The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Segev]

I'll just chime in to suggest that perhaps the image is an artist's rendition, and the artist had never seen a Medusa quite that clearly (given that he is not petrified).

Or maybe at a distance of 30 ft. or more they have a non-(ex), non-(sp), and non-(su) effect that causes them to look totally human to all observers.

Or they just usually wear much more clothing and hide their snakes under hoods?

[Inevitability]

Or they just usually wear much more clothing and hide their snakes under hoods?

Their hands still look weird, though. Hell, even their eyes are clearly inhuman. I'm honestly not sure how to disguise a medusa as depicted aside from illusions, heavy makeup, and covering it with a blanket.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Everything but the gaze screams +0 to me honestly but that gaze is a game changer. It comes online sooner than defenses against it and does not have the convenient 24 hour immunity clause or daily usage limits so a medusa can easily roll through encounters against anyone vulnerable to her gaze attack. +2 seems better but this may want a warning attached.

[Inevitability]

Everything but the gaze screams +0 to me honestly but that gaze is a game changer. It comes online sooner than defenses against it and does not have the convenient 24 hour immunity clause or daily usage limits so a medusa can easily roll through encounters against anyone vulnerable to her gaze attack. +2 seems better but this may want a warning attached.

I'd like to point out that without Narrowed Gaze, any ally within 30 feet will be affected as well. Given that you don't want to be the only one on your side in melee with a medusa's chassis, there's probably going to be people you don't want to hurt in the gaze area.

[flare'90]

I'll just chime in to suggest that perhaps the image is an artist's rendition, and the artist had never seen a Medusa quite that clearly (given that he is not petrified).

Or the artist is a reptilian.

[No brains]

I guess one way you could level adjust for the medusa is to compare it to a creature that can be invisible all the time. If you can circumvent needing to see, you don't need to worry about being petrified. Although a medusa is fully visible and vulnerable if its more than a few moves away.

I wonder if you could optimize the run action along with your gaze so you can strafe enemies and stay in spots where it is awkward for them to retaliate.

[Inevitability]

I wonder if you could optimize the run action along with your gaze so you can strafe enemies and stay in spots where it is awkward for them to retaliate.

The problem is that it seems enemies only need to make saves against your gaze if you use it directly against them as a standard action, or if they start their turn within range. Moving near them and away again doesn't seem to work.

[Flickerdart]

The gaze is one of those things that is not so hard to defeat if you know about it ahead of time...but most monsters won't. Compare it to an ubercharger, who kills without a save if he can get a charge off. A knowledgeable foe can easily deny him a charge vector, rendering his power worthless. But the tactic is still valid because most enemies will not know it's coming until they're smeared across the dungeon floor.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Let us take a moment to wrap our collective minds around the fact that the abomination pictured above is, I quote, 'indistinguishable from a normal human at distances greater than 30 feet'. I'm fairly sure I'd be able to spot the difference, to be honest.

Maybe medusae usually wear really, really good makeup?

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Well, let's look at your suggestions:

1. Mana pool. Usually going to end up a form of de facto cooldown, and it doesn't let larger-scale things stay rare in use later on. It makes scarcity of ability use much harder to work out, because there's nothing to prevent someone from using only the big, flashy things or only the small, efficient things. And most will default to one or the other. So, people will not be using a lot of their abilities at all because they have no incentive to use the smaller effects over the larger effects, resulting in a large chunk of the abilities being dead space. There's also the matter that it's a number that will be constantly re-written over and over with every single ability used and it doesn't support preparation of abilities without getting more complicated than Vancian magic.

I'm not sure how it would "end up a form of de facto cooldown". Just...what? How? What? How are you imagining the mana system working?
I'm also not sure what the inherent problem of someone only using either big, flashy things or small, efficient things is. I mean, you need to design the spells with those possibilities in mind, but it's not like that's inherently more constricting or worse to play than the restrictions imposed by forcing players to use a few big, powerful spells and loads off little ones. If it matters that much, just design spells which can't just be replaced by versions with bigger numbers, or spells which work best when combined with other spells, or something.
The last sentence doesn't make sense. Care to elaborate on what the eff you're talking about? Why is ability preparation so much more complicated? Is addition really that terrifyingly complicated? For that matter, why is it important at all? (D&D is literally the only fantasy thing I've ever seen where preparing specific spells to use in a given day is a thing.)

