Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[Cheesegear]

Nintendo Switch - $469.95
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - $89.95
(Prices from EB Games, 8.3.2017)

Australia tax, obviously. But we have the Australia tax on 40K as well, so it'll cancel out.
So, let's say that I have $560 Australian Dollarydoos, which is what I would have spent on a Switch if I gave a ****.

As a personal example, I want to start...I don't know...Tau.

$83 - Codex
$140 - Start Collecting! Tau Empire
$140 - Start Collecting! Tau Empire
$90 - Riptide
$110 - Devilfish (x2)

$563.
For hobby purposes, drop the two Devilfish at the end, build your Breachers as Fire Warriors, buy some Templates and Paints. A softcover rulebook on eBay goes for $20-30.

Every few months, you'd want to buy a $90 game for your Switch, buy a $90 kit instead. Because Riptides are $90, and you know you want need three Riptides, because, yes, you are that guy.

That's my point.

[Forum Explorer]

The BA have the BAd times:

Spoiler

Show

http://astropate.blogspot.com.au/201...manzo.html?m=1

"As usual, every few months we can see several future Black Library releases on some online bookstores. Among various reprint and already announced books, one of them stands out. I'm talking about The Devastation of Baal.
This novel by Guy Haley, whose paperback release is scheduled for 28/11/2017, definitely draws attention because of the events it talks about. It's set after the Cryptus campaign recounted in Shield of Baal, but also occurs after Gathering Storm. The synopsis, featured on some sites, says:

The popular Space Marine Battles series is relaunched with an epic novel that sees the whole Blood Angels Chapter in action, fighting a desperate rearguard battle to defend their home world from the predations of the tyranid hive fleet Leviathan.

After a brutal campaign in the Cryptus System fighting the alien tyranids, Lord Dante returns to Baal to marshal the entire Blood Angels Chapter and their Successors against Hive Fleet Leviathan. Thus begins the greatest conflict in the history of the sons of Sanguinius. Despite a valiant battle in the void around Baal, the Blood Angels are unable to stop the tyranids drawing ever closer, but their petitions for reinforcements are met with dread news. The Cadian Gate, the Imperium’s most stalwart bastion against Chaos, has fallen. In their darkest hour, no help will reach the beleaguered Dante and his warriors. Is this truly then the Time of Ending?

This is the first story of which we have a certain detail: it's set after Gathering Storm. Some other novels that will come out this year and of which we know the plot may be too, but we have the absolute certainty about this one. After Shield of Baal, three Blood Angels companies (1st, 2nd and 5th) joined the Diamor Campaign recounted in Traitor's Hate and Angel's Blade, during which the 5th Company has completely succumbed to the Black Rage because of the Black Legion. Subsequently, the remaining Blood Angels departed to reach Baal and defend it from the arrival of the Tyranids. In this novel the Tyranids arrived and who knows what will become of the Baal system? Will it be consumed? Some characters will die? The Golden Sarcophagus will be taken to safety?
Who knows..."

You know as much as I like the Blood Angels, I wouldn't really be sad if they bit the dust. And with the first Gathering Storm killing off Sgt. Pell and effectively killing off Creed (trapped as a museum piece), I wouldn't be surprised if they started clearing out some of the excessive characters that have built up over the years. Or factions for that matter. (I have high hopes for Abbadon dying)

Nintendo Switch - $469.95
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - $89.95
(Prices from EB Games, 8.3.2017)

Australia tax, obviously. But we have the Australia tax on 40K as well, so it'll cancel out.
So, let's say that I have $560 Australian Dollarydoos, which is what I would have spent on a Switch if I gave a ****.

As a personal example, I want to start...I don't know...Tau.

$83 - Codex
$140 - Start Collecting! Tau Empire
$140 - Start Collecting! Tau Empire
$90 - Riptide
$110 - Devilfish (x2)

$563.
For hobby purposes, drop the two Devilfish at the end, build your Breachers as Fire Warriors, buy some Templates and Paints. A softcover rulebook on eBay goes for $20-30.

