Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[boomwolf]

Well, to be honest, ethreals are not that few in numbers. they make up an entire caste.

So I'd wager its a low ranking one, probably on some diplomatic errand to a planet they attempt to subjugate (so only minimal bodyguard, as they attempt to seem peaceful) that got into trouble, rather than a planned combat mission.

[Wraith]

One of the things that bothers me is that Eldar have a friggin' Autarch as a Special Operative.

"Yeah, I know you're busy commanding our entire Craftworld and defending the solar system from Tyranids, but do you want to take a break from that to go digging in a human sewer for some ancient relic that we aren't even sure is there?"
Sign me up.

Fro what I've read in the Eldar-centric short stories and other stuff, this is exactly what they would do; even Eldrad does it all the time Honestly I don't see it as a problem - Special Operatives only come into play when your Team is badly outmatched (assuming that they work the same way as Hired Guns in the Necromunda rules, which is likely), so why wouldn't an Autarch, seeing an important mission that is highly in risk of failure, step in to take a personal role if the need is great enough?

Some of the units are a bit weird - there are only 40 Purifiers in existence, for example, so the odds of finding one of them on Armageddon is... unlikely - and I'd have liked to see a more varied choice for some Races. Craftworld Eldar, for example, are the most psychic race in the galaxy and can take Wraithguard, but not a Warlock in any capacity? Overall, I'm mostly liking the choices for the different units available, though, and there aren't any that immediately scream out that they shouldn't be there.

I also wonder how much of it is a precursor to 8th Ed.

History suggests that it could be extensive; Gorkamorka predated 3rd edition by a year, and was the test-run for the close combat rules, armour penetration and vehicle rules. While I hope they don't go full "2.5nd Edition", undoubtedly GW are planning the return of Movement Values and Armour Saving Modifiers at least, according to some of the more reliable rumours mills.

[Adrastos42]

Hmm, a little disappointed not to see rules for deathwatch killteams in that pdf.

[Wraith]

Space Marines and Orks do have rules, they just haven't been completely revealed yet. You could easily use the rules for Space Marines, Grey Knights or Chaos Space Marines to represent Deathwatch, wherein some of the weirder equipment or abilities can be reinterpreted as "special equipment given to them by the Ordo Xenos".

[Cheesegear]

Hmm, a little disappointed not to see rules for deathwatch killteams in that pdf.

Pretty sure there is.

Spoiler

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I'll just get a few more of my unpainted Scouts out of the box, and paint up some dudes with Knives/Chainswords, and maybe I'll finally have a use my Scout/s with Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers?

[bluntpencil]

Pretty sure there is.

Nope, it appears Deathwatch Veterans aren't a Kill-Team of their own, unless they're in the core rulebook as their own faction.

[Cheesegear]

Nope, it appears Deathwatch Veterans aren't a Kill-Team of their own...

Did you look at my picture? Do you see that I'm basically already doing exactly what Wraith said?
Did you see the '' after the picture? Indicating that a Deathwatch Kill-Team is exactly what I'll be running?

[bluntpencil]

They're still just Scouts.

Where's the special gear? The 2Attacks? The awesome pauldrons?

If Eldar get Autarchs...

[Cheesegear]

Where's the special gear? The 2Attacks? The awesome pauldrons?

On your Special Operatives.
- Apothecary
- Veteran
- Terminator
- Deathwatch Veteran

All of which have special gear and a Deathwatch Pauldron.

I also have a feeling that Deathwatch are just 'too good' for Shadow War, and that's why Space Marines only get one...Sometimes.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm sad Shadow War only has Wytchs for Dark Eldar. Mostly because I don't like those models. Let me use Hellions! Or Warriors! But I'd love to use a Mandrake Special Operative, or an Incubi. Ooh, or a Grotesque!

The Harlequins look fun though, I might look into getting some now.

[Cheesegear]

I'm sad Shadow War only has Wytchs for Dark Eldar.

As far as I can tell GW hasn't sold a single Wych box in ~18 months since Dark Eldar/7 nerfed them into the ground. Could be that they're trying to sell models.

[lord_khaine]

I feel like Exarchs from other shrines would fit better as operatives for the Eldar; a Banshee or Scorpion to add some melee to a shooty kill team (and infiltration for the Scorpion), or a Swooping Hawk if they really want to play up the maneuverability and shootiness. Like you pointed out with the terminators, it's not like GW is trying to avoid using single operatives from large unit boxes, so why not go for the good stuff? (likely answer: all those things I just mentioned are metal/finecast and likely to be phased out eventually, so they want to stick to plastic. But still, verisimilitude = broken).

I agree completely, Autarchs are commanders, their specialty lies in coordinating the rest of the craftworld army. If you want something killed stealthily then you send a Exarch of some sort. Not a large scale leader..

There is one thing i really like by the system though, one that could be embraced for the next edition. The return of terminators saving on 2d6. I think it could be a great rule to apply to several larger units who are suposed to be especially tough. Like Carnifexes.

