Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Vaz]

Is Bring on 9th edition too early for a thread title?

Hahaha holy **** 9th edition sucks balls. It's hard to pin down one actual thing I hate about it, but it's as jarring as going from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar. And considering that 40K was already fluid and fast, to **** up THAT badly takes a lot of getting used to. Maybe, when I've played more than a half dozen games, with some different armies, but damn, it's like playing Sunday league football as a Premier League player.

8th edition is quite frankly a game for simpletons.

[Blackhawk748]

Is Bring on 9th edition too early for a thread title?

Hahaha holy **** 9th edition sucks balls. It's hard to pin down one actual thing I hate about it, but it's as jarring as going from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar. And considering that 40K was already fluid and fast, to **** up THAT badly takes a lot of getting used to. Maybe, when I've played more than a half dozen games, with some different armies, but damn, it's like playing Sunday league football as a Premier League player.

8th edition is quite frankly a game for simpletons.

Ya, the Indexes really simplified things, like insanely. Once the Codexes come out it should get better.

[Cheesegear]

8th edition is quite frankly a game for simpletons.

Oh noes. Five people I haven't seen in years have come back to hobby 'cause it's less complicated. Oh nooo...
Our group only lost one player because of the change - surprise, he played Eldar and Tau in 6th and 7th.

[Vaz]

Keeping Up With The Kardashians is accessible and simple. Doesn't mean it's any good.

[Blackhawk748]

Keeping Up With The Kardashians is accessible and simple. Doesn't mean it's any good.

Kings of War is accessible and simple, doesnt mean its bad. I agree that they cut to much, cuz right now theres no reason not to spam the crap out of your best unit (see Guard and Heavy Weapons squads) but its not a bad core to work off of, because for the first time in...ever actually, most of the Ork units are viable.

[Vaz]

Kings of War is accessible and simple, doesnt mean its bad. I agree that they cut to much, cuz right now theres no reason not to spam the crap out of your best unit (see Guard and Heavy Weapons squads) but its not a bad core to work off of, because for the first time in...ever actually, most of the Ork units are viable.

Eldar were viable. Tau were viable. Space Marines were viable. The only reason they were viable was because of appropriately costed units, and even among them, there are some units to never see use, because they were too expensive for what they did; Hunter tanks, Assault Marines etc).

Orks weren't viable because they had utterly **** rules. Orks were not unviable, because of the core game rules. A new codex would have fixed Orks. It didn't need a new edition to fix Orks, and anyone who thinks otherwise should probably stick with the simplicity of 8E. Orks are only viable currently until GW screws up their next codex.

40K was never complicated to begin with. Games Workshop went overboard with clarifying things needlessly. Take out the pictures, USR's, weapon profiles, psychic disciplines, etc, lore, ridiculously large text and images, buildings, full page money shot spreads, and the niche little rules, overly wordy fluffy wording, stop repeating themselves half a dozen times, and you've got a book that's probably a little over 40-50pages long, to encompass the entirety of 7th edition rules.

Here's 7th edition;
1. Definitions of Models and Units
2. Modifiers+Rerolls, how to measure, what d6/d3 means
4. Movement Phase; Move 6", Difficult & Dangerous Terrain.
5. Psychic Phase; Knowing Powers, Generating Powers, Casting Powers, Resisting Powers
6. Shooting Phase; Declare, Select Weapons in unit, roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save.
7. Morale; When to take morale, how to take morale, how to recover morale.
8. Assault Phase. Charge Phase. Otherwise, see above. Challenges.
9. Example Weapon Profiles
10. Unit Types and Exceptions.

So difficult.

[Blackhawk748]

Eldar were viable. Tau were viable. Space Marines were viable. The only reason they were viable was because of appropriately costed units, and even among them, there are some units to never see use, because they were too expensive for what they did; Hunter tanks, Assault Marines etc).

Orks weren't viable because they had utterly **** rules. Orks were not unviable, because of the core game rules. A new codex would have fixed Orks. It didn't need a new edition to fix Orks, and anyone who thinks otherwise should probably stick with the simplicity of 8E. Orks are only viable currently until GW screws up their next codex.
.

Most melee armies werent viable. For Khornes sake the only reason GSC and World Eaters worked was because they got one off exceptions to the rules (Genestealers getting to DS right in your face and assault and World Eaters getting to move twice in the same turn) Assault armies didnt work right last edition and that was regardless of Codex.

