OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

[Gift Jeraff]

So Bandana is so immature that she calls herself by a nickname she made up when she was 8.

[Forikroder]

So Bandana is so immature that she calls herself by a nickname she made up when she was 8.

people are focusing on the wrong thing

besides Bandana is a way better pirate name then Beatrix

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oh my god Andi, let it go! Bandana grew up even if she kept the nickname (and was absolutely adorable as a little kid). You? Did not.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Count me as also thinking it would take longer for Bandana to wake up. She must have a decent CON score, or just rolled well on the save. And even better, now she can call Andi on the rampant BS, not that Andi gives a crap what anyone actually thinks.

On the other hand, being an engineer myself, I am getting a little fed up with the same-old "people in STEM fields make terrible leaders" plotline that's been beaten to a cliché long ago. I get it, Andi herself is an entitled jerkass whose wanton stupidity is likely to get the ship destroyed. I don't also have to get beat over the head (wrench, anvil or otherwise) with the fact that she's an engineer.

I know anti-intellectualism is all the rage these days (sometimes literally), but Andi could have been any crewmember on the ship -- gunner, lookout, quartermaster, pilot, medic, cook, deck-swabber, whatever -- and it would be totally incidental to the plot. The only key thing is that she's been a dedicated crew member on the ship for a long time. Making her specifically an engineer and then grinding that fact in strip after strip just gives me a mean-spirited impression from the author and, against my best intentions, is actually building sympathy for Andi that I should not rationally have.

[Morquard]

Wonder how the Andi friends weasel out of this one...

[Mido]

And while Bandana (Beatrix) and Andi work out their issues, Roy parries strikes from 250 pound battle axes. All in a day's work for heroes. Also, we now know that Bandana has been on the Mechane longer than Andi has.

"Neither were you, not that it stopped you ...". Uh, if the ship's owner says "I'm leaving Bandana in charge", Bandana is the acting captain. Which means, for those slow on the uptake, she gets to act just like the captain acts, with full authority of the position. Including bossing around the chief engineer.

Any Andi defenders left?

*Grabs popcorn*

Andi, you cray-cray.

[Darth Tom]

I wonder whether someone idly asked whether the Giant could write a more annoying character than Miko, and he took that as a challenge.

Or whether he was wondering just how evil a character would have to be in order for fans to get that no, they don't have a point, and decided this was not the axis of unsympathy he needed.

Either way, I get the feeling both Andi and Grey Wolf are meant to represent more than just NPCs, and at some point we'll get it.

In the meantime, yay for new PDFs!

[Keltest]

Count me as also thinking it would take longer for Bandana to wake up. She must have a decent CON score, or just rolled well on the save. And even better, now she can call Andi on the rampant BS, not that Andi gives a crap what anyone actually thinks.

On the other hand, being an engineer myself, I am getting a little fed up with the same-old "people in STEM fields make terrible leaders" plotline that's been beaten to a cliché long ago. I get it, Andi herself is an entitled jerkass whose wanton stupidity is likely to get the ship destroyed. I don't also have to get beat over the head (wrench, anvil or otherwise) with the fact that she's an engineer.

I know anti-intellectualism is all the rage these days (sometimes literally), but Andi could have been any crewmember on the ship -- gunner, lookout, quartermaster, pilot, medic, cook, deck-swabber, whatever -- and it would be totally incidental to the plot. The only key thing is that she's been a dedicated crew member on the ship for a long time. Making her specifically an engineer and then grinding that fact in strip after strip just gives me a mean-spirited impression from the author and, against my best intentions, is actually building sympathy for Andi that I should not rationally have.

I agree. Frankly, it would have been far better if Andi HADNT been head engineer, because she has failed quite a few of the job requirements for that, so it begs the question of what, exactly, she was getting paid to do on the ship? Because it cant have been engineering.

[Darth Tom]

Count me as also thinking it would take longer for Bandana to wake up. She must have a decent CON score, or just rolled well on the save. And even better, now she can call Andi on the rampant BS, not that Andi gives a crap what anyone actually thinks.

