Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXXXV

[Heliomance]

Ok, I may have a solution to the "flying/falling" problem. It's not quite RAW, so this may count as homebrew, but how about:

On a plane with subjective gravity, "each individual chooses the direction of gravity’s pull." (DMG p. 148/MotP p. 9)

However, each individual may choose "no direction". When this is chosen, the individual treats the environment as having "no gravity", and they may move around as per the "force of will" rules (MotP 49). Here's the text:

"This is akin to flight with perfect maneuverability and a maximum speed of 10 feet per point of Intelligence. When one is maneuvering through astral space, 'up' and 'down' are determined solely by the traveler’s orientation (down is beyond your feet, and up is above your head). Unlike normal flying, climbs and dives on the Astral Plane don’t change a character's speed, and there's no minimum speed to avoid a stall. An astral character may double move, but his maneuverability drops to average. An astral character may move at four times his speed (effectively running), but maneuverability drops to clumsy."

If an individual in a subjective gravity environment has chosen a direction for gravity, then this flight is no longer available until they decide to choose a different direction. If this individual unexpectedly falls, they may attempt to change the direction of gravity by making a DC 16 Wisdom check as a free action. They may only attempt this once per round. If the check is unsuccessful, they can try again next round with a cumulative +6 modifier, but are otherwise subject to the normal falling rules: fall 150' on the first round, 300' on any subsequent round. If they are unable to change their direction or choose "no gravity" before landing on a solid surface, they take falling damage as normal.

I'm going to go with this interpretation, at least as far as Astral Dancers go. It makes sense to me, and makes this trainwreck of a class slightly more usable.

[Darrin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

No gravity still exists: unattended objects and nonsentient creatures behave as if there is no gravity.

Astral Dancer: the only PrC that gets even better after you're dead! ("My corpse is an object, so now it's much more maneuverable!")

The standard planes with the "No Gravity" trait are:
The Ethereal
The DMG is silent on how you're supposed to move around.

That's not entirely true. DMG mentions "force of will" on page 148 but doesn't give any details. Presumably, this is an artifact of the 3.0 rules from MotP. It's not clear if the 3.0 rules from MotP still exist in 3.5, or if they've been superseded/deleted by the DMG. The fact that both the DMG and Planar Handbook make mention of these movement rules leads me to believe that the designers intended that they should still be in place, but just forgot to include them anywhere in the 3.5 sourcebooks.

Non-standard planes, however (all descriptions from the MotP since they aren't in the DMG's cosmology):
The Far Realm
You don't actually physically move in the Far Realm but instead pass through its layers in a vaguely defined "with but a thought" way. Who knows how it works - the Manual of the Planes sure doesn't.

It shouldn't surprise me that the Far Realms contradicts itself. MotP p. 211:

"Entities of the Far Realm float in dark nothingness.The only type of movement is passage between layers, which requires only thought."

But on the next page it mentions two types of movement:

"Movement in the Far Realm is like swimming. There is no gravity, but the air is syrupy thick, and strong strokes are needed to swim through it. Moving between layers is as easy as willing oneself to do so."

Demiplanes
10% of randomly generated demiplanes have "no gravity", but the Manual of the Planes doesn't define how to move through them (for obvious reasons).

Even though "force of will" is only described under the Astral Plane entry, it's the default movement on any plane with "no gravity". But you have to dig through the Carceri description to find this:

"For characters on an orb of Carceri, movement functions normally. Once a character gets more than 100 feet off the surface of an orb, gravity disappears. But unlike other planes with the no gravity trait, force of will doesn't provide a means of locomotion." (emphasis added)

I'm going to go with this interpretation, at least as far as Astral Dancers go. It makes sense to me, and makes this trainwreck of a class slightly more usable.

The equine twitched, so... just to clarify, the ability to fly via "force of will" is not something inherent in the class abilities for Astral Dancer. If it matters (for familiars/companions/mounts, let's say), I think we have to assume this form of movement is available to any creature in a no/subjective gravity environment. The Astral Dancer just gets "better" at it (but only under an exceedingly obtuse definition of "better").

