The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[khadgar567]

funy i agree with inevability( why you change your name stirge) on LA no way CL 20 spell like fly on any dms radar to long with out getting banned to oblivion

[Celestia]

Honestly, I think the Nightmare is one of those creatures that really shouldn't be played without homebrewing it. With nine RHD and a +4 LA, that's not getting bought off until ECL 40, which is atrociously bad. But I just don't know what else can be done. As is, it is clearly is not acceptable for ECL 9.


Also, I find it weird that they need UMD to use magic horseshoes.

[Inevitability]

Honestly, I think the Nightmare is one of those creatures that really shouldn't be played without homebrewing it. With nine RHD and a +4 LA, that's not getting bought off until ECL 40, which is atrociously bad. But I just don't know what else can be done. As is, it is clearly is not acceptable for ECL 9.

6 RHD, actually.

And yes, I agree that these things would be one-trick-hellponies at best, and game-wrecking monstrosities at worst. I have to assign some LA, though.

Also, I find it weird that they need UMD to use magic horseshoes.

Well, given that the entire point of the horseshoes is to turn normal horses in nightmare-like beings, it doesn't seem that weird to me. It's like spraying a water bottle at the ocean and being surprised it's not getting wetter.

[lord_khaine]

Well, given that the entire point of the horseshoes is to turn normal horses in nightmare-like beings, it doesn't seem that weird to me. It's like spraying a water bottle at the ocean and being surprised it's not getting wetter.

More like pouring a bag of salt in and being surprised the taste dont change?

[Flickerdart]

I'm going to assign +4, so that casters of equivalent level will at least be able to cast Call Nightmare themselves

Planar binding comes online at level 9. I think a +3 LA to bring nightmares up to 9th level is more than fair, considering that planar binding is a) just one of many powerful spells casters get at that level, and b) even with only planar binding, a spellcaster can have many creatures at his beck and call, while the PC nightmare will always be only one.

[Nifft]

Planar binding comes online at level 9. I think a +3 LA to bring nightmares up to 9th level is more than fair, considering that planar binding is a) just one of many powerful spells casters get at that level, and b) even with only planar binding, a spellcaster can have many creatures at his beck and call, while the PC nightmare will always be only one.

Maybe give the Nightmare a racial ability to show up already bound to a Wizard of the appropriate ECL, like an inverted Leadership feat.

(I would personally never allow a Nightmare without extensive homebrewing so putting an outrageous LA on them seems like it might be valid.)

[Celestia]

6 RHD, actually.

And yes, I agree that these things would be one-trick-hellponies at best, and game-wrecking monstrosities at worst. I have to assign some LA, though.



Well, given that the entire point of the horseshoes is to turn normal horses in nightmare-like beings, it doesn't seem that weird to me. It's like spraying a water bottle at the ocean and being surprised it's not getting wetter.

Well, dwarves can equip the belt of dwarvenkind, can't they? How's this really different?

[Inevitability]

Well, dwarves can equip the belt of dwarvenkind, can't they? How's this really different?

The benefits for a dwarf putting on the belt are really just bonuses to social interaction with dwarves, gnomes, and halflings, which isn't necessarily caused by the belt magically altering the wearer's physiology, though.

[Tiri]

Well, dwarves can equip the belt of dwarvenkind, can't they? How's this really different?

The Belt of Dwarvenkind doesn't turn you into a dwarf, for one thing.

[javcs]

The Nightmare is a fine example of a creature that should get tagged with the DM Caution marker.

For that matter, the Night Hag should probably get one too.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I suspect it'd be unplayable at LÁ+4, at least starting at ECL10.

Maybe +3 for a compromise?

[Mike Miller]

The Nightmare is a fine example of a creature that should get tagged with the DM Caution marker.

For that matter, the Night Hag should probably get one too.

I agree on this note completely. A DM that doesn't look closely enough could be in for a surprise.

