Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[boomwolf]

Well, I DO want them as melee walkers, sort of a distraction carnifex for my my sorcerers to get into positions and do their things.

And my scene isn't super competetive, so being merely ok and not top tier works for me.

The fact the main anti tank (other than my own tau's fusion drop spam) seems to be autocannon spam, and/or necron warriors for the glances makes the anti-glace properties of both decimator and the contemptor rather more attractive.

So under these notes-a pure melee setup, and glancing being the main threat with little to no grav around-who'd you prefer? decimator or contemptor?

[Cheesegear]

Well, I DO want them as melee walkers, sort of a distraction carnifex for my my sorcerers to get into positions and do their things.
And my scene isn't super competetive, so being merely ok and not top tier works for me.

Wow. Is your meta really that bad that Chaos Sorcerers aren't the first thing to be targeted down? If you ask me, the Sorcerers are your distractions for your Walkers.

[Drasius]

Decimator is overpriced trash. Contemptors are the same, but less bad. If you must, go the contemptor, but the Decimator has an incredibly cool model...

[Cheesegear]

Also, I really dislike the term 'distraction Carnifex', because it makes no sense. There have been, what, eleventy billion new Tyranid MCs added to the roster since Carnifexes were even playable, let alone good. The more accurate term would probably be 'Distraction Mawloc', because it actually does things, and actually is a viable target over Snap Shooting against a Hive Tyrant.

EDIT:
Soft rumours from Adepticon say that 8th Ed. will be announced - if not released - in June.

[lord_khaine]

Wow. Is your meta really that bad that Chaos Sorcerers aren't the first thing to be targeted down? If you ask me, the Sorcerers are your distractions for your Walkers.

i think you should have said that good.. it certainly sounds like a much better meta to play in than the hellish prison realm you entertain us with tales from.

Also, I really dislike the term 'distraction Carnifex', because it makes no sense. There have been, what, eleventy billion new Tyranid MCs added to the roster since Carnifexes were even playable, let alone good. The more accurate term would probably be 'Distraction Mawloc', because it actually does things, and actually is a viable target over Snap Shooting against a Hive Tyrant.

Actually thats why distraction Carnifex makes more sense. Its a distraction because it is only good if it lures people into shooting at it as it charges down the battlefield. It would lose meaning if it were a MC that should actually be prioritised.

[Cheesegear]

Actually thats why distraction Carnifex makes more sense.

I think it might fall back on my hellish prison realm;
It's not a distraction, because it sucks. No-one who knows what they're doing, is going to shoot a Carnifex over a group of say, Hive Guard or an Objective Secured Tervigon. Compared to nearly everything, a Carnifex isn't a distraction, because your opponents should know better. Because a Carnifex isn't good. It distracts from nothing, because your opponent has better things to do, or, they wipe the Carnifex in one Phase with one, single unit, and then move on with the rest of their army. Either way, it doesn't work.

The only reason that a 'Distraction Carnifex' is a thing, or even could be a thing, is if your opponents have no idea what they're doing. In which case you can probably run whatever you want.

When I think of 'distraction', I think of fire magnets;

Fateweaver (as Warlord) is a 'Distraction' to Magnus.
Magnus is a 'Distraction' to Fateweaver.
The ScreamerStar is a 'Distraction' to both.

No matter what you shoot at, you're in for pain.
Meanwhile, your opponent completely ignores your 'Distraction Carnifex' and focuses on the Tervigon that just Tyrannocyted in and started spawning ObSec Termagants.

Hive Guard are a 'distraction' for Zoanthropes.
Zoanthropes are a 'distraction' for Hive Guard.
A Hive Tyrant is a 'distraction' for both.

The way 'distraction Carnifex' as written reads to me is; "This unit sucks and I need to basically trick my opponent into shooting it. Unfortunately, if they don't shoot it because they know what they're doing; I've wasted my points and my models."

[Blackhawk748]

Distraction Carniex is a holdover term from, i wanna say 5tth ed, where the only thing it was good for was attracting bullets, cuz if you didn't shoot the freaking thing it was gonna eat someone. Then again this was the time when the only viable Nid list was Triple Trygon, so ya.

[Cheesegear]

Distraction Carniex is a holdover term from, i wanna say 5tth ed, where the only thing it was good for was attracting bullets, cuz if you didn't shoot the freaking thing it was gonna eat someone.

