Blood Bowl itP IV: Anything But A '1'

[Cheesegear]

Dead Tree Blood Bowl post.

Spoiler: Dark Elf Positionals

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Spoiler: Close Ups-ish

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Queen B (#14) is currently my star player, with double doubles; An Elf Blitzer with Guard and Mighty Blow. An Elf with two Strength skills is on so many drugs.

[Wraith]

You have done the same Dark Elf conversion that I saw and was planning - Dark Eldar Wych parts intermixed with those of Kabal Warriors. I was even planning on painting mine a similar colour, more teal than green so as to match the Scaretoon Network from the first Rookie season, but very close.

So, "very nice" and "get the hell out of my brain!", is what I guess I'm trying to say.

In unrelated news, I even managed to play with some of the models that I had painted. First time in 11 years, IRL, and it seems that I still have a little bit of the old magic; 2-0 victories against Orcs and Humans.

Spoiler

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The Polar Bear/Yhetee takes down the Line of Scrimmage almost single-handedly.


Touchdown number two on the way. There were barely 4 humans left on the pitch at this point, thanks to the combined efforts of the Ulfwereners Frenzy-pushing a bunch of guys into the crowd.


Didn't go ALL my way. I permanantly lost a couple of players to fouls, and the referee just wasn't interested. Jerk.

[Cheesegear]

Current Roster; TV; 1330, WDL; 2-3-2

#1. 100 - Lineman; +Guard
#2. 90 - Lineman; +Block
#4. 70 - Lineman
#5. 110 - Lineman; +Ag
#6. 90 - Lineman; +Kick

#8. 80 - Runner; Dump Off
#11. 100 - Blitzer; Block
#12. 120 - Blitzer; Block, +Dodge
#13. 100 - Blitzer; Block
#14. 160 - Blitzer; Block, +Guard, +Mighty Blow
#15. 130 - Witch Elf; Dodge, Frenzy, Jump Up, +Wrestle

I'm finding it really hard to level up my Runner, since I always get him the ball, then he gets blocked, Dump Offs to someone else, and that person scores. However, it is easier to level up players in Dead Tree Leagues due to how MVPs work, but I also like giving MVPs to my Linemen so they aren't useless.

[Wraith]

It feels like a piece of your soul is being wrenched aside, but you have to learn to let your Linemen die and focus on making your positionals sparkle.

It's both easier and more difficult to do with Elves, of any flavour.
Your "cheap" players still cost as much as some teams' special guys so you don't really WANT them to die through lack of Block/Dodge/Whatever, but at the same time they have a superior statline so even if someone dies, the replacement Loner is far more tolerable than, say, a Mercenary Human or Skaven. An uninjured Elf lineman is never useless - AG4 alone disproves that statement.

Get one of your Linemen an MVP and then a vanity pass to get your team Kick - that's fine. After that, though, you stop at nothing until your Positional players all have Blodge. It usually doesn't take long, but it requires discipline; from now on, you should ONLY ever put MVPs on #8, #11 and #13 until balance has reasserted itself.

[Cheesegear]

It feels like a piece of your soul is being wrenched aside, but you have to learn to let your Linemen die and focus on making your positionals sparkle.

It's almost like you think my opponents don't just ignore my Linemen and gun for my positionals - because I'm Elves, and all positional Elves deserve to die.

[Silfir]

Well, since they're gunning for your positionals, all the more reason to get them Block and Dodge as soon as possible, right?

[Wraith]

It's almost like you think my opponents don't just ignore my Linemen and gun for my positionals - because I'm Elves, and all positional Elves deserve to die.

And it's almost like you think I'm under the impression that your team just grabs the ball with the first person to get near it and then meanders in for a touchdown while your opponent moronically tries to eat the rulebook.

I wasn't trying to condescend to you, it was genuine advice. Elf Linemen don't need skills; an All-Lineman Elf Team is genuinely a thing that they can do, that other races can't, because they're so good.
Meanwhile, if your opponent is trying to kill your positionals, then that's why you need to get them all Block/Dodge/etc as soon as possible - their survivability and effectiveness correlates directly with your ability to win games and to maintain your team in the long run. Losing a Witch Elf or Blitzer early on can cripple your team for a whole bunch of games, and you're still not beyond that point.

