Question: way of the 4 element

[Desteplo]

So aside from being the equivalent of a warlock style gish with 1-4 spells a short rest, what's the problem?
-would decreasing cost of spells by 1 solve the issue?

[Clone]

There are a few issues with it from what I've seen, like the price of their abilities and the lack of options of said abilities.

Some "fixes" I've seen are giving the option of one or two of the Elemental Evil cantrips (Mold earth, shape water etc), providing two abilities per milestone rather than 1, and providing new options to mimic the Elemental Evil spells.

Ultimately they're still monks so you can decide to forgo the options if you'd like, but that defeats the point of picking an archetype.

[PeteNutButter]

The costs are too high, so reducing them by one would help but the main problem is the default monk has plenty of need/use for ki. Compare it to the EK who gets a whole different set of spell slots for its subclass.

Also the spells are generally fairly weak for their level.

[Bahamut7]

There is a player made revision to the e elements floating around on the internet that seemed to resolve all the problems.

[Nifft]

There are a few issues with it from what I've seen, like the price of their abilities and the lack of options of said abilities.

Yeah, this is the crux of it.

Too few options, and those options are too expensive if you plan to use regular Monk abilities regularly (which you should).

Compare to the Shadow Monk, who gets:
- Level 3: learn one good cantrip and 4 spells, each of which cost 2 ki points to cast, and some of which can negate or avoid an encounter. You can use the cantrip all day without spending any ki points.
- Level 6: teleport all day without spending any ki points.
- Level 11: turn invisible without spending any ki points.
- Level 17: get extra attacks without spending any ki points.

Note the differences between that set of powers and the 4 Elements power set. The Shadow Monk has spells, and can pay Ki to activate those spells, but:
(a) Shadow gets as many spell choices at 3rd level as the 4 Elements would get at 17th level; and
(b) Shadow gets 4 abilities which don't cost any ki to use.

4 Elements Monk needs:
- More choices; and
- More things to do that don't cost ki.

There is a player made revision to the e elements floating around on the internet that seemed to resolve all the problems.

There are several.

[Brawnspear]

4 Elements Monk needs:
- More choices; and
- More things to do that don't cost ki.

Agreed. My main issue with the 4 elements is the only costless thing they get is a cantrip, and none of their special abilities synergize with the base monk abilities since they're all action casts that don't trigger martial arts or enable flurry or anything like that.

We are going to be trying some themed free effects out. Basically cantrip level abilities that are slightly better than martial arts bonus action and worse than ki cost bonus actions, that can be used if you use the attack action, or as an action of their own.

Each monk would pick an element (earth air water fire) and they'd get a defensive and offensive bonus action.

Offensive would be a ranged save effect that had a rider and deals damage equal to martial arts die +wis: earth would cause some difficult terrain, water would slow, Air would push, fire would have some splash damage.

Defensive would be something like, create a 5ft high pillar that grants cover or wreathe your self in flames or move 5 ft without provoking attacks of opportunity or give nonmagical ranged weapons disadvantage to hit you.

Maybe let them choose another element at level 10 or something like that, I'm still fleshing it out.

[PloxBox]

Agreed. My main issue with the 4 elements is the only costless thing they get is a cantrip, and none of their special abilities synergize with the base monk abilities since they're all action casts that don't trigger martial arts or enable flurry or anything like that.

We are going to be trying some themed free effects out. Basically cantrip level abilities that are slightly better than martial arts bonus action and worse than ki cost bonus actions, that can be used if you use the attack action, or as an action of their own.

Each monk would pick an element (earth air water fire) and they'd get a defensive and offensive bonus action.

Offensive would be a ranged save effect that had a rider and deals damage equal to martial arts die +wis: earth would cause some difficult terrain, water would slow, Air would push, fire would have some splash damage.

Defensive would be something like, create a 5ft high pillar that grants cover or wreathe your self in flames or move 5 ft without provoking attacks of opportunity or give nonmagical ranged weapons disadvantage to hit you.

