Is OOTS even trying anymore?

[hamishspence]

I'm saying that the moment Bandana said "We are not turning around" in strip 1055 - and focused away from Andi to give more orders (with Andi starting a conversation with the other crew "This is insane"),

was the moment when Andi should have returned to work. Instead, she went across the deck - again - to complain about what the Order were doing.

Every moment Andi has not gone back to repair, from strip 1055 to 1062, is proof of Andi's negligence.

[Emperor Demonking]

I'm saying that the moment Bandana said "We are not turning around" in strip 1055 - and focused away from Andi to give more orders (with Andi starting a conversation with the other crew "This is insane"),

Two posts ago you said "She should not have left off repair in the first place." would you acknowledge that what you saying now and what you are saying two posts ago are not the same thing?

Are you therefore not holding Andi to far higher standards of perfect actions than you hold yourself to, despite the fact that frost giants are not going to kill you (which makes anyone think imperfectly)?

was the moment when Andi should have returned to work. Instead, she went across the deck - again - to complain about what the Order were doing.

Does that justify Bandi's screaming?

Every moment Andi has not gone back to repair, from strip 1055 to 1062, is proof of Andi's negligence.

And that justifies Bandi's screaming? However, why is it Andi's job to realise when Bandfi wants to stop speaking and chosing to go below deck, rather than Bandi's job to recognise that she wants to stop speak to Andi and to tell her to go below deck?

[Priceguy]

Speaking personally, I found the starmetal quest to be entertaining by itself, there was much less in the way of update fatigue, OOTS was much closer to being a series of random hijinks with minimal plot structure, and while the usefulness of starmetal is clear enough I would suspect that any connection with the Elder Black Dragon was invented much later. (No way to prove it, of course.)

Times have changed, man.

They always do. But, say, the New Year's Eve mini-arc, then. Hell, the Roy-in-Celestia stuff had me climbing the walls at the time but it's awesome in retrospect. And right now I'm as anxious as anybody to see where all this is heading because I know the Giant has something fantastic planned for the climax, because he always does. I just also know that all the stuff in between is going to turn out to be worthwhile, because it always does.

[hamishspence]

She did several bad things - she left off repair to ask Andi to turn the ship around. Then she failed to return to repair, then she continued to bother Andi with complaints about things (like the Order's actions) that Bandana could not influence.

Does that justify Bandi's screaming?

I think, yes, Bandana shouting was justified. Sometimes you have to shout, to get through to people who won't pay attention otherwise.

I don't see Bandana's raised voice as a scream or a shriek - but as a "military style" bellow - the kind of voice that usually cuts through nonsense.

However, why is it Andi's job to realise when Bandfi wants to stop speaking and chosing to go below deck, rather than Bandi's job to recognise that she wants to stop speak to Andi and to tell her to go below deck?

Because she's the one neglecting her duty and distracting Bandana from her own duties.

[Emperor Demonking]

She did several bad things - she left off repair to ask Andi to turn the ship around.

So she should have made no effort to keep the captain abreast of the situation? She should hsve not given the captain the opportunity to give new priorities. Even though in her professional opinion they were taking more crucial damage as could reasonably be fixed.

Would you say that if the ship failed because something crucial Bandana needed had been ignored because "I don't need little miss captain to tell me what to fix on my ship" that Andi would have been entirely in the right? And that it would utterly terribler criticism to say that she ought to have gone on deck and made Bandi aware, being that it would be advocating for dereliction of duty, that you would condem that quite strongly?

Then she failed to return to repair, then she continued to bother Andi with complaints about things (like the Order's actions) that Bandana could not influence.

I think, yes, Bandana shouting was justified. Sometimes you have to shout, to get through to people who won't pay attention otherwise.

But - unless you want to coulnt not calming down in a deadly situation when told to calm down - when have we seen anything that would suggest that she would not have gone down if given orders to? ("I hadd to start a physical confrontation. She wouldn't list otherwise!" "Did you try doing anything else first" "No!"

Because she's the one neglecting her duty and distracting Bandana from her own duties.

Why is it Andi's job to realise when Bandi is being distracted rather than Bandi's job to tell any distraction to go away. Rather than engaging with it, as Bandi actually did.

Bandi actually had the last word between the two of them, before shouting and getting in Andi's face. Andi's telling the Helmsman the state of the ship - useful information for the helmsman to know, no? Particularly if the problems are too big to actually solve - that precedes the physical confrontation.

