Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XII - DIS FINGY GOT NO SQUIGZ IN IT!

[DemonicAngel]

10 shots a round, there's only 1 method of fire for a heavy bolter.

The first one is either a - (not applicable) or S which is single shot, the next one is semi auto, usually a 2 or a 3, the last one is full auto.

The range is a max accurate range IIRC. bonus to hit at half listed range, penalties over the listed range.



I'm not a military guy, nor a gun nut, but I'd wager 200 rounds really isn't that much for a squad support weapon like a heavy bolter is meant to be. Also, for the life of me, I can't seem to google up a weight per projectile of IRL gyro's, but it is interesting to note that ammo for them is eye-wateringly expensive compared to normal guns, running in the $35-100 per rocket (not clip) range.

Edit: Damn ninjas posting stuff up while I was reading stuff.

Speaking just from experience, the average 5.56 drum has 100-150 bullets (that means that if you want it to be mobile, that's what you're going to be using.). Our gunners would carry two of those, and another spare chain of 75 bullets iirc. If you're entrenched you can use a bullet box which can carry around about 500 bullets. i'm pretty sure that SM backpacks are somekind of boxes that feed the gun. 8kinda like the mech suits in the matrix).

Just some army knowledge. It probably changes from different forces.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not a military guy, nor a gun nut, but I'd wager 200 rounds really isn't that much for a squad support weapon like a heavy bolter is meant to be.

Which then begs the question; Is a Heavy Bolter even a support weapon? Because it certainly doesn't look like one (given its specs), and if it is a support weapon, why are they so bad and why does nobody ever take them? Infernus Heavy Bolters at least have suspensor webs, an underslung Heavy Flamer, and the wielder can move forwards and shoot at the time same - no bracing, because of the mentioned suspensors. But, that's Deathwatch, and kind of almost good.

Trying to do any sort of quantitative analysis on 40K guns I think is a bit silly, unless you're just doing it for the sake of picking holes.

See above.
There are any number of D&D threads dedicated to killing catgirls.

Speaking just from experience, the average 5.56 drum has 100-150 bullets (that means that if you want it to be mobile, that's what you're going to be using.). Our gunners would carry two of those, and another spare chain of 75 bullets iirc.

That's what the Imperial Guard do with their Heavy Bolters. In the Guard, Heavy Bolters are support weapons because the standard gun of an Infantryman - the Lasgun - isn't good. One of the major elements of Space Marines, is that they're not for prolonged engagements, they're scalpels, not hammers (the tabletop is bad and should feel bad). If a Space Marine needs more than 250 shots (at ~100 rounds per minute), the Strike has gone on too long.
(A 'Gladius Strike Force' just doesn't feel like a QRF.)

[Drasius]

Which then begs the question; Is a Heavy Bolter even a support weapon? Because it certainly doesn't look like one (given its specs), and if it is a support weapon, why are they so bad and why does nobody ever take them? Infernus Heavy Bolters at least have suspensor webs, an underslung Heavy Flamer, and the wielder can move forwards and shoot at the time same - no bracing, because of the mentioned suspensors. But, that's Deathwatch, and kind of almost good.

...

That's what the Imperial Guard do with their Heavy Bolters. In the Guard, Heavy Bolters are support weapons because the standard gun of an Infantryman - the Lasgun - isn't good. One of the major elements of Space Marines, is that they're not for prolonged engagements, they're scalpels, not hammers (the tabletop is bad and should feel bad). If a Space Marine needs more than 250 shots (at ~100 rounds per minute), the Strike has gone on too long.
(A 'Gladius Strike Force' just doesn't feel like a QRF.)

I think you kinda answered your own question there Cheese. Heavy bolters are a support weapon that are suitable for a slow advance force that takes and holds, planting itself in cover with a heavy weapon for support (read: Imperial Guard). Marines aren't that sort of force, and don't need that sort of weapon, hence why nobody takes them (also, they're bad because despite being AP4, they don't ignore cover so they might as well be AP-). The answer as to why nobody takes them in the guard is that autocannons are better for the same points and a guard army has no problems killing infantry like a heavy bolter is meant to do and the autocannon can do the same anti infantry job as the heavy bolter in a pinch anyway.

