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  1. - Top - End - #1171
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    You know, that is quite a different direction than where I was thinking of taking Gresil. I took one throwaway sentence I found, something along the lines of "even the most powerful demon lords respect Gresil, because he might know their secrets" and thought about making Gresil's realm a kind of neutral ground between demon lords, where they could send their ambassadors to do business, because insulting Gresil's hospitality would mean he'd spread their secrets to their enemies.

    However, Gresil's domain is a library and his servants are librarian demons with deer skulls for heads, who radiate an aura of silence. So all diplomatic business must be done in writing, because speech, even telepathy, is impossible. And Gresil then claims that writing for his library, ever-increasing his store of secrets.

    I do love your take on Eblis as a one-demon engine of impotent destruction, though.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2019-11-19 at 10:14 AM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Wait a minute there's no Good Ice Elementals Lord or Deity? What about the Light and Dark Elemental Lords or Deities?
    Presumably there are various elemental lords of good and evil for the various quasi and para elemental planes, but Cryonex is the only one who has a writeup afaik. I know Bwimb, prince of the plane of ooze, was mentioned a couple of times before being killed in Dead Gods.

    There are no light and dark elemental planes, but there are the positive and negative energy planes which fulfil a similar role in D&D cosmology. Afaik they do not have any lords or similar divinities.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Presumably there are various elemental lords of good and evil for the various quasi and para elemental planes, but Cryonex is the only one who has a writeup afaik. I know Bwimb, prince of the plane of ooze, was mentioned a couple of times before being killed in Dead Gods.

    There are no light and dark elemental planes, but there are the positive and negative energy planes which fulfil a similar role in D&D cosmology. Afaik they do not have any lords or similar divinities.
    I'm sorry, but I need to ask: Why did you choose to answer a question that already was answered four pages back?

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    What's the oldest pantheon/people who have a real world analogue? Esp one with a Golem or artificial person myth?
    I am not quite sure what you are asking here. Do you want to know which real-world culture that was adapted to D&D is the oldest? If yes, the answer is (depending on whom you ask) Egypt, Mesopotamia or China. Of those at least Mesopotamia has a legend about an artificial person: Enkidu was a beast-man made by the gods from clay to punish Gilgamesh for offending Ishtar. Didn't work, because Enkidu and Gilgamesh instead became friends shonen-style.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    I'm sorry, but I need to ask: Why did you choose to answer a question that already was answered four pages back?
    I just saw the post for the first time and I thiught the initial answers closed more doors than they oppened.
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  5. - Top - End - #1175
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    What's the oldest pantheon/people who have a real world analogue? Esp one with a Golem or artificial person myth?
    Leaning a bit more into real-world religion there than I'm comfortable with. If you're looking at those pantheons, though, you're looking at humans, a comparatively recent addition to the cosmos as a whole. You're evidently doing A Thing, why not just make something up for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    You know, that is quite a different direction than where I was thinking of taking Gresil. I took one throwaway sentence I found, something along the lines of "even the most powerful demon lords respect Gresil, because he might know their secrets" and thought about making Gresil's realm a kind of neutral ground between demon lords, where they could send their ambassadors to do business, because insulting Gresil's hospitality would mean he'd spread their secrets to their enemies.
    That's not at all incompatible with what I assembled:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    His vast swathes of information provide him a certain measure of protection from his peers and betters
    That's Gresil being insulated; the multiple doors to his realm are so that demon lords and their emissaries may conduct business in his realm. it was definitely my intention that it be usable in such a fashion.

    However, Gresil's domain is a library and his servants are librarian demons with deer skulls for heads, who radiate an aura of silence.
    As much as I like the idea of the stagrynax, they are not canon, and fan sources for them put them under copyright, so I'ma leave them alone. No sense weaving lore around something that could end up being pulled. I know that seems like a non-issue, but I've seen it happen before and it wasn't pretty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Presumably there are various elemental lords of good and evil for the various quasi and para elemental planes, but Cryonex is the only one who has a writeup afaik. I know Bwimb, prince of the plane of ooze, was mentioned a couple of times before being killed in Dead Gods.
    Bwimb II still rules in Ooze. Cryonax has always been the most prominent of the others, however. The Smoke Dukes don't rally around any one being, each ruling a minor fiefdoms, and the roaming communities of magma paraelementals often seem leaderless.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Oh, didn't notice they were fan sources. Shame, I like the idea of really silent library demons.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Presumably there are various elemental lords of good and evil for the various quasi and para elemental planes, but Cryonex is the only one who has a writeup afaik. I know Bwimb, prince of the plane of ooze, was mentioned a couple of times before being killed in Dead Gods.