2. Talisman/item-based magic. The DM has to place all those items and the players have to track all the ingredients. Every single item used has to be tracked and is a separate consumable, which makes it mind-numbingly complicated to make use of without defaulting to a Magic Mart. Because you have to track every single item by physically writing it down. And you have to give a list of ingredients for every single talisman/item in the entire game, no exceptions. It's also very external power, reliant on items that can be taken away with the players having little power to stop it, and it's temporary power as well, lasting only as long as you have the items to craft with.

You seem to assume that the system I'm describing involves players going into town and buying scrolls. That's...not what I described. I could repeat myself, but instead I'll provide an example of how it might work in play.

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DM: "After an eventful day of journeying, you find a nice clearing. You know that by tomorrow, you'll reach the Burning Desert; this could be your last chance to stock up on provisions."
Ranger: "Alright. We set up camp. I'll go hunting, and maybe make some more arrows if I have time."
Wizard: "Neat. What talismen will we need? Heat resistance, obviously, but what else?"
Druid: "We're all out of healing elixers. Could you spend some of your downtime helping me with those?"
Rogue: "I'll pitch in. I've got plenty of lockpicks, and my other knicknacks won't be much good in a desert temple. Hey, could you ship up some invisibility powder?"

It would require having players record what consumables they had made or used, yes, but is this really that much worse than having to record what spells they had prepared or cast?
And yeah, a **** DM could strip players of their power, and there's nothing the player could do. He could also take the fighter's weapons, the rogue's tools, or the wizard's spellbook, and force the cleric into moral catch-22's designed to make their god angry at them. Basically the only core classes which can't have their dominant abilities stripped away by a malicious DM are the monk and the sorcerer. And that's not getting into designing encounters and challenges to specifically negate players' abilities. There is no mechanical solution to jerk DMs who want to screw you over.

3. HP-based casting. This is the only one where I can give a direct reason why Gygax' vision would not let this happen. He wanted to have casters be extremely weak and easily killed early on. Having casting based on hit points leads to casters diving into getting as much health as they can without sacrificing spell strength. World of Warcraft(it constantly keeps happening with Warlocks) avoids the issues this causes by having the ability to actually survive being hit rely on armor, but the Chainmail-based system of OD&D doesn't play nice with large damage reduction. Because it eventually translates to "immunity to scratch damage." Which violates the "everything is always a threat" nature of OD&D because Gygax loved screwing over players.

So, wait. Mages need health, because they burn lots of health to cast spells. So mages use some unspecified method (I dunno, a wizard prestige class with d12 HD that got written in by an idiot intern?) to get lots of health...a lot of which they burn to cast spells. This means that they're still not going to have a lot of hit points to spare on getting hurt. The only difference is that a wizard can hold back their magical power and survive longer, which is...bad, somehow? Worse than the 24-hour workday?


And again, these are just the first ideas off the top of my head. It's not good enough to try to debunk them; even if you did better than you have, you wouldn't have proved that Gygax had to go with daily limits. You're engaging in what I like to think of as "the Creationist's Fallacy"—thinking that pointing out perceived flaws in alternate explanations/solutions proves that yours is best. It doesn't. I didn't ask "Why didn't Gygax pick X option?", I asked "Why did he pick daily limits?" Trying to answer this without touching on the strengths of daily-limit systems is deeply misguided.

[Celestia]

I have a question, though I feel I already know the answer. Could a Medusa, or any creature with a gaze attack, wear a veil or sunglasses to block it? This is often used in fantasy.

[danielxcutter]

I have a question, though I feel I already know the answer. Could a Medusa, or any creature with a gaze attack, wear a veil or sunglasses to block it? This is often used in fantasy.

I'm not sure, but if we go by common sense(which often disagrees with RAW), then it should work.

[Inevitability]

I have a question, though I feel I already know the answer. Could a Medusa, or any creature with a gaze attack, wear a veil or sunglasses to block it? This is often used in fantasy.