[Brother Oni]

I'm not a military guy, nor a gun nut, but I'd wager 200 rounds really isn't that much for a squad support weapon like a heavy bolter is meant to be. Also, for the life of me, I can't seem to google up a weight per projectile of IRL gyro's, but it is interesting to note that ammo for them is eye-wateringly expensive compared to normal guns, running in the $35-100 per rocket (not clip) range.

From the numbers I've found, the weight of a single Mk II 12mm gyrojet round is ~37g (22 oz of a full loaded 6 round gyrojet pistol versus 400g unloaded). For reference, the weight of a .500 S&W round (12.7mm) is 19-32g depending on how much propellant you put into the cartridge.

The price for them is stupidly expensive as they weren't mass produced and are basically a failed experiment. They're no longer manufactured and any rounds currently existing are curios for collectors, driving the price up.

Worrying about the rate of fire of a bolter while being completely au fait with grav guns and plasma guns seems weird to me.

It's only intended as a bit of fun speculating on real world analogies. Grav and plasma guns don't have a real world counterpart, so I'm more than happy to accept their performance at face values.

Bolters are more recognisable (throwing bits of metal really quickly out of a barrel with a chemical reaction), so we have analogues we can draw comparisons on. The fire rate question is only related to the ready ammunition a heavy bolter has and its perceived role as fire support - suppressing the enemy so that the rest of the squad can flank and kill them.

I think you kinda answered your own question there Cheese. Heavy bolters are a support weapon that are suitable for a slow advance force that takes and holds, planting itself in cover with a heavy weapon for support (read: Imperial Guard). Marines aren't that sort of force, and don't need that sort of weapon, hence why nobody takes them (also, they're bad because despite being AP4, they don't ignore cover so they might as well be AP-). The answer as to why nobody takes them in the guard is that autocannons are better for the same points and a guard army has no problems killing infantry like a heavy bolter is meant to do and the autocannon can do the same anti infantry job as the heavy bolter in a pinch anyway.

I might be reading too much of a real world role into it, but as mentioned above, the fire support role is to pin the enemy in place - killing them is just an added bonus. Has there been any mention of IG/SM doctrine with regard to small unit tactics in any of the books?

[Cheesegear]

The fire rate question is only related to the ready ammunition a heavy bolter has and its perceived role as fire support - suppressing the enemy so that the rest of the squad can flank and kill them.

Except a Heavy Bolter doesn't do that. A Heavy Bolter, for lack of a better phrase, is simply a bigger Boltgun. Remembering that Boltguns are not machine guns. The Heavy Bolter's role is to move forwards with the rest of the squad. If a Heavy Bolter is used as fire support, then it's part of a Devastator unit, and then there's four of them, if not more. Single Heavy Boltguns in a Tactical Squad basically do nothing at all, and only serve to slow the squad down.

I might be reading too much of a real world role into it, but as mentioned above, the fire support role is to pin the enemy in place - killing them is just an added bonus. Has there been any mention of IG/SM doctrine with regard to small unit tactics in any of the books?

Yes. Guard lay down covering fire with Lasguns, and Space Marines do a full frontal assault with Knives and Pistols because Tau can't fight for poop. Happens in War Zone Damocles. In Shield of Baal, it has very little to do with Guardsmen providing actual firepower, and (almost) everything to do with the Guardsmen standing as meat shields for the Space Marines.

[bluntpencil]

From the numbers I've found, the weight of a single Mk II 12mm gyrojet round is ~37g (22 oz of a full loaded 6 round gyrojet pistol versus 400g unloaded). For reference, the weight of a .500 S&W round (12.7mm) is 19-32g depending on how much propellant you put into the cartridge.