Or don't. Killer linemen are always fun, but you asked about the Runner and so that's what I told you. *shrug*

[Cheesegear]

I wasn't trying to condescend to you

I was making a joke...But also not joking. Elf positionals deserve to die.

Meanwhile, if your opponent is trying to kill your positionals, then that's why you need to get them all Block/Dodge/etc as soon as possible

Or, I can level up my Linemen to make my positionals seem like less attractive targets. Especially - as you know - positionals are expensive, so when you level them, they only get more expensive.

their survivability and effectiveness correlates directly with your ability to win games and to maintain your team in the long run.

As you said, AG4 is pretty good. If I can level my Linemen so they all have Block - or Guard - and then one with Kick (to dictate where the ball carrier goes so my Witch Elf can Blitz), then I feel like I'll be in a good spot. But, I say this as an ex-Dwarf player where everyone has Block all the time, and as an ex-Chaos player, where Block is the single most important skill for everyone on the team.

Losing a Witch Elf or Blitzer early on can cripple your team for a whole bunch of games, and you're still not beyond that point.

One Blitzer has already been replaced because of Niggles (-1ST, ewww). I was saving for my third re-roll (I only have 2 ), but I bought back my Blitzer instead.

but you asked about the Runner and so that's what I told you. *shrug*

I guess I thought levelling a Runner would be easy*. Blitzers with Block just do one bash and take an MVP.

* I've only just found out that completing a Dump Off is supposed to give you an SPP. Well, that certainly changes things.

[Gauntlet]

Speaking of Dark Elves, I'm going into my third game of the league I'm playing tonight. So far I've got a 2-1 win against Skaven and a 1-1 draw against Ogres - my Runner scored 10SPP in a single game (two TDs, Interception, two Completions) against the rats then proceeded to get blitzed by an Ogre and died. Fortunately I had exactly enough cash to buy a new one, so it's not all bad. I managed to force a draw with a total of three players left on the pitch, though I could potentially have won with a a bit more Elvish Bull****™ (made ~8 rolls to get to the line with a Blitzer, failed the very last one).

#1. Line Elf (Agility 3)
#2. Line Elf
#3. Line Elf (Agility 5)
#4. Line Elf
#5. Line Elf
#6. Line Elf
#7. Blitzer (MNG)
#8. Blitzer (Dodge)
#9. Blitzer
#10. Blitzer
#11. Runner
(#12). Journeyman
2 rerolls.

Playing against Undead next. Expecting to get beaten down somewhat again, but I think I'll have the Inducements for a couple of Bloodweiser Babes which should hopefully keep enough of my players on the pitch to score some points.

AG3 Lineman, Journeyman, and some unlucky player with no SPP get the prize of being on the line of scrimmage.

[Wraith]

Or, I can level up my Linemen to make my positionals seem like less attractive targets. Especially - as you know - positionals are expensive, so when you level them, they only get more expensive.

There is a trade-off, I admit, and different proponents of Team Value management can argue it either way.

Generally speaking, though, early on it's always better to get a basic skill on a positional player than it is a Lineman. The cost to your Team Value is still the same, whether it's Block on a Lineman or Block on a Witch Elf. The difference is, the Witch Elf is a bigger investment and ought to be protected as early as possible; if the Witch Elf misses a game or dies, she will be replaced by a Mercenary Lineman until you can sink the immense amount of gold into getting another one. Whereas if your less-versatile Block-Lineman dies, you get back another comparable Lineman - the net loss to your team is softened.

Then again, micro-managing your Team Value to this level doesn't leave a lot of room for "fun". Even though it's a big cost on an insignificant player, I too would probably have taken the +AG on your Lineman. He's still a loser that can be blocked down like a chump, and he still eats the occasional reroll, and he has no offensive power to speak of.... but c'mon! AG5!