    There are no light and dark elemental planes, but there are the positive and negative energy planes which fulfil a similar role in D&D cosmology. Afaik they do not have any lords or similar divinities.
    I didn't know that ooze is an elemental.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I didn't know that ooze is an elemental.
    D&D has para elemental planes between the standard elemental planes and quasi elemental planes between the elemental planes and the positive and negative energy planes.

    Iirc Ooze is between earth and water, just as cold is between air and water.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    D&D has para elemental planes between the standard elemental planes and quasi elemental planes between the elemental planes and the positive and negative energy planes.

    Iirc Ooze is between earth and water, just as cold is between air and water.
    Oh wow. Awesome sauce.

  10. - Top - End - #1180
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    The other paraelements are smoke (air and fire) and magma (fire and earth). The quasielements are radiance (fire and positive), lightning (air and positive), steam (water and positive), mineral (earth and positive), ashes (fire and negative), vacuum (air and negative), salt (water and negative) and dust (earth and negative).

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    The other paraelements are smoke (air and fire) and magma (fire and earth). The quasielements are radiance (fire and positive), lightning (air and positive), steam (water and positive), mineral (earth and positive), ashes (fire and negative), vacuum (air and negative), salt (water and negative) and dust (earth and negative).
    Cool!

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    ...

    I am not quite sure what you are asking here. Do you want to know which real-world culture that was addpated to D&D is the oldest? If yes, the answer is (depending on whom you ask) Egypt, Mesopotamia or China. Of those at least Mesopotamia has a legend about an artificial person: Enkidu was a beast-man made by the gods from clay to punish Gilgamesh for offending Ishtar. Didn't work, because Enkidu and Gilgamesh instead became friends shonen-style.
    Enkidu is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. The most perfect. THANK you.

    That episode of Extra Mythology was the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Leaning a bit more into real-world religion there than I'm comfortable with. If you're looking at those pantheons, though, you're looking at humans, a comparatively recent addition to the cosmos as a whole. You're evidently doing A Thing, why not just make something up for it?

    ...
    Equal parts fishing for inspiration and laziness. Y'know, writing.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Is there any lore on Athach you can throw my way or are they just basically bigger, tougher, and 3-armed ogres?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    What are rafada demons? I couldn't find them with google and the Wikipedia page on demons doesn't mention them.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Where did you find that name? I can't find anything either.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Afro mentioned them in his write-up on Eblis. First paragraph.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardot View Post
    Is there any lore on Athach you can throw my way or are they just basically bigger, tougher, and 3-armed ogres?
    Not a lot, sadly; consequence of a BECMI monster subsequently translated over into Mystara. You just don't get much material. They're not ogres; they're considerably larger, oddly more agile, and slightly more alert. They're also venomous and have a strong aversion to actual giants. They aren't biologically "giants," either; they're aberrations.

    Now, normally, a hideous misshapen giant-kin is tied in some way to Grolantor or Karontor, but athach have no documented religion to speak of and giant myths do not incorporate them. I still wouldn't put it past Grolantor to have sired them by bedding some awful monstrosity or other, as he is wont to do, but they could just as easily be the work of mortal mages trying to create the next owlbear, or some horrific mutation or teratomorphic emergence. They definitely weren't a deliberate creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    What are rafada demons? I couldn't find them with google and the Wikipedia page on demons doesn't mention them.
    That's because I made them up!

    Spoiler: Rafada
    Show
    Rafada
    Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Tanar'ri)
    HD 9d8+18 (58 hp)
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares); fly 40 ft. (good)
    Init: +6
    AC 19; touch 12; flat-footed 17 (+7 natural, +2 Dex)
    BAB +9; Grp +13
    Attack Claw +13 melee (1d6+4)
    Full-Attack 2 claws +13 melee (1d6+4) and bite +8 melee
    Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
    Special Attacks Provocation, rend 2d6+6, spell-like abilities, throat puppet
    Special Qualities Blindsight 120 ft., DR 10/cold iron or good, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, resistance to cold 10, resistance to fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.
    Saves Fort +8 Ref +8 Will +8
    Abilities Str 19, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 16
    Skills Bluff +17, Concentration +14, Diplomacy +15, Hide +15, Intimidate +17, Listen +14, Move Silently +15, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +13
    Feats Dodge, HoverB, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Persuasive
    Environment Infinite Layers of the Abyss
    Organization Solitary, pair, or flock (4-10)
    Challenge Rating 8
    Treasure Standard
    Alignment Always chaotic evil
    Advancement 10-18 HD (Large); 19-27 HD (Huge)

    A hideous thing hunches forward on avian talons like a fleshless ape, a foul gargoyle with a twitching and drooling lampreylike mouth where a head and neck should be. Wings like those of a beetle spread behind it, creating a soft drone as it raises up in midair.

