Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[lord_khaine]

Either that or Eldrad is the eldar version of Ciaphas Cain and he mainly gets by on luck, deus ex machina and a healthy dose of plot armour (combined with still being pretty good at what he does, but not thaaaat good).

I do find that strangely amusing, and dam i would love to read those books. Not certain who i would like to read about most though. Young eager Eldrad who dont really know to much about what he is doing, and mainly goes by on lucky guesses. Or Grumpy old Eldrad who keeps complaining about his knees turning to crystal and those dam humans still going at it.

I see you haven't read Pharos or looked at the spoilers that have been posted multiple times in this thread (and the other fluff threads).

I have not read Pharos no, but must confess i dont put quite as much weight in the generally conflicting Black Library books as i do on codex information. Case in point, the wide divergence between Dan Abnets books and the rest.

There's no blame, just the cold hard truth. The tau survive on plot armour and model sales (so they better hope that they get a good codex!) as the only reason why the imperium doesn't crush them is that they have bigger fish to fry than a pathetic 50'ish world alliance which still hasn't figured out proper ftl sufficient to defend their holdings and attack in force while the only reason that they don't get crushed by non-imperium forces is that they are surrounded by, and inadvertently protected by, the imperium.

Since they have fough off a waarg, and a piece of a hive fleet, then i do think the last bit is at least partly wrong. Clearly their generally superior technology has as much to say about it.

It is in a universe where "might makes right" is the default setting. Given the economies of scale, any non imperial world using resources that the imperium could be using is, by default, wasting resources that could be used to give mankind a leg up over the other races.

That means then it is perfectly alright to point fingers at both the Imperium, the Crusade, and most of all the Emperor, if you can get away with it

Do we actually know what ratio of encountered human civilizations required forced subjugation?

Well we dont really hear about any others than those forced to join, or so desperate for aid against orks ect that they will accept any offer.

[Shadowy]

Oh, and Big E is responsible for the Tyranids. The reason they're here is (probably) because they're attracted towards the giant glowing beacon that is the Astronomican.

So, everything really is his fault!

[Cheesegear]

So, everything really is his fault!

Necrons are implied to have built The Pharos Device.
Roboute ordered Dantioch to study it and turn it on.
Night Lords took the Device.
Dantioch was captured along with it, and decided that no-one should have that kind of power, and blew it up.
Polux got the Device (kind of) working again.

But, yes. You're right. The Emperor was definitely involved in The Battle of Sotha and Mount Pharos. For realz. And Ultramarines - additionally, The Scythes of the Emperor (Homeworld; Sotha) - definitely weren't the worst hit by the Tyranids for no reason.

[hamishspence]

Oh, and Big E is responsible for the Tyranids. The reason they're here is (probably) because they're attracted towards the giant glowing beacon that is the Astronomican.

At least one past Tyranid source stated this outright as I recall.

The modern 40K-verse adds the wrinkle of the Pharos beacon exploding being what first convinced them to head in the direction of the galaxy as a whole - but the Astronomicon may be what's drawing them once they're actually in the galaxy.

[Brookshw]

And Ultramarines - specifically, The Scythes of the Emperor (Homeworld; Sotha) - definitely weren't the worst hit by the Tyranids for no reason.

Ehhhh......pharos wasn't near them was it? And the story was written well after the battle of macragge (though I otherwise agree).

[Cheesegear]

Ehhhh......pharos wasn't near them was it? And the story was written well after the battle of macragge (though I otherwise agree).

Mount Pharos, is a place, on Sotha, a planet, and definitely part of Ultramar.

Hive Fleet Behemoth hit Macragge.
Hive Fleet Kraken hit Sotha - first, and then kept going.

[Drasius]

I have not read Pharos no, but must confess i dont put quite as much weight in the generally conflicting Black Library books as i do on codex information. Case in point, the wide divergence between Dan Abnets books and the rest.

That's would explain a fair bit of why your ideas on how 40k works are rather different from mine since you are ignoring vast swathes of the background.

Since they have fough off a waarg, and a piece of a hive fleet, then i do think the last bit is at least partly wrong. Clearly their generally superior technology has as much to say about it.

