Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[Cheesegear]

You also need Cato "Im lame as Hell" Sicarius, so even more points dumped into a very bad formation.

Sicarius is useful in a Reserve-heavy army that uses Tactical Squads. That is, a Battle Demi-Company (or full Gladius) in Drop Pods or Rhinos. Which is good, because Sicarius can take the role of the Captain for the 'Company. If you run an Ultramarines' Demi-Company or Gladius (which you totally wouldn't because how come you're not playing White Scars?), Sicarius is actually almost an auto-include. Especially if you're running a single Demi-Company and filling the Command slot with Tigurius' Conclave. Which you would do, if you played Ultramarines, and not White Scars.
Sicarius gives you re-rolls to Reserves, and Tigurius gives +1 to Reserves in his Detachment only. Remembering that the entire Gladius counts as a single Detachment. Which means that Super-Friends Sicarius+Tigurius is going to give you 2+ re-rollable Reserves, with Objective Secured Drop Pods (that may or may not be free, even).

Sicarius has a use. It's in Drop Pod armies. Ultramarines should be taking him almost every game because Battle Demi-Companies are for winners, and the Gladius is one of the winning lists. Unfortunately, Sicarius is 'boring' and 'lame', so even Ultramarine players don't even take him, even though they should.

Where Sicarius absolutely does not belong is in a Formation with no Tactical Squads and no access to Drop Pods (i.e; Reserves).

Prediction: they're just markless chaos chosen and every bit as trash as that sounds.

Prediction; They're a copy-paste job of the existing Fallen Champions Formation, with a name change.

[Hootman]

You know what? I've been complaining to my Marine-playing buddy recently about how Orks haven't really gotten any formation love, while Marines have like 9 books dedicated to them.......but if these leaks are indicative of the level of stuff I'd get, Marines can bloody well keep it. I'll just stick to CADs.

[LeSwordfish]

Fallen rules are indeed out. They're Chaos Chosen without the Chaos, for 100 points for five. Those of you who had "lazily change nothing", you were right - I will accept that my prediction of "make things worse" was wrong.

[Grim Portent]

Fallen rules are indeed out. They're Chaos Chosen without the Chaos, for 100 points for five. Those of you who had "lazily change nothing", you were right - I will accept that my prediction of "make things worse" was wrong.

Unless they have access to some extra wargear options that is worse than actual Chosen since they're 90 points for 5 in the Chaos codex.

[Theodoric]

Unless they have access to some extra wargear options that is worse than actual Chosen since they're 90 points for 5 in the Chaos codex.

Chosen have Ld9 while Fallen have Ld10. Bump it up with Veterans of the Long War at 2 pts each and they're exactly even points-wise and stat-wise.

Except, of course, for the fact that any Chaos army can get that for free. Seriously, GW. Even when they try miss wildly.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Though since Cypher can be taken in any AoI detachment by his lonesome as a slotless choice, why not just pop him in an actually good vanilla marines detachment and call it the Chosen?

[Blackhawk748]

Sicarius is useful in a Reserve-heavy army that uses Tactical Squads. That is, a Battle Demi-Company (or full Gladius) in Drop Pods or Rhinos. Which is good, because Sicarius can take the role of the Captain for the 'Company. If you run an Ultramarines' Demi-Company or Gladius (which you totally wouldn't because how come you're not playing White Scars?), Sicarius is actually almost an auto-include. Especially if you're running a single Demi-Company and filling the Command slot with Tigurius' Conclave. Which you would do, if you played Ultramarines, and not White Scars.
Sicarius gives you re-rolls to Reserves, and Tigurius gives +1 to Reserves in his Detachment only. Remembering that the entire Gladius counts as a single Detachment. Which means that Super-Friends Sicarius+Tigurius is going to give you 2+ re-rollable Reserves, with Objective Secured Drop Pods (that may or may not be free, even).

Sicarius has a use. It's in Drop Pod armies. Ultramarines should be taking him almost every game because Battle Demi-Companies are for winners, and the Gladius is one of the winning lists. Unfortunately, Sicarius is 'boring' and 'lame', so even Ultramarine players don't even take him, even though they should.

Where Sicarius absolutely does not belong is in a Formation with no Tactical Squads and no access to Drop Pods (i.e; Reserves).

I know he has a use and doesnt actually suck. Ultramarine players hate him because he shouldnt exist. 2nd Company is Your Dudes, why does My Dude have a name and personality already defined for me? Plus his fluff is painful to read through, thank you for that Ward.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I know he has a use and doesnt actually suck. Ultramarine players hate him because he shouldnt exist. 2nd Company is Your Dudes, why does My Dude have a name and personality already defined for me? Plus his fluff is painful to read through, thank you for that Ward.