Again, you're using conflicting sentences. That's exactly what it doesn't mean. A Carnifex that is going to kill you is a legitimate threat (so, you have a Brood of 3, right? And probably another one), and would elevate into 'fire magent' status because your opponent has to kill it, and not by accident. So, yeah, it's from 5th Ed., when Carnifexes became garbage, and people thought they were some sort of good.

From 1d4chan - Distraction Carnifex
The short version is that you plonk a huge, scary-looking model in the middle of the table, which draws a tremendous amount of enemy gunfire, while the real threats make it up the field relatively unmolested.

I did the italics.
The Carnifex is a scary-looking model that draws fire from legitimate threats (i.e; It's a trick used against bad opponents).

[Brookshw]

I did the italics.
The Carnifex is a scary-looking model that draws fire from legitimate threats (i.e; It's a trick used against bad opponents).

Do you put all carnifexes in this category regardless of loadout?

[Grim Portent]

The term originates from the time when carni's could have a 2+ save and take more fire to kill than they were worth. A single carnifex could waddle up the board tanking a lot of shooting and letting your other units go unmolested.

When the carni lost it's 2+ and became overpriced garbage it was left banking on it's reputation and size for a while, and has since been dumped by the wayside as a devourer chassis.

Nowadays the term better applies to Tyrannofexes and Mawlocs, who are scarier both in model and in rules than carni's to lesser or greater extent, and a bit harder to kill.

[Cheesegear]

Do you put all carnifexes in this category regardless of loadout?

It's not the Carnifex that matters. You're playing Tyranids. Which means combos wrapped in another combo, with another combo just in case. No one unit in the Tyranid army performs well, on its own - save the Hive Tyrant, and that's why Tyranid players have 3 of them. What is the Carnifex standing next to? How is the Carnifex supported? Is it in a Tyrannocyte? What draws fire from the Carnifex to make sure the Carnifex lasts longer than one turn on the board? Is the Carnifex standing on a Skyshield? Next to a Venomthrope?

Everything in the Tyranid Codex is crap (except Hive Tyrants). That's why 'casuals' can't play Tyranids. Where Tyranids shine, is in the combos, and how the entire list is built as a whole, not just individual units, fighting individually. Y'know...Just like a Swarm.

You'll notice that every competitive Tyranid list, is a 'gimmick' list, built around a cohesive concept and a game plan, and barely ever deviates from that plan. What these lists do not do, is slap a Carnifex down onto the table and go 'lol, shoot this instead of my Hive Tyrant, you will definitely fall for this, because Hive Tyrants are obviously not very valuable and my Carnifex is scary.' A real Tyranid list would put down 5-6+* Dakkafexes with one or two Barbed Stranglers for Pinning, plant them on a Skyshield, and not move them all game, unless it's to Charge (a Dakkafex still has D3 Hammers of Wrath and AP2 Melee attacks). Or run 8-9* Carnifexes with Claws, with Venomthropes or Toxicrenes and run at the opponent.

* Carnifexes - like Whirlwinds and Vindicators - get better the more of them you have. One Carnifex isn't going to do ****. Neither is a single Whirlwind.

[Brookshw]

Situation depending on composition, check. I suppose one concern about shyshield dakkas is that an 18" shooting range is kinda rough, doubly so on stationary units. Think that's an issue?

[Cheesegear]

I suppose one concern about shyshield dakkas is that an 18" shooting range is kinda rough, doubly so on stationary units. Think that's an issue?

In Eternal War, yes. Both you and your opponent will castle for four turns, and hopefully something will be done on Turn 5 to draw out a winner.
In Maelstrom, no. Your opponent will come to you eventually, if not immediately.

[Forum Explorer]

Again, you're using conflicting sentences. That's exactly what it doesn't mean. A Carnifex that is going to kill you is a legitimate threat (so, you have a Brood of 3, right? And probably another one), and would elevate into 'fire magent' status because your opponent has to kill it, and not by accident. So, yeah, it's from 5th Ed., when Carnifexes became garbage, and people thought they were some sort of good.



I did the italics.
The Carnifex is a scary-looking model that draws fire from legitimate threats (i.e; It's a trick used against bad opponents).

