Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[Cheesegear]

After the glowing reviews Cheese has given, I'll pick it up.

Uh oh. Umm...The second book isn't great. But the third picks up... Sort of.
The reason I gave it 'glowing reviews', is, really, solely for the main character. Yes, she's female (*nerdrage screaming*), but she's smart and good at her job. Which is being an Arbite. Not everyone is going to find Arbites interesting. I do. Because I like old mystery/noir movies and novels, and my favourite character in Eisenhorn was Fischig. Not, y'know...The titular character.

I like Enforcer because it is the kind of book I like to read, just with a 40K-wash over it. Kind of like Honor Harrington being Hornblower-in-space. I love Hornblower. I love space. Let's do this.
I like detective novels. I like 40K. Therefore, Enforcer is good (except Book 2).
I don't know if that's your bag.

But somehow I know you'll blame me if you hate it.

[Wraith]

Despite Cheese's slight reservations, I'll go on record as saying that the Shira Calpurnia books are good choices to pick up.

They're not great because, compared to some of the more flashy boltor-porn novels, they're a lot more reserved. Shira follows procedure instead of jumping to wild conclusions, and while she breaks a few heads she always does it for the right reasons and because it's just another day on the job for her, not because she revels in the glory of battle or the rest of that nonsense. I like that because it takes it's time to explain what is happening and for relatively recognisable reasons, rather than "aliens are attacking, kill everything rarr", though I appreciate that it's not something for everyone's taste.

Instead, it's good because Shira is a very well thought-out character. She's on a world that's on the far end of Ultramar from where she used to live, so any discussion made of the Imperial culture or surroundings are in character observations made by an outsider, not just random purple prose. It's also good because those observations are of the 'civilian' end of the Imperial worlds, not the hyper-distorted position of the Astartes or the aloof, action-packed spectacle of the Inquisition.

I hope they do an audio-version. If GW want to improve their diversity, they could do far, far worse than have someone like Lisa Coleman (the lady who narrates the Necromunda trailers, and before that was Kara Swole in the Eisenhorn/Ravenor audio dramas) record a novel for them.

[Cheesegear]

Despite Cheese's slight reservations, I'll go on record as saying that the Shira Calpurnia books are good choices to pick up.

I'm not saying that they're not good. Quite the opposite. What I am saying, is that they fall around the 7-8/10 mark, and I just feel like 'glowing review' might be over-rating what I've actually said in the past about it.

though I appreciate that it's not something for everyone's taste.

Which is more what I was actually saying.

Instead, it's good because Shira is a very well thought-out character.

Stop saying what I said.

[Wraith]

I'm not repeating, I'm reinforcing.

[Drasius]

Uh oh. Umm...The second book isn't great. But the third picks up... Sort of.
The reason I gave it 'glowing reviews', is, really, solely for the main character. Yes, she's female (*nerdrage screaming*), but she's smart and good at her job. Which is being an Arbite. Not everyone is going to find Arbites interesting. I do. Because I like old mystery/noir movies and novels, and my favourite character in Eisenhorn was Fischig. Not, y'know...The titular character.

I like Enforcer because it is the kind of book I like to read, just with a 40K-wash over it. Kind of like Honor Harrington being Hornblower-in-space. I love Hornblower. I love space. Let's do this.
I like detective novels. I like 40K. Therefore, Enforcer is good (except Book 2).
I don't know if that's your bag.

But somehow I know you'll blame me if you hate it.

I suspect I might like it, but keep in mind that a) Yes, I am going to blame you if I hate it and b) You also recommended HH and while I think that the setting is cool and the ideas are there, the characters, especially "Honor" (damn 'Muricans), meant I gave up after the first few books.

Funny that you mentioned Eisenhorn as I'm ~1/4 of the way into Xenos and have been quite liking it so far, though the kneejerk reaction of it being just like every other inquisitor story has to be suppressed since I'm reading the codifier well after it set the baseline for what to expect from an inquisiton novel/story.

Despite Cheese's slight reservations, I'll go on record as saying that the Shira Calpurnia books are good choices to pick up.

