The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[ViperMagnum357]

The Xill has 4 arms and +6 Dex, putting the MWF line front and center. That is a huge boost for a martial, especially a non-initiator who will likely rely on hitting things with weapons to be useful. The rest is solid but unspectacular-moving freely to the Ethereal Plane is nice, but few other bonuses of note pigeonhole a Xill into a martial build, where the 4 arms should determine the LA. 5 Outsider HD are very solid, keeping full BAB and effectively dropping to a D8 in return for 2 more good saves, and skill points are always nice.

I would say LA+2 or +3, because I think people undervalue 4 arms with a sizable Dex bonus for reaching the full MWF tree.

[GreatWyrmGold]

A Xill has to MAINTAIN the grapple in the next round in order to get the paralysis attempt.
Most likely, if you don't go heavy on grappling, you're not going to be be maintaining the grapple on anyone worthwhile. Besides, the Save DC on the paralysis isn't that great.

Planewalk isn't bad, but my read on it is that you can only take one person with you at a time, so it'd take a bit before you could transfer the whole party - good for bypassing obstacles, but not so good for combat or other time-sensitive needs.



I'm leaning towards a strong +0, or a weak +1.

Those are neither useless (though they are situational), nor are they the xill's only advantages. And I don't think it's unfair to consider the potential potency of grappling builds for xills, any more than it is to consider the potential potency of nymph druid builds.

[javcs]

Those are neither useless (though they are situational), nor are they the xill's only advantages. And I don't think it's unfair to consider the potential potency of grappling builds for xills, any more than it is to consider the potential potency of nymph druid builds.

I didn't say they were useless.
Planewalk is a useful non-combat/non-time-sensitive ability, albeit a situational one. It's going to be useful until you're dealing with places with defenses against ethereal incursions, but even at that point, it can still be somewhat useful, albeit in even more restricted situations. On the other hand, it's not particularly gamebreaking or game-warping, either.

Paralysis, however, is much less useful - most of those whom you can viably grapple and maintain the grapple on, are likely to not be worth spending two full rounds on, unless you go with a full-on grapple-build, reducing your utility outside of grappling. Grapple-builds are situationally useful themselves, and I don't feel that having a grapple-rider ability truly merits a meaningful LA increase.



Xills would make pretty good rogues, though. Compatible racial skills, and the extra arms and natural attacks would compensate for being a couple Sneak Attack dice behind.

[Remuko]

Put me down for +0 or +1. Most of its traits don't actually matter or are worse than class features.

I concur with this.

Also I didnt know Xill were so unknown! I'd wanted to play one for a long time and in my group they were so well known (among the players) that when one of our DMs made a D20 modern campaign where all the soldiers had Codenames named after D&D creatures, one of them was indeed Xill.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The Xill has 4 arms and +6 Dex, putting the MWF line front and center. That is a huge boost for a martial, especially a non-initiator who will likely rely on hitting things with weapons to be useful. The rest is solid but unspectacular-moving freely to the Ethereal Plane is nice, but few other bonuses of note pigeonhole a Xill into a martial build, where the 4 arms should determine the LA. 5 Outsider HD are very solid, keeping full BAB and effectively dropping to a D8 in return for 2 more good saves, and skill points are always nice.

I would say LA+2 or +3, because I think people undervalue 4 arms with a sizable Dex bonus for reaching the full MWF tree.

MWF isn't that impressive. Multiattack is much more useful. You can THF with 2.5STR to damage, then make some claw off-hands if you feel like it.

[lord_khaine]

Or fight with one hand on a shield and 3 on your axe.
If we compare a Xil/barbarian1 with a human barbarian 6;

Then the Xill will hit about 2 points better.
Do about 6 more points of damage if we assume both start with an 18 in str.
Have about 10 more points of AC. (assuming 1 hand holds a shield)
Posses saves that on average are about 2 points higher than the barbarians.
Move 10 feet faster per round.
Have 2 less HP than the barbarian. But get 2 more HP each level after level 6.
Gets about twice as many skill points as the barbarian.

And then also get spell resistance, plane shift, improved grap and a save or lose poison attack.
to compensate the Barbarian can rage 1 additional time each day.

But at this point the Xill is superior in just about every numerical way. The question is not if it should get a LA, but how much.

A Xill has to MAINTAIN the grapple in the next round in order to get the paralysis attempt.
Most likely, if you don't go heavy on grappling, you're not going to be be maintaining the grapple on anyone worthwhile. Besides, the Save DC on the paralysis isn't that great.

Then they waste their time trying to break free, and you can pummel them again with your claws, then get your free grapple attempt.

