Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

[Morphic tide]

No, Cancer Mage gets all cosmetic effects. In other words only those effects which cause no substantial changes.

And in the actual game rules, this includes turning into formless jelly. Turning into formless jelly itself has no mechanical effect, weirdly enough. And the Warp Touch list is quite clearly listing what happens, followed by the mechanical effects caused by that. Cancer Mage is explicitly immune to the detrimental mechanical effects and explicitly not immune to the effects that have no mechanical effect/visible causes of the detrimental mechanical effects. Which includes turning into formless jelly, because Death is a separate effect from turning into formless jelly.

"No substantial changes" specifically means "no mechanical effect" here. Blackened skin, sores and hair falling out all come from serious problems IRL and don't happen without those problems, but Cancer Mage is subject to them without having any harm come to them quite explicitly. Any change that doesn't inherently have mechanical effects applies to the Cancer Mage, and it's entirely valid to have the visible things that do have explicit mechanical effects apply to them without the mechanical effects.

Again, turning into formless jelly is clearly the visual/cosmetic effect, while death is the detrimental mechanical effect. Cancer Mage is explicitly vulnerable to the former category and immune to the latter category. Do remember that this thread is about rules interactions that make no sense or break the game, so if the rules as written lead to utter nonsense, that's grounds for accepting that it belongs on this thread.

[zergling.exe]

I think at this point the cancer mage discussion should get its own thread to get more opinions on the matter.

[Jormengand]

So, in the flying rules, it says that "If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement," which taken literally means that you only have to land if your minimum forward speed changes. Taken less literally, it means that you only need to land if your speed is less than half your speed. Taken even less literally, you only need to land if you move less than half your speed, but not if you don't move at all. Taken even less literally still, we're not entirely sure how much time you need to move half your speed in, or even that it's half of your speed and not half of anything else. However you try to read it (except "By understanding how context and implication work", but we don't do that here), it's a mess.

EDIT: Throwing a grappling hook, even as a weapon with no rope attached, requires a use rope check.

[The Viscount]

Doesn't the phrasing mean that if you exceed your minimum speed, you also need to land?

[Jormengand]

Doesn't the phrasing mean that if you exceed your minimum speed, you also need to land?

Yes, that too.

[ShurikVch]

The column is labeled "Description/Effect" not "Effect 1/Effect 2". The former is the cause, the later is the effect. Those entries with no semicolon are only descriptive and contain merely cosmetic effects.

I see your reason, but the problem is: such reading - no matter how RAW legal or not - disconnects fluff and crunch
"11–15" result doesn't make one arm "useless" - it just cause d6 Str/Dex/Con drain; Stone Giant, if hit with it twice, wouldn't lose ability to use his greatclub - "arm becomes useless" is just a fluff, and he have enough ability scores to stay active after the abilities drain
On the other hand, Marilith, if hit with "11–15" 4 times in row (unlikely, but still possible), may be paralysed (because of Dex drain) - despite having two more perfectly good arms, and tail (which, by the fluff, shouldn't be even affected at all)
And if Marilith will be hit with "16–20" result, she will suffer usual d6 Str/Dex/Con drain - despite don't having any legs to "becomes useless"
And at "39–40" result, her speed still will be halved - despite the fact she already have a snake tail for legs
And if somebody is immune to ability drain without being also immune to diseases (or Fort saves in general), then he will be able to walk and act even with all of his arms and legs "useless"

[Dagroth]

I see your reason, but the problem is: such reading - no matter how RAW legal or not - disconnects fluff and crunch
"11–15" result doesn't make one arm "useless" - it just cause d6 Str/Dex/Con drain; Stone Giant, if hit with it twice, wouldn't lose ability to use his greatclub - "arm becomes useless" is just a fluff, and he have enough ability scores to stay active after the abilities drain
On the other hand, Marilith, if hit with "11–15" 4 times in row (unlikely, but still possible), may be paralysed (because of Dex drain) - despite having two more perfectly good arms, and tail (which, by the fluff, shouldn't be even affected at all)
And if Marilith will be hit with "16–20" result, she will suffer usual d6 Str/Dex/Con drain - despite don't having any legs to "becomes useless"
And at "39–40" result, her speed still will be halved - despite the fact she already have a snake tail for legs
And if somebody is immune to ability drain without being also immune to diseases (or Fort saves in general), then he will be able to walk and act even with all of his arms and legs "useless"

I'm sorry, but "arm becomes useless" is not "just a fluff". It means that you can't dual wield and can't wield a two-handed weapon.