Maybe let them choose another element at level 10 or something like that, I'm still fleshing it out.

though I'll admiti haven't seen many fixes for 4E monk, i like you're the most.

[Aett_Thorn]

Could we combine Way of the 4 Elements Monk with the Wu Jen mystic a bit? Convert the prices of the more elemental-themed Disciplines into ki, and keep the level restrictions on number of ki you can spend on an ability at once.

At each level you'd get to pick a new ability, you could choose off of the 4E list, or go for another Discipline. The lack of ki compared to psi points would be a major limiting factor in using the higher-point abilities, but it would give you more flexibility in how you use your ki.

[Citan]

So aside from being the equivalent of a warlock style gish with 1-4 spells a short rest, what's the problem?
-would decreasing cost of spells by 1 solve the issue?

Power wise, there is no problem at all. It's balanced as is.
It's just a matter of knowing how and when to use those specific abilities instead on spending Ki on normal Monk abilities, but that's the same problem for all disciplines.

Now, houseruling a 1 point decrease in cost spell shouldn't break anything either, so if you want feel free to do so.

Playstyle wise, a payer may be frustrated by having so few Discipline known, so an easy fix is to allow him to learn one more Discipline at each "step".
That's the only houserule I would recommend any and every time. :)

[SharkForce]

as noted:

- costs are probably a bit high
- are you really a master of 4 elements if you can only do so few things? presumably, the idea is to capture the avatar <element> bending concept... but benders are very versatile. if they can only do a few things, then each of those things must be usable in a variety of ways.
- costs remove from your basic "be a monk" budget; using just about any 4e monk ability makes you less able to do other monk things. this is mostly a problem because:
- very few 4 elements monk abilities actually synergize with being a monk.

in contrast, as noted, look at the shadow monk; those spells they get generally synergize with being able to sneak around (which is well within a monk's wheelhouse), and where they are actions you would use in a combat at all, they're actions that focus on doing what monks do best; taking out the "artillery". meanwhile, their other abilities don't cost their action *or* their ki. bonus action teleport just gives them new mobility options, and while it interferes with flurry they're still able to use their regular action to attack (in contrast, you can't flurry or use martial arts bonus attack unless you use an attack action). so only some of the shadow monk abilities take ki away from your core monk activities, and even those tend to feel like you're doing what a monk should be doing.

so quick fix might be as simple as: elemental monk abilites cost less, and the ones that cost an action all allow you to use martial arts or flurry of blows to make bonus attacks. you'd still only be able to do a handful of things, but then again, i said it's a quick fix, not a comprehensive one :P

[TheUser]

Power wise, there is no problem at all. It's balanced as is.
It's just a matter of knowing how and when to use those specific abilities instead on spending Ki on normal Monk abilities, but that's the same problem for all disciplines.

Now, houseruling a 1 point decrease in cost spell shouldn't break anything either, so if you want feel free to do so.

Playstyle wise, a payer may be frustrated by having so few Discipline known, so an easy fix is to allow him to learn one more Discipline at each "step".
That's the only houserule I would recommend any and every time. :)

People often forget that at each level that their disciplines increase they can also swap 1 for another.

Getting fireball and fly at level 11 makes a big difference for instance and I'm very unlikely to need shatter anymore. This also means you can swap out elemental attunement at level 6 which most players don't a) know or b) do.

[nickl_2000]

If you haven't read about Kryx's Monk revision you should. I love the idea of it, and would love to be allowed to play it.

[Brawnspear]

though I'll admiti haven't seen many fixes for 4E monk, i like you're the most.

Thanks! We'll actually have our first test of it tonight, if my player remembers they have the abilities :D. I just wanted to give them some options without tweaking the balance too much. We shall see how it works out!