Every few months, you'd want to buy a $90 game for your Switch, buy a $90 kit instead. Because Riptides are $90, and you know you want need three Riptides, because, yes, you are that guy.

That's my point.

Added benefit? The Switch will be obsolete in less then a decade. Breath of the Wild will likely be completed once or twice. For 40K? I'm still using the models I got some 15 years ago when I started playing and I still will be using them for the foreseeable future.

[LeSwordfish]

You know as much as I like the Blood Angels, I wouldn't really be sad if they bit the dust. And with the first Gathering Storm killing off Sgt. Pell and effectively killing off Creed (trapped as a museum piece), I wouldn't be surprised if they started clearing out some of the excessive characters that have built up over the years. Or factions for that matter. (I have high hopes for Abbadon dying)

I'd hope Creed stays: he's been a character in the backstory for a long time. (In fact, personally I suspect that they're storing him for a Triumvirate later - Trazyn seems to have a Primarch locked up too, so maybe we'll see Creed, Dorn/Vulkan/Whoever, and someone else.)

[Drasius]

Nintendo Switch - $469.95
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - $89.95
(Prices from EB Games, 8.3.2017)

Australia tax, obviously. But we have the Australia tax on 40K as well, so it'll cancel out.
So, let's say that I have $560 Australian Dollarydoos, which is what I would have spent on a Switch if I gave a ****.

As a personal example, I want to start...I don't know...Tau.

$83 - Codex
$140 - Start Collecting! Tau Empire
$140 - Start Collecting! Tau Empire
$90 - Riptide
$110 - Devilfish (x2)

$563.
For hobby purposes, drop the two Devilfish at the end, build your Breachers as Fire Warriors, buy some Templates and Paints. A softcover rulebook on eBay goes for $20-30.

Every few months, you'd want to buy a $90 game for your Switch, buy a $90 kit instead. Because Riptides are $90, and you know you want need three Riptides, because, yes, you are that guy.

That's my point.

Gets even better if you're more worried about getting an army started than needing to support your local store since it's significantly easier to find 20-25% discounts on 40k stuff from online retailers than it is to find the same discounts on consoles and games (IIRC). That's an easy source of cash for templates and paints/brushes.

Also, speaking of breachers, I've found they're a one use only sort of thing. They get out of their fish, delete something and then get deleted in turn. If I was to run, say, 6 units of them instead, would they still be one use only or do you suddenly have threat overload sufficient to get back in your fish and do it again?

Spoiler

Show

100 - Darkstrider
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
100 - 2x Pirahnas, 2x Fusion
100 - 2x Pirahnas, 2x Fusion
100 - 2x Pirahnas, 2x Fusion
115 - 1x Skyray
115 - 1x Skyray
115 - 1x Skyray

1741

Much Mech, Very Armour.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'd hope Creed stays: he's been a character in the backstory for a long time. (In fact, personally I suspect that they're storing him for a Triumvirate later - Trazyn seems to have a Primarch locked up too, so maybe we'll see Creed, Dorn/Vulkan/Whoever, and someone else.)

It does seem possible that a Trazyn's Collection Triumvirate could be a thing. He's got Creed and Vulkan, so whatever the third ends up being there (doesn't he have an Inquisitor as well?) could be the latest Deus Machina³ for the Imperium. It would even be kind of cool if they got some Necron goodies to use (Creed could use something, though I'd imagine he'd be the force multiplier there).

Spoiler: Heresy Awaits Ye Here

Show

What if Trazyn uploads Creed's brain to make a Necron coordinating central computer thing. . . which then subtly begins to work against them from the inside . . .

[Gauntlet]

The Triumvirate could also just be an updated Trazyn, Creed and Vulkan.

[Knaight]

Nintendo Switch - $469.95
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - $89.95
(Prices from EB Games, 8.3.2017)

Computer you already own for things other than gaming: Effectively $0.
Buying a humble indie bundle every couple of months: $3/month.