SR 21 at ECL 5-6 is very nice. It won't drop off in utility until ECL 12+.

I would say it remains its utility after those levels as well. I have seen one high level PC get taken down by minions with low level scrolls/wands. Lesser Elemental orbs and magic missiles are pretty easy to hit with. And if you have 9-10 friends then the damage can suddenly add up swiftly.

Also a lot of nasty outsiders have spell like abilities at a relatively low caster level. If they come in groups of 2/4 then they can suddenly be a challenge even for a higher level party.

[Thurbane]

Xill

• Medium Outsider
• 40 ft move.
• +7 natural AC: decent.
• 4 natural attacks/4 arms for wielding weapons: solid.
• Implant: nasty, but no practical use for an adventurer.
• Improved Grab: nice for a grappling build.
• Paralysis 1d4 hours: nice. Save or die, although you need to successfully grapple the opponent.
• Darkvision 60ft.
• Planewalk: slow but unlimited Planeshift to and from the Ethereal; nice.
• SR 21: not to be sneezed at.
• Str +4, Dex +6, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +2: net +18, no negatives. Sweet.
• 5 RHD of the equally best type: full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/level, full MWP.
• Decent array of racial skills.
• Multiattack as a bonus feat.

Pros: good stats, 4 limbs, decent move, decent natural AC, plane shifting ability, improved grab/paralysis. Cons: 5 RHD.

I'm voting LA +2 here. This is a solid chassis for most melee types.

[Caelestion]

Having Outsider RHD is its main perk, in as much as they're actually useful, but I think that the stat bonuses aren't that amazing, particularly compared to said RHD.

I'd say +1 or +2, if only because it's an effective monster at 6th-7th, but its lack of class abilities means that it will be behind the curve somewhat when comes to accumulating any.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If two rounds gives you a significant chance of paralyzing a target, taking them out of the fight, that's an option worth keeping in mind. What does this option cost? Red skin and a couple of feats? It's also worth noting that, depending on your interpretation of "If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round" (and how strictly you follow common sense vs. RAW), that might be a significant chance of paralyzing a target each round. Sure, it won't be very effective against big nasty monsters, with their high grapple checks and fortitude saves, but enemy casters generally won't be as effective at either.
Sure, it's only effective against a select group of enemies...but the same is true of a bard's music, a cleric's turn undead, and a paladin's smite. It's not an entire build in and of itself, but it sits as solidly equivalent to a class feature. That's worth mentioning.

Solid chassis, a few neat and notable abilities, four arms...I'm still fine calling it +1.

[Blue Jay]

I think I like +1 for the xill. I don't think +2 is necessary, but I wouldn't complain about +0.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yeah, seeing how it does the barbarian in the above comparison, I think +2 is perfectly fair.

[Jormengand]

Wait, I'm confused, NOW we're allowed to use barbarian as a comparison point?

[GreatWyrmGold]

I don't think there have ever been solid rules on what we can or can't use as a comparison point.
The way I see it, it makes the most sense to compare monsters to the characters whose combat roles they most closely resemble. I mean, we could compare them to T1 casters, but then everything would be -0 and that's boring.

[Jormengand]

I was more objecting to the notion that barbarian was a ridiculous comparison point for a wyvern but an entirely sensible one for the xill.

EDIT: I also love how some people are advocating +2 LA for the xill, but a wyvern with no LA would crush a xill with 2 LA.

[javcs]

I was more objecting to the notion that barbarian was a ridiculous comparison point for a wyvern but an entirely sensible one for the xill.

I don't think that's a particularly defensible notion either.

EDIT: I also love how some people are advocating +2 LA for the xill, but a wyvern with no LA would crush a xill with 2 LA.

Combat value is not the sole metric relevant for determining LA.



That said, Xill are not a +2, IMO.

[Nifft]

a wyvern with no LA would crush a xill with 2 LA.

Xill sees the Wyvern from more than 2 rounds of movement away.

Xill leaves the plane.

Seriously, plane shifting at will is pretty good.

Also: hands.

Also also: "Forewarned is four-armed" so they're immune to surprise.

[Jormengand]

Combat value is not the sole metric relevant for determining LA.

Xill don't have any value other than combat value. They have four arms, which is almost entirely useful for more weapons (I don't think that holding more objects out of combat is worth even considering in LA). They have +2 int, which is a skill point (a whole one!) and similarly a +1 or +3 to some skills from ability scores (hint: they're skills the Wyvern didn't need and has a bigger bonus to, like climb and jump). Woop de do. Nothing I see on the xill tells me that we should be concerned about what they can do out of combat, because the answer to that is "About as much as a grey elf who's been hitting the weights a lot recently".