Amen to that. He is very much one of Matt Ward's Dudes, though.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, enough ripping on Sicarius (im not gonna stop and we all know that) since im now thinking of Ultramarines what would a list making full use of Calgar and not containing Sicarius look like? Im thinking some Vanguard for Calgar to hang out with and then your usual Drop Pod army.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Ok, enough ripping on Sicarius (im not gonna stop and we all know that) since im now thinking of Ultramarines what would a list making full use of Calgar and not containing Sicarius look like? Im thinking some Vanguard for Calgar to hang out with and then your usual Drop Pod army.

Tigurius + electrodisplacement would be a good way to get Calgar into melee. Especially if there's a drop pod unit to switch with. Vanguard or Honor Guard would be a good choice, but I'm of the opinion that Honor Guard would be better here since electrodisplacement is going to being doing the heavy lifting mobility wise and Calgar can tank wounds for them (though another librarian with biomancy rolls to toughen up the unit wouldn't be amiss). Calgar's teleport homer would also help any drop pods in the later rounds to hone in on his position, allowing you to bring in some melee-ish backup the next turn. A hammernator squad with Calgar attached could probably also get the job done.

[Vaz]

If you could run your eye over the following GotCK list, it would be much appreciated:

Spoiler

Show

Basically, this is an effort to put cool stuff on the table and make it work, but thoughts on how it can be improved are what I'm after. The main issue I keep having is what to do with a praetor and the GotCK mostly solves this by letting him join a Sekhmet unit and DS in instead of having to either go down the spartan road or buy a non-psychic command squad so he can fit in a raider. I definately want to keep the Vets, the ASM and the Venators and keeping the Support squad and the castellax golems would be nice too but secondary to the vets/ASM/venators. I do kinda like the fast, elite strikeforce theme that I've got though as I think it suits the Sons fairly well and I've tried to stay away from the traditional gunline style that many are seemingly leaning towards.

Main opponents will be Iron Hands, Mechanicum, Raven Guard, Sons of Horus with some Deathguard and Imperial Fists too.

HQ
250 - Praetor, ML3, Tartaros, Iron Halo, Litanies, Paragon Blade [Raptora] {GotCK Rite}
145 - Librarian, ML2, Artificer, Refractor, Litanies [Corvidae]
100 - Damocles Command Rhino

Elite
60 - Apothecary, Jump Pack [Pavoni]
285 - 10x Vets, ML1, Asphyx, 2x Power weapons, Artificer, Fist, Rhino [Corvidae] {Marksmen}
285 - 10x Vets, ML1, Asphyx, 2x Power weapons, Artificer, Fist, Rhino [Corvidae] {Marksmen}

Troops
275 - 5x Sekhmet, Tartaros, 2x Chainfist [Raptora]
275 - 5x Sekhmet, Tartaros, 2x Chainfist [Raptora]
250 - 10x ASM, Combat Shields, 2x Power Weapons, Artificer, Fist [Raptora]
220 - 9x Support, Rotor Cannons, Asphyx, Rhino [Corvidae]

Fast
195 - 3x Javelins, MM/Cyclones

Heavy
270 - 2x Castellax-Achae
190 - Sicaran Venator
190 - Sicaran Venator

2990/3000

Probably stuff a power sword onto the apothecary with the remaining 10 points.

The Damocles will have to hide behind the Sicarans to survive T1, but it gives a huge amount of options to the force, since the HQ's, Sekhmet, ASM's and Jav's can all DS if desired while the Vets and Jav's can outflank. Praetor goes with a squad of Sekhmet and rolls Bio, Libby goes with the Supports and rolls Div and hopes for Misfortune. ASM run around and bully soft targets while being able to hold out for a turn or two until support arrives, Vets are midfield troubleshooters who can bully as well as hopefuly another 2 chances to roll misfortune for the rotorcannons. Venators and Javs are anti tank, Castellax are a distraction carnifex. 4 rolls on Div is also 4 chances at Scriers to give me a re-roll on reserves along with a +/- 1 from the Damocles to help me control when things come in.

I would have loved to put a pair of Contemptors and a handful more ASM in there too, but points are tight and something has to go. Is it worth losing all/some of the chainfists for combis so the sekhmet can pewpew the turn they come down or should they be running to minimise blasts? I'm thinking that virtually all power/force weapons should be Axes - Is there any reason to go swords or staves/maces? I would be against some Mechanicum, so staves/maces wouldn't go to waste entirely, but the majority of the time it's going to be other marines and I've got some nice conversions in mind for the axes.