[danielxcutter]

I agree - if the power came from stats or varied and obviously useful SLAs, then most DMs would easily see what they could do, but when the power comes from a few easily over-looked, extraordinarily strong abilities - a one-trick pony, so to speak(pun totally intended) - then it's easy to underestimate them and regret it later.

[Thurbane]

i"m going to throw my hat in the ring for either LA +4, or LA -0, for all the reasons already discussed.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also, they're one of the few creatures that can UMD Horseshoes of Flame and not look ridiculous.

Side note: An arcane caster who could UMD that would be insane.

Cut them out, and it is simply a solid LA+0. Least it's +0 instead of -0 through... poor, poor dragons...

Yup. It takes us centuries to attain the kind of power mortals can achieve by beating up some goblins. But we persevere.


For the record, I'm throwing my hat into the "Caution! marker" ring. I've even got the perfect character for it: ⚠️
Giving the nightmare +4⚠️ or +3⚠️ would probably make sense. The nightmare isn't going to be especially great against obstacles that etherealness and astral projection can't negate, but it will be plenty capable of negating a wide variety of obstacles with them.

[Inevitability]

Nightshade

Nightshades are high-level monsters that for once aren't outsiders or dragons. I don't recall them seeing much play, though they are interesting for being undead that lack a former living existence. They come in three flavors, ordered from stronger to weaker.

Nightcrawler

No, not this one. Nightcrawlers are undead purple worms, except they have a ton of spell-like abilities, energy drain, and some quality defensive abilities. The main issue? They've got 25 undead HD.

This means that nightcrawlers are thirteen points of BAB behind a fighter of equivalent level, which single-handedly closes the gap in melee ability between them. One shouldn't turn to their casting side either: nightcrawlers barely have anything worth mentioning at those levels. They don't even get to create undead: the best they can do is swallow people, energy drain them to death, spit out the corpses, and wait for them to become (free-willed, CR 3) ghouls.

Honestly, there's neat stuff here, but in the end I think this boils down to +0 vs. -0. For now I'll opt for the second, though perhaps the Playground's view on those matters is different.

Nightwalker

These slightly smaller (Huge) nightshades are humanoid instead, and presumably able to handle weapons. The question is whether that's desirable: they have only +10 BAB after all, which is far too little for a creature that's already Epic.

Perhaps their special abilities will help? Crush Item is just a fancy way to destroy loot, Evil Gaze is a moderate save-or-lose, but it's paralysis based and doesn't have a great range. The SLAs are almost identical to the nightcrawler, and in fact most of this creature is. Even so, it's underwhelming for an Epic character. -0 LA.

By the way, if you want a laugh I suggest reading its suggested tactics. It spends two rounds on grabbing an weapon and crushing it, then attacks the disarmed foe rather than focusing on the enemies that are still threats.

Nightwing

Last of this Unholy Trinity is the nightwing, an evil bird. They have the ability to drain the enchantment bonus from items they touch, which while surprisingly useful against stuff like a +1 Flaming Vorpal Spell Storing Greatsword of Speed in the hands of an enemy pouncebarian is otherwise just another way to destroy loot.

Again, same SLAs, except one of the only useful ones (Greater Dispel Magic at-will) is now gone as well.

From an ECL 17 creature, I'm going to have to expect more. -0 LA again.


Next are nymphs, which should be less overwhelming to rate.

[javcs]

I think they're all LA -0.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, uh, no. Just no. Anything with that many HD is a no. Maaaybe if they were Outsider HD and they had good racial casting... probably not even then, honestly.

Rule of thumb; if it has more HD than CR, it probably sucks.

[Celestia]

Those Nightwalkers were pretty nasty in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2. I know that doesn't help their stats here, but I still felt like saying that.

[Bavarian itP]

By the way, if you want a laugh I suggest reading its suggested tactics. It spends two rounds on grabbing an weapon and crushing it, then attacks the disarmed foe rather than focusing on the enemies that are still threats.

I don't think that's entirely fair, because it does this after it already (presumably) eliminated the enemy spellcasters with Quickened Unholy Blight and Finger of Death.