The price for them is stupidly expensive as they weren't mass produced and are basically a failed experiment. They're no longer manufactured and any rounds currently existing are curios for collectors, driving the price up.



It's only intended as a bit of fun speculating on real world analogies. Grav and plasma guns don't have a real world counterpart, so I'm more than happy to accept their performance at face values.

Bolters are more recognisable (throwing bits of metal really quickly out of a barrel with a chemical reaction), so we have analogues we can draw comparisons on. The fire rate question is only related to the ready ammunition a heavy bolter has and its perceived role as fire support - suppressing the enemy so that the rest of the squad can flank and kill them.



I might be reading too much of a real world role into it, but as mentioned above, the fire support role is to pin the enemy in place - killing them is just an added bonus. Has there been any mention of IG/SM doctrine with regard to small unit tactics in any of the books?

I believe the Deathwatch and Only War RPGs are good for this. Suppressive Fire is badass in Only War.

[Ricky S]

Pintle mounted stubbers are str 4 which is basically a m2 browning firing a .50cal round. Realistically that is already way above a squad support weapon. A heavy bolter could only ever be an emplaced or mounted weapon for guard. The closest guard actually have to a squad support weapon is the militarum tempestus hot shot volley gun.
I think in table top terms our modern firearms would onky be str 2. Flakk armour is also ridiculously strong. It can stop stubber rounds and multi laser rounds.

[The Glyphstone]

Autoguns are literally the 40K version of modern firearms - chemical-powered slugthrowers. They are S3, identical to lasguns, and in the much more nuanced RPGs, they're also near-identical to lasguns, so that is an effective benchmark to match 'RL' weapons against. The problem is when you try to use wargame stats, since everything from thrown rocks to planetbuster cannons have to be squeezed into a 1-10 range.

[Ricky S]

Autoguns are literally the 40K version of modern firearms - chemical-powered slugthrowers. They are S3, identical to lasguns, and in the much more nuanced RPGs, they're also near-identical to lasguns, so that is an effective benchmark to match 'RL' weapons against. The problem is when you try to use wargame stats, since everything from thrown rocks to planetbuster cannons have to be squeezed into a 1-10 range.

Yea the 1 to 10 range really isnt enough to differentiate the power of all the different rounds. I feel like autoguns are more powerful than modern day equivalents though. Lasguns which are str 3 can punch fist sized holes in concrete. A modern 7.62 mm round will most likely punch through it but just leave a hole not much bigger than itself.

My theory is that its 40k in the future, the proppellants they use for bullets will be more advanced too.

[bluntpencil]

Yea the 1 to 10 range really isnt enough to differentiate the power of all the different rounds. I feel like autoguns are more powerful than modern day equivalents though. Lasguns which are str 3 can punch fist sized holes in concrete. A modern 7.62 mm round will most likely punch through it but just leave a hole not much bigger than itself.

My theory is that its 40k in the future, the proppellants they use for bullets will be more advanced too.

An autogun is very similar to a modern weapon.

If you look at the RPGs, you can compare an autogun to a bow and arrow or crossbow. They're better, but not worlds away.

They also do similar injuries in the books, compared to modern guns in action movies (comparing pulpy novels to real life would be silly).

[The Glyphstone]

And the books are hardly even consistent amongst themselves as to the power of a lasgun, for that matter. Sometimes they punch holes in concrete, other times they can inflict flesh wounds to people they hit.

[Destro_Yersul]

And sometimes they cause perfect little round holes, like an actual laser would.

[deuterio12]

That's what the Imperial Guard do with their Heavy Bolters. In the Guard, Heavy Bolters are support weapons because the standard gun of an Infantryman - the Lasgun - isn't good. One of the major elements of Space Marines, is that they're not for prolonged engagements, they're scalpels, not hammers (the tabletop is bad and should feel bad). If a Space Marine needs more than 250 shots (at ~100 rounds per minute), the Strike has gone on too long.