40K was never complicated to begin with. Games Workshop went overboard with clarifying things needlessly. Take out the pictures, USR's, weapon profiles, psychic disciplines, etc, lore, ridiculously large text and images, buildings, full page money shot spreads, and the niche little rules, overly wordy fluffy wording, stop repeating themselves half a dozen times, and you've got a book that's probably a little over 40-50pages long, to encompass the entirety of 7th edition rules.

Here's 7th edition;
1. Definitions of Models and Units
2. Modifiers+Rerolls, how to measure, what d6/d3 means
4. Movement Phase; Move 6", Difficult & Dangerous Terrain.
5. Psychic Phase; Knowing Powers, Generating Powers, Casting Powers, Resisting Powers
6. Shooting Phase; Declare, Select Weapons in unit, roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save.
7. Morale; When to take morale, how to take morale, how to recover morale.
8. Assault Phase. Charge Phase. Otherwise, see above. Challenges.
9. Example Weapon Profiles
10. Unit Types and Exceptions.

So difficult.

So what 8th ed is. Seriously, you just described 8th ed.

[Vaz]

Most melee armies werent viable. For Khornes sake the only reason GSC and World Eaters worked was because they got one off exceptions to the rules (Genestealers getting to DS right in your face and assault and World Eaters getting to move twice in the same turn) Assault armies didnt work right last edition and that was regardless of Codex.

Wait, what, you're saying that certain rules allowed armies to compete? Well blow me. Isn't that what I said?

So what 8th ed is. Seriously, you just described 8th ed.

No, it isn't. 7th Ed with the extraneous stuff stripped out and put into the Codices does not remotely match 8th. Or did you read what you want to read?

[Blackhawk748]

Wait, what, you're saying that certain rules allowed armies to compete? Well blow me. Isn't that what I said?


No, it isn't. 7th Ed with the extraneous stuff stripped out and put into the Codices does not remotely match 8th. Or did you read what you want to read?

Two. It allowed two melee armies to compete and only by snapping core rules over their knees.

ANd ya, ya it is. 8th has had just about every extraneous rule ripped out of it. There are no USRs, there are no Psychic Disciplines, there is no fluff in the rule bits AFAICT and the turn sequence is basically as you just mentioned it.

[Vaz]

Two. It allowed two melee armies to compete and only by snapping core rules over their knees.

Precisely. It allowed two core armies to bypass the limitations of melee combat. Ergo, if Orks had those rules, they could melee better. What point are you making here? Certain armies with access to certain rules can beat limitations. Appropriate Costs, with appropriate rules = capable armies, like Eldar/Tau/Space Marines.

Ta Da.

ANd ya, ya it is. 8th has had just about every extraneous rule ripped out of it. There are no USRs, there are no Psychic Disciplines, there is no fluff in the rule bits AFAICT and the turn sequence is basically as you just mentioned it.

Where are the Armour Value's? Ergo, 7th Ed =/= 8th Ed. 8th cannot ever "=" 7th edition, because the rules are different. 7th ed rulebook was overbloated with nonesence. If 8th ed was 7th edition with a decentralised ruleset, it would be better. But it's not. It's 8th edition, with 8th edition rules. And 8th edition rules are ****ing easy mode rules to let children play, rather than allowing for tactical nuance that 7th Ed allowed. Because who gives a **** about flanking? Who cares about terrain? 8th Ed doesn't.

[Blackhawk748]

Precisely. It allowed two core armies to bypass the limitations of melee combat. Ergo, if Orks had those rules, they could melee better. What point are you making here? Certain armies with access to certain rules can beat limitations. Appropriate Costs, with appropriate rules = capable armies, like Eldar/Tau/Space Marines.

Ta Da.

By breaking a Core rule. If you have to break a Core rule to be good at your job, something is wrong with the ruleset.

Also did you not see anything about Eldar in 7th? They werent appropriately costed with appropriate rules. They were OP pieces of trash, Tau were competitive by abusing Riptide wing, and Space Marines got to play a 1850 point game with 2500 points of stuff.

Ya, great stuff there.

Where are the Armour Value's? Ergo, 7th Ed =/= 8th Ed. 8th cannot ever "=" 7th edition, because the rules are different. 7th ed rulebook was overbloated with nonesence. If 8th ed was 7th edition with a decentralised ruleset, it would be better. But it's not.