And since this is my first post in this thread, I'd like to thank you for your effort.

Those Nightwalkers were pretty nasty in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2. I know that doesn't help their stats here, but I still felt like saying that.

Yes, there is a difference between a nasty monster and a suitable player character.

[Inevitability]

I don't think that's entirely fair, because it does this after it already (presumably) eliminated the enemy spellcasters with Quickened Unholy Blight and Finger of Death.

Ignoring the fact that Death Ward has been available for ten levels by then, Finger of Death will at most have killed one caster (most parties have multiple). Even if everything goes great for the nightshade, the others will only be stunned, and the proper response to having a temporarily immobilized caster near you is not 'mess around with the fighter'.

[Celestia]

Ignoring the fact that Death Ward has been available for ten levels by then, Finger of Death will at most have killed one caster (most parties have multiple). Even if everything goes great for the nightshade, the others will only be stunned, and the proper response to having a temporarily immobilized caster near you is not 'mess around with the fighter'.

Well, the fighter's got full BAB which is pretty much just as good as spellcasting, so it's a horse a piece. *shrug*

[The Blade Wolf]

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2... wow. Doesn't that name bring back memories? I so wish the third game had been released T.T.

At it stands... I swear a lot of monsters would do much, much better if their HD was halved before being given to players to play.

[Random Sanity]

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2... wow. Doesn't that name bring back memories? I so wish the third game had been released T.T.

At it stands... I swear a lot of monsters would do much, much better if their HD was halved before being given to players to play.

Agreed. Any significant amount of racial HD (or LA, for that matter) tends to make a monster borderline unplayable as a PC, as they're going to be so far behind on class features that a comparable-HD stock race character will just roll over them. It's almost like rules for monster PCs were just put in the game as a deliberate "trap" to screw parties over with.

[danielxcutter]

Agreed. Any significant amount of racial HD (or LA, for that matter) tends to make a monster borderline unplayable as a PC, as they're going to be so far behind on class features that a comparable-HD stock race character will just roll over them. It's almost like rules for monster PCs were just put in the game as a deliberate "trap" to screw parties over with.

...you know, that's actually the best theory I've ever heard. Totally adopting that as my headcanon.

[GreatWyrmGold]

-snip-

Nightshades have some neat tricks (such as being enormous invisible monsters with a good Move Silently skill), but nothing which is particularly notable at level 17-25.

Well, the fighter's got full BAB which is pretty much just as good as spellcasting, so it's a horse a piece. *shrug*

I can't tell if you're serious or not.

Agreed. Any significant amount of racial HD (or LA, for that matter) tends to make a monster borderline unplayable as a PC, as they're going to be so far behind on class features that a comparable-HD stock race character will just roll over them. It's almost like rules for monster PCs were just put in the game as a deliberate "trap" to screw parties over with.

Less a trap, more an afterthought.

[The Blade Wolf]

Less a trap, more an afterthought.

Which is dumb. Because who wouldn't want to be a dragon?

[No brains]

Those Nightwalkers were pretty nasty in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2. I know that doesn't help their stats here, but I still felt like saying that.

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2... wow. Doesn't that name bring back memories? I so wish the third game had been released T.T.

At it stands... I swear a lot of monsters would do much, much better if their HD was halved before being given to players to play.

Dark Alliance 2 is what got me into TTRPGs. I had always thought they were interesting, but all the cool stuff I saw in that game really got my attention. I wouldn't be here if it weren't for Dorn's dual-wielding great swords and Borador's treasure cheese.

That derail said, it doesn't look like I'd want to play a nightshade. While HD-hoarding can be a way to bully the PC's abilities, it's just not how the PCs themselves play the game. Plus, Bordaor can kick their ass with stealth and hail of bolts.

[Nifft]

Nothing really to add, +/-0 seems accurate.

I've used some of them as monsters at least once. They're okay as monsters.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Which is dumb. Because who wouldn't want to be a dragon?

Clearly, not me.