Like I said, plot armour. The small fragments that the tau fight is what either flees from the imperium or simply has the good fortune to manage to not run into them. Space is a pretty place to wander around in after all.

That means then it is perfectly alright to point fingers at both the Imperium, the Crusade, and most of all the Emperor, if you can get away with it

Except you're not in that universe so it doesn't apply to you and even if you were, you wouldn't have any might, so it wouldn't apply to you then either. Knowing you, your head would be removed from your shoulders before the end of the day for being a xenos sympathiser anyway, even if you didn't get beaten to death before you finished your first sentence about how much of a flog you reckon the Emperor is. The list of "people" (and I use the term very, very broadly since xenos aren't people and neither are traitors) who can get away with it for more than a few seconds all have their own codex entry.

Out here, you can point all the fingers you like, as long as you don't mind people disagreeing with you.

Well we dont really hear about any others than those forced to join, or so desperate for aid against orks ect that they will accept any offer.

I can remember reading about a few lost worlds eager to join of their own volition and a few who even remembered many of the things before old night separated them, but, as always, a story where the imperial representatives turn up, are welcomed, sign a treaty and go back to their ships and head off to the next planet is both a very short and very boring story and does not sell models.

Oh, and Big E is responsible for the Tyranids. The reason they're here is (probably) because they're attracted towards the giant glowing beacon that is the Astronomican.

So, everything really is his fault!

I choose to believe you are trolling and not just ... let's go with silly since we're the nice forum.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: The passive-aggressive (and occasionally active-aggressive) sniping has been getting worse than usual around here lately. Turn it down a bit and remember that we're discussing fiction.


As for the original question of whether the Emperor is evil...I think it's a matter of perspective. From a humanist viewpoint, no - everything he did was ultimately aimed towards the end-game goal of elevating humanity into a race of psionic gods. And he was making good progress on that end until everything fell apart once he was unable to continue overseeing it. A great deal of that collapse was thanks to his errors and oversights, but that just makes him flawed, not evil. He was a colossal jerk at times, but only evil if you were a xenos since his galactic road map explicitly included genocide against you and anyone remotely non-human like you.



Idle question - since he's been in novels...how tall was the Emperor? The Primarchs and Space Marines regularly tower over ordinary humans. Was the Emperor of similar stature to his creations, or was he of regular human height?

[GolemsVoice]

I remember a poster that was included in a White Dwarf once, showing the Emperor confronting Horus on his ship, and they seemed to be of about equal height, armour and all, so probably only slightly taller than the Primarchs.

[Brookshw]

Mount Pharos, is a place, on Sotha, a planet, and definitely part of Ultramar.

Hive Fleet Behemoth hit Macragge.
Hive Fleet Kraken hit Sotha - first, and then kept going.

Huh, fair enough then.

[Shadowy]

This is completely unsupported by canon, but I choose to believe that The Emperor was a fairly normal sized-human being, even with conan-like proportions.

So he's like seven foot tall, and all his sons, the genetically modified supersoldiers, have around four or five feet on him.

The armor is mostly to make him not appear as a dwarf by comparison.

[hamishspence]

Some canon sources may be hinting at this too - the Mechanicum novel, which shows him, on Earth, as Saint George.

[The Glyphstone]

This is completely unsupported by canon, but I choose to believe that The Emperor was a fairly normal sized-human being, even with conan-like proportions.

So he's like seven foot tall, and all his sons, the genetically modified supersoldiers, have around four or five feet on him.

The armor is mostly to make him not appear as a dwarf by comparison.

That's how I like to imagine it as well, but mostly because I think the visual of the normal-sized Emperor sternly lecturing Primarchs who are twice his height and getting away with it via sheer charisma and presence is amusing.

[GolemsVoice]

Is it still canon that the Emperor was around for almost all of human history, in the form of various important folks? Because if so, than the height(s) he had don't neccessarily tell us how tall he is now.

[Misery Esquire]

Idle question - since he's been in novels...how tall was the Emperor? The Primarchs and Space Marines regularly tower over ordinary humans. Was the Emperor of similar stature to his creations, or was he of regular human height?