So one thing is gone, and it needed to go frankly. Vehicles where suffering terribly and didnt work unless you bought like 5+. And 8th is not filled with overbloated nonsense, great how that works doesnt it?

It's 8th edition, with 8th edition rules. And 8th edition rules are ****ing easy mode rules to let children play, rather than allowing for tactical nuance that 7th Ed allowed. Because who gives a **** about flanking? Who cares about terrain? 8th Ed doesn't.

Bwahahahahaha, you're serious arent you? We're talking about the Edition that you could predict who won by looking at the lists with a 90% success rate. "Tactics" didnt exist in 7th, it was "Bring your net list, or die". And 8th cares more about Terrain than 7th, cuz Bikes cant be on the second story of ruins anymore unless there are stairs and flanking is now easier to actually freaking accomplish because im not rolling to see what flank i show up on and the units that flank are actually worth the ink used to print their rules.

[Requizen]

And 8th edition rules are ****ing easy mode rules to let children play, rather than allowing for tactical nuance that 7th Ed allowed. Because who gives a **** about flanking? Who cares about terrain? 8th Ed doesn't.

Hahahah what the **** are you even talking about. 7th ed was a mess and all but unplayable at the highest levels unless you abused completely broken rules. It was unfun at middling, game night levels because a third of the armies in the game had to actively gimp themselves so they didn't steamroll over the rest, and the bottom third lost most of their games even when they were trying hard vs casual lists.

Positioning is nearly 100% more important. Not in having to space out your models to mitigate blasts (which was stupid and time consuming), but in that with how charges, pile ins, and deep strikes work now your troop positioning can win or lose you the game by inches. Sometimes even less.

Terrain is as important or potentially more than it was in 7th. Since it actively interacts with AP in a way that it didn't before, it's more useful for more units.

7th was easier than this. All you had to do was take Eldar, or 9 Riptides, or a bunch of SM characters, or a Daemon army that starts the game with 29 Warp Dice and then summons more. There was no thought, it was only "did I roll Invis and get my psychic powers off? Good game." Last edition was a joke of an edition if you paid attention at all to the rules and if you didn't, then the changes don't freaking matter because if you weren't trying hard to game/break the rules then it doesn't matter what the ruleset is like. Does AV becoming high wound count really just shatter your sense of immersion? Oh no, now guns go from rolling Pen to rolling Wound! The horror!

Keeping Up With The Kardashians is accessible and simple. Doesn't mean it's any good.

There are plenty of games out there with multiple rulebooks that require months of learning to master and are complete garbage. Any number of board games that come with 20 page rules only to be never picked up because they suck.

Is it really so bad that you don't have to memorize 30 pages of special rules that nobody even uses half the time before you can play? I've done almost a dozen games of 8th so far and we haven't cracked the rulebook to look stuff up more than like once per game, and we haven't had a single argument over rules interactions. That would come up per turn in 7th. Good riddance.

[Vaz]

By breaking a Core rule. If you have to break a Core rule to be good at your job, something is wrong with the ruleset.

K.

Also did you not see anything about Eldar in 7th? They werent appropriately costed with appropriate rules. They were OP pieces of trash, Tau were competitive by abusing Riptide wing, and Space Marines got to play a 1850 point game with 2500 points of stuff.

Yes. Eldar were OP because they got OP rules. How is that an issue with the core rules?

So one thing is gone, and it needed to go frankly. Vehicles where suffering terribly and didnt work unless you bought like 5+. And 8th is not filled with overbloated nonsense, great how that works doesnt it?

K.

Bwahahahahaha, you're serious arent you? We're talking about the Edition that you could predict who won by looking at the lists with a 90% success rate. "Tactics" didnt exist in 7th, it was "Bring your net list, or die". And 8th cares more about Terrain than 7th, cuz Bikes cant be on the second story of ruins anymore unless there are stairs and flanking is now easier to actually freaking accomplish because im not rolling to see what flank i show up on and the units that flank are actually worth the ink used to print their rules.

I can't believe that I'm having to spoon feed the concept that there is literally no benefit to actually outflanking in a game where there are no facing rules.