There's ways to make videogames as expensive as WH40K (and I'd argue that videogames are another fairly expensive hobby anyways), but that's not the default. WH40K has a steep entry price, and while it's cheaper than something like sailing or yachting it's on the expensive end for normal people.

[Cheesegear]

WH40K has a steep entry price, and while it's cheaper than something like sailing or yachting it's on the expensive end for normal people.

Not my point.
My point is, if you're going to be spending money anyway, 40K is about as expensive as other things.
If you're not going to be spending money, then it doesn't matter, and your point is moot, because you weren't going to spend that much money anyway.

[Knaight]

Not my point.
My point is, if you're going to be spending money anyway, 40K is about as expensive as other things.
If you're not going to be spending money, then it doesn't matter, and your point is moot, because you weren't going to spend that much money anyway.

Other than the numerous things where you need to spend money, but less. I make and use slings, and for a while I was really into it. That meant that every so often I'd be buying fibers of some sort to see how I liked them - a few hundred feet of sisal and cotton, a few thousand of nylon, a few thousand of jute. There's leather and leatherworking tools for those who favor that side, there's clay and concrete and lead for people who want to make ammunition, etc. Supplies need occasional replacement, there's often a new tool to buy or make (sure it starts with some scissors, but then there's the leatherpunch, then there's when you get into making custom looms). It never gets anywhere near as expensive as WH40K though, because it's not an expensive hobby. It costs more than most other hobbies that involve spending money do.

[Gauntlet]

On the other hand, this is a forum for gaming. The other hobbies that are reasonably likely to be represented in viewers of the thread are something like:

Tabletop RPGs (Cheaper on average, for sure)
Video Games (Varies, depending on generation and whether you include the computer / console / TV or not)
MTG / Card games (Roughly equivalent if you want to be competitive, cheaper if you don't want to)
Other tabletop miniatures games (About the same)

I'd say that 40K isn't much of an outlier in terms of the cost of the hobby compared to these, and these hobbies are what it's most appropriate to be comparing to since they are the most likely hobbies of the people who browse this forum.

[LeSwordfish]

I mean, it's not like it says "yeah it's cheap", it says "yeah it's cheap, will cost you $X amount." If people disagree with that summary then fine, but it is giving sample figures.

[Brookshw]

We may get lucky and see what happens when a Tyranid fleet consumes the remains of a Primarch.

Sounds like a recipe for a non-forgeworld super-heavy!

[Cheesegear]

Other than the numerous things where you need to spend money...

{Self-Scrubbed}

People can spend their money how they want. If they want to spend it on 40K, it's basically like buying the current game console.
If neither of those things appeal to you, fine.
This is a gaming forum, so that's a metric that people can understand.

Many hobbies are even cheap-as-free!
Except this is a 40K Thread. So we're going to talk about 40K.

[Hootman]

Speaking of 40k: CG, you mentioned something in a recent discussion about Orks (and Deldar, I believe) being in a relative mono-build from a competitive perspective. Would you mind outlining that build for me, so I can see where I disagree, if I do? I have what I feel is a fairly unconventional style when it comes to my greenskins, and I'd like to see how far off "standard practice" I am.

[Cheesegear]

Would you mind outlining that build for me, so I can see where I disagree, if I do? I have what I feel is a fairly unconventional style when it comes to my greenskins, and I'd like to see how far off "standard practice" I am.

Something like this.
Alternatively, the MFD from Waaagh! Ghazgkull has found a moderate amount of success. I say only 'moderate' because it actually is very easy to counter by the better Codecies, but the lower tiered Codecies have a tough time against it.
Stompa with a bajillion Mekboys inside.
I understand that the Deff Dredd Mob is about as effective as the MFD. It wins some, it loses some.
In Eternal War the 15+ Fearless Meganobz Formation finds a lot of success, especially in the Battlewagons.
Deffkoptas and Warbuggies are hugely effective. Unfortunately, they're near-impossible to get, and the Warbuggy model sucks, which means making your own.
In any Ork list, if you don't have minimum of like, four HQs, you're doing it wrong. Full stop. Mogrok's Bossboyz comes with 5 HQs that you actually kind of want. The only downside to the Formation is that a Warboss can't be your Warlord which means no Waaagh!-ing, except if you build around that (e.g; Go full shooty where you don't want to be in Melee anyway), you'll be fine.