[Inevitability]

Xill don't have any value other than combat value. They have four arms, which is almost entirely useful for more weapons (I don't think that holding more objects out of combat is worth even considering in LA). They have +2 int, which is a skill point (a whole one!) and similarly a +1 or +3 to some skills from ability scores (hint: they're skills the Wyvern didn't need and has a bigger bonus to, like climb and jump). Woop de do. Nothing I see on the xill tells me that we should be concerned about what they can do out of combat, because the answer to that is "About as much as a grey elf who's been hitting the weights a lot recently".

I think you overlooked Planewalk.

Planewalk (Su)
These planar travelers like to slip between the folds of space to attack enemies as though from thin air. They can cross from the Ethereal Plane with a move action but take 2 rounds to cross back, during which time they are immobile. As a xill fades away, it becomes harder to hit: Opponents have a 20% miss chance in the first round and a 50% miss chance in the second. A xill can planewalk with a willing or helpless creature.

This ability allows for unmatched scouting, perfect stealth with ambush potential, and the ability to circumvent nearly all barriers or encounters (and, for once, actually take your party along). Also, it's precise and will at most result in one or two ethereal plane encounters while you bypass dozens of material ones.

[javcs]

Xill don't have any value other than combat value. They have four arms, which is almost entirely useful for more weapons (I don't think that holding more objects out of combat is worth even considering in LA). They have +2 int, which is a skill point (a whole one!) and similarly a +1 or +3 to some skills from ability scores (hint: they're skills the Wyvern didn't need and has a bigger bonus to, like climb and jump). Woop de do. Nothing I see on the xill tells me that we should be concerned about what they can do out of combat, because the answer to that is "About as much as a grey elf who's been hitting the weights a lot recently".

Xills generally synergize nicely with a Rogue-like skillset. Or that of a Ranger/similar.
Planewalk has significant non-combat utility for bypassing obstacles and exploration in general. Also utility for scouting and getting into places unnoticed (B&E or theft). My read on it is only one person at a time, so it's not so good at moving the whole party when things are time-sensitive/in combat, but for getting into position beforehand, it still works.


Also, Xill's, unlike Wyverns, are going to be able to accompany the party pretty much anywhere. Physically, anyway. There may or may not be cultural issues with the Xill in some locations, but that's easier to work around, and such issues would likely be worse for a Wyvern than a Xill anyways.
That's not a bonus for the Xill, but it is a penalty for the Wyvern.



However, if we're comparing to other monsters, we should probably compare the Xill with the Ethereal Filcher and Ethereal Marauder, not the Wyvern.

Edit: I suppose there are other creatures with abilities similar to Planewalk, but they generally also have other abilities (Hag).

[Jormengand]

I think you overlooked Planewalk.



This ability allows for unmatched scouting, perfect stealth with ambush potential, and the ability to circumvent nearly all barriers or encounters (and, for once, actually take your party along). Also, it's precise and will at most result in one or two ethereal plane encounters while you bypass dozens of material ones.

Scouting, stealth and ambush are part of combat. And I'm not sure that being able to become ethereal over the course of longer than most combats last is very helpful, unless you really do spot the enemy from a ridiculously unlikely distance away (I don't think I've been in combats that have started far enough away for me to need to double-check my weapon's range increment, for comparison). Alternatively, you spend all your time ethereal and therefore not playing the game.

[Inevitability]

Alternatively, you spend all your time ethereal and therefore not playing the game.

I'll let you have the assumptions that stealth is a part of combat (I beg to differ) or that no encounter ever starts with both parties a fair distance away from each other (or, god forbid, one party ethereal), but this I really want to respond to.

This quote makes it sound as if a player who chooses to be an Xill and then proceeds to use his race's main ability isn't 'playing the game'. That's nonsense.

Imagine, if you want, a scenario where an orc warlord, situated in a fortified camp crawling with orcs, must be assassinated.


If Bob the fighter rushes in and starts cutting through the horde until he reaches the warlord, then slay him, he is playing the game.

If Llyra the rogue quaffs a potion of invisibility, skulks past the orcs, and kills the warlord in their sleep, she's playing the game.

If Glornwel the bard uses Disguise Self to appear as an orc and infiltrate the camp, waiting for a moment to strike, they're playing the game.

If Vwermzoawe the druid turns into a badger and burrows into the warlord's tent, then awaits their return, he's playing the game.

If Lady Noblebright the paladin challenges the orc to single combat to the death, she is playing the game.