    Rafada (ruh-FAH-duh) go wherever peace and understanding threaten to end strife and bloodshed, stoking lingering ill will and provoking those with lingering doubts to harden their hearts and refuse to concede an inch of ground. Speaking through the voices of others while they lurk invisibly above, they sow words of hatred and violence, that they may reap mayhem and screams. Rafada are drawn to conquerors and lost causes both, and may ally themselves with those fueled by contempt, fear, intolerance, or rage, providing their support in exchange for the spread of further chaos and misery in the world.

    Rafada like to perch atop spires and crags like gargoyles or hover silently in midair to watch their work take shape. In the Abyss, they swam to provoke more powerful demons into greater acts of carnage, whether using their powers or simply by providing an audience to egg on the demon. They are associated with numerous demon lords of unrest and strife, including Eblis, patron of those who refuse to make peace, and Barbu, Lady of Discord. Rafada are incapable of speech (see below), but understand Infernal, Abyssal, and two or three other languages.

    Provocation (Su) Rafada passively exude an aura that exacerbates violent feelings in those who are already angry. Any creature currently raging (as the barbarian's rage ability and similar abilities, the effect of the rage spell, and similar effects) that starts its turn within 60 ft. of a rafada must make a Will save (DC 17) or become frenzied, gaining a +2 profane bonus to Strength until their rage ends. A frenzied creature is not capable of calming down of their own volition; should they run out of enemies before their frenzy expires, they must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or their own). While frenzied in this way, a character reduced to negative hit points continues to act as though they had stabilized with the Diehard feat. A creature that successfully saves against a rafada's provocation is immune to the provocation of that particular rafada for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability that does not constitute an attack for the purposes of invisibility. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    Rend (Ex) A rafada that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 2d6+6 points of damage.

    Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) At will - comprehend languages, detect thoughts (DC 15), inciteSC (DC 14), invisibility (self only), magic mouth, rage (may be targeted against a single unwilling creature, Will DC 16 negates) 3/day - delusions of grandeurSC (DC 15), invisibility, poison (DC 17), suggestion (DC 16) 1/day - fear (DC 17), song of discord (DC 18). Caster level 10th, save DCs Charisma-based.

    Throat Puppet (Su) A rafada is incapable of speech, lacking vocal organs or any means of articulation. It can, however, briefly take over the speech of another creature within 60 ft. as a standard action if that creature fails a Will save (DC 19). A rafada can speak through its throat puppet for up to 1 minute, having full control of the target's physical speech apparatus (mouth, diaphragm, etc.) during this time. A target lacking a physical means to articulate speech is immune to this ability, and if the target possesses other means to communicate (including body language), they may do so, or even attempt to impede their body's speech. As such, rafada tend to be subtle with the use of this ability, taking over to insert a few choice harsh words or waiting until an impassioned speaker might not immediately notice very different dialogue coming out in their own voice.

    A rafada may not use this ability to cause the victim to cast a spell by reciting a verbal component (or activate any similar ability), even if this is the only component required; the process of casting a spell (or truenaming, or Dark Speech, or any other inherently supernatural vocalization) requires more than just moving one's lips and making sounds. Conversely, a magic item with a command or activation word can, in most cases, be triggered via this ability. This is due to the fact that such items are rarely crafted with a skilled linguist in mind - though if the command word is of some complexity and requires some skill to pronounce, the rafada may struggle to activate it in this manner. The rafada cannot meaningfully carry a tune using this ability, rendering Perform checks unlikely and bardic music impossible. The rafada speaks through the victim's mouth and throat alone, and cannot convey information known by the victim that the demon does not itself know. Any volume the victim is capable of producing is permissible, as is control of the mouth to bite; however, any damage inflicted on the victim through this ability immediately allows a new Will save to end the effect. This is a mind-affecting ability that does not count as an attack for the purposes of invisibility. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2019-11-21 at 12:04 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #1188
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Are there any deities that represent love, romance and marriage? If so what are their names?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Are there any deities that represent love, romance and marriage? If so what are their names?
    Of course there are. You should already know a few of them; Aphrodite and Hera of the Olympian pantheon; Freya and Frigga of the Asgardian pantheon; Isis of the Pharaonic pantheon. There are plenty more; it's a relatively big topic, after all. You have Iallanis of the Ordning; Hanali Celanil of the Seldarine; Sharindlar of the Morndinsamman, etc. etc.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    1) What effect will Spire have on magic that isn't cast, but "built-in"? Like the death gaze of basilisk, or ability of genies to fly without wings.