* I've only just found out that completing a Dump Off is supposed to give you an SPP. Well, that certainly changes things.

It is indeed a completed Pass; there's nothing about having it happen in your opponent's turn which changes any of the rules regarding that. You even get to use the rest of your passing skills, like Accurate and Nerves of Steel, if you're lucky enough to have them.

Playing against Undead next. Expecting to get beaten down somewhat again, but I think I'll have the Inducements for a couple of Bloodweiser Babes which should hopefully keep enough of my players on the pitch to score some points.

AG3 Lineman, Journeyman, and some unlucky player with no SPP get the prize of being on the line of scrimmage.

I would seriously consider sacking your AG3 Lineman and letting him be replaced by a Mercenary. AG3 is about as likely to eat a reroll as AG4/Loner, which is awful when you only have two of them, but the absolute last thing you need is for him to accidentally steal SPP from someone else, too. At least with a Merc, he's completely expendable BUT you can buy him after the match and get something back for your trouble if you're lucky.

[Gauntlet]

I would seriously consider sacking your AG3 Lineman and letting him be replaced by a Mercenary. AG3 is about as likely to eat a reroll as AG4/Loner, which is awful when you only have two of them, but the absolute last thing you need is for him to accidentally steal SPP from someone else, too. At least with a Merc, he's completely expendable BUT you can buy him after the match and get something back for your trouble if you're lucky.

I was gonna just stick him on the line of scrimmage and put a tackle zone on the enemy big guy until he dies. If he skills up, I can always just give him Dirty Player, in which case he doesn't exactly need to dodge very often. We're running with the new MVP rules (choose three models, d3 for who gets the 5spp) so I'm not too worried about him eating everyone's SPP.

Edit: Also I'd like to buy a Witch Elf in the near future, and at that point it would be nice to have 12 players so I can actually have a substitute, whereas if I fire my lineman I still won't have a backup if someone eats a casualty.

[Silfir]

I'd definitely keep the AG 3 guy. He's just as good or better at his job as/than a journeyman, and you have better things to do with your money than shell out for journeymen if your team lacks witch elves and a third reroll. Fire him if he ends up with an injury that makes him worse at taking hits, like niggles, -AV, -ST, or a persistent case of being dead.

Even if he does roll skills they're hardly wasted. You don't need to be AG4 to load up on Wrestle and Dodge and come out swinging in a brawl.

[Gauntlet]

Game went pretty well. 2-0 win to me (TDs on Lineman and the Blodging Blitzer) and scored one casualty while sustaining two - my Runner ate a Niggling Injury and one of my linemen is dead. I have all my Blitzers back for next game, though, which is pretty nice. I also managed to snag enough winnings to get an Apothecary, so hopefully we'll have less dead players in future.

AG5 Line-elf did a ton of work, dodging into three tackle zones to blitz the ball carrier, ending up in a very messy brawl before I managed to break free with Dump-Off to score at the end of the first half. Recieving in the second half, got to touchback the ball onto the Blitzer and caged up for a bit, before blitzing a Ghoul and a Mummy off the pitch and scoring. Managed to delay for the three turns before the game ended to avoid conceding on the backswing - solid wall of dark elves meant his Wight had to make too many dodges to get into the end zone in time.

Scenario question for you:

You have most of a cage set up on one side of the pitch. There's a Ghoul you just scored a push on and moved onto the sidelines. You have a Blitzer with block, dodge and the ball currently. Blitzing the Ghoul with your ball carrier requires a 3+ dodge, a 2+ dodge, and a one die block, but puts you a player up in numbers and also leaves your blitzer extremely safe to score next turn. You have a reroll, it's turn five of the second half and you're 1-0 up. Give it a shot or no?

[Silfir]

Game went pretty well. 2-0 win to me (TDs on Lineman and the Blodging Blitzer) and scored one casualty while sustaining two - my Runner ate a Niggling Injury and one of my linemen is dead. I have all my Blitzers back for next game, though, which is pretty nice. I also managed to snag enough winnings to get an Apothecary, so hopefully we'll have less dead players in future.