If Xrill the Xill turns ethereal, appears inside the orc leader's tent, and quadru-claws them to death, why wouldn't they be playing the game?


Xills have an ability that is useful in a wide range of situations. You are blatantly denying this by consolidating a large number of uses into 'combat', then proceed to state that using the ability to solve problems doesn't count as playing D&D anymore.

[Jormengand]

If Xrill the Xill turns ethereal, appears inside the orc leader's tent, and quadru-claws them to death, why wouldn't they be playing the game?

He would be. But previously, you were making out that the main use of etherealness was "Bypass encounters", that is, "Bypass D&D".

[Inevitability]

He would be. But previously, you were making out that the main use of etherealness was "Bypass encounters", that is, "Bypass D&D".

Well, in traveling to the orc leader's tent he'd be bypassing a lot of potential encounters. So, however, would the rogue, so would the bard, and so would the druid.

The thing is: in actual games there's no list of encounters you can either interact with (thereby playing D&D) or avoid (thereby not playing D&D). It doesn't work like that: there's goals, which can be reached through a variety of paths, along which various encounters can be found that may be taken care of in any way chosen.

If you choose to circumvent ten rooms of generic monsters to immediately fight the BBEG, using abilities you spent levels and resources on, you should be able to without being blamed for 'bypassing D&D'.

Etherealness is useful, in that it allows people to concentrate resources on the fights that matter story-wise. In doing so, no inherent value of the game is lost: there will simply be different things happening during the game.

Sure, to some people this may not be fun, but for every strategy there are people who don't think it's fun. Doesn't mean we can't consider those when assigning LA.

[javcs]

You'd be able to bypass speedbump or tripwire encounters, as well as traps and other obstacles. Like, say, cave-ins, walls, broken bridges, etc.


However, you cannot use Planewalker to go ethereal and thus bypass all encounters. Or, rather, if you try to stay ethereal all the time and have no interactions with the material plane ... you (the player) aren't actually even trying to play the game, you're just trolling the DM and the other players, and they'll kick you out, or tell you to make a new character that actually adventures with the rest of the party. That's a player-problem, not a creature-ability problem.


Planewalker is a tool that can be used to skip over most roadblocks, speedbumps, tripwires, and other obstacles. But, by doing so, you're trading off the potential to gain information from interacting with that encounter, as well as loot, and any other gains you could have gotten, depending on the encounter. You may well decide to come back to them and deal with them after you've cut the lines of communications with those behind them (or gotten rid of those behind them)


If the party is trying to clear a dungeon complex ... a Xill can go ethereal to scout the place out, learn the layout and find out where monsters are based. A Xill can take the party ethereal with it and lead the party past the outer defenses, to a safe point to return to the material plane and take out the monsters from behind, even ambush the most dangerous monsters before they (and the rest of the dungeon) even know that the party is attempting to clear the dungeon out. A Xill cannot just go ethereal and stay ethereal if they want to contribute to the party clearing out the dungeon complex.

If the party is trying to stop an invasion, well ... a Xill can go ethereal and try to decapitate the invading force's leadership, or to learn their plans to give the defenders information. But a Xill going and staying ethereal doesn't do anything to stop the invasion.



Individual encounters (and other obstacles) are, by and large, unimportant. What matters is the goal and how you get there. Whether the goal is self-established (for a more sandboxy-game) or presented by the GM, is unimportant. How you get to the goal can, will, and should vary.

Take, for example, a game like ... oh, Splinter Cell, Hitman, or Assassin's Creed. Or the rebooted Tomb Raider games. Or any number of games that have a similar playstyle. You have a goal/target, but there are multiple paths to get there. Most of the time, anyways. You can sneak past everyone to your target, and let no-one know you there, or you can stealth kill everyone on the way to the target, or you can kick in the door and run and gun it like you're playing Halo on the easiest difficulty.
The Xill's Planewalker ability means it's really good at the sneaking past everyone to the target or the stealthly kill everyone on the way approaches.
No option is objectively "better", per se, than the others. Just different playstyles for different personalities and preferences.

[No brains]

Now this is me talking, but being able to do stupid things that ruin plans like bypassing encounters are part of the tabletop experience. I once accidentally did a dungeon backwards/ bypassed it with levitate. Besides, if a character is quick enough, the stuff a character bypasses is still there to be gotten to later. It's it's an interesting ability, being able to triage dungeons. A good DM can even make solving a dungeon in the right order its own challenge. Who knows what the other monsters can escape with if the alarm is raised.

