The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Segev]

No, just twice as many undead cats as they could 1 HD skeletons. It's only rounded for the purpose of calculating something, which you're not doing.

While I appreciate the math you're doing here, I don't follow how calculating the number of HD of skeletons you control is not calculating something.

[Troacctid]

While I appreciate the math you're doing here, I don't follow how calculating the number of HD of skeletons you control is not calculating something.

There is calculation involved, but the HD come in afterwards—the limit is equal to 2 x your caster level. No fractions there to round.

[javcs]

I'm fairly certain that HD is not one of the places where fractions get rounded down. Of course ... it's not entirely clear that they should get rounded up either.


Consider the wording of the template:

"Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multi-classing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice."
"Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form."

"Base Attack/Grapple: Add the base attack bonus for the base animal to the base attack bonus of the base creature."
"Base Save Bonuses: Add the base save bonuses of the base animal to the base save bonuses of the base creature."
"Skills: A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its animal form, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.) Any skill given in the animal's description is a class skill for the lycanthrope's animal levels."
"Feats: Add the base animal's feats to the base creature's. If this results in a lycanthrope having the same feat twice, the lycanthrope gains no additional benefit unless the feat can normally be taken twice, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the lycanthrope more feats than a character of its Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any "extra" feats are denoted as bonus feats."
"Challenge Rating: By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of base animal. 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6."
"Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). In addition, a lycanthrope's character level is increased by the number of racial Hit Dice the base animal has."

"Racial Hit Dice: A lycanthrope adds the Hit Dice of its animal form to its base Hit Dice for race, level, and class. These additional Hit Dice modify the lycanthrope's base attack bonus and base saving throws accordingly."
"Racial Skills: A lycanthrope adds skill points for its animal Hit Dice much as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. It gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of the animal form. Any skills that appear in the animal's description are treated as class skills for the lycanthrope's animal levels. The lycanthrope's maximum skill ranks are equal to its animal form Hit Dice + its racial Hit Dice (if any) + its class levels +3."
"Racial Feats: Add the animal's Hit Dice to the base creature's own Hit Dice to determine how many feats the character has."

Everything suggests you get the full animal HD, however many that is. And all indications are that the minimum animal HD you get is 1. Or would anyone like to argue that using a fractional HD animal should result in a CR increase of +0? Because the CR increase is tethered to the amount of animal HD gained, and a CR increase of +1 is for 1 HD or 2 HD animals.


Also, there's no taking part of a level, you either have one or you don't.


Besides ... a "fractional HD" is treated as being a full HD for everything except calculating HP. Calculating skill points and maximum skill points, feats, base save bonuses, they're all calculated as though it's a full single HD. At least, so far as I can find examples of fractional HD, that is.
All the instances of fractional HD that I've found thus far are size Tiny or smaller. Not all of them have advancement in HD or size.
Fractional HD are basically HP penalties for extremely small and nominally fragile entities (although some with fractional HD have DR, so maybe not fragile ones).

[Troacctid]

I mean you could also interpret it as giving you a fractional hit die. In which case you'd end up with something like 4.5 hit dice. And then you would add your class levels, level adjustment, and racial hit dice together to determine your ECL, and the fraction would be rounded down in that calculation, so you would effectively gain xp and level up as if you didn't have the hit die.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd go with the interpretation that a fractional hit die is a full hit die with reduced maximum hp. That is, fractional HD are considered to be a special form of having 1 HD. As such, a human/cat lycanthrope would have 2 RHD: one humanoid, one animal.

[Caelestion]

I could understand a 1st-level werecat having one Animal HD, in addition to their class level, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I could understand a 1st-level werecat having one Animal HD, in addition to their class level, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have that.

Absolutely, I agree. If lycanthropy gets you the animal HD and that humanoid/giant HD you were hoping to trade in, the template probably deserves a lower level adjustment, because you have a minimum of two useless hit dice.

[Flickerdart]

No, just twice as many undead cats as they could 1 HD skeletons. It's only rounded for the purpose of calculating something, which you're not doing.

My cap is 2 * CL. I am calculating how many HD of undead I control. 1/2 HD + 1/2 HD is... 0 HD, according to your math.

[Caelestion]

My cap is 2 * CL. I am calculating how many HD of undead I control. 1/2 HD + 1/2 HD is... 0 HD, according to your math.

Not if you only round down at the end of the sum, as with fractional BAB/saves.

[Troacctid]

My cap is 2 * CL. I am calculating how many HD of undead I control.

The HD of the undead are not part of that calculation.

[Amidus Drexel]

There is calculation involved, but the HD come in afterwards—the limit is equal to 2 x your caster level.

This seems like the most reasonable interpretation.

You're capped at 2*CL HD - it doesn't matter if that's all in a single creature, several creatures with whole-number HD, or spread across 8*CL skeletal toads. Nothing in this calculation cares about integers, so leaving it as a fraction is fine. No rounding necessary.

[Flickerdart]

The HD of the undead are not part of that calculation.

The HD of the undead I control isn't part of the calculation for how many HD of undead I control? Did you misread my post and add a "can" where there wasn't a "can"?

[Inevitability]

Turned lycanthrope LA to a flat +1, regardless of whether it's the afflicted or natural version.

Also, debate on whether 0.5+0.5=0 should perhaps be moved to another thread.

[danielxcutter]

Turned lycanthrope LA to a flat +1, regardless of whether it's the afflicted or natural version.

Also, debate on whether 0.5+0.5=0 should perhaps be moved to another thread.

Move it. I have a feeling that it's not going to be short.