[hamishspence]

If I were DM-ing, and both were Paladins of Freedom, or characters with one Exalted feat each - I would have been doing the "Are you sure you want to do that?" "Yes", "You lose your relevant class features" conversation during strip 1062.

And not for Bandana's "decision to yell at Andi" - only for Andi's hitting of Bandana.

[Keltest]

So she should have made no effort to keep the captain abreast of the situation? She should hsve not given the captain the opportunity to give new priorities. Even though in her professional opinion they were taking more crucial damage as could reasonably be fixed.

Andi is not a lookout. Andi is an engineer. If she had some vital piece of information to convey, she should have sent a subordinate. Furthermore, the fact that she knew that information in the first place (before Bandana did even) meant that she was watching the order instead of working on fixing something, so she wasn't doing her job twice over by going up there.

Would you say that if the ship failed because something crucial Bandana needed had been ignored because "I don't need little miss captain to tell me what to fix on my ship" that Andi would have been entirely in the right? And that it would utterly terribler criticism to say that she ought to have gone on deck and made Bandi aware, being that it would be advocating for dereliction of duty, that you would condem that quite strongly?

Again, send a subordinate. Andi and Bandana are not the only two crew members on the ship, if what she had to say was that important, she should have sent a messenger.

But - unless you want to coulnt not calming down in a deadly situation when told to calm down - when have we seen anything that would suggest that she would not have gone down if given orders to? ("I hadd to start a physical confrontation. She wouldn't list otherwise!" "Did you try doing anything else first" "No!"

Well, there was the fact that when Bandana gave her orders, Andi responded by hitting Bandana with a wrench. That's pretty telling.

Why is it Andi's job to realise when Bandi is being distracted rather than Bandi's job to tell any distraction to go away. Rather than engaging with it, as Bandi actually did.

Because Andi is nominally intelligent and has been working on the ship for more than a decade. If she doesn't know how to act as part of a crew by now, she has no business being on the ship at all.

Bandi actually had the last word between the two of them, before shouting and getting in Andi's face. Andi's telling the Helmsman the state of the ship - useful information for the helmsman to know, no? Particularly if the problems are too big to actually solve - that precedes the physical confrontation.

No, actually, that's almost totally useless information for the helmsman to know, unless some part of it is outright nonfunctioning. The Helmsman cant do anything about it. But you know who could? The Chief Engineer! Gee, if only she were doing something useful instead of harassing the other crew.

[Emperor Demonking]

If I were DM-ing, and both were Paladins of Freedom, or characters with one Exalted feat each - I would have been doing the "Are you sure you want to do that?" "Yes", "You lose your relevant class features" conversation during strip 1062.

And not for Bandana's "decision to yell at Andi" - only for Andi's hitting of Bandana.

We are not dealing with a situation where a player chooses to hit someone with a wrench.

In addition we are not arguing whether Andi is close to the highest paragon of good - she's not - we are arguing about when the wrench swing is proof that Andi is evil, near-evil or whatever. Or if circumstances were such that she reacted as quite many people would and in reaction of a physical confrontation that she did not initiate or deserve.

[hamishspence]

Not "whether she was evil" - "whether she committed an evil act".

For me, she did.

For me, Bandana's acts leading up to being hit - while not great, never qualified as evil in the fashion that Andi's did.


If we hold PCs to the same standards as NPCs, why not vice versa?

[Emperor Demonking]

[QUOTE=Keltest;22107045]Andi is not a lookout. Andi is an engineer. If she had some vital piece of information to convey, she should have sent a subordinate. Furthermore, the fact that she knew that information in the first place (before Bandana did even) meant that she was watching the order instead of working on fixing something, so she wasn't doing her job twice over by going up there.[/wquote]

1) Subordinaste or simply a different member of the crew? Would not that other member of the crew have his own duties. Perhaps ones that could be more effective than Andi trying to fix the unfixable?

2) If she is meant to do her own prioritising shoukdn't she know the lay of the situation (e.g. how likely they are to be able to target the engines?)

Again, send a subordinate. Andi and Bandana are not the only two crew members on the ship, if what she had to say was that important, she should have sent a messenger.

