Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

[Jormengand]

A 19 wiz / 1 monk is a level 20 character, so the feat should make them deal damage as a level 24 monk

You could read "If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher" to mean that, but if you did, you would simply be wrong.

[ross]

You could read "If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher" to mean that, but if you did, you would simply be wrong.

nah, the table says character level, not class level, so you're wrong, better luck next time

[Celestia]

nah, the table says character level, not class level, so you're wrong, better luck next time

"If you are a monk, you INSTEAD deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher." Emphasis mine.

The table is irrelevant if you're a monk.

[flare'90]

nah, the table says character level, not class level, so you're wrong, better luck next time

Text trumps table, and this is also reitterated in the ToB Errata non-Errata.

[Hellpyre]

A 19 wiz / 1 monk is a level 20 character, so the feat should make them deal damage as a level 24 monk

But, as written, it makes them deal damage as a 5th level monk. They only have one class level of monk, which is what the feat checks.

[Nifft]

A 19 wiz / 1 monk is a level 20 character, so the feat should make them deal damage as a level 24 monk

That is a ludicrous interpretation, and I love it.

This reading almost makes it worth taking one level of Monk instead of just always using the belt, and therefore I find it harmonious with game balance while also being very silly.

[EliDupree]

Here, how about an even sillier interpretation:

The Wizard 19/Monk 1 deals unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher… but it doesn't say those levels are necessarily Monk levels. I mean, the Wizard 19/Monk 1 is a monk, and when ze's 4 levels higher, ze'll be a Wizard 23/Monk 1, which is technically a monk four levels higher. So ze might still deal unarmed damage as a Monk 1.

[Blue Jay]

In case you thought I was going to stop picking holes in the MM, the grig's TAC is wrong.

I think the grig's touch AC is correct: it's the flat-footed AC that's wrong.

AC 18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 natural)
Touch 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex)
FF 16 should be 14 (+2 size, +2 natural)

[Jormengand]

I think the grig's touch AC is correct: it's the flat-footed AC that's wrong.

AC 18 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 natural)
Touch 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex)
FF 16 should be 14 (+2 size, +2 natural)

Yep. In my defence I was tired and had been trawling through stupid MM monsters all day trying to make stronger versions of them, so I wasn't focusing.

[Bohandas]

The rules for fiendish posession involve the fiend's spirit leaving it's body, but the rules are pretty explicit that outsiders don;t have cartesian dualism

[ShurikVch]

Earlier, I said about a problems with Troll's Regeneration in Kingdoms of Kalamar
Well, apparently, it isn't limited to just Trolls
Some other creatures with Regeneration - such as Anemaconda, Bugbear Mage, or Zek'ira lizardfolk - have it too: nowhere in the RAW it said with what their Regeneration should be bypassed
What's up, authors?
Are you thought "acid and fire" was the "true default method" rather than just a handy example?
Or, maybe, you're intentionally stuffed your book with creatures which couldn't be killed by hp damage?
(Some of them are playable...)

[Inevitability]

Earlier, I said about a problems with Troll's Regeneration in Kingdoms of Kalamar
Well, apparently, it isn't limited to just Trolls
Some other creatures with Regeneration - such as Anemaconda, Bugbear Mage, or Zek'ira lizardfolk - have it too: nowhere in the RAW it said with what their Regeneration should be bypassed
What's up, authors?
Are you thought "acid and fire" was the "true default method" rather than just a handy example?
Or, maybe, you're intentionally stuffed your book with creatures which couldn't be killed by hp damage?
(Some of them are playable...)

My money is on people mixing up regeneration and fast healing.

[Luccan]

Earlier, I said about a problems with Troll's Regeneration in Kingdoms of Kalamar
Well, apparently, it isn't limited to just Trolls
Some other creatures with Regeneration - such as Anemaconda, Bugbear Mage, or Zek'ira lizardfolk - have it too: nowhere in the RAW it said with what their Regeneration should be bypassed
What's up, authors?
Are you thought "acid and fire" was the "true default method" rather than just a handy example?
Or, maybe, you're intentionally stuffed your book with creatures which couldn't be killed by hp damage?
(Some of them are playable...)

According to the d20 SRD:

Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.

Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached.

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Emphasis mine

I don't have the book you're talking about, but unless they specifically recover from coup de grace, they can be killed via hp damage (albeit it takes awhile). Still pretty crazy for a player race, but it's not "can't be killed by hp damage". You knock them out (via hp damage) and coup de grace them.

[ShurikVch]

My money is on people mixing up regeneration and fast healing.

While possible, it's unlikely: not just the book have some number of creatures with actual Fast Healing, but RAW for some creatures with Regeneration actually tells with what it should be bypassed

According to the d20 SRD:
...
Emphasis mine

I don't have the book you're talking about, but unless they specifically recover from coup de grace, they can be killed via hp damage (albeit it takes awhile). Still pretty crazy for a player race, but it's not "can't be killed by hp damage". You knock them out (via hp damage) and coup de grace them.

Please re-read closer your own quote:

Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

[Luccan]

While possible, it's unlikely: not just the book have some number of creatures with actual Fast Healing, but RAW for some creatures with Regeneration actually tells with what it should be bypassed


Please re-read closer your own quote:

Dang, you right.

Huh, that is pretty weird then. I'd assume they thought fire and acid were automatic unless noted, then.