    2) How exactly are petitioners "allocated" to specific layers? You described it for Carceri, but what about other planes? For example, who will be sent to a fiery layer of Gehenna, and who to frozen one? Can petitioner move between layers if he wants (for good planes) or is ordered to (if evil)?

    3) Can petitioners go to Outlands or neighboring planes, again by own will or order? I was thinking - books say that Bytopia is famous for it's skillful craftsman and artisans. But whatever they craft, be it a weapon, or art piece, is useless unless it can be used\appreciated by someone from outside. Can a Bytopian petitioner sell ultimate sword or beautiful statue in Bytopian gate-town of Outlands, for example?

    4) What deities can actually do and what they can't, in default Planescape? I don't mean numbers and divine ranks. Yes, I know that this thread is for Great Wheel system, but still want to give example to explain what I am asking. In DnD 4 Asmodeus "diablerized" Azuth, that banished the whole race of tanar'ri. By standard laws of Great Wheel system, can a deity really do this? If Asmodeus got enough power to banish the infinite number of fiends, does it mean that Azuth was that powerful too? If so, how he could be defeated in the first place?

    5) Were there any fights between deities, ever? Not their cults\armies but their "characters", if this word applies here. Is it even possible?

    6) There are deities with different ranks and overdeities. But also, there are Old Ones, Elder Evils, Lady of Pain and Dark Powers of Ravernloft. Again, can their powers be compared somehow? And again, I don't mean stats.

    7) What will happen if a deity will attempt to enter Sigil? Will it be just impossible to go through portal, or it will be eradicated on entry?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    That's because I made them up!

    Spoiler: Rafada
    Show
    Rafada
    Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Tanar'ri)
    HD 9d8+18 (58 hp)
    Speed 20 ft. (4 squares); fly 40 ft. (good)
    Init: +6
    AC 19; touch 12; flat-footed 17 (+7 natural, +2 Dex)
    BAB +9; Grp +13
    Attack Claw +13 melee (1d6+4)
    Full-Attack 2 claws +13 melee (1d6+4) and bite +8 melee
    Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
    Special Attacks Provocation, rend 2d6+6, spell-like abilities, throat puppet
    Special Qualities Blindsight 120 ft., DR 10/cold iron or good, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, resistance to cold 10, resistance to fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.
    Saves Fort +8 Ref +8 Will +8
    Abilities Str 19, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 16
    Skills Bluff +17, Concentration +14, Diplomacy +15, Hide +15, Intimidate +17, Listen +14, Move Silently +15, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +13
    Feats Dodge, HoverB, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Persuasive
    Environment Infinite Layers of the Abyss
    Organization Solitary, pair, or flock (4-10)
    Challenge Rating 8
    Treasure Standard
    Alignment Always chaotic evil
    Advancement 10-18 HD (Large); 19-27 HD (Huge)

    A hideous thing hunches forward on avian talons like a fleshless ape, a foul gargoyle with a twitching and drooling lampreylike mouth where a head and neck should be. Wings like those of a beetle spread behind it, creating a soft drone as it raises up in midair.

    Rafada (ruh-FAH-duh) go wherever peace and understanding threaten to end strife and bloodshed, stoking lingering ill will and provoking those with lingering doubts to harden their hearts and refuse to concede an inch of ground. Speaking through the voices of others while they lurk invisibly above, they sow words of hatred and violence, that they may reap mayhem and screams. Rafada are drawn to conquerors and lost causes both, and may ally themselves with those fueled by contempt, fear, intolerance, or rage, providing their support in exchange for the spread of further chaos and misery in the world.