"arm becomes useless" twice means that you can't use weapons that require hands... assuming you don't have more than two arms.

[Morphic tide]

I'm sorry, but "arm becomes useless" is not "just a fluff". It means that you can't dual wield and can't wield a two-handed weapon.

"arm becomes useless" twice means that you can't use weapons that require hands... assuming you don't have more than two arms.

It is just fluff, because it's resultant effect has little to do with losing use of an arm and affects things that don't have any arms. Warp Touch is clearly structured as cause;effect, with the cause being the fluff behind the effect. "Useless arm" is not an actual mechanical thing. Dismemberment is not a thing in the mechanics. Mechanically, there is not a single thing that removes limb use that isn't a Transmutation effect, and that typically happens by polymorphing things into other things lacking limbs.

[bekeleven]

It is just fluff, because it's resultant effect has little to do with losing use of an arm and affects things that don't have any arms. Warp Touch is clearly structured as cause;effect, with the cause being the fluff behind the effect. "Useless arm" is not an actual mechanical thing. Dismemberment is not a thing in the mechanics. Mechanically, there is not a single thing that removes limb use that isn't a Transmutation effect, and that typically happens by polymorphing things into other things lacking limbs.

You're sort of correct, in that things that detach limbs often don't explain the rules behind them because they're considered so blisteringly obvious (e.g. Grim Revenge, Spider Hand, Black Talon, Serpent of the Theggeron, etc).

Claws of Darkness, Fire Wings, Flame Whips, Wither Limb and more, however, disagree.

Lahm's Finger Darts is in the middle, stating that hands "become useless" without expanding.

[The Viscount]

The War Domain gives Martial Weapon Proficiency (if necessary) for the deity's favored weapon. However, some deities with the War Domain, like Tem-Et-Nu, have exotic weapons as their favored weapon.

[Debatra]

I keep forgetting this thread's stance on whether "this rule does nothing" is a dysfunction.

[Flickerdart]

I keep forgetting this thread's stance on whether "this rule does nothing" is a dysfunction.

If the rule is intended to do something, and doesn't do that something, it's a dysfunction.

[Jormengand]

The War Domain gives Martial Weapon Proficiency (if necessary) for the deity's favored weapon. However, some deities with the War Domain, like Tem-Et-Nu, have exotic weapons as their favored weapon.

So, MWP isn't necessary for that weapon, so you don't get it, and that's possibly intended behaviour?

[The Viscount]

So, MWP isn't necessary for that weapon, so you don't get it, and that's possibly intended behaviour?

I can't prove intent, but I can say that all of the deities with the War Domain in the PHB have simple or martial favored weapons. It seems more likely to me that the writers for later deities forgot this tidbit than them intentionally making a favored weapon such that certain clerics get no bonus from the War Domain.

EDIT: Glorious Master of the Elements has a statblock in rather strong disagreement with the spell text. It says that it has a target of one creature with a duration of 5 rounds, but the spell says that you can attack any target within 60 feet every round as a standard.

[Socksy]

The Entropomancer's capstone ability lets it deal 5d6 damage to itself once a round, as long as they maintain concentration on a Sphere of Annihilation.

Control Sphere (Su): The entropomancer has the ability to control a sphere of annihilation as if he were using a talisman of the sphere.

This small adamantine loop and handle are useless to those unable to cast arcane spells. Characters who cannot cast arcane spells take 5d6 points of damage merely from picking up and holding a talisman of this sort.

[georgie_leech]

The Entropomancer's capstone ability lets it deal 5d6 damage to itself once a round, as long as they maintain concentration on a Sphere of Annihilation.

Strictly speaking, it isn't the act of using a talisman that does the damage, but holding it. Entropomancers don't have to hold anything.