Honestly tricky, since he seems to compulsively telepathy everyone he meets into thinking they're meeting the kind of person they want to have met, including appearance. Do we ever get a comment from the Custodes? They're probably the least likely to have any wildly unexpected versions of Big E to see.*


*

Spoiler: Master of Mankind

Show

I mean, aside from Kidmperor in that vision quest.

[Science Officer]

An interesting observation, on the topic of the Emperor's morality, is how his goals compare to the original God-Emperor of Mankind, Leto II.
They shared the same goal of protecting humanity from internal and external threats. They both seized power with military force, and held it also with religious fervor (deliberately, in the case of Leto).
But Leto's goal ultimately was to de-centralize human civilization, to scatter it across so many planets and systems that it would be impossible to be destroyed. What was the Emperor's long-term vision? Would he have unified humanity under one rule and held it that way?

[LansXero]

An interesting observation, on the topic of the Emperor's morality, is how his goals compare to the original God-Emperor of Mankind, Leto II.
They shared the same goal of protecting humanity from internal and external threats. They both seized power with military force, and held it also with religious fervor (deliberately, in the case of Leto).
But Leto's goal ultimately was to de-centralize human civilization, to scatter it across so many planets and systems that it would be impossible to be destroyed. What was the Emperor's long-term vision? Would he have unified humanity under one rule and held it that way?

The emperor abhorred religious fervor; the Lectitio Divinitatus was a proscribed work and grounds for termination during the Crusade era.

The Emperor's Endgame was Mankind evolving into the psychic race they are meant to be, without causing another Old Night or becoming Daemon fodder in the process; once there they could reach new heights previously only held by the Eldar Empire at its prime. With a webway connected Imperium, the Chaos gods starved and complete mastery of the now becalmed warp, it would be a paradise for Imperial humans.

Lesser non-terran strains can kindly just bend the knee or go extinct kthxbye

[Wraith]

But Leto's goal ultimately was to de-centralize human civilization, to scatter it across so many planets and systems that it would be impossible to be destroyed. What was the Emperor's long-term vision? Would he have unified humanity under one rule and held it that way?

With possession of the webway, making intergalactic travel a matter of walking down the street rather than taking an extended hike over an active volcano? Yes. The Crusade would unite humanity under one banner (the Imperium) and with the webway he'd colonise the entire galaxy in the name of Human Supremacy.

With the sealing of the Eternity Gate, that dream died. He couldn't unite all of Humanity, and he'd never reach the far corners of the galaxy - to say nothing of the other problems befouling his armies.

[Forum Explorer]

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Age_of_Strife

A wombo-combo of the iron men, mass emergence of psychers and xeno shenanigans, which is why the imperium doesn't trust any of those 3 things.



Orks get stronger (and larger) the more they fight and more of them gather the larger the battle, so you're kinda right, but not really.

As noted above, orks strength has been notably higher in the past on occasions but it really is dependent on the plot as to how strong the author needs them to be. If you want to point fingers though, then the eldar have had since the necrons called it a night to tell the orcs to go for a long walk off a short pier, so I'm not so sure about your hypothesis there.




The tau defeated a small tendril, not a proper hive fleet and the ork waaaugh was a relatively small one and it took the combined effort of their entire military to throw it back and left them vulnerable and set back their expansion plans for generations IIRC. That's fine if you only have 1 enemy 'cause you are nestled inside the imperium, but when you need to fight a different monster of the week, every week, for 10,000 years, you can't spend the majority of your military to do it or you'll get ground down and over-run.



Further proof that the emperor did the right thing. He built a force that nobody could stand against and then used it to ensure that his realm (ie the people who lived in in it) were safe from predation. It's basically a pre-summer slash and burn around your house to build a fire break to keep the fires away.

The problem is that dads stuck on the dunny cause the oldest boy thought it would be funny to put some laxatives in his bikkies but no one remembered to make the firebreak, clean the leaves out of the gutters or even mow the lawn for the last 10,000 years.

What he should have done was educate his lads about listening to those dodgy kids down the street who told some of the more impressionable ones how fun it'd be pranking dear old dad. Probably also not take their toys away or hand out so many beatings either, but hey, that's a personal thing, not a empire building thing home maintenance thing.
.