AG5 Line-elf did a ton of work, dodging into three tackle zones to blitz the ball carrier, ending up in a very messy brawl before I managed to break free with Dump-Off to score at the end of the first half. Recieving in the second half, got to touchback the ball onto the Blitzer and caged up for a bit, before blitzing a Ghoul and a Mummy off the pitch and scoring. Managed to delay for the three turns before the game ended to avoid conceding on the backswing - solid wall of dark elves meant his Wight had to make too many dodges to get into the end zone in time.

Scenario question for you:

You have most of a cage set up on one side of the pitch. There's a Ghoul you just scored a push on and moved onto the sidelines. You have a Blitzer with block, dodge and the ball currently. Blitzing the Ghoul with your ball carrier requires a 3+ dodge, a 2+ dodge, and a one die block, but puts you a player up in numbers and also leaves your blitzer extremely safe to score next turn. You have a reroll, it's turn five of the second half and you're 1-0 up. Give it a shot or no?

Likelihood of turning over on the maneuver is about 23%, I think? That's if the ghoul has wrestle, though if the ghoul has Block getting a Both Down won't be pleasant either. If the ghoul has neither Block or Wrestle and you can move to a safe space if you get the Both Down, it's a 16% failure chance.

Still: If you have a safe position that's less risky to achieve, no. If you have someone else who can do the block, no.

With only four or three turns left on the clock, the lead and ball in hand in the opponent's half, I don't think there are many ways you can lose, but if there are, they probably involve you turning over on a 1-die blitz with the ballcarrier.

[Wraith]

Silfir summed up everything I had to say, I think.

Ultimately, if there's a Ghoul that close to your ball carrier, then that same Ghoul is perfectly placed to grab a loose ball and tie up the game if you're choosing to make multiple dodges with risky blocks and it fails. A 1-0 lead is a precarious thing, and if all that stands between your cage and a second touchdown is one opposing player, waiting one more turn is usually the wise decision if only because it leaves one less turn for your opponent to retaliate thereafter.

[Cheesegear]

Tonight I got brutalised by a Human Team. The Score was 2-2, but I received 5 injuries - 3 of them Dead players.

Things went bad immediately on Humans' Turn 1, when I got a dead Blitzer. Use Apo to keep my positional. Aaand...Apo'd to Dead.
I lost my other Blitzer, too.
My Blodger got Miss Next Game.
And then my Kicker died.

All for a Draw. My opponent was still mad even though he racked 21 (plus Passes I think he did two or three) SPPs that game. "I'm still Elves. I only need three models on the pitch to score." Agility 5 is amazing.

Since players 11 and 13 (see above) were dead, I tried to give MVP to my Runner. But my Runner never wants to ever level up because Nuffle, and so I have another Level 2 Lineman now (+Block).

[Wraith]

I won't ask if the two dead Blitzers could have been saved if only they had Dodge. Instead: schaudenfreude! (NSFW for language)

Meanwhile, I've tentatively scheduled my next Dead Tree games with my Norse; more Orcs and then some Murderskaven. So long as I can get the Rat Ogre before it gets my Ulfwereners, I'm pretty confidant that I can hold back the worst of it.... Although somehow an Underworld Team has appeared in my carrycase, and their siren song is calling out to me.....

[Cheesegear]

Turn. One.

[Wraith]

Yep, that sounds like a bonafide GitP-associated Apothecary. I've lost count of the number of times that the Hammersjurg Destroyers rerolled "Broken Leg" into "Dead", to the point where I'm pretty sure I hired a Veterinarian rather than a physician.

[LordDavenport]

So, I was curious and wanted to try khornate deamons... what is the general community consensus? I tried finding them on BB tactics, and got nothing. Frenzy on everything seems interesting, but no source of strength 4+ besides the thirster makes it seem questionable. Also all the non-linemen seem to want to be blitzers and nothing else. Which is a problem because I usually want to give the blitz to the strength 5 giant deamon, so all my players might as well just have frenzy. With S3 and no block. Are they just a team you play until they get some skills and get good?

