The LA-assignment thread

[khadgar567]

It may take a while: as things are now there's still a good amount of monsters to go through, including the 120 true dragons WotC thought necessary to create. Remember, drow aren't under the 'd', but the 'e'. They're a subsection of elves, after all.

I can wait but wow 120 dragons is there a humanoid variant in there?

[Inevitability]

I can wait but wow 120 dragons is there a humanoid variant in there?

Bronze, gold and silver dragons can assume humanoid form, but none are that shape naturally.

Haha, you're doing each true dragon age category as its own LA? My heart bleeds for you.

Know that I deeply appreciate your hemorrhaging cardiac organ.

[Flickerdart]

Fortunately, I think each dragon species has a cutoff where you can just say "LA 0 from this point onward". For instance, I can't imagine that a mature adult black dragon (a mighty 5th level sorcerer) deserves any LA on top of its 22 hit dice, good as those hit dice may be, because it's playing with the big boys in Epic territory. The threshold might be even lower.

[jindra34]

Might I recommend when you get to dragons to potentially do a table. Or at least do all of one type per post because ye gods thats going to be messy.

[khadgar567]

I think we have re post issue

[ExLibrisMortis]

I am looking forwards to dragons. Steel and mercury dragons are lonely at the top .

[Inevitability]

I think we have re post issue

What do you mean?

Might I recommend when you get to dragons to potentially do a table. Or at least do all of one type per post because ye gods thats going to be messy.

I'm definitely going to do one type a post.

I am looking forwards to dragons. Steel and mercury dragons are lonely at the top .

I won't be doing those, though. First I'm going to do all the PHB monsters: the non-core dragons will come later.

[Boci]

What do you mean?

You double posted. 362 and 364 and the same but for a smiley.

[No brains]

I'm excited to see dragons too because I had previously though dragon was the best creature HD, but others say it is outsider.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I won't be doing those, though. First I'm going to do all the PHB monsters: the non-core dragons will come later.

I mean that you'll be adding some competition for the steel and mercury wyrmlings, which is nice, because I might like to play a gold, at some point.

[Inevitability]

I mean that you'll be adding some competition for the steel and mercury wyrmlings, which is nice, because I might like to play a gold, at some point.

Ah, misunderstood you there.

I'm excited to see dragons too because I had previously though dragon was the best creature HD, but others say it is outsider.

It's a toss-up. Dragon has d12 HD (compared to the outsider's d8) and immunity to two semi-common effects, but outsiders have more skill points and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Then again, outsiders can't be easily resurrected after they die.

[Inevitability]

Dire Animals

More quirky, semi-prehistoric animals! Aren't you happy? I'm not.

Dire Ape

As far as melee characters go, one could do worse. Talking your DM into allowing a wielded weapon shouldn't be hard, and even if that doesn't work, there's mouthpick weapons. However, animal intelligence and 5 RHD cut down on versatility a bit. Still, the damage output is quite large for this level, so I'm playing it safe here and assigning them a +1 LA.

Dire Badger

Three animal HD net you great constitution and acceptable strength. Both can then get further boosted by Rage. A burrow speed and Track as a bonus feat add a bit of out-of-combat versatility. All things considered, +0 LA.

Dire Bat

High dex, good strength and constitution, large size, fly speed... and a single weak bite attack. I can't really see anyone playing these any time soon: even with mouthpick weapons there's better options out there. -0 LA.

Dire Bear

Yes, it's a giant fearsome bear. Yes, it's the poster child for dire animals. But honestly: do you want to spend 12 levels on being moderately good at mauling stuff? -0 LA.

Dire Boar

Ferocity is interesting, but a 1st-level spell does the same thing better. The huge strength bonuses and size would make dire boars attractive warrior-types, but they're going to have a very hard time wielding weapons. There's not even a bonus on charge attacks: -0 LA will suffice here.