And you think 8th edition will be any worse? Everyones complaints "this codex sucks" or "this codex is OP" is because the Codex sucks or is OP not because the core rules sucks. You're saying that the Combustion Engine sucks because Lada's cannot match Ferrari's. You're having a ****ing giggle.

@Requizen; the same with 7th Edition, I rarely had to check up rules mid game. I dunno, what do you want me to say, "Learn to play, scrub?" 7th edition wasn't difficult, and when I played regularly could pretty much quote a codex for you.

You go on to say that 7th Ed wasn't fun at middling level, and then go on to say about "spacing models out for blasts". If you spend your entire game spreading out your models so that they're at 1" to the micron from one another, no **** it's time consuming. And the number of games I've had, especially in 30K where important combats have come down to Pile In moves with characters, like getting Sevatar in perfect position, etc, I've run out of hands on. If 7th edition is a cancer for you, then all I can suggest that maybe it's the people you play with, and that in time 8th edition will become much the same. With Broken as **** rules and a Microtransactions from Games Workshop eating up your weekly allowance.

7th Edition was broken thanks to poor codex. Core rules were fine. Like 30K was fine until Book 2 released, then Book 3, and eventually Book 4 just blew any semblence of balance and restraint out the window.

[Blackhawk748]

K.

Your deep and nuanced rebuttal shatters my argument.

I can't believe that I'm having to spoon feed the concept that there is literally no benefit to actually outflanking in a game where there are no facing rules.

Frankly we are talking about two different things. Flanking an individual unit only mattered if it was a vehicle. Flanking units against your opponents army is now reliable and significantly better.

[Requizen]

7th Edition was broken thanks to poor codex. Core rules were fine.

Sure, core rules were fine. Other than Invisibility being broken and more than half the other powers being pointless. And certain unit types being 100x stronger than others. And vehicles being all but pointless unless they were Superheavy. And Stomps. And Gargantuans in general. And how Independent Characters interacted with one another. And how the Allies matrix was a mess, making certain armies way better than others before even popping open a Codex. And templates being really stupid. And how the core rules completely ****ed over combat armies. And how Deep Strike was unreliable to the point of uselessness unless you had Drop Pods. And how there was a massive USR section but about half of them almost never even came up. And how terrain was totally stupid.

But yeah, if you ignore all the terrible things, it was fine.

I can't believe that I'm having to spoon feed the concept that there is literally no benefit to actually outflanking in a game where there are no facing rules.

I can't believe I have to explain how positioning is important in a tactics and strategy game to someone who claims to know how to play them.

If you can't the necessity of positioning, flanking, and board control without the context of vehicle facings, maybe you're just bad at the game?

@Requizen; the same with 7th Edition, I rarely had to check up rules mid game. I dunno, what do you want me to say, "Learn to play, scrub?"

I can quote the rulebook backwards and forwards to you. I can recite the Necron codex by heart. And yet there were enough interactions that the top tables at tournaments, people who literally play dozens times more games than either of us and win money for it, still break out the rules to contest things. That's not a good ruleset.

You go on to say that 7th Ed wasn't fun at middling level, and then go on to say about "spacing models out for blasts". If you spend your entire game spreading out your models so that they're at 1" to the micron from one another, no **** it's time consuming.

Those are two different examples, if the paragraph break wasn't enough of an indicator.

It wasn't fun for any level of play other than "screw thinking too hard let's just put whatever on the table and roll dice". And 8th is even better for that.

So far the only actual arguments you've had are "it's less complex" - which is a good thing - and that vehicle facings and AV are gone. Vehicles sucked. Long live new vehicles.

[Vaz]

"But specific rules are better than general rules".

Yeah, you expect a nuanced response to that?

@Requizen - you're missing the wood for the trees.

[Requizen]

"But specific rules are better than general rules".

Yeah, you expect a nuanced response to that?

Frankly, yes. Specific rules are much better than general, because the design of different units means that they interact with similar rules in different ways. When you apply the same rule to a dozen completely different units with different roles, weapons, and profiles, that one general rule is going to work in a dozen different ways. You write a rule to be general, but it's broken as heck on unit X and completely useless on unit Y because they're wildly different. Not to mention what happens when you update that rule with a new edition or FAQ and it shifts all those units in various directions that you don't expect.

With specific rules, you can design each unit to work exactly as you want it to without building around a rule that was designed for a unit in a different army. The unit has the rules it has because it's designed that way. Simple, better. You can understand each unit for what it's supposed to do and it should do it well.