By that definition I'd say the new Distraction Carnifex is the Deathwind Missile Launcher. It's a huge fire magnet, despite being only a single unreliable shot. Sure it's a Strength 10 AP 1 Ignores Cover Apocalyptic Blast shot, but it's only BS 3 so it can miss (I've missed with BS 5 on Apocalyptic Blasts. Frequently.), and it doesn't ignore invulnerable saves, and monstrous creatures and most vehicles will only lose 1 wound/hp respectively.

So it gets a lot of pressure to kill the thing quickly, when it likely doesn't deserve it in comparison to the rest of the units in the artillery company (such as Ignores Cover Basilisks). But it is a really scary model with the one giant missile.

[Cheesegear]

So, played some test games of Shadow War, came home with one lesson; The Bottle Test.

Now, Break Tests in Kill Team are bad enough. Fail a Leadership check and you start losing models. It starts to snowball towards the end. But, it just means that Kill Teams that can resist Break Tests (such as Marines with ATSKNF, or Necrons with Ld10 on everything) are simply better Kill Teams (and I'll give you no guesses on which the two best Codecies in Kill Team are).

Which brings us to Shadow war and auto-lose; The Bottle Test.

When 25% of your Team has been taken out, take a Leadership Test every turn. If you fail at any point, you lose. Not when you have 25% of your team left, which would make sense. But the second your Shadow Team starts taking even minor damage, they bottle out, you lose. Your models don't die, and that's helpful. But still, you auto-lose. For a campaign this is bad, for a tournament it's bad. But, if you're doing PUGs and one-offs 'cause you like Shadow War a lot, then games go very quickly.

This Bottle Test, this...Auto-lose...Regardless of Mission, means that Teams with the highest Leadership are going to be more consistent.
- Necrons
- Harlequins (yay!)
- Tyranids
These teams are going to be near the top when it comes to Shadow War, if only because they are the Teams most resistant to the condition that causes auto-loss. There will, of course, be other factors to consider (Tyranids only have a 5+ Save), but the above three are going to be strong out of the gate (i.e; For casuals). I'm sure once I sit down with the rulebook I'll have a better understanding of the game. But, currently, I'm sharing the Store's Open Copy with another seven players who all want to read it at the same time - not even the same sections, either.

EDIT: I watched Harlequins get tabled by Grey Knights. So obviously Leadership isn't everything. But the Harlequins also got pretty diced anyway.

[Eldan]

Well, that's a stupid rule. Still, nice to hear Harlequin aren't doing too bad. After being tabled Turn 2 twice with my harlies, I was convinced they'd stay display models forever.

[Brookshw]

Can someone clarify how/if skyshield landing padd are destroyable? I'm definitely confusing myself trying to sort it.

[Voidhawk]

Can someone clarify how/if skyshield landing pad are destroyable? I'm definitely confusing myself trying to sort it.

They can't be destroyed, except by something that can specifically destroy/remove terrain (such as certain Vortex weapons).

[LCP]

When 25% of your Team has been taken out, take a Leadership Test every turn. If you fail at any point, you lose. Not when you have 25% of your team left, which would make sense.

You don't think legging it when 1 in 4 of your friends is dead makes sense? In any real-world engagement that would be a horrendous casualty rate.

For a campaign this is bad

The Bottle Test (or renamed versions of it) has been in every classic skirmish game GW ever made. It's specifically designed for campaigns, so that your warband doesn't get so beat up after 1 or 2 losses that you're better off starting from scratch (unless you like the idea of a warband composed entirely of peg-legged, one-eyed, one-armed, brain-damaged fighters). I'm pretty sure I remember reading a designer article about how it evolved, back in the days when GW did that "playtesting" thing.

One thing that differs though is that those games (Necromunda, Mordheim, Gorkamorka) mostly had more uniformity between factions in terms of leadership. Necromunda you were all human gangsters (unless you were a Scavvie or a Spyrer); Gorkamorka you were all orks (unless you were a Grot or a Mutie). Mordheim had maybe the most variety but still the dynamic range of leadership was flattened compared to WFB. So I can imagine that some 40K factions might be a little out of whack when ported into the Necromunda ruleset.