    Rafada like to perch atop spires and crags like gargoyles or hover silently in midair to watch their work take shape. In the Abyss, they swam to provoke more powerful demons into greater acts of carnage, whether using their powers or simply by providing an audience to egg on the demon. They are associated with numerous demon lords of unrest and strife, including Eblis, patron of those who refuse to make peace, and Barbu, Lady of Discord. Rafada are incapable of speech (see below), but understand Infernal, Abyssal, and two or three other languages.

    Provocation (Su) Rafada passively exude an aura that exacerbates violent feelings in those who are already angry. Any creature currently raging (as the barbarian's rage ability and similar abilities, the effect of the rage spell, and similar effects) that starts its turn within 60 ft. of a rafada must make a Will save (DC 17) or become frenzied, gaining a +2 profane bonus to Strength until their rage ends. A frenzied creature is not capable of calming down of their own volition; should they run out of enemies before their frenzy expires, they must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or their own). While frenzied in this way, a character reduced to negative hit points continues to act as though they had stabilized with the Diehard feat. A creature that successfully saves against a rafada's provocation is immune to the provocation of that particular rafada for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability that does not constitute an attack for the purposes of invisibility. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    Rend (Ex) A rafada that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 2d6+6 points of damage.

    Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) At will - comprehend languages, detect thoughts (DC 15), inciteSC (DC 14), invisibility (self only), magic mouth, rage (may be targeted against a single unwilling creature, Will DC 16 negates) 3/day - delusions of grandeurSC (DC 15), invisibility, poison (DC 17), suggestion (DC 16) 1/day - fear (DC 17), song of discord (DC 18). Caster level 10th, save DCs Charisma-based.

    Throat Puppet (Su) A rafada is incapable of speech, lacking vocal organs or any means of articulation. It can, however, briefly take over the speech of another creature within 60 ft. as a standard action if that creature fails a Will save (DC 19). A rafada can speak through its throat puppet for up to 1 minute, having full control of the target's physical speech apparatus (mouth, diaphragm, etc.) during this time. A target lacking a physical means to articulate speech is immune to this ability, and if the target possesses other means to communicate (including body language), they may do so, or even attempt to impede their body's speech. As such, rafada tend to be subtle with the use of this ability, taking over to insert a few choice harsh words or waiting until an impassioned speaker might not immediately notice very different dialogue coming out in their own voice.

    A rafada may not use this ability to cause the victim to cast a spell by reciting a verbal component (or activate any similar ability), even if this is the only component required; the process of casting a spell (or truenaming, or Dark Speech, or any other inherently supernatural vocalization) requires more than just moving one's lips and making sounds. Conversely, a magic item with a command or activation word can, in most cases, be triggered via this ability. This is due to the fact that such items are rarely crafted with a skilled linguist in mind - though if the command word is of some complexity and requires some skill to pronounce, the rafada may struggle to activate it in this manner. The rafada cannot meaningfully carry a tune using this ability, rendering Perform checks unlikely and bardic music impossible. The rafada speaks through the victim's mouth and throat alone, and cannot convey information known by the victim that the demon does not itself know. Any volume the victim is capable of producing is permissible, as is control of the mouth to bite; however, any damage inflicted on the victim through this ability immediately allows a new Will save to end the effect. This is a mind-affecting ability that does not count as an attack for the purposes of invisibility. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    1) What effect will Spire have on magic that isn't cast, but "built-in"? Like the death gaze of basilisk, or ability of genies to fly without wings.
    Abilities like those are classified as "supernatural". Supernatural abilities are suppressed within a distance of 500 miles around the spire.

    3) Can petitioners go to Outlands or neighboring planes, again by own will or order? I was thinking - books say that Bytopia is famous for it's skillful craftsman and artisans. But whatever they craft, be it a weapon, or art piece, is useless unless it can be used\appreciated by someone from outside. Can a Bytopian petitioner sell ultimate sword or beautiful statue in Bytopian gate-town of Outlands, for example?
    No, petitioners can't leave their plane (there are certain exceptions, like larvae, manes and lantern archons (if you count those)). But petitioners aren't the only people living on the Outer Planes (in fact, can one even say that petitioners are "living" or "people"?) Those living folks are able to travel and trade.
    4) What deities can actually do and what they can't, in default Planescape? I don't mean numbers and divine ranks. Yes, I know that this thread is for Great Wheel system, but still want to give example to explain what I am asking. In DnD 4 Asmodeus "diablerized" Azuth, that banished the whole race of tanar'ri. By standard laws of Great Wheel system, can a deity really do this? If Asmodeus got enough power to banish the infinite number of fiends, does it mean that Azuth was that powerful too? If so, how he could be defeated in the first place?
    4e is taboo in this thread and doesn't have any bearing on anything. Hey Afro, I think there's a serious lack of black lightning here! (Haven't see you do a good smiting in a looong time. )

    5) Were there any fights between deities, ever? Not their cults\armies but their "characters", if this word applies here. Is it even possible?
    Of course! Legends and myths are full of them: Gruumsh versus Corellon Larethian, Hextor vs Heironeous, Olympians versus Titans. In modern times this doesn't really happen anymore; proxy wars (pun intended) can get you the same thing without much of the risk.