[tyckspoon]

EDIT: Glorious Master of the Elements has a statblock in rather strong disagreement with the spell text. It says that it has a target of one creature with a duration of 5 rounds, but the spell says that you can attack any target within 60 feet every round as a standard.

It's a bit rough, but I think that can reasonably be read as allowing you to cast the spell on any target within 60 feet. That target then gains the benefit of the spell for its duration, which is making attacks against other creatures.

Probably not the intended function of the spell (the description sounds like they thought they were writing a Personal spell) but it works perfectly well within the rules. There are a large number of buffs with similar formatting.

[Socksy]

Strictly speaking, it isn't the act of using a talisman that does the damage, but holding it. Entropomancers don't have to hold anything.

That makes things a little bit easier on the Entropomancer, then, since it's only "entirely useless" rather than "actively harmful"

[ShurikVch]

Draconomicon have Red Dragons by Size chart, which lists statistics for Small size
Except the facts: Red Wyrmling is a Medium-sized creature, and Red Dragon's egg is a Medium-sized object

[Malimar]

Draconomicon have Red Dragons by Size chart, which lists statistics for Small size
Except the facts: Red Wyrmling is a Medium-sized creature, and Red Dragon's egg is a Medium-sized object

Clearly this refers to red dragonwrought kobolds. Definitive proof that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons.

[Socksy]

Clearly this refers to red dragonwrought kobolds. Definitive proof that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons.

No, it's in case you want to stack templates on your baby dragon to make it smaller and cuter, much like the horrifying breeding of small dogs.

[PallentisLunam]

Well not actually knowing the table in question it would be possible to Permanency a Reduce Person on a Wyrmling Red

[Socksy]

Well not actually knowing the table in question it would be possible to Permanency a Reduce Person on a Wyrmling Red

Only humanoids are eligible for that spell, no?
I think there's a psionic version that would work though.
It's after 2am so if I'm spouting nonsense, ignore me.

[PallentisLunam]

Only humanoids are eligible for that spell, no?
I think there's a psionic version that would work though.
It's after 2am so if I'm spouting nonsense, ignore me.

Polymorph > Permanent Reduce > Dismiss Polymorph?

[Inevitability]

Polymorph > Permanent Reduce > Dismiss Polymorph?

Or just go for continuous Compression.

[nailbudday]

The air blast attacks granted by the vestige Otiax aren't explicitly manufactured or natural weapons; you don't add strength bonuses (but you do add penalties for some reason), they're touch attacks, you can make AoOs with them, it's unspecified if they threaten, and you get iteratives from BaB. Generally just a mess of an ability.

[Jormengand]

Pyrokineticists can kill someone as a full attack action but that's not how full attack actions work.

[flare'90]

Pyrokineticists can kill someone as a full attack action but that's not how full attack actions work.

The relevant bit, for those curious.


Honestly, I got nothing.
I mean, by RAI it should be a full round action and that would be fine, but as is I guess you have to have BAB +5 or more and declare a target to use the ability?

Ok, I had a stupid idea: since this ability specifies a full attack action, can you use it with pounce/shadowpounce?

[Jormengand]

The relevant bit, for those curious.


Honestly, I got nothing.
I mean, by RAI it should be a full round action and that would be fine, but as is I guess you have to have BAB +5 or more and declare a target to use the ability?

Ok, I had a stupid idea: since this ability specifies a full attack action, can you use it with pounce/shadowpounce?

Technically there's no reason why you can't make a full attack with no iteratives.

I guess you can use it with pounce, or perhaps with psionic lion's charge? Maybe there's something dumb we can do with that fact. The fact that you need to expend your psionic focus can be worked around.

EDIT: Another dysfunction: a Master Thrower is supposed to be able to throw two daggers, two shuriken or two darts in a single attack, but the text says "Two of EACH weapon" so you can throw six weapons with each attack.

[Debatra]

EDIT: Another dysfunction: a Master Thrower is supposed to be able to throw two daggers, two shuriken or two darts in a single attack, but the text says "Two of EACH weapon" so you can throw six weapons with each attack.

Ooh, nice one.