Can Ansom win in one turn?

[Krelon]

Now that all the dwagons are gone and there are only crap units in the city...

Could Jillian + Webinar + girlfriend + Gwiffons + Archons + whatever flyers can be put together take Gobwin Knob in one strike?
(I assume the walls are useless vs. flyers)

What does Stanley have to counter a swift attack?

[TiamatRoar]

A hefty chunk of gobwins and uncroaked and twoll garrisons and spidews, if I had to guess.

[Twilight Jack]

I imagine that a swift attack would be enough to hurt but not enough to claim the city, which would be necessary to declare "victory." Also, fliers are not immune to attacks from non fliers except over deep water and forests. In Gobwin Knob, archers can do their thing just fine.

[SteveMB]

I imagine that a swift attack would be enough to hurt but not enough to claim the city, which would be necessary to declare "victory." Also, fliers are not immune to attacks from non fliers except over deep water and forests. In Gobwin Knob, archers can do their thing just fine.

Er, it's "water, mountains, and heavy trees". An example of "mountains" is "a dead volcano"....

[Krelon]

A hefty chunk of gobwins and uncroaked and twoll garrisons and spidews, if I had to guess.

shouldn't the gobwins be in the tunnels below the city ? (because of the feint Ansom was planning the tunnels could be actually 'outside' the city).
As for the other units I've seen only one Twoll garrison (now lackey) and the uncroaked infrantry seem to be rather fragile.

I imagine that a swift attack would be enough to hurt but not enough to claim the city, which would be necessary to declare "victory." Also, fliers are not immune to attacks from non fliers except over deep water and forests. In Gobwin Knob, archers can do their thing just fine.

ok, but are there any archers in Gobwin Knob? Stanley didn't show any to Parson.

[TiamatRoar]

shouldn't the gobwins be in the tunnels below the city ? (because of the feint Ansom was planning the tunnels could be actually 'outside' the city).
As for the other units I've seen only one Twoll garrison (now lackey) and the uncroaked infrantry seem to be rather fragile.

I find it very hard to imagine that the flying force alone will be enough to take on the army pictured in this page. The flying force is the smaller of the two groups, after all, and if the smaller of the two groups was enough to take on the entire city without any siege, one must ask why Ansom bothered lugging those slow siege units along. Gobwin Knob might be losing but it still has a sizeable force, as shown in these depictions. And Wanda herself confirms there are still at least 200 LIVING men left there, and there are still the hobgobs and the spidews. Ansom was hoping that Stanley would commit some uncroaked to the tunnels due to the Marbit feint, too, so uncroaked can't be THAT weak.

That said, I can't think of many strategy games where fliers are allowed to ignore city defenses and fortifications, either.

[Radar]

1. We don't know, what kind of defences Gobwin Knob has.

2. Someone has asumed, that a city is one hex only, but i doubt it. I would rather make cities a 7 hex circle or something like that to distinguish outer defences and castle itself (besides: a road can be two hexes wide sometimes, so why a city would be smaller?). Basing on this i would say, that it would be hard to wipe a city in one turn. You just wouldn't have that much move. But that's not that inmportant argument.

3. Most likely only archons and some gwiffons can reach Gobwin Knob in one turn - it's not that much, as one would want for a sure victory.

4. Last but not least: if such a strike would fail Ansom's flying forces would be open for counterattack and would be wiped easily (heavily wounded, far from allies). Ansom doesn't know, how big army Stanley has in Gobwin Knob, so he can't take the risk - he can't even plan such a strike witout any info.

[Twilight Jack]

Er, it's "water, mountains, and heavy trees". An example of "mountains" is "a dead volcano"....

Good catch, my bad.

[TiamatRoar]

The fact that fliers can't be attacked while they're parked over mountains doesn't matter if you're trying to take the city in one turn. If you're trying to take the city in one turn, then by definition that means that your enemy won't have a chance to attack you, whether you've parked your fliers over mountains or not, because by the time it's your enemy's turn, your enemy is DEAD (assuming you succeeded in taking the city in one turn, which must be done because the dragons can get back in one turn)

1. We don't know, what kind of defences Gobwin Knob has.

We do know that it has the strongest natural/innate defense in the known erfworld, at least according to Stanley. What Parson said about the volcano providing a natural defense seems to indicate that Stanley is most likely correct about that assessment.