Necron Deathbringer Flights and Chaos Marine Heldrake Terror Packs plug a vital hole in your army...For everything else there's Mek Guns.

Basically you want to run anything except a ton of Boyz (which basically means that most people who want to play Orks, are not going to want to play them competitively), and if you are running a ton of Boyz, you want the MFD, which isn't even that good.

[Blackhawk748]

Something like this.
Alternatively, the MFD from Waaagh! Ghazgkull has found a moderate amount of success. I say only 'moderate' because it actually is very easy to counter by the better Codecies, but the lower tiered Codecies have a tough time against it.
Stompa with a bajillion Mekboys inside.
I understand that the Deff Dredd Mob is about as effective as the MFD. It wins some, it loses some.
In Eternal War the 15+ Fearless Meganobz Formation finds a lot of success, especially in the Battlewagons.
Deffkoptas and Warbuggies are hugely effective. Unfortunately, they're near-impossible to get, and the Warbuggy model sucks, which means making your own.
In any Ork list, if you don't have minimum of like, four HQs, you're doing it wrong. Full stop. Mogrok's Bossboyz comes with 5 HQs that you actually kind of want. The only downside to the Formation is that a Warboss can't be your Warlord which means no Waaagh!-ing, except if you build around that (e.g; Go full shooty where you don't want to be in Melee anyway), you'll be fine.

Necron Deathbringer Flights and Chaos Marine Heldrake Terror Packs plug a vital hole in your army...For everything else there's Mek Guns.

Basically you want to run anything except a ton of Boyz (which basically means that most people who want to play Orks, are not going to want to play them competitively), and if you are running a ton of Boyz, you want the MFD, which isn't even that good.

If you want Warbuggies go look around for Mantic's Marauder Trikes and Quads. They look nice, and are pretty cheap.

[Voidhawk]

Also, speaking of breachers, I've found they're a one use only sort of thing. They get out of their fish, delete something and then get deleted in turn. If I was to run, say, 6 units of them instead, would they still be one use only or do you suddenly have threat overload sufficient to get back in your fish and do it again?

Spoiler

Show

100 - Darkstrider
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
166 - 9x Breachers, Fish, Sensor Spines
100 - 2x Pirahnas, 2x Fusion
100 - 2x Pirahnas, 2x Fusion
100 - 2x Pirahnas, 2x Fusion
115 - 1x Skyray
115 - 1x Skyray
115 - 1x Skyray

1741

Much Mech, Very Armour.

The weak point in that list looks to be AV14 or high toughness with 2+ armour. Blow up the Pirahnas first, and suddenly there's not much left that can hurt big things. A knight would do many nasty things to it. Would absolutely shred an elite infantry based list though.

[Brookshw]

If you want Warbuggies go look around for Mantic's Marauder Trikes and Quads. They look nice, and are pretty cheap.

Damn, those do look nice. Especially compared to the current model.

[Blackhawk748]

Damn, those do look nice. Especially compared to the current model.

Thus why i have 3 of them. I also bought the Marauder starter set, which i think still has some floating about the interent and the troops in there make nice Slugga Boyz and Tankbustas, not much for customization, but you cant have everything.

[Drasius]

Victrix Guard


Who cares, no drop pods and no rhinos means that sternguard are a tax and the boat and his honour guard are footslogging across the board. The only way you might get some use is jump pack VV's, but even then they're still just assault marines and will die to small arms fire before they get to combat. Terrible formation.

[Bobby Baratheon]

You can use them as meatshields for Guilliman, though, right? My understanding is that he can't join units to get LOS normally, so you could use them for that. It'd be extremely inefficient, but hey it's something.

[Blackhawk748]

You can use them as meatshields for Guilliman, though, right? My understanding is that he can't join units to get LOS normally, so you could use them for that. It'd be extremely inefficient, but hey it's something.

