Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XII - DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT!

[Ricky S]

Thanks Wraith that was very helpful. They haven't released too much information yet I see. The Fall of Cadia book should give me a bit more information, guess i have to drop $84 on it.

[Cheesegear]

Thanks Wraith that was very helpful. They haven't released too much information yet I see. The Fall of Cadia book should give me a bit more information, guess i have to drop $84 on it.

That's just it. Nobody has any information because the book isn't out yet. I don't know what you thought the answer was going to be.

[Ricky S]

That's just it. Nobody has any information because the book isn't out yet. I don't know what you thought the answer was going to be.

I got ahead of myself, I thought there was already a novel released on the subject.

[Cheesegear]

I got ahead of myself, I thought there was already a novel released on the subject.

Traitor's Hate/Angel's Blade, have the Black Crusade stamp on them, and I'm pretty sure that that's meant to mean that they tie into...Well...The Black Crusade (which I assume they mean the 13th...Not, say...The 1st). Except reading the last couple of pages of TH/AB, I can't see anything that directly and/or obviously ties into Fall of Cadia. The only thing I can think of, is that maybe a couple of characters on the Chaos side might show up on Cadia from TH/AB with some liberal uses of time dilation shenanigans, though I doubt it. However, during The 13th, Ka'bandha is supposed to come out of the Warp, piggy back onto Hive Fleet Leviathan and murder him some Blood Angels...Which I kind of hope that's what The Banshee Stone/Daemon Cage was for.

...Though I doubt it. However, TH/AB does mention the Pandorax campaign at least once. So maybe GW/BL does know what continuity is.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler

Show

40K's timeline advancing past 999.999.M41? Now that's some HERESY right there.

*BLAM*

Honestly it makes me nervous because it's pointing to the fall of the Imperium, and we saw what happened with Fantasy when they did the End Times.

...Which gave us 9th Age, so maybe it'd be for the best.

[Wraith]

Honestly it makes me nervous because it's pointing to the fall of the Imperium, and we saw what happened with Fantasy when they did the End Times.

...Which gave us 9th Age, so maybe it'd be for the best.

Disregard whatever you think about the Age of Sigmar rules or fluff; AoS has caused more sales of GW Fantasy miniatures in the last couple of years, than I've ever heard of in probably over a decade. Frankly, the success of AoS probably (which I'm saying as a layman, with no insight at all into GW internal policy) saved their Fantasy range entirely; had it continued as it was, or even managed only a small increase, I've very little doubt that the range would have been discontinued, as the sheer scale and investment on such a small return couldn't have been sustainable.
That's the bottom line to GW's bottom line - sales. If they thought a revised 40k timeline would do the same for their sci-fi range, when the sales for 40k are already their biggest cash cow, they'd be mad not to try. They're a business - they need to make money. And the benefit of trying it with 40k, is that if people don't like it then they can very, very easily transition to 30k - there wasn't an official alternative to AoS and it ultimately worked out okay.

That being said, I think there are some non-awful ways in which they 40k timeline could develop, and a lot of it (according to the little crayon-drawn picture that I have in my head) relies on the break up of the Imperium into smaller sub-factions.

Let's assume that the "big reveal" of 8th edition is the return of the Primarchs - it makes about as much sense as anything else, as the new Magnus model has proven that GW are wanting Primarchs to transcend the 30k/40k barrier. What does that mean for the Imperium?
Essentially, it'd be the end of the Astartes' subservience to the High Lords of Terra. Not that they are particularly shackled to each other at the moment of course, but against the words and legitimacy of, say... Rogal Dorn (sans one of his hands, perhaps) there wouldn't be a single Imperial Fists successor who'd take the word of the High Lords over His.... and I'd bet that his view of what the Imperium should be, differs very greatly from theirs and how it currently is.

There'd be some Astartes who would try to maintain good relationships with Humanity - that'd be the reason as to why you could continue to ally, in game, with the Mechanicus and Inquisitorial factions - but most would probably return to Legion-like behaviour beneath their Primarch, each of whom has their own new agenda. That means conflict between the Ecclesiarchy/Administratum and the majority of the Astartes with the Mechanicum and the Inquisition caught in the middle, with the Imperial Guard being mostly pro-Humanity but with enough regiments owing debts of honour to their realm (like Ultramar) to also "defect" to Primarch rule.