Any creature with a gaze attack can just turn it off if they want to. Adding a veil to the process is rather unnecessary.

If I misread and you were referring to the targets covering their eyes, they'd be protected normally (though also blinded).

[Caelestion]

Medusas tend to be written as having no control over their petrification, other than veils, sunglasses etc. Medusa herself (still active after death), the medusa student in OOTS and even the medusa in Planescape: Torment all have no such control.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Any creature with a gaze attack can just turn it off if they want to. Adding a veil to the process is rather unnecessary.

Good for style, though. And intimidation. Threatening to remove a veil is a nice, clear indication of what you're threatening to do.

[khadgar567]

+1 thanks to horendous picture but lets talk the tartaresque in the room what the actual f wizards smoking when they create these monsters i kinda want one so i can conqure the drug world

[Caelestion]

Like every other creatures from Classical mythology, they didn't invent medusas.

[Jormengand]

If I misread and you were referring to the targets covering their eyes, they'd be protected normally (though also blinded).

Of course, one could just use the Artemis Fowl method and use sunglasses which are see-through from the inside but reflective from the outside.

The problem being, of course, that those don't actually exist.

[danielxcutter]

Of course, one could just use the Artemis Fowl method and use sunglasses which are see-through from the inside but reflective from the outside.

The problem being, of course, that those don't actually exist.

Oh, you're a fan too? I loved that series.

[Caelestion]

Of course, one could just use the Artemis Fowl method and use sunglasses which are see-through from the inside but reflective from the outside.

The problem being, of course, that those don't actually exist.

Fairy physics has found a way around such primitive Mudfolk limitations.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fairy physics has found a way around such primitive Mudfolk limitations.

Random tangent: Given how often scientist-type characters are "punished" for trying to exploit or work around the rules of magic and/or meddling with forces they don't understand, I'd like to see some magicky-type characters get similarly punished for breaking laws of physics that they don't understand. Sadly, I can't think of anything good for asymmetrical reflectivity...

[Morphic tide]

Random tangent: Given how often scientist-type characters are "punished" for trying to exploit or work around the rules of magic and/or meddling with forces they don't understand, I'd like to see some magicky-type characters get similarly punished for breaking laws of physics that they don't understand. Sadly, I can't think of anything good for asymmetrical reflectivity...

Partial thermodynamics: For any force they create magically, they have to simultaneously create a specified fraction of the opposite. For example, flying magically would require them to exert a fixed fraction of their weight, increased when they move based on how fast they move, on something else. If nothing is in range, it's omnidirectional pressure on them. What's 10 atmospheres of pressure in PSI? Because at that point, it gets dangerous. And making a single cup of water boil might well cause instant hypothermia, and you'd flash freeze before getting anywhere with slagging iron.

Traditional magic users don't really notice because they've institutionalized dealing with it by applying this opposite force to the target of the spell, weakening it in exchange for having no backlash issues from it. The "muggleborn" who started popping up during the population explosion of the Industrial Revolution don't know this and might well have a high fatality rate from stuff like causing massive internal damage from tossing lightning and suddenly having a large positive charge in their body. Which means suddenly missing a bunch of electrons that are probably holding spmething important together.

However, there's advantages to this, too. If you can cast spells that do opposite things, like applying heat and cooling, then they end up much stronger due to venting the opposites into each other. You "pay off" the heat by upgrading the cold and vice versa. But you have to fully recognize what's going on to make it work out for even just lightning bolts or flight. Which means knowing about the science behind the forces involved.

A fun thing to do with portals in this case is to have them work by shortening the distance between two geometric planes, so the opposite is lengthening the distance, meaning you can delay an enemy charge while hastening an ally's movement. And intentionally-sloppy magic can increase the opposite force, allowing you to Fireball one person as you Cone of Cold a second.

[danielxcutter]

Random tangent: Given how often scientist-type characters are "punished" for trying to exploit or work around the rules of magic and/or meddling with forces they don't understand, I'd like to see some magicky-type characters get similarly punished for breaking laws of physics that they don't understand. Sadly, I can't think of anything good for asymmetrical reflectivity...