[CNagy]

The fliers are still melee units; sure, they could fly straight in and stay above the city, but if they wanted to deal any damage they'd need to get down on ground level to do it. Ansom's original plan was to have Jillian and the fliers neutralize Stanley's Dwagons; if the Dwagons aren't there, they can aid in the ground battle but they aren't the force that was meant to take the city.

[ryos]

This also assumes that Parson and Stanley sent all of Stanley's dwagons to ambush Ansom, which I don't think is a valid assumption. Remember that Parson is only using the force of Dwagons sent for the ambush in his siegebusting campaign, and we were never told whether or not this force constitutes all of Stanley's dwagons.

Personally, I think Stanley would be a fool to commit all of his dwagons anywhere but inside Gobwin Knob.

I have always wondered what Ansom planned to do once he arrived at Gobwin Knob with all of his flyers. How would he manage to even enter the tower of Efdup, let alone rescue Jillian from its bowels? Did he mean to fight the air battle early, wiping Stanley's dwagons? Then, what, end turn above the city and slip in at night? Can you even end turn on a hex occupied by enemy forces?

It makes no sense to me, and for that reason I think perhaps an early air assault on GK (which otherwise also makes no sense) has merit. Of course, now Ansom is distracted by the Siegebusters, so it probably won't happen.

[Krelon]

the core of the counter-attack idea was that

• Ansom was thinking his fliers +Jillian can counter the dwagons at least partially
• Dwagons are the core of Stanleys forces
• Thefore fliers+Jillian must be really good units
• Dwagons are now in the hex-fort (Parson used all for maximum effect)
• Gobwin Knob has only basic infrantry left
• Fliers should be able to fly over the walls without the help of siege

Jillian looks very unhappy to be put on stand-by. Maybe (having the points listed above in mind) she will go for it, the loose cannon she is.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

their fastest air units move 22...the doombats are slow as hell...nd the orlyies have a move of 18...the Dwagons have a move of 50+ it is likely that the air units Ansom has cannot reach Gobwin knob before the dwagons get back the next turn.

Also, while the air squad can keep the dwagons busy at least if not defeat them, often air units cannot hold cities in games...if every unit goes underground if attacked by just air units, they have nothing to fear until backup arrives. They do indeed have some archer units though...otherwise, why have walls to defend...if you have them, you got archer units and likely some siege weapons for counterbattery...to not have such is just so dumb to be retarded...I doubt even Stanley is that bad of a leader, or that Wanda at least would not have made sure they had basic defensive capability. With those archers, they can attack any fliers that raid without a ground force to divert arrows. And then...there is Wanda...probably the most powerful magic user in erfworld...I doubt that Ansom doesn't know about her and her capabilities...We don't know the extent of her capabilities, but she seems very capable...and good mages can sway battles singlehandedly.

[Mystyco]

The question can now be turned to: CAn Ansom Win?
actually, well over this, if ansom get his best unit to attack 3 (number, three t-h-r-e-e) low-level dwagons and wast ALL his moves for that turn it's probably not winning this war.

also, how was he planning to kill undead warlord with the arkenpliers? battle?

Actually, no, he can't "win" in one turn (gobwin is too well defensed, remember that, like wanda said "...we have a small army"

[kpenguin]

Let me be the first one to draw the groans and state that Ansom cannot win beacause the protagonist is on the other side and winning would ruin the story in the first book.

[Radar]

their fastest air units move 22...the doombats are slow as hell...nd the orlyies have a move of 18...the Dwagons have a move of 50+ it is likely that the air units Ansom has cannot reach Gobwin knob before the dwagons get back the next turn.

Bats have 22 move, but geiffons have about 52 and oriles have 44.

As for raiding Gobwin Knob in one turn: even if Ansom could do it, it wouldn't end the war, unless he would capture Stanley - see here. Then on the next turn dwagons would wipe Ansom & friends; he could make an even fight with dwagons only with all his flying units, however for striking Gobwin Knob, he could use only the fastest and there aren't many of them.

