Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Theodoric]

But, here's how the rule goes...
You can't shoot an enemy unit locked in combat. Cool.
Can I shoot the Character that's standing over there, then? What do you mean, 'No'?
Because the enemy unit you're not allowed to shoot at, is closer.
So, you're not allowed to shoot the unit, and you're not allowed to shoot the Character, even if said Character isn't even in combat and actually should be a viable target, because the closest unit isn't.

See, I look at it like this:

1. Can I shoot at the Character? No, it's not the closest unit.
2. Can I shoot at this closer unit instead? No, since it's current locked in close combat.
3. Can I shoot at literally any other unit on the table, within range? Sure, why not.

Why #2 should somehow override #1, except maybe as a sort of consolation prize for getting out-maneuvered, is beyond me.
But then maybe I'm the one being legalistic, for once.

[lord_khaine]

I assume at least part of it is the other way around - it's a nerf to assault armies if charging makes the unit invisible for the purposes of protecting characters.

Thats an extremely good point. Would make it more or less suicide to try and provide support for an assult unit, when a lot of heroes are suposed to be right there in the middle of things.

[boomwolf]

The idea behind "can't shoot characters" is not that the unit magically protects them, its that you can't single them out in the mess.

A melee going on isn't any less of a mess.


Is it perfect? no. but it beats lascannon-sniping any character that steps out of LoS blockers being a thing.



As for cheese's yannari problem.
First, I have no idea what list he ran, and what the yannari did-the yannari might have been far more optimized.
Second, bad matchups also exist, it might have been one.
Third, being tabled at 5th turn, is not so freakishly outlandish that something must be broken, you may have simply been outplayed.


Now, given your reaction "Well, aside from how you normally do it. Except you're not supposed to destroy units in your turn, either." completely neglects what I said about minimizing the enemy rather than annihilating it, as in, if he has two squads of ten, its better to take five out of each then to take one out.

Also, he somehow kills a unit, soulbursts and kills another unit?
What kind of units he has, and what kind you have, that a single one of his can take one of yours twice a row!? that's insanity! statistically, even a wraithguard unit (assuming its fully in range of two units) shouldn't be able to do it if your units are not roughly the same size. and they really shouldn't be unless your dudes are badass, because these guys are expensive.

Yannari counters-play less and bigger units, be tanky (avoid glasscannons and/or sacrificial lambs, invest in invuls given the option), shrink multiple units rather than annihilate a few, and try to separate units from each other by cutting the middleman.
There is a limit to how much he can pull off in a turn, and if a unit got soulbursted once, it can't be again-so take out his options, force his hand by taking out the units in the edges, the ones that have limited soulburst options to grant. remember its only infantry that can soulburst, no vehicles, bikes etc.

Yannari are strong, probably the strongest of the elves, but I highly doubt they are broken. they seem to have a rather poor match against daemons, TS, DG and anyone else that packs tanky invul-based/FnP units. Ironically, quinns are a bit of an issue for your standard yannari scourge/wraith build due to invuls everywhere.

[Requizen]

Cheese, I haven't played the list so I can't comment specifically on it, but would you have better served ignoring the Yncarne and tabling everything else? Yes, the monster gets to run free, but it's one model while you're cutting down everything else.

[hamishspence]

In one sense, "cannot join units" doesn't mean much - because the rules don't prevent units from being adjacent to each other. So, a character can stand in the back rank of a unit (or even be surrounded by a unit) - be a "one man unit" - and still grant their buff to all nearby models - and not be shot at since they're never the closest model.

There's a few weapons that, on destroying a unit, also inflict wounds on nearby units - these weapons are the best way to kill characters placed this way.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, thanks. In the real world my opponent destroys one of my units, gets another attack, then kills another unit, then the next unit gets to Soulburst, etc. and I have nothing to do with it. There's nothing you can do in your opponent's turn to prevent Soulburst, and your opponent is going to make sure that his best units - yes, plural (e.g; Wraithguard and Scourges) are going to get two Shooting phases to your one.

When The Ynarne focuses down one Character, murders it, Soulbursts immediately, and then attacks the unit next to it, kills that unit, too. What's your suggestion, there, then? So...Don't Charge? Let him Charge me? ...Just kidding. A Ynnari player will always spend CPs to interrupt with his Yncarne.

It's not possible to minimise the opponent's turn. Well, aside from how you normally do it. Except you're not supposed to destroy units in your turn, either.

ION;
I think I found the first 8th Ed. Core Rule that I actually don't like; You can't shoot a Character if you can see an enemy unit that's currently locked in combat and it's closer. Even though the unit is locked in combat and not a viable target anyway, you still can't shoot the Character. Apparently it's already been FAQ'd, and yes, this is the correct interpretation of the rule.