See, that's still not nearly as bad as what's happening currently in the setting. A bunch fell to Xenos, and bunch fell to Chaos, and a bunch just got straight up murdered by their own creations, but the galaxy itself was never in danger.

Apparently the Eldar had a method to keep their population under contol, and did so Pre-Fall. A big reason humanity was able to have it's first Empire is because the Eldar effectively told the nastiest stuff in the galaxy to sit down and shut up. They didn't say why the Eldar never fully exterminated the Orks. I've got three theories on it:

1. Orks are easy for Eldar to manipulate, so they were kept around as cannon fodder if the Necrons woke back up.

2. They might have been able to keep Orks under control, but they couldn't exterminate them without getting into the whole empowering them cycle.

3. They could've but their current solution worked and they were so arrogant they didn't even consider the idea that they might not have the power to enact that solution at some point.


How much did it slow them down really? They seem to be right back to expanding. Frig, they lost an entire Expansion into the warp and they shrugged it off like it was nothing, and just started again.


I think the Emperor should have simply killed the Primarchs when he lost them. Maybe not Magnus because he was needed to sit on the Throne, but the things were stolen away by Chaos. And then he apparently put in no safeguards that maybe Chaos did that to corrupt them or something. But the Primarchs were a ridiculous amount of overkill, for the job that Space Marines were doing perfectly well.

The bit where it says, suddenly there were psychers everywhere and then, nek minit, suddenly daemons and warpstorms and psychers exploding into daemons probably does give that impression, yes. That's not the only thing that happened around that time though and it isn't really covered in detail beyond that these handful of bad things happened in this roughly 5'ish thousand year period (give or take a millennia or two).



I'm not sure how, but your 40k is wildly different to my 40k. I am curious to know how you don't blame the emperor for the nids if you blame him for everything else though?

I really want to know what the Emperor was doing during the first human empire. He was around, we know that much.

Hmm, well some of it might be, 'I don't consider that to be a problem'.

Chaos: Directly empowered by the Emperor creating the most powerful tools (AKA the Primarchs and Space Marines) that it has ever had, to the degree that it's been able to split the galaxy in half and endanger every species. Eldar may have created a Chaos God, but that ****** over only themselves, and actually cleared up a bunch of warp storms, letting the Emperor begin the Crusade in the first place.

Orks: You know, thinking about it, I can't really blame the Emperor for this one. Yeah, sure, apparently the Imperium empowered the Orks, but that would've happened anyways. It's not like a bunch of smaller human/xenos empires wouldn't have ended up fighting the Orks constantly.

Tyranids: They were headed from outside the galaxy towards the galaxy. I know 40K has thrown a bunch of crap like the Pharos device and the Astronomicon by saying those are guiding them in, but galaxy's are really big, and really far apart. They were likely already headed to the Milky Way, and while they may have been 'aimed' or even sped up by those two things, they would've arrive anyways. And since their goal is to eat the entire galaxy, it wouldn't have mattered where they arrived.

Cult Mechanicus: Was directly empowered by the Emperor because he needed their help and they were shaped by his meddling in the first place. Without the Imperium enforcing their beliefs of technological stagnation, the other human 'kingdoms' would've likely kept advancing and would've been much stronger as a result. Lots of technology was lost during the Great Crusade in fact. Like the invisible warriors on Not!Earth.

Necrons: Not really a threat. The genocidal Necrons are now the minority, so humanity can exist with Necrons being around.

Eldar: Not a threat.

Dark Eldar: Not a threat, more like a parasite.

Tau: Not a threat.

Am I missing anything?

Ponder this. Without the Emperor, the shadowy group of mostly not-humans (was it the Cabal?) would have made sure humanity fell to chaos, were wiped out and everyone else lived happily ever after. Apparently. Personally doubt that though.


The WH40K setting is a crapsackier crapsack universe so bad it is its own parody on the genre. Only with sharks jumping over it. Any change we imagine is bound to be a worse choice than what we see. And that's discounting the really nasty possibilities. And the ones worse than those.

Well no, because humanity was only a cohesive whole because of the Emperor. There was at least one human empire that was fully aware of the dangers of Chaos, and looked to be pretty stable, and strong. So humanity wouldn't have been able to fall to Chaos, not on the degree of the Horus Heresy anyways.