[LeSwordfish]

The Bottle Test (or renamed versions of it) has been in every classic skirmish game GW ever made. It's specifically designed for campaigns, so that your warband doesn't get so beat up after 1 or 2 losses that you're better off starting from scratch (unless you like the idea of a warband composed entirely of peg-legged, one-eyed, one-armed, brain-damaged fighters). I'm pretty sure I remember reading a designer article about how it evolved, back in the days when GW did that "playtesting" thing.

It sounds far more appropriately Narrative to me than "every fight, 3/4 of your scrappy band of heroes are dead. By the next fight, they've all got up again, or been replaced by identically scrappy heroes."

[Wraith]

I played Necromunda a lot, for many years, and I will attest that bottle tests are a) a great idea to preserve the enjoyment of a campaign long term, b) the absolute easiest thing that GW have ever written that can be house-ruled to 50% if you really want to, and c) are absolutely not as much of a big deal as Cheesegear is making them out to be.

Truthfully, if often didn't come up in Necromunda as there are always objectives to play for, and it's actually quite hard to take someone Out Of Action by shooting at them. That means that the "auto win" situation usually isn't achieved until after a significant time of playing unless the dice are REALLY borked in someone's favour, since everyone only moves ~4" and it's much, much easier to remove them from play in close combat.
Similarly, you're not taking 25% casualties in a vacuum; what Cheesegear calls the Auto Win button is actually a very effective means of creating tension and making the game last LONGER as teams generally take a couple of casualties each and then start to shy away from each other, fearful that one misjudged move will leave them vulnerable to an easy kill and thus force them into a disadvantage. They start looking for opportunities to spring two-on-one ambushes on each other, creating a dangerous cat and mouse situation. Playing recklessly will sometimes bring success but ultimately will only get you so far, and if the dice are truly against you.... well, there's nothing that can solve that no matter what any of the rules say.

This is doubly so since in Necromunda, armour saves of any kind were a rare and unexpected thing; they never got better than 4+, and even that came with some harsh disadvantages. Shadow War sees everyone with armour, so casualties are still ~50% less likely again.

And even after all that, you're not immediately out of the game but on borrowed time - I can tell you a dozen stories of a gang taking bottle tests for turn after turn, only to score one lucky hit and their opponent immediately turn tail and flee for a stunning and hilarious upset, or to snag the objective with their last couple of brutalised dudes and snatch victory through blood and sacrifice. Both situations make excellent war-stories; going into the game with an "it's auto win and thus always broken" mentality is the most pessimistic and least true statement you could make.

With regards to "more consistent" teams having an advantage, note also that the high-LD teams are, as expected, the ones with comparably few models? Grey Knights are LD10 and Fearless; they can have, what.... 6 dudes? Compare to Genestealer Cult or Chaos with their cheap Cultists, or Orks who apparently get extra guys in some games for free/at a significant discount? It's no difference to Spyrers versus Scavvies in the original Necromunda, and it worked absolutely fine.

Sure, once in a while you'll roll badly and it'll cost you a game that you probably should have won. Please name me a Games Workshop product where that ISN'T true, though?

[Cheesegear]

Can someone clarify how/if skyshield landing padd are destroyable?

They aren't.

You don't think legging it when 1 in 4 of your friends is dead makes sense? In any real-world engagement that would be a horrendous casualty rate.

This isn't the real world, this is the 41st Millenium. In Necromunda, losing 1 in 4 of your gang buddies would terrify you. Unfortunately, these are Kill Teams of proper warriors, who have been sent into the Underhive expecting to lose a few dudes.

So I can imagine that some 40K factions might be a little out of whack when ported into the Necromunda ruleset.

That's what I've figured out after a few games. Shadow War is not Necromunda. It just looks like it.

c) are absolutely not as much of a big deal as Cheesegear is making them out to be.

If you're running a campaign? Serving free wins to your opponents is not great.

Truthfully, if often didn't come up in Necromunda as there are always objectives to play for, and it's actually quite hard to take someone Out Of Action by shooting at them.

Shadow War is not Necromunda. The guns are a lot better.

Similarly, you're not taking 25% casualties in a vacuum; what Cheesegear calls the Auto Win button is actually a very effective means of creating tension and making the game last LONGER as teams generally take a couple of casualties each and then start to shy away from each other

Castling for any amount of turns is automatically bad game design.

They start looking for opportunities to spring two-on-one ambushes on each other, creating a dangerous cat and mouse situation.

