Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[lord_khaine]

So long as you are comfortable with the amount of money you will spend on your collection, it shouldnt matter what edition you play or if you play at all. From experience, people tend to drop by stores not to ´socialize with strangers' but to find games at all, since most people who can afford expensive plastic toys tend to be busy people with busy lifes and well paying jobs, with equally busy friends who have all grown old and cant play anymore.

I fear this part is sadly true for a lot of us

[Cheesegear]

I did not get into tabletop games in order to socialize with strangers after all. : P

That's basically the only reason I got (back) into tabletop games.

If fexes are that big of a deal, I may as well just get two of the double carnifex box instead

Correct. I don't know why anybody didn't mention the double box first.

How do you run 5 Flyrants?

In Shield of Baal; Leviathan (not a book I'm sure you have), there's a new Tyranid Detachment with three HQ slots in it. Leviathan also introduces a new unit; The Mucloid Spore. Since Spores don't Score, it doesn't matter if they don't have Objective Secured. So, for the low, low, low price of 45 Points, you can have a 3rd Hive Tyrant in a single Detachment. It also helps that Mucloids are S8, AP3, which is another weapon that Tyranids have above S6 so they can actually hurt Vehicles as well.

If your meta does not arbitrarily restrict the number of Detachments you can take, then it doesn't matter. Just take 3 CADs and have six Hive Tyrants and keep ObSec on your Troops units. Unless you want to min/max with Mucloid Spores, in which case you're buying Leviathan anyway and you may as well just run the Hive Fleet Detachment to spite people.

Leviathan also has
- Competitive Zoanthropes
- Toxicrenes
- Tyrannocytes (these have probably come up several times by now)
- Skytyrant Swarms
- Skyblight Swarms
- Some players like the Sporefield, I don't, because I play Maelstrom.

[Eldan]

Tyranids are fundamentally a swarm army. Their motto is "why take one, when you can take three?". Combined with an army structure that makes succeeding at small-points games very hard, is why I wouldn't recommend them to a new player very often. You could bring a single carnifex, but with only 4 wounds it won't likely make it to combat very often. Still, it can work as a distraction for the rest of your forces: eg a squad of Zoanthropes casting buff powers on it.

Define small games? We had 500 points per player 2 vs. 2 tournaments about a year ago, and our team of double nids absolutely crushed the opposition. 2 hive tyrants, tons of gaunts, did very well.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, going to my FLGS today. Which nids should I ask about for vehicle busting?

I may be able to afford the double Fex box soon, the concern really is getting the money for a second, and then a third. Plus, if I do that, I really won't be able to justify buying any more big Tyranids for a WHILE.

[Cheesegear]

Which nids should I ask about for vehicle busting?

Hive Tyrants - S6 / Haywire
Hive Guard - S8 / Haywire
Hive Crones - Haywire

Carnifexes - If you want one, you'll want five.
Tyrannofexes - If you want one, you'll want three.

Exocrines are almost useful, as they have ranged AP2. The good thing about AP2, is that it's even more useful when you don't shoot it at a Vehicle.

[Voidhawk]

Well, going to my FLGS today. Which nids should I ask about for vehicle busting?

I may be able to afford the double Fex box soon, the concern really is getting the money for a second, and then a third. Plus, if I do that, I really won't be able to justify buying any more big Tyranids for a WHILE.

It really depends on your metagame, eg how seriously everyone around you plays and what forces they like to bring. But you definitely don't NEED to jump straight to 6 carnifexes, and your lack of non-warrior synapse is IMHO a better thing to look at.

I'd suggest enquiring about:
1) A Hive Crone. It fits what you've said you like, and is a single model that doesn't need more investment to do its job.
2) A Tervigon and a few more Termagants for spawning. With the Hive Guard you already have that'll give you a good ground force to sit on objectives and maintain synapse while your Flyrants do the heavy lifting.

But I'd suggest playing some larger games with what you have first. The worst feeling is buying something, assembling and painting it, and only then finding out you don't enjoy playing with it.