In what way are general rules better than that?

@Requizen - you're missing the wood for the trees.

And you're ignoring the pile of poop in the middle of the room because the TV's on.

[Forum Explorer]

7th was garbage. I literally could not take my favorite army (Eldar) against my cousin's favorite army (Tyranids) and have a fun game. Now I can. Simply changing the core rules has fixed that problem. Because the army's rules are almost a direct translation, and there are very few new things in each army, just new rules for old units. But now my cousin can rock a melee focused, swarm Tyranid list, and he's having a blast.

And yeah, many of the problems with 7th were in the core rules. Such as

Psychic Phase: It was garbage with some powers being insanely OP, and others not being worth the risk of getting perils. And selection was random. Oh, and there was no real counter to them besides a few very specific units.

Cover: It was simply too easy to get, with no middle ground between being too good for some and absolutely essential for others.

Stealth/Shrouded: You know what's a lot of fun? Facing opponents with a 2+ cover save pretty much always with only a few things in your army (if you're lucky and well prepared) that ignore it.

Jink: Hey let's give every flyer, bike, and skimmer a 4+ cover save! And then we'll give a bunch of those units ways to improve that cover save even more!

Rerolling armor saves: So many times I had to deal with 2+ rerolling saves. It was stupidly easy to get for way too many armies. And of course, few armies actually had counters to that since it was often an invulnerable or cover save.

Morale: It basically didn't exist for a lot of armies. The majority of the good ones anyways.

Redundant USRs: Why did we need both Zealot and Fearless? Or Slow and Purposeful and Relentless? They are almost the same bloody rule.

Vehicles: Either garbage because they can die in one shot (I hope you enjoyed that 250+ point land raider), or impossible to deal with because you lack appropriate anti-tank measures.

Monstrous Creatures: Better then vehicles in every way. And lots of them really shouldn't have been MCs.

Super-Heavies: Fix the problem of vehicles dying too easily, by making them even harder to kill. Great! Sucks for armies that lack good reliable anti-tank though.

Flyers: Almost nothing other then a flyer has skyfire! Enjoy being forced to snap-shot nearly everything at it to do even a little damage. And remember, they all have Jink as well, to make them even harder to kill!

Allies: Amazing for the Imperium since they can ally freely with each other. Everyone else can suck it.


So yeah, 8th may be a little oversimplified. But I no longer spend over an hour shooting at a single unit, that through all their rerolls, FNP rolls, and Look Out Sirs takes forever to kill just one guy. If you're playing ITC and the overpowered combo Deathstar has been slightly nerfed.

[Cheesegear]

Had my requisite first game against 8th Ed. Dark Eldar Ynnari. No Dark Eldar Wraithknights. But there were Dark Eldar Wraithguard. Warriors in Gunboats, Wyches in Venoms. Scourges for Deep Strike, and Asuryani Rangers for Sniper, and of course; The Yncarne.

Was extremely brutal, and Soulburst on Dark Eldar Drukhari is just as broken as it was in 7th, not even mentioning the Wraithguard. At the top of Turn 4, I was four VPs up, and I said "If I don't kill The Yncarne this turn, I lose." I got it down to 1 Wound...By the bottom of Turn 5, I was tabled.

Scouts are set up at the beginning of the game, not in the middle of Turn 1. This gives Scouts a proper Move Phase. This makes Knife-Scouts extremely good, as they'll only have to make a 3" Charge. If I have a full squad of 10 - and I go first - I can put a unit of Scouts on almost any Objective on the board. That's really helpful. Lysander sucks. Assault Terminators are not as good as normal Terminators with a Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon. Stormravens and Stormtalons are great. Death Company kick arse.
...Unfortunately, Soulbursting Wraithguard will wreck your face. The Ynarne giving itself a second Fight phase will wreck your face.

So...Yeah. Ynnari are real good. I can say firsthand that that is the case, instead of just being a nerd reading a book and recognising what's good. All for the low, low price of 'No Coven Units'.

[boomwolf]

Well, the answer to yannari is threat management
What you want is to avoid killing stuff as much as possible, and instead cripple their units by reducing their numbers-then once they got crippled you want to take out multiple units in a single shooting/combat action (splitting your shots/swings from a single unit into two/three of his)
If you split an attack and kill multiple units, it happens at once so no soulburst.