Cloud Chariot, a Wu Jen spell, allows 1-mile flight within a single round. If real-life physics were even remotely applied, then the sonic boom should liquidize the caster with in half a second.

[Remuko]

Cloud Chariot, a Wu Jen spell, allows 1-mile flight within a single round. If real-life physics were even remotely applied, then the sonic boom should liquidize the caster with in half a second.

You must go roughly 670 MPH to make a sonic boom. 1 mill in 6 seconds is only 600 miles per hour. No sonic boom. Still probably fatal.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You must go roughly 670 MPH to make a sonic boom. 1 mill in 6 seconds is only 600 miles per hour. No sonic boom. Still probably fatal.

That assumes a constant speed. If the caster spends any time accelerating or decelerating, the peak speed is going to need to be higher. If they spent three seconds accelerating at a constant acceleration and three decelerating, the peak speed would be 1200 mph, and the acceleration would be just over 18 G (thanks, Wolfram Alpha!). That's not necessarily lethal on its own, if you're accelerating in the right direction, but air friction would probably rub you the wrong way.

[No brains]

It's weird when teleporting makes more physics sense.

[Zancloufer]

You must go roughly 670 MPH to make a sonic boom. 1 mill in 6 seconds is only 600 miles per hour. No sonic boom. Still probably fatal.

It's actually about 766 MPH, or 1224 KMH to reach the speed of sound as it's about 334 m/s at sea level.

Though on the flip side Internets says you only need to go 670 MPH / 1088 KPH to make a sonic boom. Which is actually 90% of the speed of sound (~300 m/s).

It's weird when teleporting makes more physics sense.

Mostly because we don't actually understand it and most attempts at explaining it involved folding some of the 11 dimensions or just de-materializing the subject in question.

[Inevitability]

That assumes a constant speed. If the caster spends any time accelerating or decelerating, the peak speed is going to need to be higher. If they spent three seconds accelerating at a constant acceleration and three decelerating, the peak speed would be 1200 mph, and the acceleration would be just over 18 G (thanks, Wolfram Alpha!). That's not necessarily lethal on its own, if you're accelerating in the right direction, but air friction would probably rub you the wrong way.

It's not unreasonable to assume the spell moves the air around you as well. That way, you still have to deal with the acceleration issues, but the effects of air friction would be lessened, if not negated.

[danielxcutter]

I still stand by my opinion that Cloud Chariot wouldn't exactly be the safest way of transportation, if physics were applied. Even considering that by RAW, a 20th-level martial character has enough hit points to survive falling from orbit, the acceleration from CC would likely be dangerous. Fatal? Maybe not. Painful? Yes.

[Celestia]

The number of G forces the human body can withstand relies entirely on the orientation that they are being applied. Imagine a person standing straight. If they move up, a trained foghter pilot can withstand up to 9 Gs. Moving down, you get about 3 Gs before your eyes explode. Moving forward, however, let's you survive up to 45 Gs, though not necessarily uninjured. Assuming this spell moves you forward, the acceleration is well within the range of survivability, and the only issue is getting flayed by air resistance. So, assuming that magical flight takes care of that part, the spell is actually perfectly fine, so long as you don't use it to rocket upwards.

[danielxcutter]

The number of G forces the human body can withstand relies entirely on the orientation that they are being applied. Imagine a person standing straight. If they move up, a trained foghter pilot can withstand up to 9 Gs. Moving down, you get about 3 Gs before your eyes explode. Moving forward, however, let's you survive up to 45 Gs, though not necessarily uninjured. Assuming this spell moves you forward, the acceleration is well within the range of survivability, and the only issue is getting flayed by air resistance. So, assuming that magical flight takes care of that part, the spell is actually perfectly fine, so long as you don't use it to rocket upwards.

"Perfectly fine" in terms of mortality rate, perhaps, but honestly there are less painful ways of travel, even if you don't include teleportation. In a normal game, though, such factors are irrelevant, so it's not terrible in a situation where teleportation is unavailable. I'm pretty that's literally the fastest flight speed available with a single ability.