They're not great because, compared to some of the more flashy boltor-porn novels, they're a lot more reserved. Shira follows procedure instead of jumping to wild conclusions, and while she breaks a few heads she always does it for the right reasons and because it's just another day on the job for her, not because she revels in the glory of battle or the rest of that nonsense. I like that because it takes it's time to explain what is happening and for relatively recognisable reasons, rather than "aliens are attacking, kill everything rarr", though I appreciate that it's not something for everyone's taste.

Instead, it's good because Shira is a very well thought-out character. She's on a world that's on the far end of Ultramar from where she used to live, so any discussion made of the Imperial culture or surroundings are in character observations made by an outsider, not just random purple prose. It's also good because those observations are of the 'civilian' end of the Imperial worlds, not the hyper-distorted position of the Astartes or the aloof, action-packed spectacle of the Inquisition.

I hope they do an audio-version. If GW want to improve their diversity, they could do far, far worse than have someone like Lisa Coleman (the lady who narrates the Necromunda trailers, and before that was Kara Swole in the Eisenhorn/Ravenor audio dramas) record a novel for them.

Sounds like I'll enjoy it. I like the thorough world building and fridge brilliance type of storytelling.

I'll let you know if you're both wise, insightful gentlemen or horrible, backwards cretins sometime in July/August I guess :)

[Adrastos42]

Looking on GW's site as I'm almost out of reading backlog and I see this:

That appears to be identical to the copy I have on my to-read shelf, so I expect you can find a used copy if you don't want to wait.

[Destro_Yersul]

That sounds like something I should pick up. I like both detective novels and 40k, and I'm always looking for stuff that shows the calmer, civilian side of things. And not the Dark Grimness of the Grim Darkness ONLY WAAAAR stuff.

[Forum Explorer]

That sounds like something I should pick up. I like both detective novels and 40k, and I'm always looking for stuff that shows the calmer, civilian side of things. And not the Dark Grimness of the Grim Darkness ONLY WAAAAR stuff.

Speaking of, I finished the Beast Arises.

And eh. It was alright. I'll give it a C+. Though I'll say that Guy Haley needs to get over his Eldar fetish. I mean, I like Eldar, they are my favorite faction, but having a squad of Harlequins kill who knows how many guardsmen and even dozens of Custodes was just ridiculous. And to effectively do nothing. They have no impact on the plot at all. Then he has this Eldrad excerpt in the final book, and I'm just like, why? The Eldar didn't do anything in this series, because it wasn't about them.

Anyways, overall my problems were that Vulkan shows up, and does literally nothing before 'dying'. They invade Ullanor 3 times and pretty much do the same thing each time. And that none of the Space Marine characters were interesting. And sadly as the series went on it became more and more about the Space Marines.

[deuterio12]

Speaking of, I finished the Beast Arises.

And eh. It was alright. I'll give it a C+. Though I'll say that Guy Haley needs to get over his Eldar fetish. I mean, I like Eldar, they are my favorite faction, but having a squad of Harlequins kill who knows how many guardsmen and even dozens of Custodes was just ridiculous. And to effectively do nothing.

To be fair, one of the common basis of the 40k empire is "So you just killed a zillion of our troops? Including a bunch of our supposedly super rare elites that we invested multiple worlds worth of resources to create? Like we care, we have plenty more from where those came from!"

Anyways, overall my problems were that Vulkan shows up, and does literally nothing before 'dying'.

Emprah:"Vulkan, Horus is being an heretic and blaspheming against my totally-not-a-religion. Go deal with that."
Vulkan:"Ups, I died."

Vulkan dying while doing literally nothing is pretty much the story of his life(s) too.

[Wraith]

In other stories, Vulkan's "death" at least serves a purpose.

In Vulkan Lives it demonstrates the sheer power of his regeneration ability while also showcasing the depths of madness to which Conrad Kurze had sunk.
In Unremembered Empire it's a stark memento mori that reawakens Guilliman, Johnson and Sanguinius' understanding of what it means to stand together and to take the fight back to Terra.
In Rebirth, it's the reason as to why the Salamanders - depleted as they are - are absent from the Siege of Terra.