I got there in the end! The Praetor is pretty de-rigeur for making the most out of your investment into a HQ as a Thousand Sons character, and going for a Guard of the Crimson King really makes you actually able to use your Psychic Dice.

2+/3++ 3 Wounds, with ML3 Telekinesis, which is arguably one of the best 30K lores, because Assail is dope. 250pts (or is 245pts?) however is a lot of expense. The upside is that it brings a lot to the table; decent chances of rolling for Levitation or Vortex. Putting him with Raptora Sekhmet for Stubborn, 2 Wound Bodyguards is awesome. If you don't Deep Strike, you're plodding and lose half of the benefits of having Deep Striking Terms. Either way, you've got 20% of your force in one unit, and 10% in another, and outside of the turn it comes down, you're not really any more resilient than any other Terminator Squad, unless you sack off the Raptora Telekinesis Synergy, and roll for Endurance on Biomancy Sekhmet to get Eternal Warrior. In regards to losing Chainfists; no. Not at all. Additional Pew is good, but you absolutely have to ensure that you cannot get Walled by a Dreadnought. If the cost of not having your prime combat unit being unable to shoot then so be it, especially if the alternative is to have something as nigh universal as a Contemptor, or Leviathan stop you in your tracks, then it's not going to be able to do its job.

There's 145 points invested into getting another two rolls on Scriers Gaze. If you want to save some points, you can choose another Centurion and give them a Mastery Level and take Corvidae, you can get Scouting Achea for adding 12" range to your Assail/Vortex or Darkfire Lances, which reroll 1's to hit on the move.

Sniper Vets with Shred rerolling 1's sounds like a lot of fun, and helps take down some Mechanicum forces, especially when you're using them as a source for Divinations, but there are often better ways to spend your dice unless you roll Misfortune to make all of those Bolters actually useable.

The Assault Marines are a very nice combination of rules, although I'd ideally like to personally see some Meltabombs in there so that they can threaten Deredeo's and Artillery Squadrons easier. Where those points come from, I'm not entirely sure. The Rotor Cannons need some help, and some

I've never truly been a fan of Javelins, but a lot of people swear by them. I honestly find myself wishing for "just more", but that may be because I was coddled by Grav Artillery, and instead gravitate (#sorrynotsorry) towards land speeders with Grav-guns. Sicaran Venators are nice AT guns, but limited by the lines of sight.

I really like the list, and it plays very differently to a lot of the lists I typically play. The one thing I'm slightly concious about is the amount of models you're actually putting down, but it seems to hit every checkbox I can think of. When I get a bit more practise with the Thousand Sons, I'd love to try them out soon.

[Cheesegear]

I know he has a use and doesnt actually suck. Ultramarine players hate him because he shouldnt exist. 2nd Company is Your Dudes, why does My Dude have a name and personality already defined for me? Plus his fluff is painful to read through, thank you for that Ward.

Fluff is for nerds.
Make your own model. Do whatever you want. Say you're using Sicarius' rules, which aren't even that bad. I've seen more Count As Tiguriuses than I can count. Make a Count As Sicarius. It's no different. In fact, people will care even less because Sicarius is definitely not on Tigurius' level. So, yeah. Have your trash model, no-one's going to care. But if you pull out a Count As Tigurius, it will be scrutinised, because people will see what you did there.

Ok, enough ripping on Sicarius (im not gonna stop and we all know that) since im now thinking of Ultramarines what would a list making full use of Calgar and not containing Sicarius look like? Im thinking some Vanguard for Calgar to hang out with and then your usual Drop Pod army.

Do you have access to the Astartes 4? You do. You're also playing Ultramarines, which means you have access to Tigurius.
Do you have access to a unit that can be in your opponent's DZ - or less than 7" away from it - before your first Psychic Phase? You do. You're playing Space Marines.
Do you have a Melee unit on foot that you're sad about 'cause it's slow? You do. His name is Guilliman.

Congratulations. You're now (ab)using Electrodisplacement...

Electrodisplacement is currently b0rked on Marines because Marines have Drop Pods (Tigurius will be switching with Guilliman at least once)...

ION;
I annihilated a Deathwatch army today (inb4; Deathwatch shouldn't be played by themselves), 19-0.