[Krelon]

Bats have 22 move, but geiffons have about 52 and oriles have 44.

As for raiding Gobwin Knob in one turn: even if Ansom could do it, it wouldn't end the war, unless he would capture Stanley - see here. Then on the next turn dwagons would wipe Ansom & friends; he could make an even fight with dwagons only with all his flying units, however for striking Gobwin Knob, he could use only the fastest and there aren't many of them.

BUT ... Ansom would get the treasury. Then Stanley cannot pay the upkeep for any of his units. Stanley + Arkenhammer + Wanda? + Sizemore? escape but there will be no army to fight back. For me it looks like the Arkenhammer can atract dwagons so they join your army, but with the upkeep issue they will not fight until Stanley has another city/treasury.

[Radar]

BUT ... Ansom would get the treasury. Then Stanley cannot pay the upkeep for any of his units. Stanley + Arkenhammer + Wanda? + Sizemore? escape but there will be no army to fight back. For me it looks like the Arkenhammer can atract dwagons so they join your army, but with the upkeep issue they will not fight until Stanley has another city/treasury.

Hard to tell. I was thinking, that Arkenhammer allows Stanley to control dwagons without paying their upkeep. Dwagons are mind-controled, so it's not like they can abandon Stanley, if he doesn't pay them - or so i think.
There are about 46 dwagons - Stanley wouldn't be probably able to pay their cost having just one city.

[Lord Zentei]

Er, it's "water, mountains, and heavy trees". An example of "mountains" is "a dead volcano"....

It would be a rather odd place to put a city if the garrison's archers were non-functional there. Perhaps Gobwin Knob is classified as a "city" rather than "volcano" even though the city is built on one? Much like in Heroes of Might and Magic etc, the fact that it is a city could supercede the terrain underneath.

[phobiandarkmoon]

And you're forgetting the fact that often cities and the like count as a different type of terrain in these types of games (ok, so the squares around the city are mountainous, but the city itself could count as 'city' terrain)

[SteveMB]

It would be a rather odd place to put a city if the garrison's archers were non-functional there. Perhaps Gobwin Knob is classified as a "city" rather than "volcano" even though the city is built on one? Much like in Heroes of Might and Magic etc, the fact that it is a city could supercede the terrain underneath.

I'd guess that Stanley's gobwins are "mountain-capable" or "city-capable" (whatever terrain Gobwin Knob counts as), thus enabling them to shoot at enemy flyers from their defensive fortifications. As you say, it would be silly for him to pop units that aren't very good for defending his city.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

It's impossible for ansom to win in one turn. His flying units are on a leash and I suppose they are too weak and not to mention too few to croak all defenders in a single turn, which would be required to conquer the castle.

Besides, it is not his strategy to do so. He is the kind of general that prefers conventional warfare. His plan is thus, the traditional tactic of surrounding the city and then storming the walls and tunnels with his forces see page 21: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html ... albeit, storming the walls is becoming less and less of an option due to his depleting store of siege equipment. He might actually have to resort to swarming the tunnels with everything he has, instead of just the marbits. actually, this will keep his army relatively safe from the dragons during the first stages of the assault, but might land him in more trouble than he bargained for when his troops attempt to break to the surface as the tunnel is narrow and leaving the tunnel would mean exposed flanks untill the exit is secured... which will be difficult with wounded troops and an enemy dwagon force hovering above... those can also be used to cut of the enemy's entrance point once they have gone into said tunnels....

There's an increasing amount of entrapment strategies for Stanley's side every turn Ansom loses siege weapons, scouts/bats and airpower.

[Smiley_]

It seems to me that people are getting the impression that in Mountain, heavy forest, and deep water hexes, only terrain capable units and flier units can hurt other fliers in that hex. It was said in klog 6 that only terrain capable and fliers could attack fliers in one of these hexes. That means that if Ansom's fliers attacked Gobwin Knob, they would have the whole garrison defending against them, doing damage. As I understand, Gobwin Knob is protected by a whole bunch of twolls, gobwins, hobgobwins, and a lot of uncroacked units as well as some resident dwagons. If the flying stack were to attack, it would most likely be destroyed.