If she's sending a messenger she's not fixing. She's taking up more of total crew time. And she's moving another crew member from his post. Can you honestly say that if Andi had followed your plan and for loss of a hanging-out-near-Roy-to-give-him-a-sword-man the ship came down, that you would be defending Andi's actions as the correct thing to do (although not in hindsight)?

Well, there was the fact that when Bandana gave her orders, Andi responded by hitting Bandana with a wrench. That's pretty telling.

"Gave her orders" is such a mkisleading way of describing it, that I highly doubt you even think its a fair description.

Because Andi is nominally intelligent and has been working on the ship for more than a decade. If she doesn't know how to act as part of a crew by now, she has no business being on the ship at all.

So Andi forced Bandi to keep her on the crew? Do you think Julio would have reacted like Bandi did?

No, actually, that's almost totally useless information for the helmsman to know, unless some part of it is outright nonfunctioning. The Helmsman cant do anything about it. But you know who could? The Chief Engineer! Gee, if only she were doing something useful instead of harassing the other crew.

No, the cheif engineer can't fix it all. There's too much to fix. We don't even know if she could keep any given thing fixed while its being attacked by giants. In comparsison, if the helmsman knows why it is sluggish then she can more accurately estimate how sluggish it will be in different situations.

[hamishspence]

The chief engineer is still the best at fixing. Other crew might be able to nail a plank in to fix a hole - but not much more than that. Even if it's coordinating a bunch of "able seamen" or "able crewers" - the Chief engineer should, generally speaking, never be on the quarterdeck in this kind of crisis - because their skillset is so valuable, and so needed at work.

Some crew are much less useful - and they can be spared to run errands, carry messages, etc. The Chief Engineer cannot.


Think of it as like Star Trek - except, there are no communicators - so the least necessary crewmembers, have to act as living communicators.


If Scotty or Geordi La Forge is out of Main Engineering and on the Bridge - during a space battle, something has gone very wrong with his priorities.

[Emperor Demonking]

Not "whether she was evil" - "whether she committed an evil act".

For me, she did.

For me, Bandana's acts leading up to being hit - while not great, never qualified as evil in the fashion that Andi's did.


If we hold PCs to the same standards as NPCs, why not vice versa?

Because Andi reacted in the actual second. (in one panel she is in a defenseless posture getting bellowed out in her face. In the next she is raising her hand. In the next the blow has been struck. Where is ither time for choice and not reflex?) I think the fact that lot of people when condeming Andi's actions have to pretend that Andi waited when the comic simply doesn't have any opportunity for waiting is telling.

Choice is on stronger ground, and I would expect a good character to be able to excercise the self-control perhaps. However, it is possible that we don't disagree that much (certainly although I claim it is a neutral act I would expect it more from an evil person than a good or neutral person, most evil, some neutral few good).

Imagine - ridiculous situation that I am not claiming it taking place in the comic - that an alien forces Andi to live a fasmilie of the last dozen comics over and over again. How many loops - aproximately - before you are willing to say 'Andi, you're evil now.'

The chief engineer is still the best at fixing. Other crew might be able to nail a plank in to fix a hole - but not much more than that. Even if it's coordinating a bunch of "able seamen" or "able crewer's" - the Chief engineer should, generally speaking, never be on the quarterdeck in this kind of crisis - because their skillset is so valuable, and so needed at work.

Some crew are much less useful - and they can be spared to run errands, carry messages, etc. The Chief Engineer cannot.


Think of it as like Star Trek - except, there are no communicators - so the least necessary crewmembers, have to act as living communicators.


If Scotty or Geordi La Forge is out of Main Engineering and on the Bridge - during a space battle, something has gone very wrong with his priorities.

There are far more people in Star Trek. Have we seen anything to suggest that there are lots of superflous crew members below deck that can be given orders by Andi to send a message? If there are why was hanging-out-near-Roy-to-give-him-a-sword-man hiding where he was rather than assisting the below deck crew?

[Keltest]

There are far more people in Star Trek. Have we seen anything to suggest that there are lots of superflous crew members below deck that can be given orders by Andi to send a message? If there are why was hanging-out-near-Roy-to-give-him-a-sword-man hiding where he was rather than assisting the below deck crew?

You mean besides all the superfluous crew members hanging around in the background all over the place? Or the one who came up from belowdecks to hand Roy a sword? Or the ones Carol was able to round up just now to pull the release levers?