Imperial Fists, Sternhammer Strike Force
Imperial Fists, CAD
(W) Terminator Captain; Catraphractii, Chainfist, Auspex, The Shield Eternal - 190 Points

Scouts (x5); [Boltguns], Combi-Grav - 65 Points
Scouts (x5); [Boltguns], Combi-Grav - 65 Points

- Battle Demi-Company
Captain Lysander - 230 Points

Tactical Squad (x10); Grav-Gun, Combi-Grav + Rhino - 200 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Grav-Gun, Combi-Grav + Rhino - 200 Points
Tactical Squad (x10); Grav-Gun, Combi-Grav + Rhino - 200 Points

Command Squad; Apothecary, x4 Meltaguns, x1 Melta Bombs + Drop Pod - 185 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer + Drop Pod - 180 Points

Land Speeder; x2 Heavy Bolters - 50 Points

Devastators (x5); Multi-Melta, x3 Missile Launchers + Drop Pod - 160 Points

- Line Breakers
Vindicator; Storm Bolter - 125 Points

Total: 1850 Points

Lysander doesn't need his Warlord Trait because he gets FNP off of the Command Squad. Cataphractii makes the Devastators S&P. I need the Cataphractii in the CAD so I can re-roll my Warlord Trait. Unfortunately, my Warlord not being in the Sternhammer means my army isn't Stubborn, but that's okay, because Stubborn isn't even that good (that's what ATSKNF is for). I re-rolled on Strategic into "3 units get Infiltrate." which was basically game. Domination on Turn 3. Supremacy on Turn 4. Battle Demi-Companies are for winners in Maelstrom, and the Victrix is just going to make Ultramarines that much better.

[Drasius]

2+/3++ 3 Wounds, with ML3 Telekinesis, which is arguably one of the best 30K lores, because Assail is dope. 250pts (or is 245pts?) however is a lot of expense. The upside is that it brings a lot to the table; decent chances of rolling for Levitation or Vortex.

I was planning on rolling him on Bio actually, raptora arcana is just to get a 3++. I think trading casting Telekinesis on 3's (which both Sekhmet are doing anyway and you can't cast the same power twice from the same unit anyway) for Bio on 4's is a pretty good deal since both iron arm, endurance (especially on 2W termies) and warp speed are god mode and enfeeble is no joke either while life leach is quite handy for topping up perils wounds and the random wound taken off a 2W terminator. Besides, If I really want Levitation (I do) or Maelstrom (possible, WC3 is a lot), I'll just pick them on the sekhmet.

Putting him with Raptora Sekhmet for Stubborn, 2 Wound Bodyguards is awesome. If you don't Deep Strike, you're plodding and lose half of the benefits of having Deep Striking Terms. Either way, you've got 20% of your force in one unit, and 10% in another, and outside of the turn it comes down, you're not really any more resilient than any other Terminator Squad, unless you sack off the Raptora Telekinesis Synergy, and roll for Endurance on Biomancy Sekhmet to get Eternal Warrior.

Sekhmet can't roll bio (that's my reading of the rules anyway, I've seen the other interpretation and that's just silly), but that's what the praetor is for anyway, and yeah, if they're forced to walk, then they're all dead, but hopefully getting reserves on a 2+ and no scatter within 24" should mean the damocles will be worth it as long as it survives turn 1.

In regards to losing Chainfists; no. Not at all. Additional Pew is good, but you absolutely have to ensure that you cannot get Walled by a Dreadnought. If the cost of not having your prime combat unit being unable to shoot then so be it, especially if the alternative is to have something as nigh universal as a Contemptor, or Leviathan stop you in your tracks, then it's not going to be able to do its job.

I suspected as much, especially with how many dreads I see running around in my meta, but I've also seen what 10 combi-plas justaerin do when they drop in and it's not pretty. I could drop a javelin I guess, but then I don't feel that only 2 javs are enough, but when 1 javelin buys 10 combis, I'm not sure I can complain too hard.

There's 145 points invested into getting another two rolls on Scriers Gaze. If you want to save some points, you can choose another Centurion and give them a Mastery Level and take Corvidae, you can get Scouting Achea for adding 12" range to your Assail/Vortex or Darkfire Lances, which reroll 1's to hit on the move.

Corvidae don't rr1's if they moved, even if the unit is relentless, just like gitfindas. I've also used all 3 HQ slots already, so no more HQ's.

[QUOTE=Vaz;21792212]Sniper Vets with Shred rerolling 1's sounds like a lot of fun, and helps take down some Mechanicum forces, especially when you're using them as a source for Divinations, but there are often better ways to spend your dice unless you roll Misfortune to make all of those Bolters actually useable.

Sniper already gives rending ap2 on 6's, what good would misfortune do for the bolters? I was hoping for misfortune anyway for the rotor cannons and ASM's, but worst comes to worst, any of the div powers are good for them, though I do anticipate them not casting much.