In The Beast Must Die he... turns up as a deus ex machine, interferes with the Imperial Fists and then makes a heroic sacrifice to kill a 'Beast' class Ork Warboss - even though the other 9 of them die off-screen in about a page without anything like so much drama.

Dying for the cause is what he does, of course, but this was just a way to write him out because "he needs writing out" and not because the battle was anything particularly relevant to him.
The True-Death of Vulkan should at least have been a Salamanders story, not one slotted into the middle of an Imperial Fists series "because reasons".

[Brookshw]

Vulkan:"Ups, I died."

This really made me laugh, thank you!

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of, I finished the Beast Arises.
[...] sadly as the series went on it became more and more about the Space Marines.

I was really enjoying The Beast Arises, until I finished it, and looked back on it, in its entirety, and how everything before Book 10 (with few minor plot details) was ultimately pointless.
The entire series is leading to a confrontation between Koorland and The Beast, happening in The Last Son of Dorn.

Not only does Koorland fail (which is an extremely important plot point on its own, as it means the Imperium is ****ed), but, then, it's revealed that The Beast isn't simply an Ork, but a class of Orks...So the Imperium is well and truly screwed (so everything Koorland died for, was also completely pointless). I wonder how the Imperium will pay tribute to Koorland's pointless sacrifice...

Just kidding, they solve the entire problem in one book (Shadow of Ullanor), and Book #12 (The Beheading) may as well be a brand new story...Which Eldrad wraps up for no ****ing reason.

I have actually told someone; Don't read the series. Read books 10-12, then read the internet for the rest.

[Wraith]

I've finally gotten around to reading Red Tithe in full. I've referred to it a few times, but only after skimming it and stop-starting along the way; this week I sat down and hammered it out in two sessions over two days.

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I'm... Actually quite a disappointed. While the prose is fine and the characters are good enough, for a story about the Imperium's elite Astartes-killing Astartes going up against a warband of Night Lords, it somehow manages to be a bit.... dull.

Again, there's nothing bad per say, but it's very generic. Night Lords land on a prison planet and set the convicts fighting amongst themselves, the Carcharodons arrive and find Night Lords waiting for them, so they fight through the tunnels and sewers until they get to a big fight in a tower at the end where Night Lords betray their First Claw for being full of arrogant ***holes, and the Loyalist Librarian kills every everyone else in about a page or so. The end.

You can almost see how the book was storyboarded to be a movie - it uses a small handful of main characters who quip amongst themselves and generally get things done after a minor setback, and everyone else dies to a single shot to the gut without ceremony. As much as we sometimes make fun of 40k for being grimdark, I was honestly hoping for some actual dark, gritty scenes of monster-versus-monster violence; instead the baddies are cartoonishly evil, and the goodies Space Sharks are mostly faceless and blasé about everything.

Since then I've started on The Eye of Ezekiel, which is turning out to be MUCH better.

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Space Marines' Psychic powers are portrayed as VERY powerful in ways that other novels are almost fearful to portray, the Ork antagonists actually use tactics and often don't die to a single bolt-round going off vaguely near them, and for a story whose main protagonist is a psyker there's also an excellent subplot where a Techmarine is being hassled by an Ad.Mech Magos to remember his loyalty to Mars over the Dark Angels. Instead of angsting about it he takes out his frustrations by jumping off a 100ft wall into a crowd of Orks and obliterating them John Wu-style. It's much more exciting to read than Red Tithe, and I'm really enjoying the relationships that have to be very carefully explored between Dark Angels, other Dark Angels of lesser rank, Astartes, Ad.Mech, Imperial Guard and all those who find themselves trapped between two or more of them.

[EDIT] OKAY WAIT I take it back, there's something really scary going on in this book and I don't yet know if it's intentional to screw with people like me, or accidental because GW.

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Ezekiel is casting Gate of Infinity on himself and his squad to escape a mob of Orks, and it ends like this:

"Shouting the last invocation, Ezekiel made the sign of a star with his fingers, each of the eights points glowing with raw psychic energy."

[JNAProductions]

Starting Dark Eldar. Want to focus primarily on Wych Cult. Thinking of good names for them... I want them to be proud, even for Dark Eldar.