    6) There are deities with different ranks and overdeities. But also, there are Old Ones, Elder Evils, Lady of Pain and Dark Powers of Ravenloft. Again, can their powers be compared somehow? And again, I don't mean stats.
    Overdeities are the mysterious beings that rule over crystal spheres and decide what goes there and what doesn't in terms of divinity and laws of nature. By definition we don't know much about them except from what Ao was doing (allowing gods to survive on lip service, forcing gods to manifest in killable bodies in the Time of Troubles...)
    Old Ones are entities from the old Mystara setting. Afro mentioned them as being involved in the creation of the multiverse and as, maybe, the creators and/or bosses of the overdeities.
    Elder Evil has two different meanings: Big case Elder Evils are a collection of things that are hidden from the gods' sight and whose activities may have apocalyptic consequences on a singular world. Theoretically, any Big Bad Evil Guy could be statted as an Elder Evil. Of the known ones, only Pandorym should play in a league where it could threaten deities.
    Small case elder evils are Far Realms entities revered by the Aboleths. One of them, Piscaethces, is roughly equivalent to an intermediate deity.
    The Lady of Pain is a mystery and is supposed to remain one. She can kill gods that annoy her, which is everything you need to know. (Seriously, you ever heard the saying "There's always a bigger fish"? The Lady is The Bigger Fish.)
    The Dark Powers are even more mysterious than the Lady. They can only be known by the results of their actions. Fact is: they never seek confrontation (and the Lady could propably keep them from reaching into Sigil, if she wanted), and nobody ever tries to confront them.

    7) What will happen if a deity will attempt to enter Sigil? Will it be just impossible to go through portal, or it will be eradicated on entry?
    Aoskar was able to enter Sigil. He even was able to stay there for a time without being killed. Let's just say that the Lady would send a message to the deity with the meaning of "GET OF MY LAWN." and kill them if they don't listen. Luckily for the deities, they all got the memo back when Aoskar got flayed, and won't go there.

  22. - Top - End - #1192
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    1) What effect will Spire have on magic that isn't cast, but "built-in"? Like the death gaze of basilisk, or ability of genies to fly without wings.
    As Tzardok pointed out, supernatural abilities get shut off, too.

    2) How exactly are petitioners "allocated" to specific layers? You described it for Carceri, but what about other planes? For example, who will be sent to a fiery layer of Gehenna, and who to frozen one? Can petitioner move between layers if he wants (for good planes) or is ordered to (if evil)?
    Obviously divine realms get whoever belongs to them; beyond that, it's not often spelled out by plane - Carceri is a specific example as it takes its inspiration from Dante's Inferno. On Mount Celestia, you start at the bottom and work your way up. I'll have to do a deep dive to see if any of the others explicitly allocate petitioners in such a fashion.

    3) Can petitioners go to Outlands or neighboring planes, again by own will or order?
    Barring those few types which have the ability No Planar Commitment, no, they cannot.

    4) What deities can actually do and what they can't, in default Planescape?
    That's pretty broad.

    Yes, I know that this thread is for Great Wheel system, but still want to give example to explain what I am asking. In DnD 4 Asmodeus "diablerized" Azuth, that banished the whole race of tanar'ri. By standard laws of Great Wheel system, can a deity really do this?
    See it's complete nonsense like that which is why 4E isn't done here. 4E's fluff wanted to cut, smash, simplify, and kludge - and that's exactly what it did. I don't care to start an edition war in this thread, but 4E's take on the cosmology is hot garbage served with a side of room-temperature shrimp marinated in whatever's found in the McDonalds grease trap at the end of the month. It was developed by donkeys who had been threatened with horrific punishments should anything remotely resembling competence sneak out into their work.

    No, a god could not do that. Even involving oneself in the Blood War is enough to weaken and imperil a deity. This is precisely why the Athar believe the powers are frauds, because they can't just up and collapse reality at an indefinite scale.