Another point is that being ethereal is not completely bypassing things. Kuo-Toa, ethereal marauders/ filchers, phase spiders, ghosts, night hags/mares, and force effects (and I guess xill) can still go after a player that's ethereal. Granted that this ability will be able to mess with a lot of low level/ mundane plans, but it isn't a complete get out of jail free card. By sixth level, there's likely to be a few simple foils on the level of a guard dog that barks at invisible creatures.

As for ECL, they don't seem overpowering to me, but they certainly warrant some DM discretion. I'd say they're stronger than the phase spider (ECL6), but weaker than the night hag (ECL11). I think ECL +2 or maybe 3 would work. Ethereal and SR are good defensive traits, but 4 kinda strong arms is not an overwhelming offensive benefit.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Xill don't have any value other than combat value. They have four arms, which is almost entirely useful for more weapons (I don't think that holding more objects out of combat is worth even considering in LA). They have +2 int, which is a skill point (a whole one!) and similarly a +1 or +3 to some skills from ability scores (hint: they're skills the Wyvern didn't need and has a bigger bonus to, like climb and jump). Woop de do. Nothing I see on the xill tells me that we should be concerned about what they can do out of combat, because the answer to that is "About as much as a grey elf who's been hitting the weights a lot recently".

You're still overlooking two of the biggest disadvantages the wyvern has--picking things up and going inside.

He would be. But previously, you were making out that the main use of etherealness was "Bypass encounters", that is, "Bypass D&D".

Let me regale you with a recent tale of my experience playing D&D.

Spoiler: That tale

Show

We were playing the Storm King's Thunder adventure path, and thanks to a certain random encounter, we wound up on a quest to dethrone Guh the hill giant chief a couple of levels early. Now, we could have rushed in the front door and hacked our way through...but that seemed like a boring and inefficient use of our time.
Instead, we had a party member take one of our cart-horses in as tribute (following the lead of several giants doing the same) and used the opportunity to scout out the chief's fortress. Then, under cover of darkness, we water walked across the nearby lake to bypass the defenses and get in the back door before fighting only a fraction of the guards within.

Were we playing D&D? I mean, we were bypassing encounters, and apparently D&D is nothing but the sum of its encounters. The planning? The scouting? The roleplaying? The amusement at Oinker-Boinker the ettin swineherd? None of that counts, because we hadn't rolled initiative?

I just really detest the notion that anything but hack-and-slash isn't playing "real D&D," even more than the various "millennial gamers only care about hack-and-slash" stereotypes.

[Flickerdart]

None of that counts, because we hadn't rolled initiative?

Didn't you know that the only dice roll that counts is d20+Dex? It's on the first page of the Player's Handbook, along with other rules like "fighters are equally as strong as wizards" and "Challenge Ratings are based on logic and are consistent."

[Jormengand]

I just really detest the notion that anything but hack-and-slash isn't playing "real D&D," even more than the various "millennial gamers only care about hack-and-slash" stereotypes.

Stop sparring with scarecrows. If you're having an audience with the king, casting spells to get past people, or trying to fix your ship before it sinks, you're playing the game. If you're sitting about on the etherial walking past people rather than interacting you're not. Which is why in D&D challenging things are encounters (traps and the weather have challenge ratings, going out for a walk on the ethereal doesn't) even if they don't involve stick-hitting.

[Elkad]

Xill
Great stats, No int penalty (which I personally despise), lots of arms, gobs of natural armor, outstanding SR (though it doesn't scale), and even looks good.
Paralysis is a nothing.
Outsider HD are pretty sweet, even if you have to eat 5 of them. Good saves, and a gob of skillpoints fix a lot of weaknesses in your gimpy melee toon.
And then there is Ethereal at will. Yeah, it's slow to enter. Doesn't matter. It's a bunch of utility. Nearly undetectable scouting. Out-of-combat flight.
And only a Move action to drop into the fight. Right in the back line if you want.
It improves basically every melee, ranged or skillmonkey character.


At LA 0 it's just too good. +1 is excellent. +2 is still solid.

+2. I could maybe be argued into +1.

[javcs]

Stop sparring with scarecrows. If you're having an audience with the king, casting spells to get past people, or trying to fix your ship before it sinks, you're playing the game. If you're sitting about on the etherial walking past people rather than interacting you're not. Which is why in D&D challenging things are encounters (traps and the weather have challenge ratings, going out for a walk on the ethereal doesn't) even if they don't involve stick-hitting.

You are the only person proposing going on the Ethereal Plane and then staying there.

Everyone else is proposing using Planewalk to assist in bypassing non-crititical/non-story encounters, and overcoming/bypassing physical obstacles/obstructions.


You're discussing a problem with how the specific player is interacting with the GM and other players, not the Planewalk ability itself.