[Silfir]

I tried Khorne Daemons in a league, and found them very frustrating. They become more manageable once you load up on Block and Guard, but at TV 1000 you're more or less bottom tier.

Your positioning, decision-making and sideline play have to be pitch-perfect, otherwise I don't see how you stand a chance against bashy sides. Khorne is also pretty swingy; if you get a numerical superiority, Frenzy allows you to press it and ultimately increase it, but if you fall behind in numbers, you become, more or less, amazons that can't dodge or defend. I vastly prefer actual amazons.

Against agility sides, you're somewhat better off, but it's difficult to cage and stall properly against them; since most of your players lack the ability to extricate themselves from contact with opposing players with a simple block, it's difficult to free up cage corners. An imperfect cage leads to elves assaulting your ballcarrier, which leads to mayhem, which can lead to you having to score early, or even conceding a defensive touchdown, all of which are deadly against elves. On the plus side, your team should be thumping elves in the brawl as long as you have some Guard to work with.

Search the BB tactics forums for advice on Khorne Daemons; one forum member wrote a guide in the style of the ones found on the website and posted it there.

[Wraith]

Blood Bowl II: Legendary Edition has been announced, so I can finally answer Thufir's question:

What does it have that BBCE doesn't, to make it worth while?

...Or thereabouts. Something like that anyway.

BB2:LE will have all of the teams in BBCE, except that instead of Khorne Daemons they will have Kislev Circus (essentially a reskin of Slann; lots of Leap and Long Legs). So now the "BB2 doesn't have as many teams, so it's not as good" argument is gone.

By a long, long shot, in fact. Not only does it come with the 24 pre-loaded teams, but BB2LE includes Mercenary Teams - make up a team of whatever players you want, a la Chaos Pact but more insane. They'll have a special flag that means they'll only compete against other flagged teams, so there's no chance of a "normal" team having to face a Frankenstein's Monster of Elves, Dwarfs and Minotaur unless you want to.

BB2LE also has a built-in "Legacy League" builder; you can freely edit your team with Skills and TV to your whim, which gives that team a (separate from Mercenary) flag and so only plays against other flagged teams. Kind of fun, for those of you who hate playing TV1000 teams.

On top of that, there's a dozen new ways of building Leagues, with rules and options to allow pretty much any way that you could typically find IRL.

The only point of contest so far is the retail price. If you're straight-up buying BB2LE it's full price, and gets all 24 teams, but if you already have BB2 you'll get a discount depending on how many of the DLC teams you've bought, and you'll only get an 'upgrade' DLC rather repurchasing the whole thing again.
What this means is that if you haven't bought some teams, then upgrading to Legendary Edition will not automatically give them to you, and you'll still have to buy them separately.
Given that 6 of the 8 DLC teams have so far been given out for free it's not much more of a cost, and the only two that we've had to actually buy are Khemri and Chaos Dwarfs - you're hardly missing out on top-tier competitiveness if you chose not to invest.

So, there it is, I guess. The new answer seems to be "Yes, BB2LE is worth buying if you want something that BBCE can't do". Due date is "Summer".... which, by Cyanide's current track record, means "October".

[Silfir]

FINALLY Amazons. About bloody time!

[Wraith]

Oh yes, and there's also going to be an extra ~40 Star Players added from the original Dead Tree rulebook, meaning that almost everyone will have access to a Bombardier, a Chainsaw, a Blunderbuss, Assassin Knives, or at least a combination thereof as well as the return of a lot of famous guys that didn't make it into BBCE, such as Brick & Morty.

Not a huge addition, but a lot of those guys are comparably cheap for what they do and it's always nice to see some variety in your inducements.