[utopus]

I would recommend checking out reddit's /r/boh5e. It's a curated homebrew subreddit, and one person reworked the Wot4E subclass to make it more competitive compared to other classes, and more fun to play

[Creyzi4j]

FistbofbUnbroken Air and Water Whip is prettt nice.
Getting both of them means you are pretty flexible on what to use. Got a nasty rogue opponent with really high DEX saves? Use fist of unbroken air on it (coz it's a STR save)

Other big bosses like dragons seem to have low dex saves. So you could use that water whip instead of fist

[Tanarii]

No. The costs are right in the money. If you assume the Monk will spend 1/2 of his Ki on generic monk abilities, and 1/2 on Four Elements abilities, they are exactly scaled as 1/3 casters.

The problem is twofold:
1) they need to spend a significant amount of Ki that would otherwise be used on general monk abilities, 1/2 of it. Open Hand and Shadow Monks dont.
2) unlike 1/3 casters, they don't get anything else to go along with it. Elemental Attunement is flavorful, but far too weak for the only cost-free ability. EKs and ATs get cantrips and lots of useful abilities on top of their casting.

The problem is reducing costs just means they can spam more fireballs or whatever, making them far more powerful than the 1/3 caster they are supposed to be. So you can't do that to fix #1.

What you can do is add a butt-load of minor useful abilities on top of their 'casting'. Something that enhances some of their normal use of Ki (similar to Open Hand) would might be the first place to start. Then something to add better 'cantrip' abilities wouldn't go amiss.

Some of the best solutions I've seen involve the EE cantrips. That's a good start for addressing issue #2. But it doesn't really address issue #1

[SharkForce]

No. The costs are right in the money. If you assume the Monk will spend 1/2 of his Ki on generic monk abilities, and 1/2 on Four Elements abilities, they are exactly scaled as 1/3 casters.

The problem is twofold:
1) they need to spend a significant amount of Ki that would otherwise be used on general monk abilities, 1/2 of it. Open Hand and Shadow Monks dont.
2) unlike 1/3 casters, they don't get anything else to go along with it. Elemental Attunement is flavorful, but far too weak for the only cost-free ability. EKs and ATs get cantrips and lots of useful abilities on top of their casting.

The problem is reducing costs just means they can spam more fireballs or whatever, making them far more powerful than the 1/3 caster they are supposed to be. So you can't do that to fix #1.

What you can do is add a butt-load of minor useful abilities on top of their 'casting'. Something that enhances some of their normal use of Ki (similar to Open Hand) would might be the first place to start. Then something to add better 'cantrip' abilities wouldn't go amiss.

Some of the best solutions I've seen involve the EE cantrips. That's a good start for addressing issue #2. But it doesn't really address issue #1

yeah, the fact that they scale exactly as 1/3 casters, but do so by scaling 1/2 on ki... and gain absolutely none of the abilities that 1/3 casters gain to combine the two parts... that makes them work worse than other 1/3 casters.

[Citan]

No. The costs are right in the money. If you assume the Monk will spend 1/2 of his Ki on generic monk abilities, and 1/2 on Four Elements abilities, they are exactly scaled as 1/3 casters.

The problem is twofold:
1) they need to spend a significant amount of Ki that would otherwise be used on general monk abilities, 1/2 of it. Open Hand and Shadow Monks dont.
2) unlike 1/3 casters, they don't get anything else to go along with it. Elemental Attunement is flavorful, but far too weak for the only cost-free ability. EKs and ATs get cantrips and lots of useful abilities on top of their casting.

The problem is reducing costs just means they can spam more fireballs or whatever, making them far more powerful than the 1/3 caster they are supposed to be. So you can't do that to fix #1.

What you can do is add a butt-load of minor useful abilities on top of their 'casting'. Something that enhances some of their normal use of Ki (similar to Open Hand) would might be the first place to start. Then something to add better 'cantrip' abilities wouldn't go amiss.

Some of the best solutions I've seen involve the EE cantrips. That's a good start for addressing issue #2. But it doesn't really address issue #1

The homebrew class I made (but never had time to finish unfortunately) built on that idea of mixing elements directly with weapon attacks.