Anyway. I have a couple ideas that might lead to something, but I keep running into the problem of the class abilities get *worse* as you take more levels of Astral Dancer... and I am still astounded that the entire class is outperformed by two levels of *MONK*.

[Technetium43]

Everything in my body is rebelling against the idea of even attempting something with this pile of bulette-droppings that calls itself a class. Thus, I have immediately had 5 separate, fully formed ideas for it in the past day. Thanks brain.

[ATHATH]

Isn't there a playable spider that's mindless? How does it interact with Astral Dancer and the Astral Plane?

[Technetium43]

While the Hairy Spider technically has LA +0 (which was blatantly an oversight), player characters explicitly cannot have no intelligence score. Thus, you would have to template one up to get it to work, at which point there's no problem because it has an Int score. However, it says right there in the description for subjective directional gravity that non-sentient creatures (and objects) treat it as no-gravity. Fairly self-explanatory.

[Gemini476]

To be specific, the Manual of the Planes says that mindless critters can still move 10ft/turn but need to push objects to get going. Basically IRL zero-G movement, I guess.

[Venger]

no speculation please

[ATHATH]

no speculation please

I will, but honestly, with the amount of rules-problems/questions that are going to come with this SI, I think that a little bit of speculation is unavoidable.

[danielxcutter]

Ow. I haven't even looked this up yet, but what the posts say about it alone imply that the suckage is physically painful.

[Venger]

I will, but honestly, with the amount of rules-problems/questions that are going to come with this SI, I think that a little bit of speculation is unavoidable.

oh, sorry, that's not what speculation is. I just mean talking about how people will enter (classes, races, feats, etc) since it gives away what some chefs might be doing and spoils the judges' palate

[Amechra]

I have... an idea. It's screwy, and it relies on some wink-wink... but it works.

Kinda.

Sorta.

Maybe.

[Bucky]

Hey, they eventually get both Improved Evasion AND +2 AC on normal planes. That'd almost be worth a dip if it came online 8 levels faster.

Also, I read their abilities as implicitly and accidentally granting the ability to fly on the Astral Plane.

[The Viscount]

Since the Astral plane has subjective directional gravity in 3.5, everybody can fly on it anyway!

[WhamBamSam]

Well, I think I've actually got some decent tricks for this class, but constructing a build with which to actually implement them is proving problematic.

[Venger]

Well, I think I've actually got some decent tricks for this class, but constructing a build with which to actually implement them is proving problematic.

Best of luck to you. I've got a stub ironed out. Looking at that featureless lump that is the si messing up my build hurts, yo

[danielxcutter]

Best of luck to you. I've got a stub ironed out. Looking at that featureless lump that is the si messing up my build hurts, yo

Well, suckiness is painful...

[Crake]

It still kind of does matter, though, since subjective directional gravity doesn't allow turning (and moves at falling speeds - 150ft the first round, 300ft thereafter - and requires a DC16 Wis check to change direction)

Just wanted to step in and say 150/300ft isn't falling speeds, that's stalled falling speed, ie. when a creature is stopped from flying properly and begins to fall, but trying to regain it's flight as it does so. Actual falling distances are outlined in the DMG2 as: 670ft in the first round, and 1150ft in subsequent rounds.

Also, god damn is that a terrible class.

[Venger]

Just wanted to step in and say 150/300ft isn't falling speeds, that's stalled falling speed, ie. when a creature is stopped from flying properly and begins to fall, but trying to regain it's flight as it does so. Actual falling distances are outlined in the DMG2 as: 670ft in the first round, and 1150ft in subsequent rounds.

Also, god damn is that a terrible class.

Very helpful. Thanks.

Every time I look at its features, I think of a thousand better ways I could give my guy all this stuff.

[Gemini476]

Just wanted to step in and say 150/300ft isn't falling speeds, that's stalled falling speed, ie. when a creature is stopped from flying properly and begins to fall, but trying to regain it's flight as it does so. Actual falling distances are outlined in the DMG2 as: 670ft in the first round, and 1150ft in subsequent rounds.

Also, god damn is that a terrible class.