[deuterio12]

Well, to be honest, ethreals are not that few in numbers. they make up an entire caste.

So I'd wager its a low ranking one, probably on some diplomatic errand to a planet they attempt to subjugate (so only minimal bodyguard, as they attempt to seem peaceful) that got into trouble, rather than a planned combat mission.

I'll point out that the ethereal in kill team is important enough to get a shield generator. Codex ethereals can't get that level of bling. The Kill Watch ethereal is actually more imporant than the one deployed to spirituall lead Tau armies!

[Mystic Muse]

Gawd, after the simplicity of the Hive Guards, gluing together these Gargoyles is downright painful. I think I actually prefer pewter for that reason, if no other.

[Cheesegear]

The return of terminators saving on 2d6. I think it could be a great rule to apply to several larger units who are suposed to be especially tough. Like Carnifexes.

'Saving on 3+ on 2D6', just means 2+rr.
Rolling 2d6 for each Wound is going to be tedious if the game stays the same size as it is now.

Your Carnifex takes 4 Wounds from Autocannons. Roll 2d6 four times? Get out of here.

[deuterio12]

'Saving on 3+ on 2D6', just means 2+rr.
Rolling 2d6 for each Wound is going to be tedious if the game stays the same size as it is now.

Your Carnifex takes 4 Wounds from Autocannons. Roll 2d6 four times? Get out of here.

Actually, Autocannons roll 1d3 for how many wounds they deal now a la fantasy, so that's already extra rolls before any armor*.

On the other hand, I remember at one time Termie armor was a single d6 but could never go worst than 5+, which I believe is the "ancestor" of the invulnerable save. And invulnerable saves are still around so termie armor is probably still 2+/5++, like ghostplate is still 4+/6++.

*And lascannons deal 1d6 so a carnifex may be one-shot if it's unlucky.

[Cheesegear]

Actually, Autocannons roll 1d3 for how many wounds they deal now a la fantasy, so that's already extra rolls before any armor*.

That's not how Sigmar works. You roll Save before rolling for how many Wounds you deal.
Same as the Destroyer Table, you fail the save, then take D3 Wounds.

If Shadow War changes that, then it increases play time.

On the other hand, I remember at one time Termie armor was a single d6 but could never go worst than 5+

Sigmar has levels of 'Immune to Rend'. Tougher Infantry ignore -1, same of the better Monsters ignore -2. Bastillodons ignore Rend, full stop.
'3+ on 2D6' is fine for Shadow War, because you're never going to have more than one Terminator at a time. Once you start taking saves at the squad level, the game is going to drag.

And lascannons deal 1d6 so a carnifex may be one-shot if it's unlucky.

If it moves to common weapons being able to do D6 or 2D6 Wounds, it goes to Sigmar; Any character or Monster with <6 Wounds then becomes unusable.

[Eldan]

Old Fantasy had cannons that did D6 wounds and people still played monsters, but then, only a handful of factions had those cannons, they were rare and really unreliable.

But yeah. D6 wounds lascannons is all I'd need to stop playing my Tyranids ever again.

[lord_khaine]

Saving on 3+ on 2D6', just means 2+rr.
Rolling 2d6 for each Wound is going to be tedious if the game stays the same size as it is now.

Your Carnifex takes 4 Wounds from Autocannons. Roll 2d6 four times? Get out of here.

It only means 2+ rr in a world where there are no armor save modifications.

And the idea were as such also it should be reserved for special elite unit, so it in most cases would not be the entire army rolling 2d6, only a few select squads.

As for the tedium of rolling 2d6 four time. Its surprisingly easy to solve with a little creativity. Get 2 red dice, 2 blue dice, 2 white dice and 2 green dice.
Bang, job done, its solved with one roll.

[Cheesegear]

As for the tedium of rolling 2d6 four time. Its surprisingly easy to solve with a little creativity. Get 2 red dice, 2 blue dice, 2 white dice and 2 green dice.
Bang, job done, its solved with one roll.

Okay. That's fine for a Carnifex, which is one model, and T6 to boot, so it's not like it's going to be taking that many saves anyway.
But, if you hit Terminators, they can easily take upwards of 10 Wounds at a time. I'm not buying ten different colours of dice.

[deuterio12]

Okay. That's fine for a Carnifex, which is one model, and T6 to boot, so it's not like it's going to be taking that many saves anyway.
But, if you hit Terminators, they can easily take upwards of 10 Wounds at a time. I'm not buying ten different colours of dice.

Why are you so afraid they'll bring that particularly obscure rule back?

Again, they're keeping invulnerable saves. Invulnerable saves already are the anti-"rend" mechanic. I see no reason why terminator armor won't remain the classic 2+/5++.

In particular, it would be pretty bonkers if a few factions can take a specialist with a 2d6 save and other factions simply can't.

[boomwolf]

Besides, rend doesn't matter when you have a 2++ rerollable :P

(just a friendly reminder this kind of nonsense is a thing in this game....)