Ynnari are tough to deal with. I mean you lose so little to take them and get a massive buff. Which makes it tough because I want to make a Ynarri army, because I like their fluff and their special characters. Maybe I can do a Ynnari army of the dead with them and not be overpowered.


It makes logical sense. Why would they suddenly be easier to shoot after all? It'd be better if the character had to intervene if that was an option though. That would also make sense, and solve that rule oddity.

As for cheese's yannari problem.
First, I have no idea what list he ran, and what the yannari did-the yannari might have been far more optimized.
Second, bad matchups also exist, it might have been one.
Third, being tabled at 5th turn, is not so freakishly outlandish that something must be broken, you may have simply been outplayed.


Now, given your reaction "Well, aside from how you normally do it. Except you're not supposed to destroy units in your turn, either." completely neglects what I said about minimizing the enemy rather than annihilating it, as in, if he has two squads of ten, its better to take five out of each then to take one out.

Also, he somehow kills a unit, soulbursts and kills another unit?
What kind of units he has, and what kind you have, that a single one of his can take one of yours twice a row!? that's insanity! statistically, even a wraithguard unit (assuming its fully in range of two units) shouldn't be able to do it if your units are not roughly the same size. and they really shouldn't be unless your dudes are badass, because these guys are expensive.

Yannari counters-play less and bigger units, be tanky (avoid glasscannons and/or sacrificial lambs, invest in invuls given the option), shrink multiple units rather than annihilate a few, and try to separate units from each other by cutting the middleman.
There is a limit to how much he can pull off in a turn, and if a unit got soulbursted once, it can't be again-so take out his options, force his hand by taking out the units in the edges, the ones that have limited soulburst options to grant. remember its only infantry that can soulburst, no vehicles, bikes etc.

Yannari are strong, probably the strongest of the elves, but I highly doubt they are broken. they seem to have a rather poor match against daemons, TS, DG and anyone else that packs tanky invul-based/FnP units. Ironically, quinns are a bit of an issue for your standard yannari scourge/wraith build due to invuls everywhere.

The problem with Yannari is that you don't lose much of anything by taking them. Homunculus Covens, Drazhar, and the Avatar of Khaine. And in return you can chain actions in your already pretty darn strong army.

[Hicks]

You also lose Crescendo, Battle Focus, and Power from Pain respectively. These are of variable utility, but they aren't nothing.

[Gauntlet]

Ynnari don't get soulburst if the unit is wiped out in the morale phase, or from more than 7" away, which seems like the best ways of counterplaying them. Not saying it's good, but that's what I would aim for against them. Obviously Yncarne makes Morale harder to use against them, though.

[Cheesegear]

Well.. i on the other hand can tell you the actual relevance of the link you provided to the post you quoted.

It says that Characters with 9 or less Wounds can't be picked out. At which point Characters not being able to join units ceased to be a relevant concern ~two months ago.

Cheese, I haven't played the list so I can't comment specifically on it, but would you have better served ignoring the Yncarne and tabling everything else?

That's what I did for the first three turns, at which point I was 4 VPs up. By letting The Yncarne run around untouched, I was getting mauled, twice per turn. Kill a Character. Soulburst. Attack/Charge again. A unit of his dies, The Yncarne teleports, etc. Ynnari were absurdly strong in 7th, they're absurdly strong now. On Turn 4, I had a few units left, all within Charge range of The Yncarne. As I said at the start of Turn 4; "Kill the Ynarne or I lose." ...I didn't, so I was tabled at the end of Turn 5, because the Yncarne always has two Fight phases, and will always go first because every other turn the opponent will interrupt with his strongest model.

As the Yncarne only has 9 Wounds, it also can't be targeted anyway.

From what I took away from that game, it was 'Guilliman or lose', except just off the top of my head, Gulliman vs. Yncarne is about even.

Ynnari don't get soulburst if the unit is wiped out in the morale phase, or from more than 7" away

As I said previously, Drukhari-heavy Ynnari are super strong. One of the reasons is that everything they own moves 12" a turn. If they want to be 7" away, they will be.

[Forum Explorer]

It says that Characters with 9 or less Wounds can't be picked out. At which point Characters not being able to join units ceased to be a relevant concern ~two months ago.