[ShurikVch]

According to errata for Power of Faerûn, the Herald PrC have rather unique Ref Save progression: it's neither Good, nor Bad, and looks more like Epic Save Bonus (starting from the 23rd-level)

[Jormengand]

According to errata for Power of Faerûn, the Herald PrC have rather unique Ref Save progression: it's neither Good, nor Bad, and looks more like Epic Save Bonus (starting from the 23rd-level)

That's... odd, but for all we know, it's deliberate.

[Luccan]

That's... odd, but for all we know, it's deliberate.

Are there any other classes with weird saves or BAB or something like that which we know were on purpose?

I'm willing to call it an editing mistake if not. Seems weird to break the standard save-progression rules and not note it was on purpose.

[Inevitability]

Are there any other classes with weird saves or BAB or something like that which we know were on purpose?

War Hulk's lack of a BAB was probably on purpose.

[Luccan]

War Hulk's lack of a BAB was probably on purpose.

Fair. This still feels odd, though. Especially given it seems to be a version of Loremaster from the DMG? I suppose this could be on purpose, it's clearly meant to improve on that. You get this kind of confusion when you only set two options for something, then do it another way without explaining why.

[Jormengand]

War Hulk's lack of a BAB was probably on purpose.

Survivor also doesn't progress BAB.

[Celestia]

Survivor also doesn't progress BAB.

One time, I came up with a plan to use Survivor and War Hulk to try making a (somewhat) functional build with zero BAB. That quickly fell apart when I remembered that you need BAB to get into War Hulk. :/

[ShurikVch]

One time, I came up with a plan to use Survivor and War Hulk to try making a (somewhat) functional build with zero BAB. That quickly fell apart when I remembered that you need BAB to get into War Hulk. :/

Use the Force Divine Power, Luke Celestia

EDIT:
Or you can start as some monster with enough racial HD for BAB 5+, then die and reincarnate into something without racial HD

[The Viscount]

Are there any other classes with weird saves or BAB or something like that which we know were on purpose?

I'm willing to call it an editing mistake if not. Seems weird to break the standard save-progression rules and not note it was on purpose.

There are two other class that might qualify. Disciple of Mammon and Disciple of Baalzebul both have a nonstandard base attack progression. It is identical to average until level 9, where it goes up by one instead of zero, so ends with +8 instead of +7. BoVD has not received an official update. There have been threads where people have asked Monte Cook, the listed author of BoVD about this, and he said it was intentional. That being said, I do not think this was in an official capacity. It is worth mentioning that Disciple of Asmodeus immediately before them has a regular average base attack progression. Common sense would dictate that this isn't how BA works, but text itself and creator's intent are aligned.

[Hate9]

Use the Force Divine Power, Luke Celestia

EDIT:
Or you can start as some monster with enough racial HD for BAB 5+, then die and reincarnate into something without racial HD

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to qualify for a PrC to benefit from it, not just to take levels in it?

[Inevitability]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to qualify for a PrC to benefit from it, not just to take levels in it?

It's agreed upon that the PrCs from the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane books need their requirements met at all times, but whether the rule should apply to other prestige classes too is a topic of much debate. It might be more balanced overall, but it'd also interact weirdly with a number of already existent PrCs (Dragon Disciple would self-disqualify at level 10, for instance).

[Luccan]

It's agreed upon that the PrCs from the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane books need their requirements met at all times, but whether the rule should apply to other prestige classes too is a topic of much debate. It might be more balanced overall, but it'd also interact weirdly with a number of already existent PrCs (Dragon Disciple would self-disqualify at level 10, for instance).

I feel like this shouldn't be a debate (obviously self-disqualifying isn't RAI, right? Even if RAW, it should obviously be ignored) and yet I'm most certain it is for some reason.

[The Viscount]

I feel like this shouldn't be a debate (obviously self-disqualifying isn't RAI, right? Even if RAW, it should obviously be ignored) and yet I'm most certain it is for some reason.

I agree that self disqualifying is an unfortunate consequence of the continuous qualification stance, but it can be difficult to parse which RAW is safely ignorable for just being stupid and which needs to be discussed.
Also, if you go by strict RAW, the instant that Dragon Disciple and Ur-priest gain the class features that disqualify them, they will as a consequence lose all class features. This means that they will then re-qualify for the class, and so exist in either a Schroedinger's cat style state, or just a very rapid oscillation between qualifying and not qualifying. Following RAW you can actually make the argument that they continue acting as if they qualified.

Not requiring continuous qualification opens up a different problem, and would mean something like characters qualifying for Hulking Hurler while under the effects of enlarge person, and then just moving on, which certainly can't be the intent either.

This is why the debate continues, because either simple statement is problematic and does not fully address the issues at hand. That and we're nerds that like 3.5 because it's a system packed with rules that rewards in-depth knowledge and sometimes seem like they function as an introduction to formal law.

[Debatra]

I've sometimes had similar thoughts about Rules Lawyers becoming good Legal Lawyers (and vice-versa). I also sometimes wonder if legal forums have their own "Dysfunctional Laws" threads.

[Jormengand]

I've sometimes had similar thoughts about Rules Lawyers becoming good Legal Lawyers (and vice-versa). I also sometimes wonder if legal forums have their own "Dysfunctional Laws" threads.

There are some hilarious loopholes in the British legal system - for example, you ca...

...

Never mind. Forum rules and all. But yes, it's the same skills involved, basically.