Then why does the fluff have:
-SM chapters going into decades/centuries long crusades by themselves.
-Rebellious planets/systems being crushed by pure-SM forces (ex Badab war).
-Chapters like the Blood Tearers and Grey Knights that go out of their way to inflict collateral damage to their own allies.
-The emprah himself employed the SM as a hammer to brutally conquer planets and exterminate whatever displeased him more than any kind of precision work.
-Besides the above, the Imperium has both the Inquisition and Assassins for actual scalpel work. If all that's needed is to root out a cult or kill an enemy leader, the SM aren't called, the dudes not dressed in bright power armor and that actually fit in tight passages and can climb stairs are summoned for the job instead.

Really terminators even literally wield hammers. They come packing the toughest personal armor the imperium can manufacture because they're expected to be under a lot of enemy fire. What's the point of bringing shields and stuff unless you're expecting the enemy to unload a lot of firepower on you?

[Sayt]

Point of order, the Flesh Tearers don't go out of their way to inflict collateral damage, they have ano extremely unfortunate inability to stop killing when they run out of enemies, which led them to go out of their way to not fight alongside allies where possible.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Really terminators even literally wield hammers.

They come packing the toughest personal armor the imperium can manufacture because they're expected to be under a lot of enemy fire. What's the point of bringing shields and stuff unless you're expecting the enemy to unload a lot of firepower on you?

A lot of firepower... that can fit indoors. Which is what the scalpel means.

[Wraith]

Then why does the fluff have:
-SM chapters going into decades/centuries long crusades by themselves.
-Rebellious planets/systems being crushed by pure-SM forces (ex Badab war).
-Chapters like the Blood Tearers and Grey Knights that go out of their way to inflict collateral damage to their own allies.
-The emprah himself employed the SM as a hammer to brutally conquer planets and exterminate whatever displeased him more than any kind of precision work.
-Besides the above, the Imperium has both the Inquisition and Assassins for actual scalpel work. If all that's needed is to root out a cult or kill an enemy leader, the SM aren't called, the dudes not dressed in bright power armor and that actually fit in tight passages and can climb stairs are summoned for the job instead.

You're thinking on too small of a scale. The Imperium is a million worlds, a billion battlefiends, a trillion deaths every single day.

Relatively speaking, compared to the alternative of hundreds of years worth of threshing millions of humans in a meat grinder, using a Space Marine Chapter to conquer one world in a handful of days *IS* the scalpel work. The Assassins, to extend the metaphor, are the pin-prick.

The exact methods of the Astartes, while brutal and inefficient when you compare individual combatants to one another, are none-the-less exemplary.

[Drasius]

Even if the war lasts years, the astartes fight in lightning raids and surgical strikes instead of sitting in a trench for 8 weeks while their artillery (notice how they don't really have any other than the relatively short ranged anti infantry whirlwind and thunderfire) shells the crap out of an enemy?

Besides, even when the astartes do fight that kind of war, you end up with death guard and Iron Warriors, and the imperium doesn't want, nor can afford, that sort of thing these days.

[Cheesegear]

SM chapters going into decades/centuries long crusades by themselves.

Self-imposed exile is not normal.

Rebellious planets/systems being crushed by pure-SM forces (ex Badab war).

Badab War is a horrible example. It takes Space Marines to kill Space Marines. What are Guard going to do? Get killed and then die.

Chapters like the Blood Tearers and Grey Knights that go out of their way to inflict collateral damage to their own allies.

There's only one response I can give.
Flesh Tearers do it 100% by accident.
Grey Knights do it because No Witnesses.

The emprah himself employed the SM as a hammer to brutally conquer planets and exterminate whatever displeased him more than any kind of precision work.

That's because the Legions were in the tens of thousands! The Emperor then died, Gulliman wrote a Codex, and the nature of Space Marines changed forever. The Imperium can't afford it, and even if they could, the High Lords don't want to give Marines that kind of power, and Guilliman's Codex ensures that they can't.