[Blackhawk748]

At 1500 ish you can get by with a pair of Fexes, id just consider jumping that up to 4 when you get the chance, cuz Fexes love to play in groups.

[Parra]

The Tau Drone-Net VX1-0 gives drones (amongst other things) a +1 BS and the ability to Jink. When you Jink you can only Snap Fire in the following Shooting Phase. Snap Fire sets your BS to 1. Does the +1 BS to the Drones happen before or after Snap Fire reduces the BS to 1?

[LeSwordfish]

Before: Snap Fire overrides any other penalty or bonus, unless explicitly stated.

[Cheesegear]

The Tau Drone-Net VX1-0 gives drones (amongst other things) a +1 BS and the ability to Jink. When you Jink you can only Snap Fire in the following Shooting Phase. Snap Fire sets your BS to 1. Does the +1 BS to the Drones happen before or after Snap Fire reduces the BS to 1?

The +1BS happens at the start of the game, and is not a renewable effect. So, choosing to Jink definitely occurs after you gain +1 BS.

[Parra]

While it does not explicitly state it effects Snap Fire it DOES explicitly state that the +1 to BS only happens in the Shooting Phase so it would not work with Interceptor. Which is what made me question its application to Snap Fire after a Jink.

[Drasius]

While it does not explicitly state it effects Snap Fire it DOES explicitly state that the +1 to BS only happens in the Shooting Phase so it would not work with Interceptor. Which is what made me question its application to Snap Fire after a Jink.

Since you can fire as many weapons in overwatch/interceptor as you can in the shooting phase (read: Multitracker/MC can fire 2 weapons, vehicles can fire all) as it has been classed that the various out of sequence shooting is in fact a shooting phase, I'd say that the drones get their +1 BS during interceptor too.

[Cheesegear]

The Rulebook, Page 33
The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only by modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots [...] If a special rule doesn't specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

I italicised the bits that matter.

Rulebook FAQ, Page 13
Q: Does a rule written like the markerlight ability ‘Seeker’ – ‘resolved at Ballistic Skill 5’ – bypass the modifier system or rules that force you to fire Snap Shots?
A: No

A Seeker Missile does not explicitly bypass Snap Shots, therefore it doesn't. Per the rules.

Tau FAQ, Page 2
Q: If Tau units use markerlights to increase their Ballistic Skill against a unit with Invisibility cast on it, do they gain an increase to their Ballistic Skill when firing Snap Shots?
A: Yes. A Tau unit that targets an invisible unit and expends one markerlight counter on that unit will fire Snap Shots at it at BS2. If the unit expended another markerlight counter on that unit, they would fire Snap Shots at BS3

Markerlights explicitly are said to work against Invisibility, so it does. Per the rules. However, this Q&A does not mention any other time when you would fire a Snap Shot, so it doesn't apply at those times.

You get +1 BS during the Shooting Phase, but you're shooting Snap Shots. Does +1BS explicitly bypass the Snap Shot rule? Because if it doesn't, then it doesn't.

Since you can fire as many weapons in overwatch/interceptor as you can in the shooting phase (read: Multitracker/MC can fire 2 weapons, vehicles can fire all) as it has been classed that the various out of sequence shooting is in fact a shooting phase, I'd say that the drones get their +1 BS during interceptor too.

Please show source, 'cause I can't find a source, aside from (old) Adepticon rules, which was mostly - but not totally - integrated into the FAQs. Because 'free Shooting Phase' is exactly what Interceptor/Overwatch isn't. Otherwise why play Melee armies at all?
It's not a Shooting Phase, but there are several Tau-specific questions that rule that you can do some things, but not other things (while Adepticon let you do everything, which was flawed).
Because Interceptor isn't the Shooting Phase, Tau can do a lot of things during Interceptor/Overwatch (per the FAQ, which is basically per what Adepticon had before the FAQs came out), and +1 BS isn't one of them.