Maybe, but that's not how falling speeds work in Subjective Directional Gravity planes:

Subjective Directional Gravity

The strength of gravity on a plane with this trait is the same as on the Material Plane, but each individual chooses the direction of gravity’s pull. Such a plane has no gravity for unattended objects and nonsentient creatures. This sort of environment can be very disorienting to the newcomer, but is common on “weightless” planes.
Characters on a plane with subjective directional gravity can move normally along a solid surface by imagining “down” near their feet. If suspended in midair, a character “flies” by merely choosing a “down” direction and “falling” that way. Under such a procedure, an individual “falls” 150 feet in the first round and 300 feet in each succeeding round. Movement is straight-line only. In order to stop, one has to slow one’s movement by changing the designated “down” direction (again, moving 150 feet in the new direction in the first round and 300 feet per round thereafter).

It takes a DC 16 Wisdom check to set a new direction of gravity as a free action; this check can be made once per round. Any character who fails this Wisdom check in successive rounds receives a +6 bonus on subsequent checks until he or she succeeds.

[Crake]

Maybe, but that's not how falling speeds work in Subjective Directional Gravity planes:

Ah fair call, I guess since everyone is technically flying on the astral plane that makes sense.

[Gemini476]

Ah fair call, I guess since everyone is technically flying on the astral plane that makes sense.

Well, "flying". By which I mean "falling". By which I mean that that description really uses way too many scare quotes.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that RAW you can't actually stop moving in a subjective gravity plane? Even the description for "stopping" has you moving in the opposite direction! Also, well, does this cost actions or can everyone move and full attack? Can you charge while "falling", and does that actually count as falling and/or flying for the purpose of feats? Man, this is really vague and irritating.

[Zaq]

So we've got a total of what, two or three (depending on if you count Evasion and Improved Evasion separately) features that function anywhere with gravity? And they're all passive/defensive abilities, of course. That's a tall order to cook with. Even if we assume that we're on the Astral or wherever, most of the class's features are passive or defensive. Those are hard to show off.

I may end up surprising myself with another cheeky build (as has been my wont for the last few times I've entered, more or less), but right now, I don't see anything that can be done with this.

I do find it slightly amusing that unlike, say, Elemental Warrior on the next page, the prereqs do not require you to have ever visited the Astral or a similar no-gravity plane (accepting the book's dubious argument that the Astral has no gravity, as other posters have discussed). Not amusing enough to come up with a build idea or anything, but amusing.

[1pwny]

Wait, so clarification. Is the "force of will" thing only present in the Astral Plane? Hypothetically, if I transported you to a different, random plane that just happened to have 0 gravity, would anyone still be able to fly?

[The Viscount]

Well, "flying". By which I mean "falling". By which I mean that that description really uses way too many scare quotes.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that RAW you can't actually stop moving in a subjective gravity plane? Even the description for "stopping" has you moving in the opposite direction! Also, well, does this cost actions or can everyone move and full attack? Can you charge while "falling", and does that actually count as falling and/or flying for the purpose of feats? Man, this is really vague and irritating.

This isn't flying! This is falling, with style!

Since objects in a directional subjective gravity plane can float as if in no gravity, I feel like you can do the same by just thinking about no direction of gravity.

You can only move by force of will in a plane with directional subjective gravity, such as the Astral Plane. If you want to move in a plane with no gravity, such as the Ethereal, you need to have some way of moving around, like flight.

[Darrin]

Wait, so clarification. Is the "force of will" thing only present in the Astral Plane? Hypothetically, if I transported you to a different, random plane that just happened to have 0 gravity, would anyone still be able to fly?

The "Force of Will" movement rules are in the 3.0 MotP. Although the rules are listed under the Astral Plane, there is text in other sections of the MotP that suggests this movement mode is available in any plane with "no gravity" unless the plane's description says otherwise.

The 3.5 DMG mentions "Force of Will" but doesn't describe how it works. *IF* the 3.0 MotP rules are still valid for 3.5 games, then they should still work on "no gravity" planes described in the 3.5 DMG.