[SaintRidley]

To be fair, Miko had a much longer pre-established history at the time, some of which featured restraint, generosity and heroism. I don't know what's going on here that people are so attached to Andi.

I refer back to my surmise from the last time Andi defense got ridiculous: that she's standing up to the gay, mixed-race (more the gay part than the mixed-race part) interloper seems to be the underlying cause of a lot of Andi defense. How dare a character have the temerity to be gay and it not be central to all plot developments about her! Serves her right getting hit on the head with a wrench.

[hamishspence]

Because Andi reacted in the actual second. (in one panel she is in a defenseless posture getting bellowed out in her face. In the next she is raising her hand. In the next the blow has been struck.

I see it as

"Bandana finishes her yell and looks away, and extends a hand to point out the fins while continuing talking. Then Andi's expression changes from shock to fury "how dare she treat me as an erring subordinate and then stop paying attention to me" - then her arm begins to come up, as Bandana's words continue - then half-way through Bandana's speech about what to repair next, because Bandana isn't looking, Andi sees an opportunity to knock Bandana out, and takes it".


Reflex only applies in an actual combat situation - a drilled response - something physically lashing out at you and your combat-drilled responses kicking in.

[Emperor Demonking]

You mean besides all the superfluous crew members hanging around in the background all over the place? Or the one who came up from belowdecks to hand Roy a sword? Or the ones Carol was able to round up just now to pull the release levers?

Can you please give a comic reference to these background below-deck crew members. Since they are 'all over the place' this should not be hard. However, I do not think they exist.

The fact that the guy from below decks was there hiding behind the doors - presumably watching the fight - seems to suggest that there aren't numerous superflous below-deckers he can join. In additionn the people whose task it is to defend the deck with alchemist fire are also all ordered below deck to fetch it up. Suggesting that there aren't a bunch of below-dfeckers who can fetch it up with her.

Although we do know that there were at least five below-deckers to join Ozzie and Carol, is not the fact that Ozzie needed to come down too suggest that there aren't that many. Who may perhaps be doing more urgent work to help against the giant problem than Andi trying to fix the impossible.

"Bandana finishes her yell and looks away, and extends a hand to point out the fins while continuing talking. Then Andi's expression changes from shock to fury "how dare she treat me as an erring subordinate and then stop paying attention to me" - then her arm begins to come up, as Bandana's words continue - then half-way through Bandana's speech about what to repair next, because Bandana isn't looking, Andi sees an opportunity to knock Bandana out, and takes it".

That's a lot of 'then' for one panel.

Reflex only applies in an actual combat situation - a drilled response - something physically lashing out at you and your combat-drilled responses kicking in.

I think you are taking your soldier fantasies too far if you think reflexes only apply in combat situations. Even thinking that people need a 'drilled response' to - to chose the classic example - move their hand away when it touches the stove is comical.

[hamishspence]

Not the same thing - untrained pain reflex, danger reflex.

Just being "leaned into" is not the sort of thing that "provokes a combat reflexive response" - especially since the leaning had stopped. Bandana talking, while looking away, is no longer in any way "physically threatening".



Much more realistic, IMO, for Andi's action to be opportunism - she saw a chance to get through Bandana's own defences, and she took it. And broke a major rule of engagement. Then she broke another one with that mountain-top flyby.

As Viper would say in Top Gun - either obey the rules, or you're history.


I would accept the reflex argument if Andi's expression when delivering the blow was exactly the same as while she was being leaned into. But it wasn't.

[ZMiles]

So, another perspective on why this arc may be starting to drag for some (like myself, even though I enjoyed it at first):

1. The Mechane crew have become really flat characters. Most of them (Kwesi, Mateo, Carol) are interchangeable except for their outfits and have no distinct personalities. Andi and Bandana seemed interesting back when it seemed like they would both have virtues as well as flaws and could compliment each other, but both were flanderized. Andi's gone from someone reasonably worried about the situation to a shrieking incompetent lunatic whining that the world isn't fair, and Bandana's basically a Mary Sue at this point as far as the narrative is concerned. She has no flaws that the narrative will admit to, she's always proven right, etc. She's gotten worse in this regard; at the beginning of the arc when the ship flew into a storm, she took responsibility even though the storm was genuinely unexpected; now when she loses the confidence of her crew her response is to blame her crew for 'losing their way'.