I think that'd be pretty fun. The Astartes would still fight for the Imperium against Xenos and Heretics, but would themselves be allowed to exaggerate their inherent differences so that the 15+ flavours of Space Marine are no longer so similar on the table. It'd also justify conflict with other Imperial forces to break up the huge and unwieldy "Imperium Faction" wedge which has caused so much strife for those players who cannot call upon 6 or 7 other Battle Brothers with which to build their lists.

[Cheesegear]

Essentially, it'd be the end of the Astartes' subservience to the High Lords of Terra. Not that they are particularly shackled to each other at the moment of course, but against the words and legitimacy of, say... Rogal Dorn (sans one of his hands, perhaps) there wouldn't be a single Imperial Fists successor who'd take the word of the High Lords over His.... and I'd bet that his view of what the Imperium should be, differs very greatly from theirs and how it currently is.

Let me tell you about one dude; Lord Commander (read; Warmaster) Koorland, The Last Son of Dorn.
Let me tell you about another dude; Chapter Master Maximus Thane.

Imperial Fists led The Reformation, and were the the deciding factor during the Siege of Terra during the Age of Apostasy. There was no Primarch around when Imperial Fists decided that High Lords needed executing. As far as I'm concerned (after having read War of the Beast) is that the High Lords rule the Imperium right up until Space Marines (specifically, the Imperial Fists, whose mission statement involves making sure Terra doesn't implode on itself) are no longer willing to put up with the High Lords' BS. War of the Beast is not subtle when they say that the only reason the High Lords exist, is because Space Marines let them. Because Space Marines actually have better things to do than worry about politicking - like actually defending the Imperium. If Space Marines have to turn around and punch a High Lord in the head - with or without a Primarch - they'll do it.

but most would probably return to Legion-like behaviour beneath their Primarch, each of whom has their own new agenda.

Strongly disagree. The Imperium the Primarchs left, would not be the same one they come back to. We've already seen Vulkan come back to M32 Imperium, and he didn't do **** (though I'd put that down to Gav Thorpe being terrible). Of course, Vulkan doesn't want command of the Imperium anyway - and he says as much. Mostly it'd be toss up between Guilliman, Dorn and The Lion. And the 'fight' would go roughly the same as it did the first time; Guilliman rallies all his dudes, threatens to fire at the undermanned Imperial Fists (especially given that Phalanx is currently on an unknown trajectory, speeding away from 9 Companies of Imperial Fists, and under siege by Be'lakor), and Guilliman puts himself in charge by threatening civil war if he doesn't get to be in charge - just like some other dude.

That means conflict between the Ecclesiarchy/Administratum

Any given Primarch murders the Ecclesiarch, and removes executive power from the position. Just like what's already happened once before. The Emperor is just a man.

I think that'd be pretty fun.

I think it'd be a rehash of the Horus Heresy, and completely unoriginal.

[lord_khaine]

Imperial Fists led The Reformation, and were the the deciding factor during the Siege of Terra during the Age of Apostasy. There was no Primarch around when Imperial Fists decided that High Lords needed executing. As far as I'm concerned (after having read War of the Beast) is that the High Lords rule the Imperium right up until Space Marines (specifically, the Imperial Fists, whose mission statement involves making sure Terra doesn't implode on itself) are no longer willing to put up with the High Lords' BS. War of the Beast is not subtle when they say that the only reason the High Lords exist, is because Space Marines let them. Because Space Marines actually have better things to do than worry about politicking - like actually defending the Imperium. If Space Marines have to turn around and punch a High Lord in the head - with or without a Primarch - they'll do it.

Really dont make much sense though, if they are able to do this. Space Marines are still just a single cog in the machinery. Their numbers are vanishingly small compared to the imperial army. And they dont have a navy that could handle a clash with the imperial navy. Or for that matter their own titans to deal with large scale engagements. If a writer insinuated that the High Lords were mainly in charge because they were allowed to, then in would say said writer is bad.

I think that'd be pretty fun. The Astartes would still fight for the Imperium against Xenos and Heretics, but would themselves be allowed to exaggerate their inherent differences so that the 15+ flavours of Space Marine are no longer so similar on the table. It'd also justify conflict with other Imperial forces to break up the huge and unwieldy "Imperium Faction" wedge which has caused so much strife for those players who cannot call upon 6 or 7 other Battle Brothers with which to build their lists.

I do agree on that a couple of fragments breaking off the imperium might improve things a lot. As it is then it feels like its current position is to dominant. Almost everything is centering around what goes on within it. As also seen by this conversation, where the only factions we have been talking about for moving the timeline forward is the imperium.