I've gotten some suggestions, like Invictus, or the Unyielding. Any ideas? And any random thoughts on how to construct good army fluff?

[Forum Explorer]

I was really enjoying The Beast Arises, until I finished it, and looked back on it, in its entirety, and how everything before Book 10 (with few minor plot details) was ultimately pointless.
The entire series is leading to a confrontation between Koorland and The Beast, happening in The Last Son of Dorn.

Not only does Koorland fail (which is an extremely important plot point on its own, as it means the Imperium is ****ed), but, then, it's revealed that The Beast isn't simply an Ork, but a class of Orks...So the Imperium is well and truly screwed (so everything Koorland died for, was also completely pointless). I wonder how the Imperium will pay tribute to Koorland's pointless sacrifice...

Just kidding, they solve the entire problem in one book (Shadow of Ullanor), and Book #12 (The Beheading) may as well be a brand new story...Which Eldrad wraps up for no ****ing reason.

I have actually told someone; Don't read the series. Read books 10-12, then read the internet for the rest.

That's pretty much my problems with it. There's all this cool stuff of ordinary humans fighting and dealing with the politics of the higher ups. Even the politicing itself was really interesting. Then Space Marines shut all of that down entirely. Koorland vs the Beast was pretty boring but at least it was a little interesting. And he failed, and I was seriously looking forward to the Imperium desperately reacting to find a new solution to beat the Beast (which I actually thought would be teleporting Ullanor out of position which would devastate it's defenses and prevent reinforcements from showing up.)

Instead Thane invades Ullanor for the third time, using more or less the exact same methods, that Koorland and Vulkan use, but this time it works. Seriously, Koorland tried that psyker trick that Thane did, except it worked the second time.

[Cheesegear]

Fallen Angels have 30K armaments, right?

[Wraith]

I expect that most of them certainly start out that way - there's one mentioned briefly in Eye of Ezekiel who is wearing a magnificent set of black Mk3. Power Armour that takes the breath away from a Dark Angels Techmarine who sees only a picture of it - though one would probably imagine that they eventually have to resort to cannibalising the equipment of their victims a là the Night Lords trilogy after a while.

How much of their original gear is left would depend highly on when they were spat out of the warp vortex which took them from Caliban. Those newly arriving in the 41st millennium would have only the damage sustained at the Siege of Caliban (if any), whereas the poor sucker who woke up in M34 probably has an unrecognisable amalgamation of stuff bolted into place by now, if not an entire suit stolen from a modern Astartes and crudely repainted somehow.

[Drasius]

For any fans of Text-to-Speech in the 41st millenium:

[lord_khaine]

Oh my god.. thats almost enough to make me return to 40k with a new army

[Cheesegear]

How much of their original gear is left would depend highly on when they were spat out of the warp vortex which took them from Caliban.

I have x50 Mk3 Tactical Marines on sprue, and I just have no ****ing idea what to do with them.
Tactical Marines in all <Adeptus Astartes> Codecies in 8th Ed. are just total garbage.
"Primaris Marines wont replace Power Armour Marines, honest!" ...Well, they did shaft the humble Tactical Marine.

Just wondering what's in the Chaos Codex I can use. While I have no interest running Fallen in an Imperial army (especially with Deathwatch out, soon). I think they're pretty good in a <Chaos> army.

Just trying to figure out what Fallen Angels are supposed to look like.

[deuterio12]

Just trying to figure out what Fallen Angels are supposed to look like.

Pretty much what you want them to look like.

They're not known as FALLEN for their love of following the emprah's latest rules and fads nor for being a big organized group. Some may still have their shiny heresy armor, but most would've been forced to improvise something else by now. You could make every model look different and that would probably be the fluffiest choice.

[Wraith]

I struggle to imagine that many of us haven't heard of this already, but none the less I'm still intrigued: Black Library are set to release a series of 40k/AoS novels aimed at 8-12 year olds.

It's honestly among the very last of things that I expected to see in the 40k/AoS license; a softening of the violence, gore, grimdarky dystopianism in favour of Saturday-morning style cartoon adventures.