Yes, these plot elements may become relevant later, but in the meantime there's page after page about a bunch of people who just are not interesting to read about.

2. The threat is also a lot less interesting. When Xykon was the main villain, we had a villain whom we'd seen do absolutely awful things. We knew he was a sadistic murdering monster, and that if he got more power he would just use it to hurt more and more people, likely including specific people we care about (e.g., the remaining paladins) as well as the world in general. So there's tension because we desperately want the Order to stop this psychopath and protect the characters and world that we care about.

'But what's the threat now? The gods destroy the world... and the vast majority of its creatures go on to the afterlives they earned. They get a well-deserved fate that they can't possibly claim is unjust or immoral to apply to them; the cosmos themselves guarantee they get exactly what they have coming. The exception is the dwarves, who go to Hel--but we don't actually know what that entails or how bad that is. We've seen Xykon torture people, seal souls in prisons, and turn folks into brutal mockeries of life. We've never seen Hel torture anyone; the only glimpses of her realm showed a couple dwarves carrying a big flagon around but that's not viscerally awful in the way that Xykon's stuff is. So we've moved from a threat which is concrete and visceral to a threat which is vague and abstract; it feels like a letdown. Plus, Xykon would hurt characters we know and love; we want him stopped in order to protect O-Chul and Julia and the others. Who would Hel capture that we specifically know? It feels unlikely that Durkon would go to Hel when his body is staked or whatnot (since he did die fighting Malack), and there aren't any other long-term dwarfish characters we've come to like. So we've moved from a concrete threat which affects characters we've learned to care about over the years, to a nominal threat which mostly affects nobody that's ever appeared on screen. Again, it's a letdown.

(The same applies to the second part of Hel's threat, her building a new world with herself as Queen of the pantheon. We have no way of knowing what that looks like or of knowing whether it'd be worse than, for instance, Empire of Blood, or Gobbotopia, or Azure City back when they were raiding goblin camps. And besides, the new world would effect a whole batch of new souls we've never met and have no reason to be attached too.)

3. This threat kind of nerfs the previous one. Roy said he wouldn't try to kill the new HPoH because, even if he actually killed her and resolved the vote before going down in a hail of spells, the gods would just call another vote once Xykon and Redcloak got closer to the gate. (And nothing we've seen contradicts that, especially since we know the ritual takes weeks and the gods can call these conventions with just a couple days' notice). This would seem to mean that Xykon and Redcloak now cannot actually win no matter what; if they get close the gods blow up the world and we get the nebulously bad ending instead of the 'oh gods Xykon is going to do horrible things to everyone' ending. So I'm a little worried that this arc killed the tension for the Book 7 plot.

[Emperor Demonking]

Not the same thing - pain reflex, danger reflex.

Just being "leaned into" is not the sort of thing that "provokes a combat reflexive response" - especially since the leaning had stopped. Bandana talking, while looking away, is no longer in any way "physically threatening".

Don't put into quotes things nobody had said, its rude.

The danger hasn't stopped by Bandi turning round. She is still to die. The danger hasn't changed at all. It is still understandable to lash out at the person who chose to shape herself like a threat - by bellowing and leaning over at.

Much more realistic, IMO, for Andi's action to be opportunism - she saw a chance to get through Bandana's own defences, and she took it. And broke a major rule of engagement. Then she broke another one with that mountain-top flyby.

Bandi had not been looking at Andi for panels. The one where she's screaming is the exception. If she was on the look-out for 'a chance' then she had one long before Bandi chose to bellow at her. Instead she swings at Bandi in the panel immediately after the leaning and screaming.

Would you disagree that Bandi made herself deliberately fearsome?

Edit: " I would accept the reflex argument if Andi's expression when delivering the blow was exactly the same as while she was being leaned into. But it wasn't. "

Is your expression when you accidently place your hand on the stove the same as when you leap away. People's expressions change when they act on reflex.

[hamishspence]

Don't put into quotes things nobody had said, its rude.

I use quotes for any word or phrase that I'm not certain is the perfect word - if someone has said something, and I want to quote that word-for-word, I put it in the orange quote tag.

[Keltest]

Can you please give a comic reference to these background below-deck crew members. Since they are 'all over the place' this should not be hard. However, I do not think they exist.