[Cheesegear]

Why are you so afraid they'll bring that particularly obscure rule back?

Because of slow play. It's a mechanic that I already know slows the game right down from having played with 20+ Sternguard shooting Gets Hot! ammo.
Something like a Strike Force Ultra would be agony to play against

I see no reason why terminator armor won't remain the classic 2+/5++

Because we know that elements of Shadow War will make it into 8th Ed., we just don't quite know which elements.
Because WILD SPECULATION.

[Wraith]

In Shadow War, the rules for armour seem to compare to the rules for 2nd Edition; Lascannons have a Save Modifier of -6, for example, which means that if saves are being taken on a single die then there's no need for anything worse than -5.

It strongly suggests that Terminators are back to 3+ on 2d6. Whether they'll do that for 40k 8th Ed. remains to be seen, of course, but it'd be far, far from the stupidest thing that they could do. My gut instinct suggests that they probably will, because now GW are "listening to their fans", who in the loudest and most prominent of cases are irredeemable grognards whose idea of "fun" is a diseased, shrivelled little thing grown bloated and gout-ridden on decades of nostalgia, rather than any real concept of what makes for a better game for everyone else.

Because of slow play.
Something like a Strike Force Ultra would be agony to play against.

Random charge distances, psychic power dice pools, changes to wound allocation and the trend of moving towards randomly generated powers/abilities/gifts/missions/objectives have all slowed the game down in the recent editions. You're right, it'd be a bad idea for them to prolong any phase of the game more than they already have done..... but that doesn't yet mean that they won't. As I said before, they're already considering the return of To Hit (Short) and (Long) modifiers, which is a horrible system that indicates exactly what sort of thing GW think people want. Multi-die saves is definitely a strong possibility, at this point.

And don't get me wrong, I do believe that Terminator Armour and other equivalents SHOULD mean more than "I need to shoot them with my tanks rather than the dudes in the tank" because that aspect of the game was fun, back in the day, and brought them more in line with the fluff. But this would not be the way to do it.

[deuterio12]

Because of slow play. It's a mechanic that I already know slows the game right down from having played with 20+ Sternguard shooting Gets Hot! ammo.
Something like a Strike Force Ultra would be agony to play against

Because we know that elements of Shadow War will make it into 8th Ed., we just don't quite know which elements.

2d6 saves aren't a part of Shadow War. Invulnerable saves are. It would be just silly to make termie armor roll 2d6 when invs are still around.

Because WILD SPECULATION.

Ok, you got me.

The truth is that each termie armor will be resolved by sacrificing a goat on the gaming table and reading the result on its entrails. Make sure to bring six goats per termie to cover all game turns. If anybody complains about the mess you can just claim it's blood for the blood god and skulls for the skull throne.

[Blackhawk748]

40k already takes 2+ hourws to play, we don't need to make it take longer. Plus it just seems really, really clunky.

[Rizhail]

2d6 saves aren't a part of Shadow War.

Oh yes they are. Last picture, bottom right: Terminator armor saves are 3+, taken on 2d6. It's the only armor type in Shadow War that gets a save against Wraithcannons and D-scythes, which have -7 armor save modifiers.

I really, really hope this is just for Shadow War. There are some neat ideas that 8th could incorporate from older editions, but that is not one of them.

[Cheesegear]

I really, really hope this is just for Shadow War.

As I said, if it's just for Shadow War, then I'm fine with it. The number of models in Terminator Armour is going to be limited to one model per Team, and only for a certain number of Factions (Space Marines, Grey Knights and IIRC Orks), and even then, those models are Special Operatives, and therefore wont even be in every game - if at all.

[deuterio12]

Oh yes they are. Last picture, bottom right: Terminator armor saves are 3+, taken on 2d6. It's the only armor type in Shadow War that gets a save against Wraithcannons and D-scythes, which have -7 armor save modifiers.

I really, really hope this is just for Shadow War. There are some neat ideas that 8th could incorporate from older editions, but that is not one of them.

... Thanks, I guess.

Now I need to go find some goats to sacrifice so GW will keep it only on Shadow war.

[bluntpencil]

On your Special Operatives.
- Apothecary
- Veteran
- Terminator
- Deathwatch Veteran

All of which have special gear and a Deathwatch Pauldron.

I also have a feeling that Deathwatch are just 'too good' for Shadow War, and that's why Space Marines only get one...Sometimes.

Yeah, I can see the argument that they're too good...

...but the issue is consistency there.

'Nids get Tyranid Warriors. Eldar get Aspect Warriors. Grey Knights get Grey Knights.

A Deathwatch Veteran Kill-Team (the teams are called Kill-Teams, dammit, that's a Deathwatch squad!) would be perfect for this scale. Give them really low model counts, whatever, but having that tiny squad of RPG Party Heroes, without support, up against aliens would be awesome. An Inquisitor and his henchmen would be amazing, too. Not overpowered, like a Space Marine Captain (Or Eldar Autarch :/ ), but a regular human with a reason to be doing things.