[Destro_Yersul]

That's got a lot to do with the GW mandate of 'no books with non-Imperial protagonists except maybe Chaos sometimes.'

[lord_khaine]

That's got a lot to do with the GW mandate of 'no books with non-Imperial protagonists except maybe Chaos sometimes.'

Please dont say thats an actual rule.. i dont need more reason to hate the morons at the GW lore department more than i already do..

[Renegade Paladin]

That's got a lot to do with the GW mandate of 'no books with non-Imperial protagonists except maybe Chaos sometimes.'

Apocalypse War Zone: Valedor? As far as I know it didn't involve the Imperium or Chaos at all. Granted, it's a single example out of many, many others that follow the Imperial/Chaos formula.

If you meant novels, though, I can see why that is. They're trying to sell novels, and if you can't sympathize with the protagonist at least a little bit, the novel won't sell. Imagine trying to tell a story from the Tyranid or Dark Eldar point of view, for instance. The first doesn't even have thoughts as we would define them and is on a relentless drive to eat everything; there isn't much potential for story there. The second... I don't know, maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that it's really hard to sympathize with a protagonist whose main goal will inevitably be seeking to kidnap and torture people for fun, as much as he or she possibly can, without a hint of remorse. Pre-retcon Necrons are fairly indistinguishable from Tyranids on the storytelling front, being just a flavor variation of the "mindlessly scour all life" theme.

Eldar, Tau, and to a lesser extent Orks (though they suffer much the same problems as the Dark Eldar, except having the redeeming benefit of being entertaining about it) could all have POV stories without much problem, but I get the sense that Black Library has decided that human POV stories are safer investments than alien ones.

[Drasius]

Simple fact of the matter is that everyone (Yes, even You!) owns some sort of marines in one form or another. Writing books about the good guys that everyone has the models of (because they're in every starter set) means that you've already got an "in" with your audience to a certain degree. Like it or not, the setting hinges on the Imperium and the role that the marines have in maintaining it. If you're not part of the Imperium, you exist only as the main protagonist (Chaos), a secondary threat that waxes and wanes in power ('Crons, 'Nids, Orks, DE) or a sometimes ally/oftentimes foe (Eldar, Tau). There's no ifs ands or buts about it, the setting exists to tell the story of the Imperium, it's right there in the front of every black library book you've ever bought in the last forever.

[thethird]

The second... I don't know, maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that it's really hard to sympathize with a protagonist whose main goal will inevitably be seeking to kidnap and torture people for fun, as much as he or she possibly can, without a hint of remorse. Pre-retcon Necrons are fairly indistinguishable from Tyranids on the storytelling front, being just a flavor variation of the "mindlessly scour all life" theme.

I love malus darkblade from fantasy. It could be done in SPACE!

[LeSwordfish]

I love malus darkblade from fantasy. It could be done in SPACE!

I'll comment that the Night Lords are probably not too far from the Dark Eldar, and those books are really good.

[lord_khaine]

Eldar, Tau, and to a lesser extent Orks (though they suffer much the same problems as the Dark Eldar, except having the redeeming benefit of being entertaining about it) could all have POV stories without much problem, but I get the sense that Black Library has decided that human POV stories are safer investments than alien ones.

Yeah.. its like GW has desided its safer to ignore a whole segment of their market who are hungering for stories about the factions they play and care about...
In other words, typical of GW

I can follow you in how it might be a bit hard to write stories about either Tyranids or deamons, but there really isnt any excuse for the lack of tales about Orks, Necrons, Tau, or Eldar.

Simple fact of the matter is that everyone (Yes, even You!) owns some sort of marines in one form or another. Writing books about the good guys that everyone has the models of (because they're in every starter set) means that you've already got an "in" with your audience to a certain degree. Like it or not, the setting hinges on the Imperium and the role that the marines have in maintaining it. If you're not part of the Imperium, you exist only as the main protagonist (Chaos), a secondary threat that waxes and wanes in power ('Crons, 'Nids, Orks, DE) or a sometimes ally/oftentimes foe (Eldar, Tau). There's no ifs ands or buts about it, the setting exists to tell the story of the Imperium, it's right there in the front of every black library book you've ever bought in the last forever.

No.. i dont have a single model in power armor. And i have newer owned one. The closest thing i have are Striking Scorpions, since they have a 3+ save and a chainsword.
But its not even like its correct to call the Imperium the good guys. To be honest in a lot of cases they are not even the lesser evil.