You could argue the point.
But why do Markerlights only work against Invisibility and not other Snap Shots?
Why does Interceptor/Overwatch count as a 'Shooting Phase' at some times, but not other times?
Because RAW.

[Lost Demiurge]

I've got a basic question. I'll ask here because I'm still a tau newbie...

The tau shield drone, force field drone, whatever. The only explanation on that thing is that it adds a 4++ invulnerable save.

To what? What are the limitations of its power?

Does it only work when socketed into vehicles? Can you put it in a unit of troops and have it shield the unit? Can a broadside or a riptide have one?

Maybe I'm just misreading things. Perhaps the codex has a thorough explanation in it somewhere that I simply missed.

[Voidhawk]

I've got a basic question. I'll ask here because I'm still a tau newbie...

The tau shield drone, force field drone, whatever. The only explanation on that thing is that it adds a 4++ invulnerable save.

To what? What are the limitations of its power?

Does it only work when socketed into vehicles? Can you put it in a unit of troops and have it shield the unit? Can a broadside or a riptide have one?

Maybe I'm just misreading things. Perhaps the codex has a thorough explanation in it somewhere that I simply missed.

Tau Shield Drones basically don't work.

They (and only the drone) have a 4++, and the idea is that you put them at the front of a unit and use them to soak lascannon shots. But since your opponent gets to decide which guns to resolve first in his shooting phase, he'll just choose to kill the drones with bolters or whatever before he fires lascannons into the now exposed battlesuits. In general you're better off with any other kind of drone.

The exception to this is units of Crisis Bodyguard with an attached character (or Shadowsun in Stealthsuits). They gain the Sworn Protector rule, so they auto pass Look out Sir, letting you actually take the right hits with the right models. But few people use Commanders in this way.

[Lost Demiurge]

Well that's fine then. Plenty of other tricks in the Tau arsenal.

I appreciate the answer. Good to know what the hell they DO.

Although, hm, they might be marginally useful in kill team. Have to go back and look at the points cost.

[Forum Explorer]

Markerlights explicitly are said to work against Invisibility, so it does. Per the rules. However, this Q&A does not mention any other time when you would fire a Snap Shot, so it doesn't apply at those times.

You get +1 BS during the Shooting Phase, but you're shooting Snap Shots. Does +1BS explicitly bypass the Snap Shot rule? Because if it doesn't, then it doesn't.



Please show source, 'cause I can't find a source, aside from (old) Adepticon rules, which was mostly - but not totally - integrated into the FAQs. Because 'free Shooting Phase' is exactly what Interceptor/Overwatch isn't. Otherwise why play Melee armies at all?
It's not a Shooting Phase, but there are several Tau-specific questions that rule that you can do some things, but not other things (while Adepticon let you do everything, which was flawed).
Because Interceptor isn't the Shooting Phase, Tau can do a lot of things during Interceptor/Overwatch (per the FAQ, which is basically per what Adepticon had before the FAQs came out), and +1 BS isn't one of them.

You could argue the point.
But why do Markerlights only work against Invisibility and not other Snap Shots?
Why does Interceptor/Overwatch count as a 'Shooting Phase' at some times, but not other times?
Because RAW.

Markerlights work against other Snap Shots. It says '...can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch.'

The real question is why did they need to ask about Invisibility being an exception or not.

[Drasius]

Please show source, 'cause I can't find a source, aside from (old) Adepticon rules, which was mostly - but not totally - integrated into the FAQs. Because 'free Shooting Phase' is exactly what Interceptor/Overwatch isn't. Otherwise why play Melee armies at all?
It's not a Shooting Phase, but there are several Tau-specific questions that rule that you can do some things, but not other things (while Adepticon let you do everything, which was flawed).
Because Interceptor isn't the Shooting Phase, Tau can do a lot of things during Interceptor/Overwatch (per the FAQ, which is basically per what Adepticon had before the FAQs came out), and +1 BS isn't one of them.

You could argue the point.
But why do Markerlights only work against Invisibility and not other Snap Shots?
Why does Interceptor/Overwatch count as a 'Shooting Phase' at some times, but not other times?
Because RAW.