That would be great if shooting attacks sucked.

Shadow War sees everyone with armour, so casualties are still ~50% less likely again.

Nope, because Rend is common.

Both situations make excellent war-stories; going into the game with an "it's auto win and thus always broken" mentality is the most pessimistic and least true statement you could make.

That's good then, because that isn't what I said. What I said was, Leadership will always be a consideration for any Shadow Team, and Teams with high Leadership will have an intrinsic advantage. Same as in Kill Team, where certain Teams don't have to worry about a certain mechanic in the game - that causes you to lose.

Grey Knights are LD10 and Fearless; they can have, what.... 6 dudes?

Grey Knights are Ld9 on the Leader - otherwise Ld8 - only and still have to take Bottle Tests. They can have a maximum of five dudes.

Compare to Genestealer Cult or Chaos with their cheap Cultists, or Orks who apparently get extra guys in some games for free/at a significant discount?

Only in one Mission, and then half the Teams I've read means The Raid mechanic doesn't work right.

[Blackhawk748]

In HoR Kill Team its called a Break Test and its made when you lose 50% of your team with your Team Leaders Ld. Works fairly well as most leaders are running around with a 8 or 9 Ld and only a few have 10.

[Drasius]

I played a game with our blackshirt on wednesday to try and learn some of the rules and yesterday was games night so there were a fair few games played then as well. The Harlequin team had 4 models, the GK team had 3, my CSM had 5 marines, another CSM had I think 2 marines and a bunch of cultists, while a marine team had 5 scouts and a bunch of wargear.

Harlequins are very good, as are GK, but if you get even 1 solid hit on them, not only is it a large portion of your force down, it's also a bottle test. Our undivided CSM player got stuck with bad deployment conditions, lost a couple of guys and bottled out first turn before he even moved 1 game because he rolled an 11 for Ld. The GK Psylencer is sustained fire 3 (so, 3d3 shots) and has a 2+ (on 2d6) ammo roll and can ignore cover with astral aim. That was responsible for many, many kills.

I found that the red dot sight on bolters was pretty handy as being effectively BS5 is great, especially when Harlequins who ran and are in low cover are at -3 to be hit! While MoT is going to be better than normal since cover saves aren't a thing and most stuff has a decent rend value, I suspect that MoN will be the best choice as always since T5 is no joke, especially when most things are str4, so being wounded on 5's or 6's is really handy.

Combat is wildly skewed with my aspiring champ having to get very lucky to beat even a new recruit harlequin to the point where I don't think I'll be buying him BP/Chainsword and just give him a bolter like everyone else and grab camo gear or a gunner with the saved points. Speaking of combat, I'm not a fan of the system at all. Not just because it takes forever to work out, but because it's such a forgone conclusion that it's almost pointless to roll and the other side doesn't get to do anything. Even when it was a token effort, I liked seeing guardsmen roll their 1 attack and take down a terminator on the odd occassion. That 1/36 chance to kill a termie in CC was at least some hope instead of not even getting to attack.

Edit: Oh, and fear is now a thing since only marines are immune and they're no longer more than half the armies you see, so that's nice.

[Cheesegear]

The Harlequin team had 4 models, the GK team had 3

GKs are silly strong, especially guys with the Falchions (Falchions have a use!). If you don't shoot a GK with Falchions, he can solo your entire team.

Harlequins are very good, as are GK, but if you get even 1 solid hit on them, not only is it a large portion of your force down, it's also a bottle test.

The GK vs. Harlies game I referred to had the GKs taking Bottle Tests every turn (sweating every time), but as long as the GKs made it into Melee, they walked through the Eldar scum.

Our undivided CSM player got stuck with bad deployment conditions, lost a couple of guys and bottled out first turn before he even moved

Saw that happen, too.

The GK Psylencer is sustained fire 3 (so, 3d3 shots) and has a 2+ (on 2d6) ammo roll and can ignore cover with astral aim. That was responsible for many, many kills. I found that the red dot sight on bolters was pretty handy as being effectively BS5 is great, especially when Harlequins who ran and are in low cover are at -3 to be hit!

Nah man. People who played Necromunda told me shooting was bad and a waste of time (almost like the changing of the Factions involved changed the game entirely).
Except while shooting works fairly well, Melee works even better...

