in front of the main group are best. As it is easy for these discussions to put a Wizard on the defensive.
:D

This is good advice, but I don't know that it's good advice for OP's table. Same level is a good idea, but it's probably too late for that. OP's wizard is dominating the game through blasting. He's dominating because everyone else is slacking, as in not using their abilities well. The Barbarian isn't raging. The greatsword-wielding Fighter isn't power-attacking. the Bard isn't singing. The cleric is at least using spells. Maybe in a later encounter we can show the cleric how to buff allies during combat, or use Dispel Magic to debuff the baddies.

The Wizard is playing right, relative to everybody else at the table. They need to step up their game.

[Caedes]

This is good advice, but I don't know that it's good advice for OP's table. Same level is a good idea, but it's probably too late for that. OP's wizard is dominating the game through blasting. He's dominating because everyone else is slacking, as in not using their abilities well. The Barbarian isn't raging. The greatsword-wielding Fighter isn't power-attacking. the Bard isn't singing. The cleric is at least using spells. Maybe in a later encounter we can show the cleric how to buff allies during combat, or use Dispel Magic to debuff the baddies.

The Wizard is playing right, relative to everybody else at the table. They need to step up their game.

Good to use the same amount of advice with the other players. Have a little 1on1 session with them as well. And be like. Hey, you know you can do this right? I am not sure as to how new the players are, but sometimes new players are scared too use what they have. either due to forgetting or thinking that x/rounds of rage a day is very small. Sometimes, it takes a slap to the head and what do you think Bards do? They play music! Do it!

:D

As far as the equalization of the levels. I do not think it is ever to late for that... May have to sacrifice half a gaming session so everyone can level. But it can be done. :D

[nedz]

As far as the equalization of the levels. I do not think it is ever to late for that... May have to sacrifice half a gaming session so everyone can level. But it can be done.

Nah - just have the Wizard shake hands with a couple of Wights

Seriously: if you are having balance issues then making everyone the same level should be the first thing you try.

If one player is simply more able though, then I suspect you would have this issue if he was playing a Monk. There is nothing we, or you, can do about this: it's an issue for the players to resolve and everyone has to learn. Encouraging a debate about tactics may help and you could have an NPC initiate that quite easily.

[Gabrosin]

I'm surprised more people haven't advocated for improving the opponents' defenses. Adding in better saves, spell resistance, spell reflection, and anti-wizard tactics will help make the other party members (appear) more useful. It's true they might encourage the wizard to adopt even BETTER tactics, like party buffing... but party buffing doesn't have the same "the wizard is doing everything" feel to it. When an unoptimized mundane suddenly becomes large and hasty, they're having too much fun smashing to realize how screwed they'd be without the buffs.

In a large group it's more important than ever for each party member to have their day in the sun. Keep track of who's doing the most and who's doing the least, and adjust your encounters to favor the ones getting the least action. Throw in additional non-combat encounters if need be. Maybe the rogue needs to disable some traps, or the monk needs to... meditate, or something. If the wizard jumps in to try to take over those things as well, then you know you have a serious problem.

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm surprised more people haven't advocated for improving the opponents' defenses. Adding in better saves, spell resistance, spell reflection, and anti-wizard tactics will help make the other party members (appear) more useful. It's true they might encourage the wizard to adopt even BETTER tactics, like party buffing... but party buffing doesn't have the same "the wizard is doing everything" feel to it. When an unoptimized mundane suddenly becomes large and hasty, they're having too much fun smashing to realize how screwed they'd be without the buffs.

A really good way to get all that is to just apply the Spellwarped template (MM3) to some of the monsters in the module. They gain SR that has a unique property of dispelling any spell that fails to overcome its SR. This could potentially prevent the spell from hurting other foes hit at the same time (I'll have to look up the specifics of the ability to be sure). (Sorry, this is how one of my old DM's ran this, and the mistaken idea has stuck with me; they do get bonuses from spells that fail to overcome their SR, though).

That's just something off the top of my head that may alter the encounters to make it harder for the wizard to deal with 90% of things on his own, and require some of the other players to shine a bit (and may lead to the wizard altering spell tactics on his own as a result.)

Given the size of your party, changing one or two of the monsters in each encounter into a Spellwarped creature may bring the encounter level up, compensating for the large number of PC's.

It even fits somewhat with the later implications of the adventure. Azzar Kul (sp?) is looking at bringing some interesting creatures to bear upon Brindol, and later... the other city (forgot its name). Maybe Spellwarping is an early effect of whatever Azzar Kul is doing...