You also need Cato "Im lame as Hell" Sicarius, so even more points dumped into a very bad formation.

[Bobby Baratheon]

You also need Cato "Im lame as Hell" Sicarius, so even more points dumped into a very bad formation.

Oh it's definitely a waste. Cato's in game deaths should be less along the lines of heroic sacrifice and more along the lines of "a grot got lucky".

[Saambell]

Oh it's definitely a waste. Cato's in game deaths should be less along the lines of heroic sacrifice and more along the lines of "a grot got lucky".

Or "blew himself up with that stupid plasma gun of his".

[Forum Explorer]

So someone offered to sell me their Guard army for 400$. It contains a massive amount of stuff, so I should be able to put this list together pretty easy if I accept his offer.

Spoiler: 1850 Artillary/Mechanized

Show

Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company

Company Command Squad with Vox caster, with Laurels of Command: 90
Chimera: 65

Enginseer: 40

3 Basilisks: 375

3 Wyverns: 195

Deathstrike Missile: 160

Emperor's Blade Assault Company

Company Command Squad with vox Caster: 65
Chimera: 65

Veterans with Vox caster, Carapace Armor, with 3 Melta guns: 110
Chimera: 65

Veterans with Vox caster, Carapace Armor, with 3 Melta guns: 110
Chimera: 65

Veterans with Vox caster, Carapace Armor, with 3 Melta guns: 110
Chimera: 65

Banewolf with Dozerblades: 135

Banewolf with Dozerblades: 135

Total: 1850

Though I am worried about the complete lack of anti-air besides lots of multilasers.

Also I'm not sure about the Banewolves. Of Hellhounds, Banewolves, and Devil Dogs, which would you recommend?

[LeSwordfish]

So the Fallen have neither ATSKNF or Infiltrate, then? Prediction: they're just markless chaos chosen and every bit as trash as that sounds. In fact, no, prediction: they're markless chaos chosen who can only take two special weapons, and so not even very useful in the formation.

Cypher himself looks pretty decent though - he puts out a fair bit of Str7Ap2 in close-combat at Init 8, and can fire each of his pistols twice.

[Voidhawk]

So someone offered to sell me their Guard army for 400$. It contains a massive amount of stuff, so I should be able to put this list together pretty easy if I accept his offer.

Spoiler: 1850 Artillary/Mechanized

Show

Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company

Company Command Squad with Vox caster, with Laurels of Command: 90
Chimera: 65

Enginseer: 40

3 Basilisks: 375

3 Wyverns: 195

Deathstrike Missile: 160

Emperor's Blade Assault Company

Company Command Squad with vox Caster: 65
Chimera: 65

Veterans with Vox caster, Carapace Armor, with 3 Melta guns: 110
Chimera: 65

Veterans with Vox caster, Carapace Armor, with 3 Melta guns: 110
Chimera: 65

Veterans with Vox caster, Carapace Armor, with 3 Melta guns: 110
Chimera: 65

Banewolf with Dozerblades: 135

Banewolf with Dozerblades: 135

Total: 1850

Though I am worried about the complete lack of anti-air besides lots of multilasers.

Also I'm not sure about the Banewolves. Of Hellhounds, Banewolves, and Devil Dogs, which would you recommend?

The Laurels of Command only affect infantry, so I'm guessing you meant to put them on the Assault Company CCS, rather than the Artillery one? Also, the Laurels only take effect when the CCS is outside its chimera, and the chance of that occurring without immediately dying to gunfire/assault/exploding chimera/stiff-breeze is pretty low (especially without carapace or a medic). Perhaps the 25pts would be better spent elsewhere?

Are those artillery pieces fixed, or can they swap between types at all? The Emp's Wrath is great because it lets you hand out Twin-linked and Ignores Cover to your artillery. Wyverns are great because they come stock with twin-linked and ignores cover: the formation doesn't do anything for them. But they're already good (and cheap!), so it's not much of a downside.