On the other hand, being an engineer myself, I am getting a little fed up with the same-old "people in STEM fields make terrible leaders" plotline that's been beaten to a cliché long ago. I get it, Andi herself is an entitled jerkass whose wanton stupidity is likely to get the ship destroyed. I don't also have to get beat over the head (wrench, anvil or otherwise) with the fact that she's an engineer.

I know anti-intellectualism is all the rage these days (sometimes literally), but Andi could have been any crewmember on the ship -- gunner, lookout, quartermaster, pilot, medic, cook, deck-swabber, whatever -- and it would be totally incidental to the plot. The only key thing is that she's been a dedicated crew member on the ship for a long time. Making her specifically an engineer and then grinding that fact in strip after strip just gives me a mean-spirited impression from the author and, against my best intentions, is actually building sympathy for Andi that I should not rationally have.

Interesting. I didn't think of it that way; I had simply assumed it was a subversion of the "reliable engineer" character a la Scotty.

[Peelee]

Kay, I'm going to defend Andi here: no one who still uses at 23* a nickname that they gave themselves at 8 or younger is fit for command.

*Andi has been fixing the ship for 15 years

A.) If she was fixing the ship while learning trig, she's damned impressive. I give her a few years at least to learn engineering, and would peg Bandi at 25-28. With that 15 year comment, probably 25.

2.) I, sir, am totally fit for command!

Count me as also thinking it would take longer for Bandana to wake up. She must have a decent CON score, or just rolled well on the save. And even better, now she can call Andi on the rampant BS, not that Andi gives a crap what anyone actually thinks.

On the other hand, being an engineer myself, I am getting a little fed up with the same-old "people in STEM fields make terrible leaders" plotline that's been beaten to a cliché long ago. I get it, Andi herself is an entitled jerkass whose wanton stupidity is likely to get the ship destroyed. I don't also have to get beat over the head (wrench, anvil or otherwise) with the fact that she's an engineer.

I know anti-intellectualism is all the rage these days (sometimes literally), but Andi could have been any crewmember on the ship -- gunner, lookout, quartermaster, pilot, medic, cook, deck-swabber, whatever -- and it would be totally incidental to the plot. The only key thing is that she's been a dedicated crew member on the ship for a long time. Making her specifically an engineer and then grinding that fact in strip after strip just gives me a mean-spirited impression from the author and, against my best intentions, is actually building sympathy for Andi that I should not rationally have.

Wait, what?!? What in the comic is saying that Andi makes bad leadership decisions because she's an engineer? She makes bad leadership decisions. She's also an engineer. The two are no more connected than the fact that she makes bad leadership decisions and is a woman. Or a former babysitter. Or cold.

Really, I think you're reading into things that just aren't there.

[nocoolnamejim]

"It just so happens that all your decisions are wrong, and the other options are right, by default."

Andi defenders - Giant doesn't get anymore blatant than this is trying to make it clear that all of Andi's motivation is completely personal.

Good lord, she has to reach back to her babysitting days to justify herself and then just said that all of Bandana's decisions are wrong "by default".

Andi once said she'd been fixing the ship for 15 years in #1066. Then that means that it's probably been around 20 years since she first came onboard as a teenage babysitter still doing homework.

A couple of years years to graduate and a couple more more to move up the ranks to chief engineer. Although I suppose should could have included her time as a junior engineer in that time.

So I'd say late 20s for Bandana and mid-30s for Andi are about right. If Andi's doing Trig homework in that flashback she's probably somewhere between 15-17. Which would make her about 35-37ish currently. Or possibly even less than that if she included her junior engineer work in her "15 years of fixing the ship". She could be 33-35 for instance, which would make her complaints about Bandana being just a kid even more stupid.

Bandana's 8 in the flashback so add 20 to that and she's 28 now. Definitely not "just a kid".

[TuringTest]

On the other hand, being an engineer myself, I am getting a little fed up with the same-old "people in STEM fields make terrible leaders" plotline that's been beaten to a cliché long ago. I get it, Andi herself is an entitled jerkass whose wanton stupidity is likely to get the ship destroyed. I don't also have to get beat over the head (wrench, anvil or otherwise) with the fact that she's an engineer.