The fact that the guy from below decks was there hiding behind the doors - presumably watching the fight - seems to suggest that there aren't numerous superflous below-deckers he can join. In additionn the people whose task it is to defend the deck with alchemist fire are also all ordered below deck to fetch it up. Suggesting that there aren't a bunch of below-dfeckers who can fetch it up with her.

Although we do know that there were at least five below-deckers to join Ozzie and Carol, is not the fact that Ozzie needed to come down too suggest that there aren't that many. Who may perhaps be doing more urgent work to help against the giant problem than Andi trying to fix the impossible.

That's a lot of 'then' for one panel.

Lets see. Theres Eyepatch Guy, the two people in cloaks, the priest (and eyepatch guy again), The pink haired woman (who admittedly is on deck at the moment, but was a background crew member), Another guy with an eyepatch, the disgruntled chef, the blonde elf, The blonde woman, and now a third guy with an eyepatch. They should invest in some scrolls of regeneration. Theres a guy with a beard and sword in the first panel here. Aaaaaand the woman who pulled the release lever.

And these are just from the current book. I'm sure I could find more if I looked in the earlier books.

[Lacuna Caster]

I refer back to my surmise from the last time Andi defense got ridiculous: that she's standing up to the gay, mixed-race (more the gay part than the mixed-race part) interloper seems to be the underlying cause of a lot of Andi defense. How dare a character have the temerity to be gay and it not be central to all plot developments about her! Serves her right getting hit on the head with a wrench.

Hmm. Can't really comment on that.

They always do. But, say, the New Year's Eve mini-arc, then. Hell, the Roy-in-Celestia stuff had me climbing the walls at the time but it's awesome in retrospect. And right now I'm as anxious as anybody to see where all this is heading because I know the Giant has something fantastic planned for the climax, because he always does. I just also know that all the stuff in between is going to turn out to be worthwhile, because it always does.

I touched on this before, but I still don't quite see the point to the Celestia arc, since it's supposed to be building up Roy's family relations as something of vital importance when we already knew that Roy had mixed feelings about his Dad for reasons that aren't hard to grasp and could have been handled in flashback at any time if more detail was warranted. Either way, the Blood Oath doesn't care.

I didn't mind the New Year's arc in itself... aside from a nagging sense that Miko fans were being deliberately pissed on. I could be biased, though.

[Vinyadan]

To be fair, Miko had a much longer pre-established history at the time, some of which featured restraint, generosity and heroism. I don't know what's going on here that people are so attached to Andi.

This was very heatedly discussed, too.

[Emperor Demonking]

Lets see. Theres Eyepatch Guy, the two people in cloaks, the priest (and eyepatch guy again), The pink haired woman (who admittedly is on deck at the moment, but was a background crew member), Another guy with an eyepatch, the disgruntled chef, the blonde elf, The blonde woman, and now a third guy with an eyepatch. They should invest in some scrolls of regeneration. Theres a guy with a beard and sword in the first panel here. Aaaaaand the woman who pulled the release lever.

And these are just from the current book. I'm sure I could find more if I looked in the earlier books.

I looked at the first link. Neither of those were below deck. If any of those were below deck please link only those.

Having said that in the second link, Bandi explicitly says "And clear the hold, I want everyone above decks" The idea that Andi could have been doing repairs below deck while yelling at her fellow superflous crewmates is utterly unjustifiable.

Edit: No you're right in a sense. However, we do not know if they are superflous. And, to give one example, Andi going to the kitchen to speak to the chef to give a message to Bandi is unjustifiable compared to simply going up herself.

[hamishspence]

Would you disagree that Bandi made herself deliberately fearsome?

So does Andi:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html

And Felix does not respond by reflexively lashing out.

[Emperor Demonking]

So does Andi:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html

And Felix does not respond by reflexively lashing out.

In what panel do you think she's being fearsome?

[hamishspence]

Panel two - exactly the same lean forward - exactly the same raised hand as Bandana's (only with a weapon in that hand) - exactly the same lean back from Felix and alarmed expression on Felix's face.

[Emperor Demonking]

Did you post the wrong comic?

[hamishspence]

Compare Felix's lean-back posture (panel 2, 1064) to Andi's (panel 6, 1062):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html

[Lacuna Caster]

This was very heatedly discussed, too.

I'm not familiar with this usage of the term 'bushwhacked'. What are you saying here?