Deathstrikes never get to fire, because the enemy will always shoot them immediately. Of course if all you want is a Distraction Carnifex that's fine. But with only AV12 it won't exactly last long. A Manticore will also get shot alot, but might at least get to fire on turn 1.

I've found an Artillery CCS does quite well with Volkov's Cane: it's only 10pts and reduces the chance of failing to order your basilisk parking lot to 1/36.

When it comes to anti-air, Hydra's are pretty bad (they don't have interceptor, and can't hurt ground targets) and would use up a slot in your Emp Wrath formation. So that leaves as options either an aegis+quad-gun or Valks/Vendettas. Which would mean either an additional CAD, an Aerial Spear, or an attached Militarum Tempestus detachment. All of which are pretty big investments in terms of both points and money. It's probably better to just ignore the aerial game and focus on blowing your opponent off objectives.

[Drasius]

So the Fallen have neither ATSKNF or Infiltrate, then? Prediction: they're just markless chaos chosen and every bit as trash as that sounds. In fact, no, prediction: they're markless chaos chosen who can only take two special weapons, and so not even very useful in the formation.

Cypher himself looks pretty decent though - he puts out a fair bit of Str7Ap2 in close-combat at Init 8, and can fire each of his pistols twice.

The formation gives them infiltrate. At least it looks like Cyphers -1 ld penalty for the actual warlord is gone though, so I guess that's something.

[LeSwordfish]

Cypher's rules are up on BOLS. That rule is still there.

If the formation gives the Fallen Infiltrate, presumably they don't have it already.

[Forum Explorer]

The Laurels of Command only effect infantry, so I'm guessing you meant to put them on the Assault Company CCS, rather than the Artillery one? Also, the Laurels only take effect when the CCS is outside its chimera, and the chance of that occurring without immediately dying to gunfire/assault/exploding chimera/stiff-breeze is pretty low (especially without carapace or a medic). Perhaps the 25pts would be better spent elsewhere?

Are those artillery pieces fixed, or can they swap between types at all? The Emp's Wrath is great because it lets you hand out Twin-linked and Ignores Cover to your artillery. Wyverns are great because they come stock with twin-linked and ignores cover: the formation doesn't do anything for them. But they're already good (and cheap!), so it's not much of a downside.

Deathstrikes never get to fire, because the enemy will always shoot them immediately. Of course if all you want is a Distraction Carnifex that's fine. But with only AV12 it won't exactly last long. A Manticore will also get shot alot, but might at least get to fire on turn 1.

I've found an Artillery CCS does quite well with Volkov's Cane: it's only 10pts and reduces the chance of failing to order your basilisk parking lot to 1/36.

When it comes to anti-air, Hydra's are pretty bad (they don't have interceptor, and can't hurt ground targets) and would use up a slot in your Emp Wrath formation. So that leaves as options either an aegis+quad-gun or Valks/Vendettas. Which would mean either an additional CAD, an Aerial Spear, or an attached Militarum Tempestus detachment. All of which are pretty big investments in terms of both points and money. It's probably better to just ignore the aerial game and focus on blowing your opponent off objectives.

Whoops, meant to write down Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius. They are both 25 points, but the Auto-Reliquary makes any double result in Inspired Tactics. Volkov's Cane is better though, I'll switch it to that.

I could swap them to Hydras, but then I wouldn't have Wyverns at all. I don't think I can afford to take a CAD without massive changes.

True. And the Manticore is only 10 points more. And it is possible to miss with a Deathstrike missile. I've missed with Apocalyptic Blasts before. On the other hand, literally nuking someone could be very satisfying. I'll think about it. (If the guy in question has a Manticore, but no Deathstrike, that'll settle it). Also I could give the Manticore orders as well.

Actually, there is an Imperial Agents formation that is a single Valkyrie. And it would get to reroll reserves as well. Only 1 Lascannon for guns, and Missile Pods (because Ordnance is stupid), so it's anti-air isn't great. I could pay for Heavy Bolters, but then it's getting pricey, and it's still not good at taking out enemy Flyers.