That's what I did for the first three turns, at which point I was 4 VPs up. By letting The Yncarne run around untouched, I was getting mauled, twice per turn. Kill a Character. Soulburst. Attack/Charge again. A unit of his dies, The Yncarne teleports, etc. Ynnari were absurdly strong in 7th, they're absurdly strong now. On Turn 4, I had a few units left, all within Charge range of The Yncarne. As I said at the start of Turn 4; "Kill the Ynarne or I lose." ...I didn't, so I was tabled at the end of Turn 5, because the Yncarne always has two Fight phases, and will always go first because every other turn the opponent will interrupt with his strongest model.

As the Yncarne only has 9 Wounds, it also can't be targeted anyway.

From what I took away from that game, it was 'Guilliman or lose', except just off the top of my head, Gulliman vs. Yncarne is about even.

What were you running? The Yncarne doesn't look too durable. Maybe killing it first would've been a better option.

[Blackhawk748]

What were you running? The Yncarne doesn't look too durable. Maybe killing it first would've been a better option.

He can't. Thats the problem. As long as some other unit is closer (and it will be) he can't target the Yncarne, thus the problem.

Probably gonna need a unit of Sniper Scouts to target it. If you don't have Sniper units....well your kinda screwed then.

[lord_khaine]

It says that Characters with 9 or less Wounds can't be picked out. At which point Characters not being able to join units ceased to be a relevant concern ~two months ago.

I have already said it has zero relevance to the post you quoted once. But i guess its easier to assume i did not read the link, than to look though the quoted post and see if you had failed to read it in the relevant contex

You complained about how a unit locked in combat would still block someone from shooting at the character behind.

I commented on the ongoing conversation about that rule.
And i defended it, arguing how it would make it to hard for characters to stay in range and hand out their buffs. If the front unit getting into combat with something fast, meant that the character hiding behind would suddenly risk eating a lascannon shot.

Probably gonna need a unit of Sniper Scouts to target it. If you don't have Sniper units....well your kinda screwed then.

Likely kinda screwed anyway?
I dont know how tough sniper scouts are. But i kinda suspect their death is going to summon the Yncarne down in the first place..
Also i suspect its going to take them a long while to grind down a former monstrous creature like the Yncarne.

[Cheesegear]

Ynnari are tough to deal with. I mean you lose so little to take them and get a massive buff. Which makes it tough because I want to make a Ynarri army, because I like their fluff and their special characters. Maybe I can do a Ynnari army of the dead with them and not be overpowered.

As with almost everything in 8th, the key is handing out buffs.
Drukhari are not very good. If they need a second shooting phase everytime one of their units dies, or they kill another unit, fine. Double the effective killing power, as long as certain conditions are met. If you engineer your army right, it'll happen. I dealt with that. I was winning before I lost. Handing out a buff to a bad unit simply makes it playable, and almost good. The problem is when you hand out a buff to a unit that's already good, like Wraithguard, that it becomes a problem.

If I have a Chaplain standing next to Tactical Marines, no-one's going to care that my Tactical Marines re-roll To Hit in the Fight Phase. Put the same Chaplain next to Assault Terminators, and suddenly it's a huge deal.

Maybe killing it first would've been a better option.

Yeah. I tried that. Yncarne interrupted and killed Lysander in one phase, Soulbursted, and Charged the Terminators next to Lysander. Plan failed. Do other things.
Interrupts matter, especially combined with Soulburst.

There were two moments where I lost the game; First, when I forgot about interrupts. I recovered. Second, when I failed to The Yncarne in one turn after I had finally killed all the models around him and only got him down to 1 Wound. I did not recover, and I lost.

Probably gonna need a unit of Sniper Scouts to target it. If you don't have Sniper units....well your kinda screwed then.

...And then I did that, and The Yncarne gains Wounds back because models around him die.

[Blackhawk748]

...And then I did that, and The Yncarne gains Wounds back because models around him die.

So 2 units of Sniper Scouts? Basically hes gotta die in one round, otherwise he'll pull a Celestine.

[Cheesegear]

Basically hes gotta die in one round, otherwise he'll pull a Celestine.

That is correct.
Snipers can target him, that's fine. But nothing else can. Since every other unit you own has to focus on units that aren't Yncarne, the Yncarne gains Wounds back. Unless you kill the models around the Yncarne first and attack him last. Or use models that <Fly> and Melee him directly.

I beat Ynnari (same guy) in 7th by running a Gladius, and having more units on the board than he had Soulbursts and everything I owned having ObSec (and even then they were still close games and I lose a few times). That doesn't exist anymore. The people I've spoken to said that nearly every army in 8th was buffed, except for Marines and Necrons, who stayed relatively the same, and, surprise now Marines (although apparently not Blood Angels or any Ultramarine army running Guilliman and/or Sicarius?) and Necrons are in trouble. And the possible reason for Marines being unchanged, is so that the Primaris Marines can come out later and make Space Marines great again. Though unless Objective Secured comes back, I don't really think that that's a possibility.