And also, crippled units cover less ground, so they lose soulburst coverage, getting less applicable units, and in addition the crippled unit itself gains less from the soulburst.


Just as much as the yannari tried to maximize his soulbursts, you want to minimize them.

[Cheesegear]

Just as much as the yannari tried to maximize his soulbursts, you want to minimize them.

Yeah, thanks. In the real world my opponent destroys one of my units, gets another attack, then kills another unit, then the next unit gets to Soulburst, etc. and I have nothing to do with it. There's nothing you can do in your opponent's turn to prevent Soulburst, and your opponent is going to make sure that his best units - yes, plural (e.g; Wraithguard and Scourges) are going to get two Shooting phases to your one.

When The Ynarne focuses down one Character, murders it, Soulbursts immediately, and then attacks the unit next to it, kills that unit, too. What's your suggestion, there, then? So...Don't Charge? Let him Charge me? ...Just kidding. A Ynnari player will always spend CPs to interrupt with his Yncarne.

It's not possible to minimise the opponent's turn. Well, aside from how you normally do it. Except you're not supposed to destroy units in your turn, either.

ION;
I think I found the first 8th Ed. Core Rule that I actually don't like; You can't shoot a Character if you can see an enemy unit that's currently locked in combat and it's closer. Even though the unit is locked in combat and not a viable target anyway, you still can't shoot the Character. Apparently it's already been FAQ'd, and yes, this is the correct interpretation of the rule.

[Wraith]

Well, it's just one guy, right? How much trouble could he be possibly be?

Spoiler

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[Theodoric]

ION;
I think I found the first 8th Ed. Core Rule that I actually don't like; You can't shoot a Character if you can see an enemy unit that's currently locked in combat and it's closer. Even though the unit is locked in combat and not a viable target anyway, you still can't shoot the Character. Apparently it's already been FAQ'd, and yes, this is the correct interpretation of the rule.

I get that it's maybe a bit weird, but else it'd be really easy to deprive characters of their shields by simply charging in a sacrificial unit. Just charge a Rhino at a Horde of Boyz and somehow it becomes transparent enough for you to unleash all your heavy weapons on the warboss standing behind it. You could even get that done with Stealth Suits and the like.

[Cheesegear]

I get that it's maybe a bit weird, but else it'd be really easy to deprive characters of their shields by simply charging in a sacrificial unit. Just charge a Rhino at a Horde of Boyz and somehow it becomes transparent enough for you to unleash all your heavy weapons on the warboss standing behind it. You could even get that done with Stealth Suits and the like.

Not really. Since the Charge Phase comes after Shooting. Your 'sacrificial' unit would have to survive two rounds of combat, and your opponent would have to do basically nothing with their Character on their turn. Then it would come back around and time for you to shoot.

[lord_khaine]

Still think it would be to easy to pick characters off now they no longer are able to join units. It would certainly make it a lot harder for them to get said units in under their buffing aura, without eating a handful of heavy weapon shots. It is something that would be a huge nerf to anyone that offers either a durability boost or a melee boost. So i do think its working as intended.

[Cheesegear]

Still think it would be to easy to pick characters off now they no longer are able to join units.

I can actually tell you the specific date that people stopped thinking that. Which was almost two months ago.

But, here's how the rule goes...
You can't shoot an enemy unit locked in combat. Cool.
Can I shoot the Character that's standing over there, then? What do you mean, 'No'?
Because the enemy unit you're not allowed to shoot at, is closer.
So, you're not allowed to shoot the unit, and you're not allowed to shoot the Character, even if said Character isn't even in combat and actually should be a viable target, because the closest unit isn't.

...Basically, a Character's job is to stand around handing out buffs (if he's not in the combat, he can't be attacked, and turns out, he can't be shot at, either, basically making a Character immune to damage), while units do all the heavy lifting - take that HeroHammer - and Snipers are essentially mandatory if your Faction has access to them.

[lord_khaine]

I can actually tell you the specific date that people stopped thinking that. Which was almost two months ago.

But, here's how the rule goes...
You can't shoot an enemy unit locked in combat. Cool.
Can I shoot the Character that's standing over there, then? What do you mean, 'No'?
Because the enemy unit you're not allowed to shoot at, is closer.
So, you're not allowed to shoot the unit, and you're not allowed to shoot the Character, even if said Character isn't even in combat and actually should be a viable target, because the closest unit isn't.