The Assault Marines are a very nice combination of rules, although I'd ideally like to personally see some Meltabombs in there so that they can threaten Deredeo's and Artillery Squadrons easier. Where those points come from, I'm not entirely sure. The Rotor Cannons need some help, and some

Yeah, me too, but is 1 melta bomb really worth so many points? Artillery should be fine since they're either rear 10 or T4 3+ while even locking a deredeo up should be a win as it's only str6(?) ap- with what, 3 attacks? It also looks like you cut off mid sentance there? The rotor cannons have asphyx, so shred, rr1's to hit from corvidae and possibly some buffs from the ML2 libby. I haven't ordered the rotor bits yet though, so I could be talked into something else, but rotor cannons look pretty cool, so you're going to have to be persuasive.

I've never truly been a fan of Javelins, but a lot of people swear by them. I honestly find myself wishing for "just more", but that may be because I was coddled by Grav Artillery, and instead gravitate (#sorrynotsorry) towards land speeders with Grav-guns. Sicaran Venators are nice AT guns, but limited by the lines of sight.

I've seen them do some dirty things from our ravenguard player, but then, he also takes grav speeders too so, much of a muchness. I was hoping that the Venators would be OK since they're fast, do you find that they often have trouble getting good shots off?

I really like the list, and it plays very differently to a lot of the lists I typically play. The one thing I'm slightly concious about is the amount of models you're actually putting down, but it seems to hit every checkbox I can think of. When I get a bit more practise with the Thousand Sons, I'd love to try them out soon.

Yeah, I'm worried that I'm short on models too, but I'm used to playing 1850 with ~20 models when I play 40k thousand sons, I reckon I should be OK (famous last words!). What type of lists do you usually play Vaz? Thank you very much for your feedback, it's given me cause to go back and rethink the jav vs grav speeders (for the 3rd or 4th time now) and cemented some other thoughts I had around the basic core of the list too. Much appreciated.

[boomwolf]

I know he has a use and doesnt actually suck. Ultramarine players hate him because he shouldnt exist. 2nd Company is Your Dudes, why does My Dude have a name and personality already defined for me? Plus his fluff is painful to read through, thank you for that Ward.

What exactly makes the 2nd company "your dudes" any more than the third, forth, fifth and so on?

I mean, if you look by how they are defined, first company are veterans, second to fifth are all battle companies, sixth to ninth are all reserve (and who says your guys are not the reserves?) and the tenth is the scout/trainee company (some people play them too)


I see nothing that marks the second company as specifically "your dudes"

[Cheesegear]

What exactly makes the 2nd company "your dudes" any more than the third, forth, fifth and so on?

Tradition. That's it.
The 5th Ed. Codex was in 2008, and people are still mad for no reason, because they don't know how to Forge A Narrative and make their own Second Captain. The thing is, Sicarius was Your Dude in 5th Ed., because you picked up that Assault on Black Reach box, and you had a dude called Captain Sicarius, and he killed Orks and didn't afraid of anything. Unlike Balthasar, however (Dark Vengeance) Ward took that dude who you had in the first box you ever picked up in 5th Ed., and gave him a real stat block... What a criminal.

[Theodoric]

What exactly makes the 2nd company "your dudes" any more than the third, forth, fifth and so on?

Because they're the ones with the yellow/golden pauldron trim, ie. the way everyone paints their Ultramarines. If you think 'Ultramarine', the one you're picturing him doesn't have a green or red trim on his pauldrons. I think the 6th company also has either yellor or golden trim, I'm not sure.

Why GW doesn't just undo that and make everyone's pauldrons gold by default (leaving open the option for those who do like it), as that's what most people do anyway, is beyond me.

[Blackhawk748]

Fluff is for nerds.
Make your own model. Do whatever you want. Say you're using Sicarius' rules, which aren't even that bad. I've seen more Count As Tiguriuses than I can count. Make a Count As Sicarius. It's no different. In fact, people will care even less because Sicarius is definitely not on Tigurius' level. So, yeah. Have your trash model, no-one's going to care. But if you pull out a Count As Tigurius, it will be scrutinised, because people will see what you did there.

We all know your opinion of fluff Cheese.

Trust me i would, his model looks so damn out of place, its like hes posing for a portrait or something.

Do you have access to the Astartes 4? You do. You're also playing Ultramarines, which means you have access to Tigurius.
Do you have access to a unit that can be in your opponent's DZ - or less than 7" away from it - before your first Psychic Phase? You do. You're playing Space Marines.
Do you have a Melee unit on foot that you're sad about 'cause it's slow? You do. His name is Guilliman.