Alternatively, I have to eat my own words, and start using Allies. By which I mean 'I knew it'.

[Forum Explorer]

He can't. Thats the problem. As long as some other unit is closer (and it will be) he can't target the Yncarne, thus the problem.

Probably gonna need a unit of Sniper Scouts to target it. If you don't have Sniper units....well your kinda screwed then.

You can't deploy the Ynncarne though. It must start in reserve, and only shows up when something dies. So I'm wondering how it's managing to be protected by other units.

Yeah. I tried that. Yncarne interrupted and killed Lysander in one phase, Soulbursted, and Charged the Terminators next to Lysander. Plan failed. Do other things.
Interrupts matter, especially combined with Soulburst.

There were two moments where I lost the game; First, when I forgot about interrupts. I recovered. Second, when I failed to The Yncarne in one turn after I had finally killed all the models around him and only got him down to 1 Wound. I did not recover, and I lost.



...And then I did that, and The Yncarne gains Wounds back because models around him die.

If you got the charge, you should've resolved that combat first. He can't interrupt you until after you've had at least one unit go. Though you said you forgot about interrupts, so I guess you know that now.

[Cheesegear]

It must start in reserve, and only shows up when something dies. So I'm wondering how it's managing to be protected by other units.

A Transport dies, the models get out. Yncarne comes out behind the unit, where the Transport was.
Yes, Transports count for Soulbursts, too.

I blow up a Transport. Yncarne comes down. The models inside the Transport gain a Soulburst action to shoot me in return.

He can't interrupt you until after you've had at least one unit go. Though you said you forgot about interrupts, so I guess you know that now.

As far as I can tell, what happened, would have happened anyway. Lysander still would've been killed in a single phase, because Lysander sucks because S10 doesn't really mean what it used to, especially against models in the T6-8 area (e.g; The Yncarne), and he doesn't have FNP anymore, either. The only thing that happened, is that Lysander didn't put five Wounds on the Daemon before he died. If Yncarne was on 4 Wounds at the end of Turn 2, things may have gone differently... But, mistakes were made and I came back from that. Lysander and the Terminators were going to die anyway, because that's simply how strong a Soulbursting Yncarne, is - not to mention that it makes all the units around it Fearless. I don't even think 'Guilliman or lose' is hyperbole.

I'm not saying his list is unbeatable - it was very close, had Yncarne died in my Turn 4, I would've won. I am saying that Ynnari are ridiculous, though, and due to certain mechanics of the game (Yncarne only having 9 Wounds, for example), makes it...Difficult...To win, because Strength from Death is such an absurdly strong rule. But here's what I don't think some of the Forumites are getting, the list I played against was a tame Ynnari list, because in our meta, if you bring a list that's too strong, you just wont get games.

The list I played against was tame, and I still thought it was pretty brutal.

Did anyone here even play against competitive Ynnari in 7th? It came out very close to the end, so I'm not sure how many people in the casual crowd have even experienced the pain. But, it's still very much alive and well in 8th.

[boomwolf]

A Transport dies, the models get out. Yncarne comes out behind the unit, where the Transport was.
Yes, Transports count for Soulbursts, too.

I blow up a Transport. Yncarne comes down. The models inside the Transport gain a Soulburst action to shoot me in return.

Here's part of your problem, you are doing it wrong.

A unit CANT get a soulburst when it's own transport dies.

You get a soulburst when a unit within 7" is destroyed-NOT when it's removed, but the transport is destroyed the unit "inside" is not within 7", as its not even on the table, its being put on the table is response to the transport being destroyed.

[Cheesegear]

You get a soulburst when a unit within 7" is destroyed-NOT when it's removed, but the transport is destroyed the unit "inside" is not within 7", as its not even on the table, its being put on the table is response to the transport being destroyed.

Well, that happened. Maybe next game if I can remember I'll bring it up. Or, after the first few weeks of playing I know what's actually good, and next time we play will be me using completely different list with more Storms and Death Company. But a unit Soulbursting off its own destroyed Transport was the least of my problems. Even if my opponent was cheating, I was still winning, until I wasn't. Kabalites weren't the problem. It was the Wraithguard that was the problem.

A Ravager rolls up and destroys a Rhino, easy money. The Wraithguard get a free shot at the unit that comes out of my Rhino. The Wraithguard get another shot, and I lose two units.