[DataNinja]

Imagine trying to tell a story from the [...] Dark Eldar point of view, for instance. [...] I don't know, maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that it's really hard to sympathize with a protagonist whose main goal will inevitably be seeking to kidnap and torture people for fun, as much as he or she possibly can, without a hint of remorse.

I don't know, I really did enjoy Andy Chambers' Path of the Renegade series.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't know, I really did enjoy Andy Chambers' Path of the Renegade series.

I knew there was a Deldar book! Now are there any actual books about Eldar? Cuz i cant think of any off hand.

[Grim Portent]

I knew there was a Deldar book! Now are there any actual books about Eldar? Cuz i cant think of any off hand.

The Path of the Seer, Path of the Warrior and Path of the Outcast books are about Craftworld Eldar.

[DataNinja]

The Path of the Seer, Path of the Warrior and Path of the Outcast books are about Craftworld Eldar.

I personally found them pretty good reads for the most part (though, after reading both, I think I enjoyed the Dark Eldar books a little bit more), but, then again, I am an Eldar player, so what do I know?

[Grim Portent]

Of the Path of the Eldar series I've only read Outcast, which I found enjoyable enough, but my brother recommends the other two.

Path of the Dark Eldar I am very fond of. It's not Night Lords or Word Bearers good, but it's still a very neat series that delves quite highly into the Dark Eldar, and made me desperately wish Malixian the Mad had tabletop rules.

[DataNinja]

Of the Path of the Eldar series I've only read Outcast, which I found enjoyable enough, but my brother recommends the other two.

The first two delve deeper into the workings of life on a Craftworld, as well as going into more detail on the Paths of the Warrior and Seer (duh ), whilst the third one is definitely the 'outlier' of the three, exploring more the parts of Eldar civilization away from either of the two main factions.

Either way, they do tie together rather nicely, and there is a sense of progression as you move through the trilogy, so each book does bring you closer to the actual end.

Additionally, there's also a short story... I can't remember the name, but I believe it's in one of the Space Marine anthologies, that takes the point of view of the Marines in path of the Outcast that cross paths with Aradryan's crew, as well as a second one (well, actually a first one) that gives more background on the Marines. It's off topic, but tangentially related.

[Drasius]

No.. i dont have a single model in power armor. And i have newer owned one. The closest thing i have are Striking Scorpions, since they have a 3+ save and a chainsword.
But its not even like its correct to call the Imperium the good guys. To be honest in a lot of cases they are not even the lesser evil.

Shush you, filthy xeno lovers don't count.

[DataNinja]

Shush you, filthy xeno lovers don't count.

...so, everyone has models in power armour, except that the armies who don't have power armour don't count?

(Except Daemons and non-marines Imperium.)

[Brookshw]

...so, everyone has models in power armour, except that the armies who don't have power armour don't count?

(Except Daemons and non-marines Imperium.)

I am deeply impressed by anyone who doesn't own a single model in power armor. I stopped playing for almost twenty years, got rid of my armies and yet still, somehow, managed to have models in power armor

And I didn't even play marines before that!

[lord_khaine]

I am deeply impressed by anyone who doesn't own a single model in power armor. I stopped playing for almost twenty years, got rid of my armies and yet still, somehow, managed to have models in power armor

I started with Eldars, and Marines newer said me anything due to how GW constantly tries to push them into our faces..

Shush you, filthy xeno lovers don't count.

So.. your saying i should take my filthy, xeno currency somewhere else..?
Or that GW is suffering from the delusion that my filthy cash is going to be spend on Ultrasmurf biografies instead of more pointy helms, if they dont write any books about fx Phoenix lords doing radical stuff, like beating primarchs and monsters?

[LeSwordfish]

Didnt at least one Pheonix Lord book come out last year? The majority of books are imperial-centric sure but certainly not ALL of them

[lord_khaine]

Really? If GW actually wrote an entire book centering around one of the Phoenix Lords. Then ill take back at least ½ of what i said about them.

[LeSwordfish]

It seems to only be one, but...

[lord_khaine]

Ah crud, they actually really wrote an entire book about Asurmen?
Well, fair is fair. Cant expect much more than that, being a much smaller demographic than the Imperial players.

Or at least used to, dont know how it is now

[Cheesegear]

It seems to only be one, but...

I'll also tell you that it's actually pretty good. Asurmen is the only Phoenix Lord I like, and it helps that his book doesn't suck.