...Basically, a Character's job is to stand around handing out buffs (if he's not in the combat, he can't be attacked, and turns out, he can't be shot at, either, basically making a Character immune to damage), while units do all the heavy lifting - take that HeroHammer - and Snipers are essentially mandatory if your Faction has access to them.

Well.. i on the other hand can tell you the actual relevance of the link you provided to the post you quoted. Because its a nice round 0
That link has nothing to do with my post, that mainly focused on that it would be to hard for a lot of heroes to do their job, if units engaged in melee no longer provided cover for heroes.

And thanks for providing a overview over how the rule works. Though its really not nececary. I suspect everyone already did know how the shooting and targeting rules work. And it wont change my stance on the subject. That its working as intended because otherwise it would get to easy to murder characters.

[Turalisj]

Had my requisite first game against 8th Ed. Dark Eldar Ynnari. No Dark Eldar Wraithknights. But there were Dark Eldar Wraithguard. Warriors in Gunboats, Wyches in Venoms. Scourges for Deep Strike, and Asuryani Rangers for Sniper, and of course; The Yncarne.

Was extremely brutal, and Soulburst on Dark Eldar Drukhari is just as broken as it was in 7th, not even mentioning the Wraithguard. At the top of Turn 4, I was four VPs up, and I said "If I don't kill The Yncarne this turn, I lose." I got it down to 1 Wound...By the bottom of Turn 5, I was tabled.

Scouts are set up at the beginning of the game, not in the middle of Turn 1. This gives Scouts a proper Move Phase. This makes Knife-Scouts extremely good, as they'll only have to make a 3" Charge. If I have a full squad of 10 - and I go first - I can put a unit of Scouts on almost any Objective on the board. That's really helpful. Lysander sucks. Assault Terminators are not as good as normal Terminators with a Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon. Stormravens and Stormtalons are great. Death Company kick arse.
...Unfortunately, Soulbursting Wraithguard will wreck your face. The Ynarne giving itself a second Fight phase will wreck your face.

So...Yeah. Ynnari are real good. I can say firsthand that that is the case, instead of just being a nerd reading a book and recognising what's good. All for the low, low price of 'No Coven Units'.

At this point, I just flat out refuse to play against them until some sort of fix is made. Maybe Necrons will have an answer.

[LeSwordfish]

I assume at least part of it is the other way around - it's a nerf to assault armies if charging makes the unit invisible for the purposes of protecting characters.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, thanks. In the real world my opponent destroys one of my units, gets another attack, then kills another unit, then the next unit gets to Soulburst, etc. and I have nothing to do with it. There's nothing you can do in your opponent's turn to prevent Soulburst, and your opponent is going to make sure that his best units - yes, plural (e.g; Wraithguard and Scourges) are going to get two Shooting phases to your one.

When The Ynarne focuses down one Character, murders it, Soulbursts immediately, and then attacks the unit next to it, kills that unit, too. What's your suggestion, there, then? So...Don't Charge? Let him Charge me? ...Just kidding. A Ynnari player will always spend CPs to interrupt with his Yncarne.

It's not possible to minimise the opponent's turn. Well, aside from how you normally do it. Except you're not supposed to destroy units in your turn, either.

ION;
I think I found the first 8th Ed. Core Rule that I actually don't like; You can't shoot a Character if you can see an enemy unit that's currently locked in combat and it's closer. Even though the unit is locked in combat and not a viable target anyway, you still can't shoot the Character. Apparently it's already been FAQ'd, and yes, this is the correct interpretation of the rule.

Wait, Soulburst triggers when they kill a unit? I thought it was when one of their died?

Also: Seriously? That is freaking stupid.

I assume at least part of it is the other way around - it's a nerf to assault armies if charging makes the unit invisible for the purposes of protecting characters.

Except Assault Army Heroes will want to be in combat too. Ork Warbosses, Chaos Lords, Space Marine Captains etc. I mean the only one i can think of off hand would be the Banner Nob and the Weridboy not wanting to be in combat, and if you cant shoot them if any Ork unit is closer.... well you just arent gonna get to shoot them will you?

Plus there are armies that don't have Sniper (CSM, Orks, and SoB come to mind), so how do they deal with your Force Multipliers?