    Please don't bring more 4E into this. Nobody needs to be reminded of it in this thread, least of all me. I won't be quite so friendly about it next time.

    5) Were there any fights between deities, ever? Not their cults\armies but their "characters", if this word applies here. Is it even possible?
    Oh very yes. Deities have fought and killed one another. They rarely like to engage as it's quite dangerous, but Gruumsh and Corellon have dueled, and (in avatar form, mind you) Gruumsh actually slew the Pharaonic deity Ra, necessitating his rebirth as Re-Horakhty. On the world of Aebrynis, all of their then-gods manifested on the Prime to wage war, which had enormous and eternal consequences for the peoples of that world.

    6) There are deities with different ranks and overdeities. But also, there are Old Ones, Elder Evils, Lady of Pain and Dark Powers of Ravernloft. Again, can their powers be compared somehow? And again, I don't mean stats.
    If we're referring to the Elder Evils from the book Elder Evils, they'd be of different ranges of power, but largely on the bottom rung of those you've named. The aboleth elder evils include nondeific abominations as well as at least one deity. An overdeity's scope is limited to a particular crystal sphere and authority over those divine beings who invest themselves into it in some fashion. The specific nature of the Dark Powers is unknown, but they certainly screwed around with Vecna enough. The specific nature of the Lady of Pain is also unknown, but she governs the fulcrum of the multiverse and is apparently capable of putting it into order when it gets into serious trouble. The Old Ones are outside this cosmology, the previous cosmology, and any yet to come.

    7) What will happen if a deity will attempt to enter Sigil? Will it be just impossible to go through portal, or it will be eradicated on entry?
    Impossible to enter. At some point a long time in the past, the deity Aoskar was permitted within Sigil's bounds, but no deity has been able to waltz in since the Lady ended him. Vecna cheated his way in - it was the only way - and the Lady changed the rules of the multiverse to close that loophole after she threw him out. There was a case of a god becoming a deity within Sigil for the first time - that deity did not enjoy the experience and felt pressure to leave. Literal pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Did you simply snuck the name into the text in the hopes of someone asking, just so you could post them as a reaction?
    Did I, a famously evil individual, supernaturally manipulate someone else into speaking words of chaos for my own amusement? How very rafada-esque of me.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    To what extent are extraplanars shaped by the inertia of souls in the afterlife vs how present culture adapts in the material?

    In a hypothetical example, let's say that across the material plane, medieval stasis has been broken and modern technology, like guns and flak jackets, became common adventuring gear.

    1. I imagine that the demon race would change. Would a vast change in the perspective of mortals be more likely to cause the Tanar'ri to warp to using more chemical-based projectile weapons, or more likely for a new race to usurp them as they usurped the Obyriths? Or am I off base, and they'll always be rending claws and swords? Baator seems like it almost certainly just make new weapons with Asmodeus at the bottom of the pit.

    2. Would the forces of Good or of pure Law change to adopt a new form?

    3. Would the gods and their favored weapons feasibly change? If so, would it be more of a "St. Cuthbert has always favored the revolver" or a conscious choice?

    4. Would any of these answers change once the majority of mortal souls within a plane were composed of "modern-era" (for lack of a better term) or later souls?
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  24. - Top - End - #1194
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    To what extent are extraplanars shaped by the inertia of souls in the afterlife vs how present culture adapts in the material?
    That's purely an opinion question, and I have a preexisting bias.

    1. I imagine that the demon race would change. Would a vast change in the perspective of mortals be more likely to cause the Tanar'ri to warp to using more chemical-based projectile weapons, or more likely for a new race to usurp them as they usurped the Obyriths? Or am I off base, and they'll always be rending claws and swords? Baator seems like it almost certainly just make new weapons with Asmodeus at the bottom of the pit.
    My general position on this is that while you might see the odd one or two that incorporates some kind of modern weaponry, look at our current depictions of angels, demons, etc. and note how few of them (relatively) do so. Our depictions of non-fiendish monsters are similar - and bear in mind that the D&D multiverse has monsters kicking about. Conversely, who pictures Heaven having cell phones or HDMI cables? The fundamental things we feel and believe about these matters are rooted in aspirations beyond technology or fears of its banal and brutal insufficiency. There will always be some place for emotional responses to and beliefs involving that which is modern, but... look, spiders have been freaking people out for millennia and they're not going out of style anytime soon.