I feel that a big part of the crapiness is that it didn't have to be this way. It wasn't some inevitable fate, it was a series of stupid mistakes that could've been avoided if such and such had happened. That makes the tragedy all the more impactful.

[LansXero]

See, that's still not nearly as bad as what's happening currently in the setting. A bunch fell to Xenos, and bunch fell to Chaos, and a bunch just got straight up murdered by their own creations, but the galaxy itself was never in danger.

Thats less the Imperium, more Necron technology failing; it is heavily implied this was the galaxy's fate all along, were it not for the pylons. Once the Orks or whoever smashed enough of them , it wouldve happened anyways.

How much did it slow them down really? They seem to be right back to expanding. Frig, they lost an entire Expansion into the warp and they shrugged it off like it was nothing, and just started again.

The 4th sphere expansion got stopped dead in its tracks by a single segmentum battlefleet in a hurry; they couldn't commit fully because more important stuff awaited. For comparison, its the same size fleet that failed to stop the tyranids at Macragge, and requred the Dominus Astra imploding itself. So, the Tau cant stop something that cant stop a Hivefleet. Tyranids are 100-0: Either you beat them and kill the Norn Queens, or they just take your dead and reprocess them into more gaunts / carnifexes / etc. Tau are horrendous at atrition, as shown when just getting a dozen worlds lit on fire stopped their biggest expansion push to date.

That they stubbornly keep forcing it is both due to the necessities of the setting, and in-universe explained by the Ethereals not giving a crap about the other castes, as long as their plan keeps moving along.

I think the Emperor should have simply killed the Primarchs when he lost them. Maybe not Magnus because he was needed to sit on the Throne, but the things were stolen away by Chaos. And then he apparently put in no safeguards that maybe Chaos did that to corrupt them or something. But the Primarchs were a ridiculous amount of overkill, for the job that Space Marines were doing perfectly well.

Except for all those many times when Space Marines weren't doing perfectly well and a Primarch made all the difference? Also, they are Chaos-tainted things, as Corax himself realized. It doesn't mean there was nothing to redeem in them. But yeah, several should've had their leashes shortened at the very least.

Chaos: Directly empowered by the Emperor creating the most powerful tools (AKA the Primarchs and Space Marines) that it has ever had, to the degree that it's been able to split the galaxy in half and endanger every species. Eldar may have created a Chaos God, but that ****** over only themselves, and actually cleared up a bunch of warp storms, letting the Emperor begin the Crusade in the first place.

The Emperor teleports onto the Vengeful Spirit because he knows he CAN kill Horus. He also stabs Drachnyen into Ra because he knows he CANT kill the Echo of the First Murder, a demon born when humans learned to kill each other. Chaos already got its biggest power up when humanity and its overly intense emotions started to resonate in the warp, Primarchs make very little difference.

Cult Mechanicus: Was directly empowered by the Emperor because he needed their help and they were shaped by his meddling in the first place. Without the Imperium enforcing their beliefs of technological stagnation, the other human 'kingdoms' would've likely kept advancing and would've been much stronger as a result. Lots of technology was lost during the Great Crusade in fact. Like the invisible warriors on Not!Earth.

Falsehoods are still around, so not sure on whats 'lost' about invisibility tech. The other kingdoms could've become beacons of progress and enlightment, or IronMen Redux / Prospero pre-Magnus. Seeing as he has already lived through the entire process, why risk it a second time?

Am I missing anything?

Chaos Xenos. Demon worlds. Psychic parasite-plagued worlds. Basically, you are missing everything that went extinct due to the Great Crusade. Countless of potentional galactic threats were destroyed before they had a chance to become such.

Well no, because humanity was only a cohesive whole because of the Emperor. There was at least one human empire that was fully aware of the dangers of Chaos, and looked to be pretty stable, and strong. So humanity wouldn't have been able to fall to Chaos, not on the degree of the Horus Heresy anyways.

You do realize that Lorgar was screwed because his world had already fallen to Chaos when he landed, right? Just like the world where Fulgrim found his sword, or Davin, or so many others, Also, you are talking about a world so 'stable' it didnt last a week to the Luna Wolves, and thats considering the Interex got the upper hand on them. How would this 'oh so very stable human world' fare against a full Waagh! or a Tyranid Fleet?