So I'd say a direct, not overboard fix would be to expand on the Fire Snake Fangs idea and allow Elemental Monk to change the type of his weapon attack's damage to any elemental, during the whole turn, for one Ki, using the "free interaction" time. Gives something that directly synergizes with Monk being a martial, makes him better and provides motivation to analyse enemy's weaknesses.

OR, give him "manoeuver-like", once/turn effect on unarmed strike for 1 ki: push 5 feet away (wind), deprives reaction (water - ice around limbs), extra damage or disadvantage on next attack/check (fire -burning hampering focus), reduced speed (earth -extra weight) that lasts until the end of enemy's next turn. More powerful, still not breaking anything (obviously a save is required), but provides fluff options that cost less than official disciplines (in ki and action economy).

Beyond that, allow Monk to choose one cantrip among Mold Earth, Shape Water, Gust and Control Flames (EE cantrips that cannot directly deal damage) and make him one more each step so he ends with all of them.

[Tanarii]

yeah, the fact that they scale exactly as 1/3 casters, but do so by scaling 1/2 on ki... and gain absolutely none of the abilities that 1/3 casters gain to combine the two parts... that makes them work worse than other 1/3 casters.

Agreed. I used to argue that they were 1/3 so that's that and they're fine. But enough threads discussing this topic brought me to understand exactly where the problem lies.

They do have the advantage over other 1/3 casters in they can effectively double their 'spells per day' by spending all their Ki on Elemental effects if needed, at the cost of not using their base abilities at all. Or not spend anything on them if they aren't needed and base Ki abilities are more. And that kind of flexibility is not without value. But I can see now that probably doesn't really balance things out.

[EdenIndustries]

Agreed. I used to argue that they were 1/3 so that's that and they're fine. But enough threads discussing this topic brought me to understand exactly where the problem lies.

They do have the advantage over other 1/3 casters in they can effectively double their 'spells per day' by spending all their Ki on Elemental effects if needed, at the cost of not using their base abilities at all. Or not spend anything on them if they aren't needed and base Ki abilities are more. And that kind of flexibility is not without value. But I can see now that probably doesn't really balance things out.

This is quite true. Consider that at level 11 they get access to Fireball (1/3 casters don't get 3rd-level spells yet) and can cast it twice per short rest, and three times per short rest at level 12! 1/3 casters can only dream of nine Fireballs a day at level 12, and in a lot of ways that probably makes even 1/2 casters jealous! Now granted, that's all your ki. Even so...that's a healthy amount of Fireballs!

[Desteplo]

They can also dump all their Ki in whater whip, unbroken fist and fire snakes. 21d10 save is harsh

[SharkForce]

This is quite true. Consider that at level 11 they get access to Fireball (1/3 casters don't get 3rd-level spells yet) and can cast it twice per short rest, and three times per short rest at level 12! 1/3 casters can only dream of nine Fireballs a day at level 12, and in a lot of ways that probably makes even 1/2 casters jealous! Now granted, that's all your ki. Even so...that's a healthy amount of Fireballs!

you mean they can be a crappier warlock because their spells are not scaled up to level 5 eventually (and they also get them later than the warlock) and they won't ever get any level 6+ spells at all, and they lack the invocations of the warlock so that after blowing their resources on spell slots that are crappier than a warlock would get, they're left with at-will abilities that are also worse than a warlock has?

gee, i wonder why people might think there's a problem...

[EdenIndustries]

you mean they can be a crappier warlock because their spells are not scaled up to level 5 eventually (and they also get them later than the warlock) and they won't ever get any level 6+ spells at all, and they lack the invocations of the warlock so that after blowing their resources on spell slots that are crappier than a warlock would get, they're left with at-will abilities that are also worse than a warlock has?

gee, i wonder why people might think there's a problem...

Well Warlocks are full casters (equivalently). If the idea is that the Way of the 4 Elements Monk scales along with a 1/3 caster, it doesn't really seem meaningful to try comparing them to a full caster.