Multi-trackers work "in the shooting phase", MC's can fire "up to 2 weapons in the shooting phase" etc and they can still do so during interceptor/overwatch as per FAQ's. If they're allowed to use their special "during the shooting phase" rules during overwatch/interceptor, then obviously overwatch/interceptor is an out of sequence shooting phase as per the FAQ's, no?

[JNAProductions]

Question: In a recent game, my opponent (who was fielding the Triumvirate of Bobby G.) claimed his save rerolls could be used by anyone in the army, not just the Triumvirate. That sounded wrong to me, but we ended up just dicing it to save time.

Who was right?

[LeSwordfish]

Question: In a recent game, my opponent (who was fielding the Triumvirate of Bobby G.) claimed his save rerolls could be used by anyone in the army, not just the Triumvirate. That sounded wrong to me, but we ended up just dicing it to save time.

Who was right?

You were. It explicitly says "You can re-roll one failed saving throw each turn for each model from this Formation."

[JNAProductions]

He argued that that means that he has a total of three rerolls he can use for any models in his army.

Can I have references to page numbers and such that would prove me correct, if I play him again?

[LeSwordfish]

I can see where he's coming from with that, but it does feel like dodgy RAW.

Page 130.

[lord_khaine]

He argued that that means that he has a total of three rerolls he can use for any models in his army.

If Leswordfish quoted that correctly then it can also be read that way. Would need a second source to confirm how its suposed to be used.

edit.

I can see where he's coming from with that, but it does feel like dodgy RAW.

Sadly, whats raw or dodgy is really, really subjective here in 7th.

[Cheesegear]

then obviously overwatch/interceptor is an out of sequence shooting phase as per the FAQ's, no?

Does it say "Overwatch/Interceptor is simply another shooting phase." because I can't find that.
Or does it say "You can also use some certain 'Shooting Phase' items during Overwatch/Interceptor even though we said you couldn't because this is Errata." with the implication that you can't use other certain items?

[Wraith]

He argued that that means that he has a total of three rerolls he can use for any models in his army.

Can I have references to page numbers and such that would prove me correct, if I play him again?

It says for each model in the Formation, not per each model. The former means that it's those models only, the latter means "on behalf of". It is not written as clearly as it could be, but it's also not that ambiguous, I feel.

[Drasius]

Does it say "Overwatch/Interceptor is simply another shooting phase." because I can't find that.
Or does it say "You can also use some certain 'Shooting Phase' items during Overwatch/Interceptor even though we said you couldn't because this is Errata." with the implication that you can't use other certain items?

Q: Can Tau models that are able to shoot multiple weapons in
the Shooting phase also fire multiple weapons in Overwatch and
multiple weapons with the Interceptor rule?
A: When firing Overwatch or weapons with the
Interceptor special rule, a model can fire all of the
weapons it could usually fire in the Shooting phase.
In the case of Interceptor, only weapons with the
Interceptor rule can be fired.
Q: Does the multi-tracker work when firing Overwatch or
with weapons with the Interceptor rule? What about the
Signature Systems?
A: Yes. In the case of Interceptor, only weapons with the
Interceptor rule can be fired. The Signature Systems
(the Command and Control Node and Multi-spectrum
Sensor Suite) specify that they cannot be used in
Overwatch, but they could be used when firing weapons
with the Interceptor rule.
Q: Do abilities that allow a model to fire an extra weapon
in the Shooting phase allow them to fire an extra weapon in
Overwatch or while intercepting (e.g. Monstrous Creatures and
Tau multi-trackers)?
A: Yes. In the case of Interceptor, only weapons with the
Interceptor rule can be fired.
Q: Do Monstrous Creatures fire Overwatch with one weapon or
up to two (they can use up to two during each Shooting phase)?
A: Up to two.
Q: How many shooting attacks can I do when
firing Overwatch?
A: As many as the model can fire in the Shooting phase.