What's the point of bringing shields and stuff unless you're expecting the enemy to unload a lot of firepower on you?

The amount shots fired at you, is not the same as how long you get shot for. A Hammernator can take two Plasma shots to the face and keep on trucking, if the Terminator can close the distance in those ten seconds, the guy holding the Plasma Gun is dead. Quick and short. The protection on the Hammernator is only so he can survive to end the engagement.

"What's the plan, Sarge?"
We've got Hammers and Storm Shields. If we can get into combat, this fight will last five seconds. All's you have to do is get there.
"Full frontal Charge, and try not to die? Crush the enemies of the Imperium without mercy?"
If all you have is a Hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[deuterio12]

A hammer that crushes things good and fast is a good hammer, not a good scalpel.

Self-imposed exile is not normal.

It seems to be the most common "punishment" for chapters that aren't outright declared traitors. It's also a stupidly common plot device in the stories "and suddenly chapter X who had been on a crusade showed up".

Badab War is a horrible example. It takes Space Marines to kill Space Marines. What are Guard going to do? Get killed and then die.

Strap melta bombs to conspricts. Artillery everything that looks suspicious. Bring more bodies than they have bolter ammo. Plasma/melta anything left.

There was also the Macharian Heresy.
70 years.
100 SM chapters.
1000 planets.
No Items, Final Destination Only enemies were renegade guard. No super aliens, no daemons, just lots of humies with flashlights.

That means in average each SM chapter captured one world every 7 years.

That's not too bad I guess (Macharius did it in 1/10 the time with not a single suit of power/terminator armor), but it's pretty far from "days /weeks lighting fast conquest". It's much closer to slow grinding war.

There's only one response I can give.
Flesh Tearers do it 100% by accident.
Grey Knights do it because No Witnesses.

See, if your "scalpel" only leaves behind a gory mess, it may just be a hammer.

That's because the Legions were in the tens of thousands! The Emperor then died, Gulliman wrote a Codex, and the nature of Space Marines changed forever. The Imperium can't afford it, and even if they could, the High Lords don't want to give Marines that kind of power, and Guilliman's Codex ensures that they can't.

Spoiler: Legion sizes

Show

Ultramarines - 250,000
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000
Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000
World Eaters - 150,000
Word Bearers - 100,000 to 150,000
Blood Angels - 120,000
Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000
Iron Hands - 113,000
Emperor's Children - 110,000
Imperial Fists - 100,000
Death Guard - 95,000
Alpha Legion - Conflicting accounts ranging from 90,000 to 180,000
Salamanders - 89,000
Raven Guard - 80,000
Thousand Sons - 10,000

That goes for a max of 1 787 000 SM in 30K.

Come 40K there's 1000 000 SM. That's about half, but still in the same scale. If they could be used to conquer planets before, they still can.

And again, the High Lords didn't seem to have any trouble dispatching 100 chapters (10% of the total SM force )to re-conquer 1000 planets (1/1000 the Imperium's size).

The amount shots fired at you, is not the same as how long you get shot for. A Hammernator can take two Plasma shots to the face and keep on trucking, if the Terminator can close the distance in those ten seconds, the guy holding the Plasma Gun is dead. Quick and short. The protection on the Hammernator is only so he can survive to end the engagement.

"What's the plan, Sarge?"
We've got Hammers and Storm Shields. If we can get into combat, this fight will last five seconds. All's you have to do is get there.
"Full frontal Charge, and try not to die? Crush the enemies of the Imperium without mercy?"
If all you have is a Hammer, everything looks like a nail.

"Sarge, the enemy is falling back instead of standing in place waiting for us to reach them with our massive cubersome slow armor!"
"FFFFUUUUUU-"

An Hammernator's loadout is literally the worst possible choice for a scalpel military unit. They're however pretty much the definition of an hammer unit, pun intended.