Congratulations. You're now (ab)using Electrodisplacement...

Good thing i asked about how to use Calgar, not Guilliman. I know how to use him. Just like you said, have him and Tiggy do the Time Warp Electroshuffle and jobs a good'un. Now, do i do the same thing with Calgar, except her just gets a squad of buddies to hand out with?

Tradition. That's it.
The 5th Ed. Codex was in 2008, and people are still mad for no reason, because they don't know how to Forge A Narrative and make their own Second Captain. The thing is, Sicarius was Your Dude in 5th Ed., because you picked up that Assault on Black Reach box, and you had a dude called Captain Sicarius, and he killed Orks and didn't afraid of anything. Unlike Balthasar, however (Dark Vengeance) Ward took that dude who you had in the first box you ever picked up in 5th Ed., and gave him a real stat block... What a criminal.

It is Tradition. 2nd company was always the easiest company to make for players (though 10th company wasnt exactly difficult either) and so, it was Your Dudes. Now you can make whatever company you want, so thats less of an issue, but the tradition still remains, and Ward threw that out the window for a shallow and poorly written character no one asked for. (see, told you i wouldnt stop)

Except my first box was Battle of Macragge, so i had Brother Sergeant Octavius and Lieutenant Varius, and not Cato Sicarius. So my Second Captain was whoever i wanted him to be, not a Calgar knockoff.

[Cheesegear]

We all know your opinion of fluff Cheese.

The fluff is great! I wouldn't make Let's Reads out of it if I didn't love it. I just don't think fluff should prevent anyone from building a competitive army. If Sicarius is good on the board, then you should buy Sicarius.

If the reason you lose games, is because you refuse to breach fluff (for better or worse), then you will always lose games.

Good thing i asked about how to use Calgar, not Guilliman.

Same difference. Calgar is still a Melee model, and on foot. Having Tigurius in his unit will still allow the electric slide if you put a unit in a Drop Pod in your opponent's DZ.

Now, do i do the same thing with Calgar, except her just gets a squad of buddies to hand out with?

Calgar's Fists are not Unwieldy. Calgar will walk through most units entirely by himself. Similar to Abaddon. Whatever squad you put him with is fine. If you can get him into Melee on Turn 1, it doesn't matter what the rest of his squad is. Honour Guard have 2+ Saves, Vanguard have Invulnerable saves and can re-roll Charges (and are therefore better), and a Command Squad can have Invulnerable saves and FNP. I'd go with the Vanguard, since Lightning Claws are dirt cheap, free re-rolls to Charges, and Calgar has enough AP2 for the entire squad.

Now you can make whatever company you want, so thats less of an issue, but the tradition still remains

Not all traditions are worth keeping. As you said, you can do whatever you want. The tradition is now meaningless. And I've played the game for ~20 years. Because - most importantly, no-one is telling that you can't make your own Second Captain. I saw one the other day that wasn't Sicarius. Truly, Ward has ruined the game when he totally told everyone how the only Captain that could possibly exist was Sicarius and that you aren't allowed to Forge A Narrative. Truly, a monster Ward is.

You may as well say "No Formations, No Fliers, No Allies. Objective Secured is a myth. No Warlord Traits. Eternal War only. Also, Tau are banned."

Ward threw that out the window for a shallow and poorly written character no one asked for.

Well, you're wrong. Because there are a whole bunch of people asking for Master Balthasar. Because he's the guy you start the game with. So, naturally, players want more of him. Crimson Slaughter got their own Codex that's how much people wanted more Crimson Slaughter. If I could go back in time ~10 years, I'm certain there were people asking for more stories about Sicarius.

[Blackhawk748]

So i made a list using the new Ultramarine MFD, and it didnt work right....

Spoiler: So Close

Show

Strike Force Command
Calgar-275
Command Squad w/ Apothecary, 4 Storm Shields, 4 Axes-205

Librarius Conclave
Tigerius-165
Librarian-65
Librarian-65

Battle Demi Company
Cataphractii Captain-120
10 Tacticals w/ 2 Meltas, Drop Pod-195
10 Tacticals w/ 2 Meltas, Drop Pod-195
10 Tacticals w/ 2 Plasma, Drop Pod-205

3 Bikers w/ 2 Grav Guns-93

5 Devastator Squad w/ 4 Grav Cannons, Drop Pod-245

Total:1828

Good lord do you run our of points fast when you play Space Marines. Easy solution is to cut the Tac Squads in half. That would free up 245 points, which is enough for a minimum 10th Company with 2 Land Speeder Storms.