Dire Lion

Stick to lion totem barbarians: the animal itself just isn't worth spending 8 levels on. Grappling is much less useful now that FoM is a thing, and the fact that one will need at least three expensive amulets to make the natural attacks viable isn't working in the lion's favor either. -0 LA.

Dire Rat

Do these guys have potential? I think so. The animal HD hurt less now that it's only a single one, and the dexterity bonus and free Weapon Finesse are a nice entry into Rogue. However, when a moderately optimized character can have four of these guys as pets at 1st-level, adding a LA above +0 just seems rude.

Dire Shark

18 HD means grappling jumped the shark (hah!) long ago. The relatively low strength (an orc barbarian is far surpassing it by now) isn't helping either. -0 LA (I keep repeating myself here, don't I?).

Dire Tiger

Hi there, dire-lion-but-bigger. Doubling in HD but increasing the stats only by a fraction of this does not a viable character make. *sigh* -0 LA.

Dire Weasel

This, at least, is somewhat more interesting. Like the dire rat, these guys have good dexterity, free Weapon Finesse, and good movement. Constitution damage is scarce at these levels, and combined with Attach a dire weasel character should bring something new to the table. I'm tempted to give it a LA, but that's probably just the endless line of worthless animals skewing my norms. +0 LA, I guess.

Dire Wolf

[insert GoT meme here]

Six RHD net you some admittedly high strength, but that's it. Either dire wolves focus on a subpar bite attack, or they get a Mouthpick weapon and lose their one special attack. -0 LA.

Dire Wolverine

Dire badger II: mushroom mushroom. (jokes are hard, okay?) Seriously: these critters are a lot like their badgerous kin, except bigger, with more strength and a climb speed replacing their borrow speed. It's alright, but not worth a LA over +0.

[InvisibleBison]

Dire Rat

Do these guys have potential? I think so. The animal HD hurt less now that it's only a single one, and the dexterity bonus and free Weapon Finesse are a nice entry into Rogue. However, when a moderately optimized character can have four of these guys as pets at 1st-level, adding a LA above +0 just seems rude.

Do all creatures with 1 racial hit die get to swap their RHD for class levels, or is that restricted to humanoids? And if dire rats do get to drop their RHD, would that justify a +1 LA?

[Inevitability]

Do all creatures with 1 racial hit die get to swap their RHD for class levels, or is that restricted to humanoids? And if dire rats do get to drop their RHD, would that justify a +1 LA?

RAW it's just humanoids and creatures that specifically say they do, like pixies.

If they did, assigning a LA would be more difficult. A LA-less dire rat would be somewhere on the strong side, while one with +1 LA would be much less attrative. I'm glad things are the way they're now.

[Troacctid]

According to Savage Species, all creatures who begin play with 1 RHD and no class levels have the choice of replacing it with their first class level.

[AMX]

A thought about those "weaker than LA+0" creatures... could they be fixed by giving them partial Gestalt?
Unlike "real" negative LA, that wouldn't produce "funniness" like HD exceeding ECL...

So instead of, say Dire Lion 8 / Lion Totem Barbarian X, you'd have Dire Lion 4 / Dire Lion//Lion Totem Barbarian 4 / Lion Totem Barbarian X

[Inevitability]

According to Savage Species, all creatures who begin play with 1 RHD and no class levels have the choice of replacing it with their first class level.

Wouldn't those rules get overwritten by the 3.5 books, just like the type pyramid?

A thought about those "weaker than LA+0" creatures... could they be fixed by giving them partial Gestalt?
Unlike "real" negative LA, that wouldn't produce "funniness" like HD exceeding ECL...

So instead of, say Dire Lion 8 / Lion Totem Barbarian X, you'd have Dire Lion 4 / Dire Lion//Lion Totem Barbarian 4 / Lion Totem Barbarian X

Interesting thought. Gestalt isn't really my forte, though...

[Thurbane]

In 3.5, the rules on whether all creatures with 1HD, or just humanoids (and other specifically saying so in their entries, like pixie), trade away 1RHD for class levels are pretty hotly debated.

From memory, Curmudgeon comes down on one ruling, and most others come down on the other...