[Cheesegear]

That's not too bad I guess (Macharius did it in 1/10 the time with not a single suit of power/terminator armor)

Macharius had at least five (that we know of) Chapters backing him up. Although the level of support varies, because the Macharius Crusade was written in a time when writers weren't stupid and used Guard correctly. In The Macharian Crusade, Macharius deals directly with Battle Leader Logan Grimnar, and the protagonists are saved by Death Spectres, etc. Read The Macharian Crusade trilogy. It's good.

It's much closer to slow grinding war.

Which is exactly what Space Marines don't want.

See, if your "scalpel" only leaves behind a gory mess, it may just be a hammer.

You're mixing your metaphors.
Space Marines are supposed to Drop Pod in, explode a building, assassinate a dude, end a siege quickly and efficiently. Then get off the planet. Or, go to another point on the planet. Protracted battles are bad for Space Marines. They hate it. 5 Terminators, with a Cruiser in orbit, and liberal use of Teleports, can pacify a planet, simply by killing off all the right people.

The Guard are called 'The Hammer of the Emperor', because they're huge, slow, inexorable and basically unstoppable. They can throw men into the meat grinder. That's what the 'Hammer' is.
The 'Scalpel', is a quick assassination plot that ends the conflict immediately - regardless of how bloody. They cut out the root of the problem, and ignore the rest. 'Mopping up' is what the Guard are for.
"A knife in the night, is more effective than a hundred swords at dawn." Or something. I forget the quote. Marines operate in Strike Forces and Kill Teams.

Come 40K there's 1000 000 SM. That's about half, but still in the same scale. If they could be used to conquer planets before, they still can.

No they can't, because that many Marines in the same place means some other Sector of space goes undefended. This is the major problem I have with Raven Guard going to the Damocles Gulf. You can't just send any Marines anywhere. That's not how it works. Bad writers are bad.

And again, the High Lords didn't seem to have any trouble dispatching 100 chapters to re-conquer 70 planets.

Yeah. And then they never did it before or since. Almost like it's not a normal thing and pretty extraordinary. Because every Chapter in the setting hates putting all their Marines in the same place, because it only ever ends badly. If a Chapter is throwing more than 2 Companies of Marines at a problem, it means their Homeworld is being attacked. Like I said, Strike Forces and Kill Teams. If a Chapter has sent in more than 50 dudes, without Guard backup...

Basically, if 100 Chapters are going to war, it means that **** has hit the fan and there's no other option. Scalpels aren't going to work this time. The problem with The Macharian Heresy, is that there isn't a novel about it, so we don't have first person accounts. Space Marines would hate that. Just like The Great Crusade itself, it's probably not 1 planet per seven years. More like the Marines Pacify a planet, and move on to the next one. Couple of years later, the planet rebels again, and the Crusade halts and has to backtrack because no-one thinks to do what Curze did.

"Sarge, the enemy is falling back instead of standing in place waiting for us to reach them with our massive cubersome slow armor!"
"FFFFUUUUUU-"

Why are you walking? Don't you just teleport in their face, giving them about five seconds of reaction time before you bash their heads in, and then teleport out?

An Hammernator's loadout is literally the worst possible choice for a scalpel military unit.

It's actually the best. It ends the problem immediately with little manpower investment, quickly and brutally. Teleport in. Teleport out. Go home.

You're basically ennumerating all the reasons why the Space Marines Battles books suck so much. Because in order to push more novels, they have to write Bolter-porn, which basically means doing exactly what Marines aren't supposed to do.

[LansXero]

Off topic, but the talk about hammernators reminded me of the bit in the night lords trilogy with the assault... terminator? centurion?. If the enemy is falling back away from you, thats great because you then get to the generatorium / ship bridge and thats a victory. And if they arent, they are dying, so thats pretty good too.

[Grim Portent]

I think a sword or spear is a better metaphor for marines than scalpel is. Scalpel implies more precision than they tend to use and better suits the Assassins.