[bluntpencil]

So i made a list using the new Ultramarine MFD, and it didnt work right....

Spoiler: So Close

Show

Strike Force Command
Calgar-275
Command Squad w/ Apothecary, 4 Storm Shields, 4 Axes-205

Librarius Conclave
Tigerius-165
Librarian-65
Librarian-65

Battle Demi Company
Cataphractii Captain-120
10 Tacticals w/ 2 Meltas, Drop Pod-195
10 Tacticals w/ 2 Meltas, Drop Pod-195
10 Tacticals w/ 2 Plasma, Drop Pod-205

3 Bikers w/ 2 Grav Guns-93

5 Devastator Squad w/ 4 Grav Cannons, Drop Pod-245

Total:1828

Good lord do you run our of points fast when you play Space Marines. Easy solution is to cut the Tac Squads in half. That would free up 245 points, which is enough for a minimum 10th Company with 2 Land Speeder Storms.

You'd be better with a Gladius, surely?

Cut those tactical squads in half, into 5 mans, replace the bikers with Assault Squads with flamers, take a Chaplain... All the Pods are now free, allowing an extra Assault Squad, and an extra Devastator Squad...

You'd have near enough the exact same army, but better.

[Blackhawk748]

You'd be better with a Gladius, surely?

Cut those tactical squads in half, into 5 mans, replace the bikers with Assault Squads with flamers, take a Chaplain... All the Pods are now free, allowing an extra Assault Squad, and an extra Devastator Squad...

You'd have near enough the exact same army, but better.

Slight problem. No Calgar that way, and no more Doctrines than i know what to do with. Not having Calgar is the bigger issue obviously.

[bluntpencil]

Slight problem. No Calgar that way, and no more Doctrines than i know what to do with. Not having Calgar is the bigger issue obviously.

Calgar is a Command Choice in a Gladius...

[Blackhawk748]

Calgar is a Command Choice in a Gladius...

*Headdesk* Im reading the Codex in an E Pub, so i will miss this kinda crap occasionally. So ya, now the Gladius is a no brainer

[Bobby Baratheon]

Unless you're pulling the old relentless Cataphractii trick, your devastators probably don't need 4 grav cannons. Cutting two off would give you another 70 points to play with, and you could definitely do worse than a Gladius with plenty of MSU drop pod melta squads and then a melee death star to steamroll hard targets.

Assault squads are actually sort of useful in a gladius if only for their jack of all trade abilities. For a relatively cheap price you can have a unit that can toast infantry (2x flamers), wreck vehicles (combimelta/melta bombs/krak grenades/volume of attacks) and pose a threat for unprepared targets as well as jet around the battlefield on jump packs.

If you do go double gladius, it's not a bad idea to shell out for the more expensive Razorbacks since most of the cost is free. Paying 20 points for a TL lascannon or las/TL plas transport with objective secured isn't a bad deal at all. Park your devastators on an backfield objective, and let em have it. You might consider longer range weapons for one devastator squad for that reason.

EDIT: I just noticed that you do in fact have a Cataphractii terminator captain, in which case go for the throat with the grav cannons on your devs.

[Cheesegear]

Slight problem. No Calgar that way, and no more Doctrines than i know what to do with. Not having Calgar is the bigger issue obviously.

My Google-Fu took me here. Drop the Assault Squads to Land Speeders, trade Sicarius for a Cataphractii Captain, maybe drop the Command Squad? I'm sure you can get a Conclave in there somehow.

ION;
GUILLIMAN IS ONLY 350 POINTS!? WHAT!?

[Hootman]

ION;
GUILLIMAN IS ONLY 350 POINTS!? WHAT!?

Ffs, really? That's absurd. That's barely more than the Swarmlord (and actually less, once you factor in its ablative wound tax). Are Space Marines going down 10ppm in 8th? Are Orks and Guard going to cost 2ppm? With full upgrades? Because apparently points costs don't mean anything anymore, and we can just make up BS. It's what GW is doing, we might as well.

[Cheesegear]

Ffs, really? That's absurd [...] Because apparently points costs don't mean anything anymore

If you want to sell models, make their rules broken. GW (finally) learned it in 2016.
I'm pretty sure GW learned that the 'ceiling' on selling models is around 400 Points or so. Anything above 400 Points, people basically wont buy, because those things are unusable.

I was like "Guilliman looks around 450. Except it's Guilliman, so GW will make him a cool 400." Then I underestimated GW's need to sell models, and Guilliman was 350, making him basically in auto-include in basically every list from now on, forever, which means guaranteed sales.