[Inevitability]

Magmin

Imagine a mayhem-minded toddler, except it's also on fire and spreading the fire to everything it touches, and you got the basic idea of magmins. Dwarf Fortress players may imagine a horde of fire imps instead.

Magmins have two elemental RHD, which are inferior to aristocrat hit dice but do come with a few welcome immunities. Just try not to die: True Resurrections are hard to come by. DR 5/magic and natural armor should hopefully help a bit here.

The little elementals have orc-level strength despite their small size. Their constitution score has a small bonus, their intelligence a penalty. Their natural weapons are a weak slam and a slightly less weak flaming touch, but both are made a bit more interesting by their Combustion ability: the 1d8 damage is apparently taken again each round for three to six rounds.

A magmin's Fiery Aura is more of a drawback than an advantage. It can't be turned off and requires people to stay 20 feet away from you or get burned. Especially in narrow dungeon corridors, this may cause trouble.

Finally, there's Melt Weapons, which apart from being nonsensical (how is something hot enough to melt adamantine but not to scorch wood?) is a very good way to destroy loot. Again, it can't be turned off.

All things considered, I think magmins just aren't that good an option. Various abilities of theirs are harmful to the party as a whole, their offensive traits just aren't that good, and the elemental type's immunities are obtainable in other ways as well. +0, with serious consideration given to -0.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The fact that they are called "lycanthrope" instead of "were-creature" automatically earns them a +20 LA as far as I'm concerned. Werewolves get a pass on this.

It's one of those misnomers that got baked into the fabric of our culture. Just gotta deal with it.

[Segev]

It's one of those misnomers that got baked into the fabric of our culture. Just gotta deal with it.

And while "therianthrope" is more appropriate, it sounds more sci-fi than fantasy, so...it's never going to catch on in D&D-esq works.

[No brains]

As far as flaming bozos go, who has the best heat powers? Azers, Magmins, or Salamanders?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Salamanders get an adorable d6/d8 damage and that is it (very favorable stat mods though). Magmin has a pile of options, but they are generally worse than free damage since they can either A: smack your allies or B: destroy loot. If you don't mind loot destruction then they have that going for them. Azer's heat deals a whopping 1 fire damage.

Magmin get the most, salamanders get one with no downside, and azers is just a foot note. Of the three I would pick salamander for a variety of reasons.

[No brains]

Salamanders get an adorable d6/d8 damage and that is it (very favorable stat mods though). Magmin has a pile of options, but they are generally worse than free damage since they can either A: smack your allies or B: destroy loot. If you don't mind loot destruction then they have that going for them. Azer's heat deals a whopping 1 fire damage.

Magmin get the most, salamanders get one with no downside, and azers is just a foot note. Of the three I would pick salamander for a variety of reasons.

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

[danielxcutter]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

Just one of the various atRAWcities - sorry, atrocities - that spring from WotC's poor wording.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

We don't have official tempts, but we do know salamanders can be actively surrounded by flame, so eh?

[Inevitability]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

For all it's worth, magmins are probably a bit hotter than salamanders. Their touch deals 1d8 fire damage, a salamander's only 1d6. In addition, magmins are hot enough to radiate harmful levels of heat whereas salamanders aren't.

Then again, a thoqqua's touch deals 2d6, and they can't melt weapons instantaneously either.

Before you ask, being able to melt weapons isn't related to having a heat aura either. Remorhazes can destroy weapons as well, yet they lack a heat aura.

[danielxcutter]

For all it's worth, magmins are probably a bit hotter than salamanders. Their touch deals 1d8 fire damage, a salamander's only 1d6. In addition, magmins are hot enough to radiate harmful levels of heat whereas salamanders aren't.

Then again, a thoqqua's touch deals 2d6, and they can't melt weapons instantaneously either.

Before you ask, being able to melt weapons isn't related to having a heat aura either. Remorhazes can destroy weapons as well, yet they lack a heat aura.

Um... maybe it's the way of applying heat and a natural affinity of weaponmaking?

Or maybe I could be shoving a load of cowdung, but I dunno. Maybe we should ask WizarOOOH WAIT A MOMENT

[GreatWyrmGold]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

I guess they control their heat better? Salamanders are orderly and lawful, magmins are destructive and maniacal.

[ZamielVanWeber]

For all it's worth, magmins are probably a bit hotter than salamanders. Their touch deals 1d8 fire damage, a salamander's only 1d6. In addition, magmins are hot enough to radiate harmful levels of heat whereas salamanders aren't.

Then again, a thoqqua's touch deals 2d6, and they can't melt weapons instantaneously either.

Before you ask, being able to melt weapons isn't related to having a heat aura either. Remorhazes can destroy weapons as well, yet they lack a heat aura.

Remoarhaz explicitly due it through heat and their heat is so great is can destroy anything, not just metal.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Remoarhaz explicitly due it through heat and their heat is so great is can destroy anything, not just metal.

...Your point being? Nobody said it wasn't connected to remorhaz heat, just that it wasn't connected to a heat aura.

[No brains]

So not only does heat irregularly melt weapons, it also does not radiate like it should?

Maybe it's all the displaced heat missing from all those light spells just scattered wherever.

[ZamielVanWeber]

...Your point being? Nobody said it wasn't connected to remorhaz heat, just that it wasn't connected to a heat aura.

Since you want to be pendantic: magmins do not destroy weapons through a heat aura either. Their aura is made of fire and their ability to melt weapons is independent of that. Shut off their firey aura and weapons will melt just fine unlike a remorhaz where it is explicitly their heat that is doing it.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe weapon destruction is done by concentrating their heat at one spot? I mean, the temperature to melt metal is really high, so maybe that's why heat auras don't melt weapons.