    All of your questions make the assumption that technological advancements overtake the emotional significance of more traditional things, but you only have to look to Star Wars to see people illogically using melee weapons in a universe of guns. Heck, it's a story about the quests of individual people who need to beat up other individual people juxtaposed against fleets of ships riddled with sizeable cannons. The axe is still seen as a practical and reliable tool even though we've got chainsaws and (if we wanted to be particularly excessive) lasers. Hawkeye and Green Arrow have featured in pop cultural releases of the past 10 years on the big screen and the small, respectively, despite both of them having a skillset best defined as "guns but so much worse."

    Then, of course, there's the fact that your average demon is already running around with technology considerably worse than medieval stasis can provide. The bow is technology; how many fiends use one? Armor is technology; how often do you see a fiend traipsing about in chainmail? As outsiders, they absolutely can wield bows or halberds or longswords, but how many do? How many would bother? Look to Warhammer 40K for a universe in which the forces of Chaos use mighty technology to their advantage... except the Chaos Daemons, who still rely on flesh, blood, and sorcery.

    As noted, I'm biased and deeply uninterested in the alternative, so there was never any choice in answer for me. As far as I'm concerned based on my personal tastes, it's a non-question. It's also not covered by anything in canon. The Planes are infinite, of course, and exceptions I'm sure crop up somewhere, but it won't be anywhere near me.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    A canon example of how little it seems the planes cares about technological advancement is when Murlynd, Greyhawk's Hero-God of Magical Technology, visited the Wild West of the Americas and brought revolvers back to current-day Oerth. Outside of his church, it's difficult to find anyone adopting firebrands (as his faithful refer to them), mortal or immortal, despite the ease of use and devastating effect they have on those on the wrong end of them, as they're no more capable of dealing with supernatural threats than magical weaponry and spells. So it's an affectation rather than a game-changer.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Are Archons able to reproduce sexually?

    Do they fall in love with each other or marry?

    Do Eladrin have marriage or do they have more of a free love society?

    Did you ever think about which of the celestial races the First Fallen was a member of? Do you think the answer to this question is relevant?

    (Are there pirate Arrrchons? )

    Edit: I'm thinking about making better stats for Queen Morwel than those in The Lazy Book, but I feel that I don't know enough about her. Could you give me all information about her that you think are necessary for that endeavor?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Is Ehlonna the nature goddess a vegetation by any chance? If so does her followers follow her vegetation ways?

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    What is Cyronax's origin? Both in lore and published history. I remember a 3.0 module from sword and sorcery where he played a role as a puppet master kind of, and it also included a random section on the plane of ice. I assume he is a 2e or older holdover that kinda just did not go away?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    D&D has para elemental planes between the standard elemental planes and quasi elemental planes between the elemental planes and the positive and negative energy planes.

    Iirc Ooze is between earth and water, just as cold is between air and water.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    The other paraelements are smoke (air and fire) and magma (fire and earth). The quasielements are radiance (fire and positive), lightning (air and positive), steam (water and positive), mineral (earth and positive), ashes (fire and negative), vacuum (air and negative), salt (water and negative) and dust (earth and negative).
    Any resources fleshing those planes out? I'm willing and able to dive, just need some pointing in the right directions.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    What is Cyronax's origin? Both in lore and published history. I remember a 3.0 module from sword and sorcery where he played a role as a puppet master kind of, and it also included a random section on the plane of ice. I assume he is a 2e or older holdover that kinda just did not go away?
    1e, actually; he showed up with the main four Elemental Princes of Evil in the original Fiend Folio. And it's not so much that he "just didn't go away" and more that being the first paraelemental prince published, having a more distinct appearance than just being an ice paraelemental (a yeti with tentacles!), and having a cooler name than e.g. Bwimb--plus ice being a much more thematically broad and mechanically workable paraelement than smoke, ooze, or lava to build an adventure or campaign around--gives him some good staying power.

    Also, his stronghold is "a huge castle of ice, quartz and glass, situated a the juncture of the Planes of Air and Water and drawing power from the Negative Material Plane," which both sounds like a cool location for an adventure and/or boss fight and gives him lots of connections to other useful monsters and NPCs. The mix of air, water, and negative energy being a sort of quasiparaelemenal setup is unique as far as I can recall and elevated him above a paint-by-numbers paraelemental power in 2e Planescape, and going into 3e that gave him a strong connection to some cool things like Lord of the Uttercold and the various cold-themed undead, which likely also contributed to his popularity.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2019-11-28 at 02:18 AM.
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