I proposed a slight tweak to the rules to reconcile the discrepancy between the 3.0 Astral Plane having "no gravity" and the 3.5 version having "subjective gravity": the ability to choose "no gravity" as a possible direction for "subjective gravity", as "no direction" is still a valid direction. Helio approved this house rule for the purposes of this contest, but if I understand her ruling correctly, it's restricted to only Astral Dancers.

To make things easier, consider Astral Dancers to have a class ability called "No Direction" at 1st level (not to be confused with BSB or NKOTB). And to set my mind at ease, you may want to consider that Astral Dancers can share this ability with familiars, animal companions, special mounts, and any companion/cohort/mount that is obtained via a class feature or feat.

Thus, any other non-Astral-Dancer creature that finds itself on the astral plane needs to pick a direction for gravity, and subsequently falls in that direction.

[1pwny]

The "Force of Will" movement rules are in the 3.0 MotP. Although the rules are listed under the Astral Plane, there is text in other sections of the MotP that suggests this movement mode is available in any plane with "no gravity" unless the plane's description says otherwise.

The 3.5 DMG mentions "Force of Will" but doesn't describe how it works. *IF* the 3.0 MotP rules are still valid for 3.5 games, then they should still work on "no gravity" planes described in the 3.5 DMG.

I proposed a slight tweak to the rules to reconcile the discrepancy between the 3.0 Astral Plane having "no gravity" and the 3.5 version having "subjective gravity": the ability to choose "no gravity" as a possible direction for "subjective gravity", as "no direction" is still a valid direction. Helio approved this house rule for the purposes of this contest, but if I understand her ruling correctly, it's restricted to only Astral Dancers.

To make things easier, consider Astral Dancers to have a class ability called "No Direction" at 1st level (not to be confused with BSB or NKOTB). And to set my mind at ease, you may want to consider that Astral Dancers can share this ability with familiars, animal companions, special mounts, and any companion/cohort/mount that is obtained via a class feature or feat.

Thus, any other non-Astral-Dancer creature that finds itself on the astral plane needs to pick a direction for gravity, and subsequently falls in that direction.

Spoiler: My build idea

Show

I was considering doing something along the lines of getting a custom demiplane (via staff of Genesis or whatever) with completely null gravity and anti-magic, then having my guy teleport people into the plane and beat them up.

I was more or less wondering if it would be possible to have a plane with no gravity where you can't use force of will.

Spoiler: On another note...

Show

How easily can I have an Artificer create a scroll of Genesis? Or a scroll of Word of Genesis? Can I do that before level 10?

[Darrin]

Ugh.

Insurmountable Problem #1: Solved.

And then, of course:

Insurmountable Problem #2: Aaaargh!

[Venger]

(speculation)

Hey could you edit your post? we don't talk about ideas on what we might do until after the reveal

[Thurbane]

Yeah, I've got nothing for this one.

I might volunteer to judge, depending on other commitments.

[Heliomance]

I proposed a slight tweak to the rules to reconcile the discrepancy between the 3.0 Astral Plane having "no gravity" and the 3.5 version having "subjective gravity": the ability to choose "no gravity" as a possible direction for "subjective gravity", as "no direction" is still a valid direction. Helio approved this house rule for the purposes of this contest, but if I understand her ruling correctly, it's restricted to only Astral Dancers.

To make things easier, consider Astral Dancers to have a class ability called "No Direction" at 1st level (not to be confused with BSB or NKOTB). And to set my mind at ease, you may want to consider that Astral Dancers can share this ability with familiars, animal companions, special mounts, and any companion/cohort/mount that is obtained via a class feature or feat.

Thus, any other non-Astral-Dancer creature that finds itself on the astral plane needs to pick a direction for gravity, and subsequently falls in that direction.

I was thinking more that anyone can pick "no direction" if they want, allowing them to "hover" in subjective gravity planes, but that possibly only Astral Dancers can then "fly" by force of will in that "no direction" gravity. Yes, it's homebrew, but it's needed to make this mess of a class function under 3.5 rules. Also it actually gives them something that no-one else can do.

I'd rather not have to think too much about how momentum works (or doesn't) on subjective gravity planes when you change the direction. Going from falling at 300ft/round and then turning off gravity really shouldn't make you stop moving, but... probably technically does, by RAW.