Anyway. Ynnari are as strong as they ever were. Nothing's changed. Move along.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, that happened. Maybe next game if I can remember I'll bring it up. Or, after the first few weeks of playing I know what's actually good, and next time we play will be me using completely different list with more Storms and Death Company. But a unit Soulbursting off its own destroyed Transport was the least of my problems. Even if my opponent was cheating, I was still winning, until I wasn't. Kabalites weren't the problem. It was the Wraithguard that was the problem.

A Ravager rolls up and destroys a Rhino, easy money. The Wraithguard get a free shot at the unit that comes out of my Rhino. The Wraithguard get another shot, and I lose two units.

Anyway. Ynnari are as strong as they ever were. Nothing's changed. Move along.

Actually, I don't think Wraithguard can go in Raiders. The Raiders can transport 'Incubi' or 'Drukhai Infantry'. (Why Incubi aren't Drukhai Infantry is a different question). Being in a Ynnari army gives you the 'Ynnari' keyword. It doesn't replace the Drukhai or Asuyrai keyword. So you can't mix Eldar infantry with Dark Eldar transports.

[Cheesegear]

Actually, I don't think Wraithguard can go in Raiders.

The Wraithguard were in a Wave Serpent. Next.

[Forum Explorer]

The Wraithguard were in a Wave Serpent. Next.

I'm finding it really difficult to know if there is any actual advice or help I can give with how sparse you are being on the details. I mean, what were you even running?

[lord_khaine]

I'm finding it really difficult to know if there is any actual advice or help I can give with how sparse you are being on the details. I mean, what were you even running?

Think its kinda obvious he does as such not want help. Only a chance to complain about how brutal Ynnari is.

[LansXero]

Odd question: Does anyone from the US have one of these that they would be willing to part with?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-JP...m-Tape-Measure

Im not entirely sure this is the right place to ask, but Im running out of options (its for a dear friend of mine).

Thanks!

[Blackhawk748]

Odd question: Does anyone from the US have one of these that they would be willing to part with?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-JP...m-Tape-Measure

Im not entirely sure this is the right place to ask, but Im running out of options (its for a dear friend of mine).

Thanks!

Have you tried Ebay?

[LansXero]

Have you tried Ebay?

Yup, no luck. Also tried GW itself (since I own a LGS) without much success. If anyone could refer me to an online store, ebay listing, etc. for it though, that would be amazing.

[Theodoric]

New FAQ and Errate are up on the Warhammer Community site! Seems a lot of errors, oversights and loopholes have been fixed. Wolf Lords have their proper equipment, can't take more than 1 command squad per commander in matched play, Celestine is a special character again, etc.

Even a few minute balance changes, though I'm not sure how precisely the Ynnari are affected.

There's also an 'intro to 8th for veterans' article on the same page, though I haven't read it yet.

Only change so far I noticed that really, really sucks is that Drones get Mortal Wounds now, which majorly reduces the utility of shield drones.

[Gauntlet]

New FAQ and Errate are up on the Warhammer Community site! Seems a lot of errors, oversights and loopholes have been fixed. Wolf Lords have their proper equipment, can't take more than 1 command squad per commander in matched play, Celestine is a special character again, etc.

Even a few minute balance changes, though I'm not sure how precisely the Ynnari are affected.

There's also an 'intro to 8th for veterans' article on the same page, though I haven't read it yet.

Only change so far I noticed that really, really sucks is that Drones get Mortal Wounds now, which majorly reduces the utility of shield drones.

The only relevant Ynnari change is that you can't Word of the Phoenix on a non-infantry/bike/yncarne models (i.e. a Scorpion). They still haven't clarified what has to be within 7" for Soulburst to trigger (the last model to be removed from a unit, or the unit at the start of the phase).

[Tome]

Huh.

When paying points, you only pay points for the models that are actually in an understrength unit.

On the one hand, I can take Monats again, on the other this seems crazy abusable.

A tactical squad of one, containing only the guy with the shiny gun. Repeat for ludicrous command points.

Single model units of wyches, feeding soulbursts to a unit of wraithguard.

[lord_khaine]

Wraithguards got a mean gun but short range. I do wonder though, are they the Eldar infantery unit that packs the largest potion of boom? How close do they compare to Warp Spiders or Dark Reapers if its just normal infatery you want to remove? Because i could also see this getting really mean if its a full unit of Dark Reapers who get to shoot twice.

Single model units of wyches, feeding soulbursts to a unit of wraithguard.

Nobody want to fight them while there are Wraithguards in range though. We can see entire units fleeing from a single Wych screaming "come back here and kill me, you sissies!"