Speaking of combat, I'm not a fan of the system at all. Not just because it takes forever to work out, but because it's such a forgone conclusion that it's almost pointless to roll and the other side doesn't get to do anything.

...Unless you're a GK who gets to Parry twice.
Other than that, though, Melee combat is both far too complex and also too simple at the same time.

[Drasius]

...Unless you're a GK who gets to Parry twice.
Other than that, though, Melee combat is both far too complex and also too simple at the same time.

Anyone who has 2 sword type weapons can parry twice and IIRC, everyone who isn't GK starts with a combat blade [or similar] so anyone can do the same for relatively minimal cost by buying a melee weapons. Besides, just wait until that GK meets a wych whose weapons can't be parried and they're rocking higher init, higher move and a 4++ in CC and if they're feeling really saucy, taking the shardnet & impaler on a bloodbride so that silly old GK can't even use his fancy falchions at all (and since he didn't bother to bring a knife eaither, he's effectively disarmed). Lulzy.

[Voidhawk]

Melee is kind of hilarious in Shadowwar, because for the first time in the game's history Weapon Skill is the god stat. And having more than about 4 attacks is often a downside, because every 1 you roll penalises you.

And Grey Knights are inevitably OP, as usual, since they've been that way in basically every small-squad version of 40k that anyone has ever made. It took the Heralds of Ruin guys about 5 attempts before they were beatable. Heavy armour, psychic powers, and everyone with special weapons is just too much anyone to deal with using only a single troops unit.

[Cheesegear]

everyone who isn't GK starts with a combat blade [or similar]

Everyone starts with a Combat Knife. Knives can't Parry.

Besides, just wait until that GK meets a wych whose weapons can't be parried and they're rocking higher init

At which point you fall back on 'Combat is a forgone conclusion'. You should already know who has won combat before you even roll a dice. When you see a combat god like a Falchion GK or Wych, you basically just shoot them to death. Or, try to. Grey Knights don't have Camo Cloaks. It should be okay.

Melee is kind of hilarious in Shadowwar, because for the first time in the game's history Weapon Skill is the god stat.

It's getting to combat that's difficult. You're looking to hug cover for a while, while your squadmates force Pinning. But, then again, a whole bunch of armies can recover from Pinning without even trying.

And Grey Knights are inevitably OP, as usual, since they've been that way in basically every small-squad version of 40k that anyone has ever made.

I think Grey Knights are beatable, but I think they'll be the baseline. Can your list beat Grey Knights? If it can't, don't even bother. Because every other list that can beat GKs, is going to roflstomp over everything else.

[Brookshw]

I'm trying to figure out how much protection/survivability I can pile onto a barbed hierodule and wanted to see if anyone had any additional suggestions. Requirements: tyranids faction only w/ fortification content (I only have the stronghold book handy, not the update so I'm unsure what may have changed).

Tossing the BH on a skyshield landing pad w/ a venomthrope nearby seems like a no brainer, but can I push that cover save to 2+? For example, add a barricade and place it on the the pad itself? I'm not sure if it's legal, but I don't know of anything that prohibits it.

Suggestions welcome.

[Drasius]

I'm trying to figure out how much protection/survivability I can pile onto a barbed hierodule and wanted to see if anyone had any additional suggestions. Requirements: tyranids faction only w/ fortification content (I only have the stronghold book handy, not the update so I'm unsure what may have changed).

Tossing the BH on a skyshield landing pad w/ a venomthrope nearby seems like a no brainer, but can I push that cover save to 2+? For example, add a barricade and place it on the the pad itself? I'm not sure if it's legal, but I don't know of anything that prohibits it.

Suggestions welcome.

Skyshield gives a 4++, Venomthrope gives shrouded (which is +2 to cover saves). Given the new MC & Terrain rules (you have to be at least 25% obscured to get a cover save) is the hero-dude going to get any benefit from the 'thrope?

If you just want to cover camp, then if an Aegis can get you to 25% (IIRC, it can't), that plus a 'thrope gives you a 2+ cover, but cover saves really don't mean much these days. Beyond that, any intervening models should still give you a 5+, which can then be boosted to a 3+ cover with the Venom. Roll for night fighting and take your 50/50 shot for a 2+ cover first turn? Add Catalyst(?) from a friendly flyrant (or Zoey) for FNP if it doesn't already have that from being FW.