[Troacctid]

Here is the DMG's version of the rule:

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature (such as a vampire or a lycanthrope; see the Monster Manual), it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character.
[...]
Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They get a feat for their first class level and multiply the skill points for their first class level by four (even if they have a level adjustment). Those with 2 or more Hit Dice have statistics based on these Hit Dice plus Hit Dice for class levels (if any).

Creatures with 1 RHD start play with a class level, period. The obvious interpretation is that the class level replaces their RHD. This is clearly the intent, IMO.

However, even if you disagree and you believe they have to keep the RHD—well, they get 4x skill points and a feat at their first class level. This means that they'd get the 1st level feat and the 4x skill points twice—once for the RHD and once for their first class level. Honestly, that might actually be a better deal than a class level in a lot of cases.

[Fizban]

I'm inclined to go with the Savage Species ruling as it's more consistent, but Savage Species level adjustments are all kinds of messed up.

Regarding the Dire Bear, here's a story. I like the Primeval PrC from Frostburn, it seems really cool. It's obviously weaker than normal Druid wildshape in the ways that matter, but you get some extra bonuses and run the stats off your own bases so it should be able to hit bigger numbers, right? Well the limit on choosing your Primeval form is that it has to be large or smaller, and there is only one large form that is king: the Brown Bear. So I statted up a Primeval with the fastest bashiest entry I could with Wildshape Ranger for extra uses and got. . . a Dire Bear. Around 11-12th, the moment when your primeval strength starts to really kick in and you've got enough uses to morph every fight, you can basically match a Dire Bear for a few minutes per day. Or you could just play a Druid and be a Dire Bear all day.

Might be worth noting that if it hasn't been: any bruiser monster that can be reached via wild shape is basically LA +0 by default because they could have been a Druid.

[Inevitability]

Okay, I guess that means 1 RHD races aren't a thing. I've taken a look at the list and found the following races with 1 or less RHD and readjusted their LA.

Two monsters have been changed as a result:

Small Animated Object (Carpet) +0 ---> +1
Darkmantle +0 ---> +1

[Thurbane]

Here is the DMG's version of the rule:

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature (such as a vampire or a lycanthrope; see the Monster Manual), it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character.
[...]
Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They get a feat for their first class level and multiply the skill points for their first class level by four (even if they have a level adjustment). Those with 2 or more Hit Dice have statistics based on these Hit Dice plus Hit Dice for class levels (if any).

Creatures with 1 RHD start play with a class level, period. The obvious interpretation is that the class level replaces their RHD. This is clearly the intent, IMO.

However, even if you disagree and you believe they have to keep the RHD—well, they get 4x skill points and a feat at their first class level. This means that they'd get the 1st level feat and the 4x skill points twice—once for the RHD and once for their first class level. Honestly, that might actually be a better deal than a class level in a lot of cases.

Thanks for the citation - that's how I've always ruled it, but it's nice to have the DMG to back it up.

[Inevitability]

Displacer Beast

Here, have some funny displacer beast-related content.

Quite surprisingly, displacer beasts already have a LA. Normal ones are at +4: pack lords are apparently too strong to allow as PC's (oh WotC, will you ever learn?). It should be obvious that this is too much.

First things first: displacer beast have decent stats, ranging from 18 (strength) to 5 (intelligence). Large size helps, though only their tentacles have actual reach. Apart from the two aforementioned tentacles, they also get a bite attack best used on a mouthpick weapon.

The special abilities are less bland: resistance to ranged attacks is a small situational bonus (albeit a pretty good one). Displacement is pretty awesome: it gives about everything a 50% chance to miss. Sure, there's a few ways of blocking it, but those are lacked by many monsters.

However, in the end I don't think DB's deserve a LA. Sorcerers, wizards, beguilers and even some clerics and druids can already cast Displacement several times a day, and as a purely passive defensive ability I can't help but wonder how useful it'll actually be.