On top of that, the Single Player Campaign Mode is back - at the moment, BB2 only has the Story Mode (Humans only) and the AI Leagues, but Legendary Edition will give us back the endless tournaments that any race can take part in. Again, not a huge benefit except to newbies who want to be able to practice with their team before they take it onto the ladder, but it's one more thing missing from the launch that is finally back where it should be.
Here's hoping that one will be able to convert their Single Player Campaign teams over to Legacy Multiplayer directly, rather than have to manually input all of your players as you can. That might be fun if you want to grind a team a little bit and then go PvP with it.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the return of Underworld. I've only played them once, in the GitP League, but they were great fun and now I miss them.

[Thufir]

What I'm taking away from this, Wraith, is that I was exactly right.
BB2 didn't have anything making it any more worthwhile than BBCE. BB2LE will, by the sounds of it, but my assessment of the base version was correct, and from what you say about the DLC teams it seems like it'll be simpler to have waited and just buy BB2LE.

[Wraith]

I don't remember disagreeing with you. I believe at the time I said it's a decent game but there was a lot missing, if your specific interests lay away from the updated graphics and larger pool of players, which was exactly the case.

As for simpler... Maybe. But the simpler option would have meant that I missed out on ~200 hours of gaming that I've since enjoyed. I don't consider that as being money misspent.

[Gauntlet]

Next round of my league is today. Playing against Humans - the final two fixtures are Halflings and Nurgle.

Currently on this team (Dark Elves):
3x Blitzer (no skills)
1x Blitzer (Dodge, Guard)
1x Line elf (AG3, Guard)
1x Line elf (AG5)
1x Line elf (Block)
1x Line elf (no skills)
2x Line elf (Loner)
1x Runner (Niggling Injury)

2 rerolls
Apothecary
Fan Factor 4

Hopefully going to be able to finally skill up one of two of my Blitzers to get some more Dodge or Tackle on to the team, and maybe save up for a Witch Elf. Only problem with buying a Witch Elf is that I'll only have two blank Linemen, which means someone actually good is going to have to end up on the line of scrimmage.

The hero blitzer has been claiming a ton of the SPP, so he's probably going to die in the near future, but at least he's a durable Guard piece which should be pretty useful until he gets fouled into the ground. AG5 line elf is going to be passing repeatedly until she's on 16spp to get her Wrestle for a cage breaking piece - hopefully before the Nurgle game.

[Silfir]

Next round of my league is today. Playing against Humans - the final two fixtures are Halflings and Nurgle.

Currently on this team (Dark Elves):
3x Blitzer (no skills)
1x Blitzer (Dodge, Guard)
1x Line elf (AG3, Guard)
1x Line elf (AG5)
1x Line elf (Block)
1x Line elf (no skills)
2x Line elf (Loner)
1x Runner (Niggling Injury)

2 rerolls
Apothecary
Fan Factor 4

Hopefully going to be able to finally skill up one of two of my Blitzers to get some more Dodge or Tackle on to the team, and maybe save up for a Witch Elf. Only problem with buying a Witch Elf is that I'll only have two blank Linemen, which means someone actually good is going to have to end up on the line of scrimmage.

The hero blitzer has been claiming a ton of the SPP, so he's probably going to die in the near future, but at least he's a durable Guard piece which should be pretty useful until he gets fouled into the ground. AG5 line elf is going to be passing repeatedly until she's on 16spp to get her Wrestle for a cage breaking piece - hopefully before the Nurgle game.

Can't you hire a witch elf and fire the niggled runner? He doesn't have any skills, you don't want him to get any since he's alraedy injured, and you want your AGI 5 guy to handle the ball anyway.

[Gauntlet]

Can't you hire a witch elf and fire the niggled runner? He doesn't have any skills, you don't want him to get any since he's alraedy injured, and you want your AGI 5 guy to handle the ball anyway.

Yeah, that's probably what I'll end up doing, but I'll want to buy another runner asap (I really like having a runner available) so it only temporarily fixed the problem. I guess one of my players is probably going to be injured or dead in any given game so I don't need to worry about it too much.

[Silfir]

What do you need the runner for? Your Blitzers (badly in need of skills anyway) have the MA7. All you get is Dump-Off, which isn't something that should majorly factor into your plans in the first place. I'd say Witch Elves have higher priority than runners do.