[Grim Portent]

To be fair things like the Swarmlord, Greater Daemons and their contemporaries are horribly overcosted anyway, like Land Raiders and Terminators. Their price should be more in line with a slightly less than fully tooled up tactical squad rather than the equivalent of 2 predator tanks. Or they should all get a major stat bump.

While I think Guilliman should be more expensive than 350, I still think he should only be 15-25 points more expensive. He's powerful, but he's also really tactically inflexible. No transports, no deepstrike, no joining units. He has to walk up the board or use psychic slingshots to travel around, and if he's not near the rest of your force a lot of his buffs don't do anything.

[Cheesegear]

To be fair things like the Swarmlord, Greater Daemons and their contemporaries are horribly overcosted anyway

Are they really overcosted? Or did things come out much later that were undercosted, and the new hotness?

Their price should be more in line with a slightly less than fully tooled up tactical squad

Terminators are 165 Points base. Which is slightly less than a tooled Tactical Squad.

rather than the equivalent of 2 predator tanks.

Predators need to not cost 125 Points, too.

He has to walk up the board or use psychic slingshots to travel around

The thing is...That psychic slingshot does exist, and Ultramarines have a reliable way to have it. If Guilliman wasn't so easily paired with Tigurius, I don't think it would matter. But, since he is...

and if he's not near the rest of your force a lot of his buffs don't do anything.

If you have Guilliman, you're building around him.
9+ free Razorbacks is tactically inflexible. The only way you can run it is if you MSU, and Razorbacks are only AV11 and you only have 5 models per squad and you give up a boatload of Kill Points when you play the Gladius, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.

'Mono-Builds' are not necessarily bad. Guilliman lends himself to a very particular army build, and that army build is not bad. The only question is whether or not you want to run that army ("Help, I have too many turns of re-rolls, my life is overrr..."). If you don't want Guilliman, you're still an Army of the Imperium, and can always fall back on Celestine.

[Grim Portent]

Are they really overcosted? Or did things come out much later that were undercosted, and the new hotness?

10 Chaos Marines with 2 plasma guns is 170 points. You can easily stick another 5 man unit with a plasma gun down and still be cheaper than the Swarmlord while easily killing him in one, maybe two shooting phases, the unit(s) are also able to move faster by grabbing a rhino, are cheap enough to sit on backfield objectives with no concern and are still able to kill chaff just as readily as MCs and characters. If the Swarmlord even gets into combat with them he's usually only going to kill 3-4 a round.

Terminators are 165 Points base. Which is slightly less than a tooled Tactical Squad.

They also have half the wounds of that tac squad, no ranged upgrades, and are more fragile than bikers, who are still cheaper than them and have access to better guns and greater mobility. Oh, and they can't sweeping advance, which is one of the more powerful parts of the assault phase.

Predators need to not cost 125 Points, too.

Dunno, as is I feel they often cost more than I'm willing to pay for what they bring, and if they got their cost raised too much it would lead to Land Raiders becoming Predators+.

The thing is...That psychic slingshot does exist, and Ultramarines have a reliable way to have it. If Guilliman wasn't so easily paired with Tigurius, I don't think it would matter. But, since he is...

If he wasn't able to be slingshot across the board I'm not sure he'd really be viable even at his current price. He's basically an old fashioned Distraction Carnifex without some way to move faster, enough plasma/las/grav/rending will drop him no matter how tough he is, and a Knight Gallant has something like a 56% chance to drop him in one round.

If you have Guilliman, you're building around him.
9+ free Razorbacks is tactically inflexible. The only way you can run it is if you MSU, and Razorbacks are only AV11 and you only have 5 models per squad and you give up a boatload of Kill Points when you play the Gladius, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.

'Mono-Builds' are not necessarily bad. Guilliman lends himself to a very particular army build, and that army build is not bad. The only question is whether or not you want to run that army. If you don't want Guilliman, you're still an Army of the Imperium, and can always fall back on Celestine.

He lends himself to drop pod armies with psychic support, so you can get him and some minions to buff in the enemy deployment zone fast, or to footslogging armies, which marines are way too expensive and he is way too vulnerable for. The latter appears to have been the intended use based on that Cato Sicarius formation, even if it's terrible as hell. I suppose he could hang back and buff a long ranged shooty army, but that's a lot to pay for reroll 1s to hit in a 12" bubble.

Under most circumstances I would prefer to use Celestine or even Cawl over Guilliman. From prior experience with various flavours of Greater Daemons and the Swarmlord with retinue I know that 300+ is an insane amount of points to sink into one model that's not able to psychically buff itself into nigh invulnerability, but 200 is only a little more than a tooled up Juggerlord.