[SharkForce]

Well Warlocks are full casters (equivalently). If the idea is that the Way of the 4 Elements Monk scales along with a 1/3 caster, it doesn't really seem meaningful to try comparing them to a full caster.

it does if you're going to burn all the resources they have (and which they need to fulfill their base class abilities effectively) on acting like a spellcaster.

warlocks get more spells available, better spell slots, more abilities that don't cost spell slots, and arguably better damage when no resources are in play as compared to a 4 elements monk who is trying to act like a warlock (it's actually pretty close in damage between levels 5 and 11, but the warlock is doing that damage from range). now, if blowing all their resources on damage left them as competent in their base class as, say, a battlemaster fighter who has expended all superiority dice, or an eldritch knight who has run out of spell slots, no problem. the base fighter, even without any archetype abilities, is going to have good consistent damage and survivability and fairly impressive burst damage thanks to action surge. but a monk with no ki is not like a fighter without superiority dice. apart from level 1-3 (when they get easy access to a bonus action attack and most others have nothing like that yet, with the possible exception of variant humans), monk damage is not that good. and with no ki, their base class abilities are not doing much either; no bonus action disengage, dash, or dodge. no flurry of blows. no stunning blow.

so if the monk is going to give up on being an effective monk in order to gain mediocre spellcasting, there's a problem. the eldritch knight isn't going to be jealous for very long once they realize how useless the monk after blowing all their ki on fireball spells.

[EdenIndustries]

it does if you're going to burn all the resources they have (and which they need to fulfill their base class abilities effectively) on acting like a spellcaster.

warlocks get more spells available, better spell slots, more abilities that don't cost spell slots, and arguably better damage when no resources are in play as compared to a 4 elements monk who is trying to act like a warlock (it's actually pretty close in damage between levels 5 and 11, but the warlock is doing that damage from range). now, if blowing all their resources on damage left them as competent in their base class as, say, a battlemaster fighter who has expended all superiority dice, or an eldritch knight who has run out of spell slots, no problem. the base fighter, even without any archetype abilities, is going to have good consistent damage and survivability and fairly impressive burst damage thanks to action surge. but a monk with no ki is not like a fighter without superiority dice. apart from level 1-3 (when they get easy access to a bonus action attack and most others have nothing like that yet, with the possible exception of variant humans), monk damage is not that good. and with no ki, their base class abilities are not doing much either; no bonus action disengage, dash, or dodge. no flurry of blows. no stunning blow.

so if the monk is going to give up on being an effective monk in order to gain mediocre spellcasting, there's a problem. the eldritch knight isn't going to be jealous for very long once they realize how useless the monk after blowing all their ki on fireball spells.

Well I don't necessarily agree, but I also don't really care enough about the 4 elements monk to spend more time on it. You win!

[djreynolds]

So aside from being the equivalent of a warlock style gish with 1-4 spells a short rest, what's the problem?
-would decreasing cost of spells by 1 solve the issue?

You must short rest and make it a priority. That is what you have to do when playing a battlemaster, warlock, or any monk.

Let them run off and tell them you are short resting for 1 hour

If you short rest twice a day, it isn't bad.

We have an elemental monk at our table, used water whip to trip up a giant. There is no size requirement for the water whip and it is a dex save. Theoretically you could prone a dragon.

Now the question is whether a way of the 4 elements monks could benefit from elemental adept with fangs of the fire snake and spell sniper

[Citan]

you mean they can be a crappier warlock because their spells are not scaled up to level 5 eventually (and they also get them later than the warlock) and they won't ever get any level 6+ spells at all, and they lack the invocations of the warlock so that after blowing their resources on spell slots that are crappier than a warlock would get, they're left with at-will abilities that are also worse than a warlock has?

gee, i wonder why people might think there's a problem...