I remain open to suggestions, and I could see people wanting to give a +1 LA here. If so, do not hesitate to tell.

Displacer Beast Pack Lord

Oh no! It's a displacer beast with a size increase and some ability boosts! What havoc will it wreck amongst the CR 18 monsters! -0 LA.

[Malimar]

Here, have some funny displacer beast-related content.

Credit: that first comic is originally by Lore Fitzgerald Sjöberg. He's got a bunch of amusing D&D monster comics in that series (my personal favorite is the griffon).

[Hurnn]

I almost feel that the positives don't outweigh the negatives of being saddled with some not great racial hit dice. Two good saves is cool but noting any number of pc classes don't get, large size but only gets reach with 2 pretty meh natural weapons. Not to forget 2 + int or in this case - int skills per hit die means 9 skill points to start with unless you invest super heavy in a stat that has a -6 penalty. Permanent displacement is pretty good but not really something an equal level pc cant get. Stats are a pretty mixed bag +8 st +4 dex + 3 con is good but then -6 int +2 Wis -2 cha really limits options. I am really am leaning towards la 0.

[Inevitability]

Doppelganger

More pseudo-aliens!

Also, can anyone explain to me how this is TN?

They are interested only in themselves and regard all others as playthings to be manipulated and deceived.

But enough about the logical weirdness of the pretend game monster, let's take a look at its abilities. 4 monstrous humanoid HD, small bonuses to all abilities, a weak slam, and (most importantly) Change Shape and Detect Thoughts.

Change Shape is semi-interesting, but it's barely more useful than a human with a wand of Alter Self. The same goes for Detect Thoughts: reading minds may be useful in some situations,

Would I play a doppelganger? Perhaps. Their HD leave enough room for martial adept or skillmonkey levels, and they have a few bits of material tailored to them (Mindspy, Able Learner). Would I play them at +1 LA, though? Definitely not. Current LA, which I can't imagine changing; +0.

Next up: Dragons! Oh god.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, I've just finished reading this thread. And I must say, I approve. When I was in late middle and early high school, I often played one-shot-or-so* D&D "campaigns" with my brother. A lot of the time, I slapped a class level or two on whatever monster I felt like. While I haven't played a monster character in a while (in part because it's usually not an option), I do still like playing unusual characters when I get the chance.
Also, I like dragons. Not as much as when I was in the aforementioned one-shot-ish-campaign phase, but they're still pretty neat. I look forward to seeing the first dragons tomorrow.

Spoiler: Off-Topic but Nostalgic Footnote

Show

*Though some lasted longer. Once, I played a played a pixie bard named something like Brodbigan who had a bunch of dips (I remember rogue, arcane archer, and dragon disciple). That one went on for a while; as I recall, it fell apart because my brother started giving just about every enemy a cloak of eyes because A. I kept using invisibility to make encounters easy and B. I pointed out that people can't wear robes and armor.
In retrospect, I should have tried gathering them up and selling them. Though I might remember my brother coming up with some excuse for not letting me do that...

The moral of the story is: However you think you should run/play D&D, middle-schoolers do it wrong.

[Troacctid]

Dragons are interesting because of their special weird rules for aging. If your character survives for a couple years of in-game time, they might suddenly find themselves forced to take additional racial hit dice or LA before they can continue in their class.

[Inevitability]

Dragons are interesting because of their special weird rules for aging. If your character survives for a couple years of in-game time, they might suddenly find themselves forced to take additional racial hit dice or LA before they can continue in their class.

I've seen at least one build that had a container of quintessence custom made to prevent as much aging as possible.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Dragons are interesting because of their special weird rules for aging. If your character survives for a couple years of in-game time, they might suddenly find themselves forced to take additional racial hit dice or LA before they can continue in their class.

If I was DMing, I'd let the players ignore that if they didn't want to deal with the hassle. If they were fine with changing that kind of stuff, there are rules in the Draconomicon for that.
Either way, I think it's fine to just judge each age on its own merits without worrying about the possibility of PC dragons getting extra complications as they aged.