[Cheesegear]

You do realize that Lorgar was screwed because his world had already fallen to Chaos when he landed, right?

In Lorgar, Kor Phaeron was already teaching Little!Lorgar about the Chaos Gods, and what Lorgar's powers could eventually be.

"What are those markings on your wrist, Daddy?"
"Listen, son. Let me tell you about my four friends..."

[Renegade Paladin]

In Lorgar, Kor Phaeron was already teaching Little!Lorgar about the Chaos Gods, and what Lorgar's powers could eventually be.

"What are those markings on your wrist, Daddy?"
"Listen, son. Let me tell you about my four friends..."

Then why the hell did the Emperor not kill him at once upon the discovery of Lorgar?

[Cheesegear]

Then why the hell did the Emperor not kill him at once upon the discovery of Lorgar?

When Big E shows up, if you're smart, you shut your mouth about Primordial Chaos.
Then, when your son - who is effectively a demigod, in your eyes - is at his lowest point that he's ever been, after having rejected his real father, you remind him of what you taught him when he was little.

[Wraith]

Then why the hell did the Emperor not kill him at once upon the discovery of Lorgar?

Specifically, because Lorgar grew up having psychic visions of the Emperor's arrival in his dreams - a beautiful golden God-being who would come and unite all humans - and Lorgar was preaching that as the New Faith. A huge religious civil war broke out between those who followed Lorgar and those of the Covenant (aka, the Old Faith), and Kor Phaeron - despite being an fervent believer in the Chaos Gods - followed his son because he saw it as an opportunity to ride on Lorgar's coat tails to a place of influence and authority.
So when the Emperor arrived on Colchis, the Old Faith of the Four Gods had been suppressed out of sight, and all he knew of was Lorgar's unflinching devotion to the Emperor. Kor Phaeron, as far as any could see, was the second most influential priest of what would become the Cult of the Emperor, and he hid his outlawed beliefs for the next 160 years.

Later, when Monarchia was toppled and Lorgar was bereft of hope, was Kor Phaeron's opportunity - now he had influence and authority - and he used it to guide Lorgar back to the Old Faith, of which Kor Phaeron was the pre-eminent expert.

[Platinius]

To explain why the Space Marines are so important in the grand scheme of things

It has been touched on before, but let's remember that the Imperium provides a strong stabilizing factor for the galaxy. The Deathwatch actually being THE prime example on how it works, as they go out of their way to annihilate anything that could seriously threaten humanity (and by extension the galaxy) now or at some point in he future. They will also exterminate things that might change an existing alien species into something more hostile/dangerous against the Imperium, but said Imerpium, at least locally, hasn't had the resources/means to deal with them permanently, or simply likes them in their subjugated state for the additional resources and workpower. Remember that most aliens are subjugated, not exterminated. Also, the Eldar, Orks, Tyranids and so forth are only the named enemies (those with models to sell ), the Imperium's other enemies simply have not persisted, many of which I am certain had been quite deadly foes to the Imperium, but they go unmentioned because we like our space elves, space orcs, terminator armies, alien from Alien invaders, catholic fascist lesbian space nuns with guns, Starship troopers (the movie), Starship troopers (the book), WW1 in Space and so on, more than some alien space flunkies that managed to get themselves exterminated.
Note that a novel or two about such aliens would be quite entertaining, but it ultimately is not the main selling point of BL or GW. (There was an example of such an alien species in Eisenhorn: Xenos, but they lacked the coolness factor to be a part of the larger lore)

A thing i would really wish for would be a novel with beastmen or about a beastmen regiment. Their self-flagellation and the general hate by the Imperium for them despite being tolerated as abhuman, being fierce and optically interesting (coolness factors for the viewers), would make them a great choice for a novel(series). More abhumans in general. The galaxy of 40k is very big, show some diversity^^

[lord_khaine]

To explain why the Space Marines are so important in the grand scheme of things

Sorry, but thats the Space Marine ending, its just about as biased as it possibly can.