You are on a trend these times SharForce...
Comparing a martial class with impressive mobility, defense and various panel of offense (before even starting blowing ki) with a fullcaster that usually has to spend quite a few abilities to protect himself (granted, fortunately, Patron do give him short-rest ones) but still stays extremely frail in comparison...

Gee, I wonder why people might think there's a problem... Indeed. Obviously making stupid comparisons -or supposing a Monk would be stupid about how to blow his resources- doesn't help at all.

[Kryx]

No. The costs are right in the money.

Yup, the costs align with the DMG's spell point system. Reducing the costs would throw the balance of the spell system out of wack.

The issue is the monk's core features are not aligned with that system. Stunning Strike costing 1 ki is madness. The monk doesn't do sufficient damage and that feature is often cited as the main function of a monk (at the cost of all other features imo). The stunned condition only occurs on Contagion (after a bunch of saving throw failures), as an 8th level spell to a target with 150 hit points or fewer, on a few monsters (illithid), and another high level effect or two.
Stunning Strike being so readily available to a 5th level monk at such a low cost is absolutely breaking with the balance of the game. While Stunning Strike costs 1 ki no other ki options can be competitively priced as everything will be judged against that. "Should I cast this spell for 5 ki, or should I attempt stun the boss 5 times?" In terms of efficiency the second option is almost always far superior.


Monks have as much ki as a half caster has effective spell points assuming the game's expected adventuring day. Comparisons to EK level casting or Warlock level casting is misplaced. See Caster Comparison at the end for those numbers.

If you haven't read about Kryx's Monk revision you should. I love the idea of it, and would love to be allowed to play it.

Thanks man! I'm glad you appreciate all the work I put into that rework. If anyone else is curious check out my houserules. Monk starts on page 56 and includes many elemental archetypes (changes are discussed on page 23).

[SharkForce]

You are on a trend these times SharForce...
Comparing a martial class with impressive mobility, defense and various panel of offense (before even starting blowing ki) with a fullcaster that usually has to spend quite a few abilities to protect himself (granted, fortunately, Patron do give him short-rest ones) but still stays extremely frail in comparison...

Gee, I wonder why people might think there's a problem... Indeed. Obviously making stupid comparisons -or supposing a Monk would be stupid about how to blow his resources- doesn't help at all.

when it fits, they will be compared. the monk's high mobility and survivability is only relevant if it has some ability to cause significant harm. for a monk with no ki, that isn't the case. so if we're claiming the 4 elements monk is supposed to just blow all ki on spells (ie act like a spellcaster), leaving them completely ineffective at doing anything else, i'm going to compare them to other classes that do the same thing.

i didn't bring up the idea that the 4 element monk being able to go full-blown into casting spells was an advantage. so don't complain to me that it's where the discussion went.

if, on the other hand, people want to continue to work from the assumption that the monk is not supposed to turn into a pure spellcaster when entering the 4 elements subclass, i'll continue to compare it to other subclasses that add spellcasting... which it compares unfavourably to as well (though not as poorly as it does at being a spellcaster). and where the problem still remains; without ki, a monk is pretty useless. yes, they're hard to kill (though actually, a significant amount of their survivability also uses ki). no, that isn't enough to mean anything the vast majority of the time. it usually just means you get to sit there and watch helplessly while everyone else gets wrecked, because you can be safely ignored.

[Kane0]

The elements monk gains abilities that don't mesh well with standard monk MO while at the same time using the same resources. Its a conflict of interest that makes things difficult.

Lots of things can be done about that:
- Adding to that resource pool to reduce competition (eg. Add Wis mod to Ki Pool)
- Altering costs to increase efficiency (ie reduce Ki cost)
- Changing mechanics to not all draw from the one place (either by altering options to be free or giving a separate pool to use them)
- Adding additional options to bring it all together (like adding EE cantrips and other little bonuses)

There are quick and dirty fixes, complete houserule/homebrew overhauls and everything in between available, and all of them are perfectly valid approaches*
*Provided all at the table agree that such changes are fun and fair.