I'm an engineer myself, and I don't feel that way at all. We've got a lot of other characters who were absolute jerks (Celia comes to mind) and were not engineers. Why being an engineer should mean that she gets to *not* be a jerk? I find that this only speaks of the jerkiness of this particular engineer, not of its whole character class.

I know anti-intellectualism is all the rage these days (sometimes literally), but Andi could have been any crewmember on the ship -- gunner, lookout, quartermaster, pilot, medic, cook, deck-swabber, whatever -- and it would be totally incidental to the plot. The only key thing is that she's been a dedicated crew member on the ship for a long time. Making her specifically an engineer and then grinding that fact in strip after strip just gives me a mean-spirited impression from the author and, against my best intentions, is actually building sympathy for Andi that I should not rationally have.

Woah, woah! Anti-intellectualism? This is the comic where the leader of the main characters is a warrior that prides himself of his high INT, and how it makes him a better fighter.

[Jasdoif]

If she was fixing the ship while learning trig, she's damned impressive.

And if she was fixing the ship while also babysitting, I'd be less than impressed with the Mechane's staffing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'd say it's just some good ol' percussive maintenance. Oldest trick in the book.

Ah, the Colin Maud School of Vehicular Repair.

And Bandana is wrong. This doesn't call for a facepalm. It calls for either Sneak Attack Up Side the Head or a BSOD. Preferably the former.

[Shining Wrath]

Kay, I'm going to defend Andi here: no one who still uses at 23* a nickname that they gave themselves at 8 or younger is fit for command.

*Andi has been fixing the ship for 15 years

Thanks. That makes Bandana 23, Andi 28 to 31 depending on when she took Trig.

people are focusing on the wrong thing

besides Bandana is a way better pirate name then Beatrix

Yeah, the Dread Pirate Beatrix isn't going to inspire fear in too many dwarven blimps laden with platinum.

A.) If she was fixing the ship while learning trig, she's damned impressive. I give her a few years at least to learn engineering, and would peg Bandi at 25-28. With that 15 year comment, probably 25.

2.) I, sir, am totally fit for command!



Wait, what?!? What in the comic is saying that Andi makes bad leadership decisions because she's an engineer? She makes bad leadership decisions. She's also an engineer. The two are no more connected than the fact that she makes bad leadership decisions and is a woman. Or a former babysitter. Or cold.

Really, I think you're reading into things that just aren't there.

I think the objection is to the existence of the trope that STEM = no social skills, e.g., nearly everyone not named Booth on "Bones", which Andi being the chief engineer (as opposed to head balista gunner, leader of boarding parties, or some other responsible position) reinforces.

And you are NOT fit for command, because I'm taller than you are, and have a deeper voice.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I get the feeling both Andi and Grey Wolf are meant to represent more than just NPCs

Wait, who?

Grey Wolf

[nocoolnamejim]

So at what point does Bandana call Felix or the half-elf (forgot her name) over, ask to be untied, and then retake command?

Also, it would be hilarious if Bandana untied herself because Hayley has been teaching her some thief skills on how to deal with knots and then clocked Andi from behind.

[Mido]

Wait, what?!? What in the comic is saying that Andi makes bad leadership decisions because she's an engineer? She makes bad leadership decisions. She's also an engineer. The two are no more connected than the fact that she makes bad leadership decisions and is a woman. Or a former babysitter. Or cold.

Really, I think you're reading into things that just aren't there.

This. Don't confuse correlation with causality. Fact that Andi is an engineer does not impede her competency to lead or to be a good captain, it's all the other stuff that's she's done so far in the name of subjective personal bias.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

It's on board. I assume it's the cabin of the Secundus family.

Maybe, but it's still incredibly spacious - even if that's only a single bed (and two pillows probably means it's a double, so it might well be her parents room), the back wall looks to be a good 10-15 feet or so away, with a lot of floor space between us and the bed. Ships tend to be a lot more limited in space than that.