It has been touched on before, but let's remember that the Imperium provides a strong stabilizing factor for the galaxy. The Deathwatch actually being THE prime example on how it works, as they go out of their way to annihilate anything that could seriously threaten humanity (and by extension the galaxy) now or at some point in he future. They will also exterminate things that might change an existing alien species into something more hostile/dangerous against the Imperium, but said Imerpium, at least locally, hasn't had the resources/means to deal with them permanently, or simply likes them in their subjugated state for the additional resources and workpower. Remember that most aliens are subjugated, not exterminated. Also, the Eldar, Orks, Tyranids and so forth are only the named enemies (those with models to sell ), the Imperium's other enemies simply have not persisted, many of which I am certain had been quite deadly foes to the Imperium, but they go unmentioned because we like our space elves, space orcs, terminator armies, alien from Alien invaders, catholic fascist lesbian space nuns with guns, Starship troopers (the movie), Starship troopers (the book), WW1 in Space and so on, more than some alien space flunkies that managed to get themselves exterminated.
Note that a novel or two about such aliens would be quite entertaining, but it ultimately is not the main selling point of BL or GW. (There was an example of such an alien species in Eisenhorn: Xenos, but they lacked the coolness factor to be a part of the larger lore)

And no, its not a stabilising factor, as such for the rest of the galaxy its worse than the Necrons, and about as bad as Tyrranids.
The Empire only subjugate humans and abhumans. Everything else gets nuked. Prime example of this being the Tau, who were slated for extermination at a stone age stage, and only survived due to luck?.

The Imperium only provides stability for humans, everyone else either gets the wrong end of a bolter and 99 lasguns, or are so heavily armed that shooting them would not be cost effective compared to shooting someone else.
For the rest of the galaxy the heresy were a GOOD thing, it put an end to the crusade, and disabled the Emperor.

[Blackhawk748]

I would like to disprove your point with the Jokearo. The Empire does actually subjugate xenos, they just have to recognize the awesomeness of the Emperor

[lord_khaine]

I would like to disprove your point with the Jokearo. The Empire does actually subjugate xenos, they just have to recognize the awesomeness of the Emperor

Im not certain the Jokaero is a good example of this though. They are impossible to communicate with, and more treated like an exotic pet than anything else. They certainly dont have any sort of civilisation or culture.
Actually i would say the Jokaero is closer to a scavenged tool of the Old Ones than a subjugated xenos race.

[Forum Explorer]

Thats less the Imperium, more Necron technology failing; it is heavily implied this was the galaxy's fate all along, were it not for the pylons. Once the Orks or whoever smashed enough of them , it wouldve happened anyways.



The 4th sphere expansion got stopped dead in its tracks by a single segmentum battlefleet in a hurry; they couldn't commit fully because more important stuff awaited. For comparison, its the same size fleet that failed to stop the tyranids at Macragge, and requred the Dominus Astra imploding itself. So, the Tau cant stop something that cant stop a Hivefleet. Tyranids are 100-0: Either you beat them and kill the Norn Queens, or they just take your dead and reprocess them into more gaunts / carnifexes / etc. Tau are horrendous at atrition, as shown when just getting a dozen worlds lit on fire stopped their biggest expansion push to date.

That they stubbornly keep forcing it is both due to the necessities of the setting, and in-universe explained by the Ethereals not giving a crap about the other castes, as long as their plan keeps moving along.



Except for all those many times when Space Marines weren't doing perfectly well and a Primarch made all the difference? Also, they are Chaos-tainted things, as Corax himself realized. It doesn't mean there was nothing to redeem in them. But yeah, several should've had their leashes shortened at the very least.




The Emperor teleports onto the Vengeful Spirit because he knows he CAN kill Horus. He also stabs Drachnyen into Ra because he knows he CANT kill the Echo of the First Murder, a demon born when humans learned to kill each other. Chaos already got its biggest power up when humanity and its overly intense emotions started to resonate in the warp, Primarchs make very little difference.



Falsehoods are still around, so not sure on whats 'lost' about invisibility tech. The other kingdoms could've become beacons of progress and enlightment, or IronMen Redux / Prospero pre-Magnus. Seeing as he has already lived through the entire process, why risk it a second time?