[CMagnum]

Do you adjust the encounters to the size and level of your group? Red Hand of Doom was written for a group of 4 players that starts at level 5 or 6.

the_david, I have been upping the difficulty for the encounters, adding more enemies and often increasing the level or HD of what they are facing. We have just completed Rhest as well, so I think they are on track level wise. Did have a decent amount of random encounters along the way.

Caedes, I have discussed one on one with the wizard and the barbarian (my roommates) and they are both aware and open to these ideas that have been presented. I will have similar conversations with the others as well.

Hopefully all it takes is a little more awareness on the part of the less influential party members to up their game. As has been stated, the blaster wizard is not overly strong, it is mostly that the others are not using their abilities to their fullest which is creating a more significant power dynamic than might normally take place.

nedz, As far as experience goes, the lower level characters are getting more XP per encounter than the others so as long as they keep showing up they will balance out in a few weeks. I feel like this method encourages people to show up but doesnt keep them behind forever.

ksbsnowowl and Gabrosin, I will check out the template, I like the idea.
Edit: I like the spellwarped template, definitely will be throwing that in on some baddies!

[ericgrau]

so the whisper gnome wizard 8 has for feats: improved initiative, scribe scroll, spell penetration, focused caster and arcane thesis.

They are spread from level 6 to level 8 (the wiz is level 8) and I would say that the rest of the party is not optimized at all. I have been playing with the group for one year (and that was my start) however I enjoy reading forums and have put a lot of time into the game resulting in myself being the most knowledgeable about 3.5 by a decent amount, the rest of them are pretty casual. I would say the wiz has put the most time into learning and reading ideas out of the group by far.
He does a lot of blasting but also has mage armor, fly, glitterdust and a few other utility spells up his sleeve. Weasel familiar that he keeps out of the fight.

The following doesn't belong in low optimization: whisper gnome, arcane thesis. Tell him sorry but no, swap them out.

As for having a barbarian that won't even rage and a cleric that wastes round 1 casting sanctuary every fight, that's an additional problem. Rage adds a lot of damage. 1 early round for every fight could add a lot of anything. The cleric could at least wait until he's in danger or has an extra round. Power attack OTOH doesn't actually add much damage because of the attack penalty. More likely he has poor feat choices in general; perhaps others he doesn't use either. Encourage the barbarian to rage. Dunno how you can convince them if you say you've already tried, but I'm just saying rage, budgeting your rounds and feat selection all make a huge difference. Maybe you could ask them what they want to do and give custom feats, spells and/or ACFs towards those ends; don't need to be that strong as long as they actually use them unlike their current abilities. Or point out existing feats, spells, etc. Like instead of saying "healing is suboptimal" which the cleric may not care about, there's augment healing and close wounds. Plus in lower optimization healing isn't so bad.

Dunno what happened with the bard and monk but I know they are both very hard for low skilled players to pull off. Could pull up some guides or allow rebuilds as other classes.


RHoD is a third issue. It expects area damage or other mass effects to be handy because of the mass foes. It even recommends it specifically. But then mass foes should likewise fear mass damage from years of experience. Have any with a ranged weapon ready actions to disrupt casting. They are a well trained army after all; should be standard tactics. Anyone that looks like a wizard, sorcerer or druid should be an automatic target.

Good luck.

[ZeroSpace9000]

Just one thing I wanted to put out there quickly. If you have PCs who are behind on levels because they don't show for sessions, DON'T assume they will catch up via XP bonuses. If they're back 2 whole levels, that's a lot of sessions they've missed. Add in the power disparity due to optimization level and class selection, and the gap will probably just increase even more. This may cause them to just drop out completely.

Don't have any other nuggets right now, partly because I don't know enough about the people. I'll read this again, when I get home.

[ksbsnowowl]

Have any with a ranged weapon ready actions to disrupt casting. They are a well trained army after all; should be standard tactics. Anyone that looks like a wizard, sorcerer or druid should be an automatic target.

This is really sound advice. Hobgoblins are lawful evil. They should be trained, and the above should be paramount among the training. The Red Hand has casters, and their leaders are casters; they would instruct their soldiers to do as recommended above.

For example, in the very first ambush, there are... six?... hobgoblins ambushing the party with bows. Have at least one, maybe two, not fire on the party to kick off the surprise round. Instead, have that one or two ready actions to fire at anyone who starts casting a spell.

[johnbragg]

Oh, by the way, what IS the wizard's Arcane Thesis spell? At 8th level, I suppose he could be dropping empowered, maximized burning hands for 30 hp, reflex save for half. But that's not a great use of a 4th level spell slot. IS he empowering fireball?

[AnachroNinja]

OP already stated that the arcane thesis spell is scorching ray, so his area spells are just using his native caster level. That said, forcing him to change his race and feats arbitrarily is a terrible idea.