On the other hand, if a ship's not carrying any cargo, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the crew to temporarily spread out into currently unused areas - such as the hold - in order to take advantage of the available space and get out from being on top of each other.

[nocoolnamejim]

Wait, who?

Grey Wolf

I think he's referring to "knod head, get treat" character.

[hamishspence]

Edit: Haley is indeed older than Bandana. And Haley is 25 or so now.

Maybe Haley is unaware of Beatrix's exact age - and "big sister" is more metaphorical than literal.

That would allow for her to be in her late twenties, and for Andi to begin "fixing the ship" a few years on from when she was babysitting.

[Wryte]

Andi once said she'd been fixing the ship for 15 years in #1066. Then that means that it's probably been around 20 years since she first came onboard as a teenage babysitter still doing homework.

A couple of years years to graduate and a couple more more to move up the ranks to chief engineer. Although I suppose should could have included her time as a junior engineer in that time.

As amazingly petty as Andi's being here about age and time aboard, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she were counting her time still studying to be an engineer in that 15.

:bandana: Wait, 15? Andi, you've only been a certified engineer for 8 years.

:andi: I put some duct tape over a crack on my second day! It counts!

[Quibblicious]

On the other hand, being an engineer myself, I am getting a little fed up with the same-old "people in STEM fields make terrible leaders" plotline that's been beaten to a cliché long ago. I get it, Andi herself is an entitled jerkass whose wanton stupidity is likely to get the ship destroyed. I don't also have to get beat over the head (wrench, anvil or otherwise) with the fact that she's an engineer.

From one engineer to another...

Spoiler

Show

Q

[hamishspence]

As amazingly petty as Andi's being here about age and time aboard, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she were counting her time still studying to be an engineer in that 15.

:bandana: Wait, 15? Andi, you've only been a certified engineer for 8 years.

:andi: I put some duct tape over a crack on my second day! It counts!

That works too.

[Shining Wrath]

Maybe, but it's still incredibly spacious - even if that's only a single bed (and two pillows probably means it's a double, so it might well be her parents room), the back wall looks to be a good 10-15 feet or so away, with a lot of floor space between us and the bed. Ships tend to be a lot more limited in space than that.

On the other hand, if a ship's not carrying any cargo, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the crew to temporarily spread out into currently unused areas - such as the hold - in order to take advantage of the available space and get out from being on top of each other.

Or it could be TV Sitcom setting, where poor people in walk-up apartments have living rooms big enough to place a camera 20 feet away from them while they quip back and forth.

[SaintRidley]

So Bandana is so immature that she calls herself by a nickname she made up when she was 8.

Seems likely that others heard her when she was eight, thought it was cute, started calling her that themselves, and it stuck.

[Shining Wrath]

From one engineer to another...

Spoiler

Show

Q

Carbon based AI systems have such awkwardly designed user interfaces.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think he's referring to "knod head, get treat" character.

Even if it's Greyview, I don't see why he's being lumped in with Andi - I don't see any characterisation in common between them.

GW

[Quibblicious]

Carbon based AI systems have such awkwardly designed user interfaces.

But sometimes it's Oh So Good...

Q
Engineer/Bard, Married with 2 kids, knows a thing or two about hugs and carbon based AI systems.

[Peelee]

I think the objection is to the existence of the trope that STEM = no social skills, e.g., nearly everyone not named Booth on "Bones", which Andi being the chief engineer (as opposed to head balista gunner, leader of boarding parties, or some other responsible position) reinforces.

And you are NOT fit for command, because I'm taller than you are, and have a deeper voice.

First off, on Bones, only Bones herself and Zack were socially inept (and Zack was clearly picked by Bones because she felt like she understood him well due to his similarities to her). Hodgins, Sweets, Camille, and Goodman are all perfectly fine socially. This seems like confirmation bias; some people, usually the main characters, are given unconventional traits to make them more interesting and/or unique. They have more lines, screentime, and focus in general. Others who are also in STEM fields but are background characters do not have similar emotional handicaps, but are less focused on, and thus more forgettable, even though they exist.

Also, i think you'd be surprised at the depth of my voice. Plus, I'm louder and talk faster. What now?