Chaos Xenos. Demon worlds. Psychic parasite-plagued worlds. Basically, you are missing everything that went extinct due to the Great Crusade. Countless of potentional galactic threats were destroyed before they had a chance to become such.



You do realize that Lorgar was screwed because his world had already fallen to Chaos when he landed, right? Just like the world where Fulgrim found his sword, or Davin, or so many others, Also, you are talking about a world so 'stable' it didnt last a week to the Luna Wolves, and thats considering the Interex got the upper hand on them. How would this 'oh so very stable human world' fare against a full Waagh! or a Tyranid Fleet?

I read it differently. The pylons breaking was bad yes, but Abbadon was also sort of 'prepping' the galaxy with a bunch of sacrifices and other dark rituals. Also those pylons are crazy durable. I don't think they'd break without someone specifically targeting them with something.


See, that's what I mean. 'They stopped the Expansion', but the Tau haven't stopped. I mean, they were stopped briefly, but apparently just started right up again. It hasn't been that long time wise. So unless they have a really short gestation period, this is effectively three full Expansions, all on the same generation of warriors. They can apparently take a lot more casualties then we suspected.


The Primarchs were certainly convenient and useful, but how many times were they necessary? I mean, this goes back to the Space Marine problem in the first place. They technically aren't necessary, you can have ordinary well trained humans do the same job, if you are using them correctly.


I disagree. Abbadon has literally split the galaxy in twain with his actions, Magnus has pulled planets into and out of the warp, and so on and so forth. The CSM have had a massive impact on the setting, and the various Daemons have pretty much needed such powerful mortals to open the way for them to cause havoc.


Really? So how many units in the Imperium go into combat invisible? You try again because that's how progress is actually made, okay, that's bringing in real world values, but things failing once is a really bad reason to completely avoid progress altogether.


Care to bring up anything that's actually on the level of the Tyranids, or current day Chaos? Because I can't remember anything that was significantly more powerful then the Tau.


That's kinda my point on why the Primarchs should've been all killed. Also apparently not telling them anything about Chaos actually makes them really vulnerable to Chaos, like Fulgrim handling Chaos artifacts like it was common loot, and getting possessed as a result. In comparison the Interex correctly identified a Chaos artifact and that the Crusade was infected by Chaos. They resisted it in the wrong way, but they were correct in their assessment.

Also we don't know how long the campaign lasted, but we do know that the Imperium backed off initially to regroup and then move forward. The fight on Davin actually occurred before the Interex were defeated. I think you're thinking of the Not!Earth planet, which was a civilization consisting of a single planet.

[Blackhawk748]

See, that's what I mean. 'They stopped the Expansion', but the Tau haven't stopped. I mean, they were stopped briefly, but apparently just started right up again. It hasn't been that long time wise. So unless they have a really short gestation period, this is effectively three full Expansions, all on the same generation of warriors. They can apparently take a lot more casualties then we suspected.

But that makes no sense, and im convinced its someone at GW screwing up the times. The Tau exist in such a tiny amount of space and control so few worlds (comparative to everyone else) that theres no way they could bounce back that fast. Especially after their last debacle.

Even if they could bounce back that fast, a Behemoth style fleet would bury them in corpses so fast it wouldnt even be funny. Plus Tyranids would force the Tau into a static defensive posture and they really suck at that.

In short, their plot armor saved them again, because they should be dead.

Care to bring up anything that's actually on the level of the Tyranids, or current day Chaos? Because I can't remember anything that was significantly more powerful then the Tau.

The Orks of Ullanor come to mind. Also the Heresy series starts at the end of the Crusade so we dont even get to hear about the giant scary stuff they fought, cuz its already dead and noone cares anymore.

That's kinda my point on why the Primarchs should've been all killed. Also apparently not telling them anything about Chaos actually makes them really vulnerable to Chaos, like Fulgrim handling Chaos artifacts like it was common loot, and getting possessed as a result. In comparison the Interex correctly identified a Chaos artifact and that the Crusade was infected by Chaos. They resisted it in the wrong way, but they were correct in their assessment.

And the Interex could have actually talked about Khaos (as they called it) instead of acting like the Eldar at not telling anyone anything.