Not only is whisper gnome not a particularly optimal choice for a wizard as compared to many other options, but arcane thesis is neither broken in general on its own, but is not overwhelming in particular when applied to scorching ray. At level 8 with the +2 CL boost he's not even gaining a damage boost from it currently due to the way scorching ray scales. On top of that, the individual rays give it a much greater level of vulnerability to fire resistance of any kind, and it's SR:Yes.

While he has certainly taken some good options, nothing he is using is really optimized. He just picked a pretty good race and a good feat. Don't penalize him for that.

[Scorponok]

To OP:

A couple of things you can do. An evocation wizard is actually the easiest to combat.

- Instead of making fighters go against the party, consider rogues, or some other class with good reflex saves. This makes a difference between taking 30 damage per fireball or 15 damage. Surviving one fireball and being able to charge the wizard next round makes a lot of difference in the outcome of the battle.

- Have your enemy NPCs come out of hidden walls and trapdoors and charge the party from behind. This can turn out very bad for the low HP characters. Enemy NPCs should spread out to avoid fireballs.

- More encounters per day. In this case, a sorcerer might actually outshine a wizard when it comes to spells per day. More encounters mean more spells get used and an unspecialized wizard may not have the longevity of a sorcerer.

- Arrows, arrows, arrows! A surprise attack, or an encounter where the enemy NPCs get to attack first can virtually half the wizard's HP from a distance with arrows. Better yet, arrows, wait for the wizard to put up a Wind Wall, then the enemies retreat. Level-3 spell wasted for the day and one less potential fireball to worry about.

- Enemies with equipment with resistance to fire. I give some of my enemy NPCs cloaks that absorb 10 points of fire damage then dissipate. This helps them survive at least the first fireball, and they would not be that expensive.

- Drow Poison: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison
Save is DC13 but wizards don't have great Fort saves unless they've dumped their feats and ability score improvements into CON, and failing the save means unconsciousness. Your semi-boss having arrows tipped with these is completely reasonable. It's probably not nice to have all your enemy NPCs carry it though.

You don't want to make the wizard player feel like he's being unfairly targeted, but if one enemy NPC survives the encounter or gets away, he can tell his friends to be wary of the wizard next battle, and to target the wizard first. This is fair, and will make the player playing the wizard feel like he's gaining some notoriety in your world.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Would the monk need to stop monk progression if they took sacred fist PrC?

Both Sacred and Enlightened Fists advance some of the monk's primary features along side advancing the spellcasting ability from their divie or arcane casting class, respectively. Enlightened fist is stronger for a front-liner gish and enlightened fist is better for a more utility focused character, IMO.

[Fizban]

In the red hand of doom 3.5 campaign I am running we have a seven person party consisting of a rogue, a fighter, barbarian, wizard, monk, bard and cleric. I am finding the wizard to be overly competent and damaging, greatly out shining the others in damage and overall ability. He is just blasting the hobo's and dealt about 90%of the damage to both dragons they have encountered so far. Does anyone have any ideas of how to give the others a better chance to shine in this action without needing to restrict the wizard too much? I have been giving out items specifically for the others and excluding the wizard from good items. Do you think that more encounters per day could help so he can't just blast away all day? He likes evocation spells which have been great at dealing with the masses of weaklings. Maybe adding Spell resistance to the tougher monsters? Any ideas would be appreciated.

My immediate first response is that the wizard is pretty much just doing their job. RHoD is built with the assumption that you'll have someone dropping Fireballs or equivalent and that's just what they're doing. The only way to change this is to make the enemies tougher so they survive the first Fireball, and increase the other player's mobility enough that they can reach the battle before it's over.

Case in point: when I ran the module myself, the arcanist slot was eventually filled by a wizard-Malconvoker. Unfortunately summon spells are Short range and require time to deal with multiple foes. When compared to the dark paladin riding a fiendish pegasus with an improved flight maneuverability feat (net result some 140' good, note that pegusai special mounts are right there in the DMG and there are several versions of the feat in various books), well the wizard was quite frustratingly useless. The high speed mounted melee character could zoom out and crush dudes with medium strength power attacks before the wizard was even in summon range, and so the poor Malconvoker had to pick up a Runestaff of Fireball and Lightning Bolt just to have the capability to contribute in many fights. Sadly he got critted to death right before the temple at the end where summons would have been great.

Reading a bit further down the thread, yeah you've got the classic problem. Uncharitably, the "lazy mundanes vs engaged caster," where the only player interested in optimizing has taken the most powerful class, and the rest of the players can't be bothered. Fixing this requires brute force either rigging the fights in-game, making them stop and actually engage in character creation out-of-game, or playing hardball until they die enough to realize they need to step up their game on their own. Plenty of good suggestions above regarding show-don't-tell on what they could be doing better, more foes spread further apart so they don't all die at once, keep everyone at the same level, maybe force the wizard on the defensive a bit with readied archers (also gives the cleric a priority healing target).