Space marines don't just nip in and kill a renegade commander, they rush forward in the fastest armoured vehicles in the Imperium and carve a bloody swathe up to the enemy commanders front door and blow his head off while their brothers are deep striking into his airfields and armouries to destroy his war machines. They're more of a lance or a broad sweeping strike than anything.

[LCP]

The problem with The Macharian Heresy, is that there isn't a novel about it, so we don't have first person accounts.

You're basically ennumerating all the reasons why the Space Marines Battles books suck so much. Because in order to push more novels, they have to write Bolter-porn, which basically means doing exactly what Marines aren't supposed to do.

Hang on, which is it? BL gives better detail than rulebooks, or BL produces bolter-porn that doesn't count?

Personally I really dislike the "marines as special forces" idea that tries to imply they are used as some kind of intelligent precision-strike strategy. They're not integrated into the rest of the Imperium's armed forces, or trained/equipped for that role - special forces don't wear huge silhouette-enhancing shoulderpads and paint themselves in primary colours!

To me, space marines take a much clearer inspiration from medieval knightly orders than from any modern military organisation (which fits pretty cleanly with the central theme of 40K being - according to Jervis Johnson - the Middle Ages in space). But at the same time, their lore is designed as an exercise in Your Dudes. You can tailor a space marine chapter to fight according to pretty much any tactical doctrine and it tends to fit with the lore at least as well as any of the official chapters. Which is to say, fine if you don't think about it too hard.

[LeSwordfish]

Hang on, which is it? BL gives better detail than rulebooks, or BL produces bolter-porn that doesn't count?

Not that I disagree with the rest of your points, but I think in this case it's the "Space Marine Battles" books that are being disparaged, not BL in general. And frankly, if you buy a book called "Space Marine Battles: X" you deserve whatever you get.

[LCP]

As opposed to the rest of BL's output being high literature?

I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing, but I think if you want to know how space marines fight battles then a book series called "Space Marine Battles" sounds like a fairly decent source. The quality of the writing is a separate question.

[Wraith]

I think there's a clear division between how Space Marines ought to fight - according to what we know of their equipment, physical abilities and numbers - and how the GW writers portray them as fighting due to not being experts in militaristic combat styles and strategy. It's obvious that the latter is "wrong", but.... who cares, if it's fun?

[LCP]

^ I completely agree (and I don't think the answer to either of those is "special ops in power armour" - but that's my subjective opinion and I don't think it's grounds to call any other take right or wrong). I'd also point out that I don't think there's a great deal more military expertise in this thread than there is in GWHQ - we're all amateurs.

One other point is how marines should fight doesn't have to dictate how they do fight in order to make sense. Going back to knightly orders, the way medieval knights fought was not 100% optimised to produce the best results on the battlefield - it was informed by lots of other concepts (chivalry, faith, family honour etc.) that sometimes led them into pretty daft situations. To me that kind of daftness is what gives 40K its flavour; treating space marines like you have to pretend everything they do is eminently sensible kinda ruins the appeal.

[Cheesegear]

I think a sword or spear is a better metaphor for marines...

Well, that is what Horus said.

[Ricky S]

One other point is how marines should fight doesn't have to dictate how they do fight in order to make sense. Going back to knightly orders, the way medieval knights fought was not 100% optimised to produce the best results on the battlefield - it was informed by lots of other concepts (chivalry, faith, family honour etc.) that sometimes led them into pretty daft situations. To me that kind of daftness is what gives 40K its flavour; treating space marines like you have to pretend everything they do is eminently sensible kinda ruins the appeal.

That does make sense for all the crazy last stands and valiant charges for no reason other than the honour of the chapter. I think it depends on the chapter though. Some chapters are a lot more valiant than others and some go out of their way to protect human life regardless of their own casualties. Some chapters are just downright insane like the flesh tearers.

[houlio]

Well, that is what Horus said.

I was going to chime in to say that Horus was all about the quick, brutal, surgical strike with his legion. He probably had something going there, being Warmaster and all.