All the stuff I could find in the Errata with exact wording. RAI, I feel that they should get +1BS, but RAW, no, not until it's FAQ'ed/Errated/8th'ed.

[Cheesegear]

Well Necromunda Kill Team With Level-Ups Shadow War looks awesome. I'm a bit disappointed that certain models didn't make the cut, or bizarre business decisions where you can buy a box of five Terminators 'for Shadow War', except you can only use one...Sometimes.

I also wonder how much of it is a precursor to 8th Ed.

[Rizhail]

Well Necromunda Kill Team With Level-Ups Shadow War looks awesome. I'm a bit disappointed that certain models didn't make the cut, or bizarre business decisions where you can buy a box of five Terminators 'for Shadow War', except you can only use one...Sometimes.

I also wonder how much of it is a precursor to 8th Ed.

I'm really liking the look of it, though I hope of a lot of the rules for it aren't included in new edition; can you imagine attempting to run assaults with something like those rules? On the other hand, Terminators would be happy to have the 3+ save on 2d6 back. Combined with AoS style rend on attacks, they would actually be pretty damned durable again. In Shadow War, they even get to take saves against Wraithcannons and D-scythes. It's only a 10+ on 2d6, but that's still roughly 1/4 of wounds saved when no one else even gets to use armor.

The variety of different kill teams looks pretty cool, and it should be a neat way to bring in new folks to the game. It's pretty obvious from the choices in models that each kill team should be buildable from one or two standard model boxes (one wych box for dark eldar, a guardian box and dire avenger box for craftworlds, box or two of warriors for 'nids, etc.). I really hope they continue to support the game by releasing rules for other kill teams in the same manner. I'm honestly tempted to go dig through each army's troops boxes to try and figure out what sort of kill teams we might see in the future.

For anyone interested, GW has already posted the free rules for each of the factions not included in the main Shadow War game box (orks, marines, and guard have to wait for the box to release in a week). First link is to the official PDF from GW; second is to a google drive in which some kind soul has split the 60 page file into individual PDFs for each faction.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resou...lteams_ENG.pdf
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...zlvb1hwa1k0SGs

[Cheesegear]

For anyone interested, GW has already posted the free rules for each of the factions not included in the main Shadow War game box...

One of the things that bothers me is that Eldar have a friggin' Autarch as a Special Operative.

"Yeah, I know you're busy commanding our entire Craftworld and defending the solar system from Tyranids, but do you want to take a break from that to go digging in a human sewer for some ancient relic that we aren't even sure is there?"
Sign me up.

[Rizhail]

One of the things that bothers me is that Eldar have a friggin' Autarch as a Special Operative.

"Yeah, I know you're busy commanding our entire Craftworld and defending the solar system from Tyranids, but do you want to take a break from that to go digging in a human sewer for some ancient relic that we aren't even sure is there?"
Sign me up.

That and the Tau getting an Ethereal bother me. "Sure, let's just send one of our spiritual leaders along on a scouting mission, with his only bodyguards being our least armored troops who suffer from extreme attrition. NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS PLAN, NO SIR!" At least with the Succubus you have the excuse that they do like to take to the field and show off from time to time; helps keep the Syrens and other competitors in line.

I feel like Exarchs from other shrines would fit better as operatives for the Eldar; a Banshee or Scorpion to add some melee to a shooty kill team (and infiltration for the Scorpion), or a Swooping Hawk if they really want to play up the maneuverability and shootiness. Like you pointed out with the terminators, it's not like GW is trying to avoid using single operatives from large unit boxes, so why not go for the good stuff? (likely answer: all those things I just mentioned are metal/finecast and likely to be phased out eventually, so they want to stick to plastic. But still, verisimilitude = broken).

I'm definitely looking forward to busting out my Wych cult minis for a change, and maybe putting together some small kill teams for other factions. Not needing to buy a codex and only needing a box or two really does make this accessible for expanding one's collection. I could see some fun things popping out of this, too; I'm envisioning a CSM kill team lead by an undivided champion, with one marine of each mark and cultists to fill any remaining space.