A bit of a shock might help jump-start their systems: it's astonishing what happens when a party loses their main caster*. Have the wizard player take a day off or get conveniently wrecked by something (drow poison+"failed" saves works), and the rest of the party faces a mid-high encounter without the blasting. If they see that even without the wizard around stealing the glory they can't get the job done, they might be more receptive to beefing up their characters (I allow rebuilding and tweaks whenever needed, restrictions on stuff like that are for videogames not actual people). Or they might just hate the wizard for being so "OP" without even trying. It's a possibility anyway, dunno if it's the best option.

*Saph's got a nice campaign journal with some serious sorcerer game, and while all the party members are required for victory (lots of teamwork and synergy), it's still hilarious when half the party goes "looking for trouble" without the caster so they can get the last few xp before levelling up, invariably ending up dead-er and worse off than they were before.

[Merellis]

I suggest reading the RHoD DM Handbook for ideas on buffing the monsters.

Though, this is exactly the kind of campaign where a blaster wizard shines. Hobo's everywhere with low enough HP that Fireball is the best spell ever when they're grouped!

[ericgrau]

See below

"OP already stated that the arcane thesis spell is scorching ray, so his area spells are just using his native caster level."
And mass foes are individually weak so area spells need no boost. Now he's ready for everything.

"Not only is whisper gnome not a particularly optimal choice for a wizard as compared to many other options,"
It's significantly better than gnome, particularly for a ray caster which needs attack bonus at any level below ~11-13. Attack bonus, touch AC, HP, moving away from danger quicker. And it's no big fluff deal to switch to gnome.

"At level 8 with the +2 CL boost he's not even gaining a damage boost from it currently due to the way scorching ray scales."
Cheaper empower or maximize too. Also caster level helped at level 5 when they started and will help at level 9 which is about to come.

"On top of that, the individual rays give it a much greater level of vulnerability to fire resistance of any kind, and it's SR:Yes."
Even as the most common resistance fire resistance is rare, temporary spell switching is trivial, and yet he has a feat for that just in case. I ignored that feat because resistance is so insignificant and mainly only comes up in nay saying. Rarely in any session logs or any help X went wrong threads. SR is more common, which is probably why he built up a +6 against it.

"While he has certainly taken some good options, nothing he is using is really optimized. He just picked a pretty good race and a good feat. Don't penalize him for that."
+10% damage from his race, +25% and in 1 level +75% from arcane thesis, a bit more from a weaker feat, a bit more from another weaker feat, and suddenly he's dealing the damage of 1.5 to 2 characters. It all adds up. Plus his allies not even playing up to low optimization (no rage, etc.), plus the campaign itself. Now he's more like 3-4 characters and it's way out of hand. That's why I zeroed in on everything abnormal. It all adds up.

Yes 1 feat/ability/race/situation out of several that only 1/10th breaks the character is completely broken because then he can take 9 more.

[CMagnum]

Wow, there is a lot of information coming in. Thanks for everything. I have talked to most of the group, got a few things in place for their next encounter to encourage a more unified party play style, used some templates and will employ some of the tactics mentioned. I am not going to get the wizard to change or ban anything (yet). We will see on Monday how everything goes..
Thanks again for all the info and ideas you have all been very helpful
CMagnum

P.S. I'll let people know how the next session goes, probably posting on tuesday in this thread

[AnachroNinja]

Standard gnome is certainly not a gold standard for wizards, and I'm not sure why that is what you would compare whiskey gnome to. A better example would be the standard choice of human, which would grant him the bonus feat to potentially actually have empower or maximize, those two feats you called out as the reason his arcane thesis is over powered.

We don't know if he had arcane thesis at level 5 so your assertation as to its utility is pointless, but if he did, then yes, he gained 3d6 damage over any standard d6/CL spell. Hardly outrageous. And next level he will gain a third ray, which is not a 75% increase in damage, but then in but sure why I expected that to make any sense after your assertation that it is currently adding 25% damage rather then the 0% it actually accounts for.

So at its peak, we will have a 9th level wizard doing an average if 42 per spell, with 3 attack rolls, and he can do that probably 5-7 times a day depending on how many utility spells he feels like sacrificing. This is compared to the average of 20+ damage per hit that the party fighter is doing, assuming he took no feats and it's using some standard magic great sword for his level.

Yes, let us tremble in fear while clutching our nerf bats, and hope that the mighty blaster wizard doesn't spot us. *sigh*