But you know what? It's a great idea.

The days of relying on kids dropping all of their monthly pocket money on a box of 6 Space Marines is long gone, and people who started in that age are now adults who pretty much have bought everything that they want to buy, most often, and/or are crudely jaded against buying 'new' things otherwise.
GW sorely needs an injection of interest from a new generation, and frankly if they can update their image to include a more diverse and inclusive population in their universe (three of the six new protagonists are black/dark skinned, two female, and the apprentice Tech priest is supposedly confirmed to be asexual) then so much the better because God knows they've needed that for a few decades, too.

Obviously Tumblr and Twitter are alight with SJW-esque rantings about "agendas" and all the usual crap-hole talk that comes out of such crap-holes, but to Hell with them; A book called "Attack of the Necron" about a sassy Rogue Trader's daughter and her cybernetic Tech-Priest-Apprentice buddy sounds like exactly the sort of thing that I wanted to read at that age.

[Grim Portent]

I dunno, at that age I was reading the Edge Chronicles books, which were about dark enough to rival 40k at times and they were by far my favorite books. Children can handle dark and violent stories perfectly well and do so in a lot of the games they play. I'm not sure you need to make bright and cheery kids stories in the 40k setting when a bunch of grim stories would work fine for a lot of kids.

[Wraith]

I broadly agree with you Grim Portent; I too was reading other stuff at that age that still puts GW to shame. Kids are more resilient than we probably expect and to actively deny them the GW IP in favour of 'cute' versions would be detrimental.

Having said that; "it doesn't bother me so therefore it's not a problem" does not address the issue that it DOES bother some people, and that if nothing else we can probably agree that the BL doesn't do a great job of cataloguing it's books by content.

I can completely understand how someone who enjoys the boltor-porn in the Space Marine Battles books might be far more disturbed by the active sadism and human-targeted violence in the Night Lords Trilogy, for example, and at present there's no way to know that until the damage has already been done. Similarly, the Ciaphas Cain novels feature significantly more sexual content (however briefly) than other series despite being comparatively low on violence - again, some people would prefer their kids not be exposed to that even though they're okay with Ravenor popping heads open.
And then there are some who would prefer neither, or simply do not have a reading comprehension capable of following such books even though they want to?

My bottom line is that having more choice is never a bad thing, surely? It's not as though Warhammer Adventures are replacing the adult themes in other series.

[Borgh]

I broadly agree with you Grim Portent; I too was reading other stuff at that age that still puts GW to shame. Kids are more resilient than we probably expect and to actively deny them the GW IP in favour of 'cute' versions would be detrimental.

Eh, these books are not for kids to buy with their own pocket money, they are for parents to buy for little Timmy.

Timmy will finish them, look around and then use his pocket money (or library card) to get something "cool". At that age I read some books that were definitely too heavy for me but I usually picked them myself so I could never blame anyone and that makes it a lot easier to just skip chapters or put the book back if you don't like it anymore. That said, I usually read on, wide-eyed and figuring out if the library might have the sequel.

[deuterio12]

Gundam started as a kid toy commercial decades ago, but most of the series are pretty grimdark, with even some of the protagonists ending up dead or turned into a vegetable.

Still gotta love how now necrons shall now reach a whole new level of incompetence where they're foiled by a trio of humie larvae.

[hamishspence]

I struggle to imagine that many of us haven't heard of this already, but none the less I'm still intrigued: Black Library are set to release a series of 40k/AoS novels aimed at 8-12 year olds.

It's honestly among the very last of things that I expected to see in the 40k/AoS license; a softening of the violence, gore, grimdarky dystopianism in favour of Saturday-morning style cartoon adventures.

But you know what? It's a great idea.

The days of relying on kids dropping all of their monthly pocket money on a box of 6 Space Marines is long gone, and people who started in that age are now adults who pretty much have bought everything that they want to buy, most often, and/or are crudely jaded against buying 'new' things otherwise.
GW sorely needs an injection of interest from a new generation, and frankly if they can update their image to include a more diverse and inclusive population in their universe (three of the six new protagonists are black/dark skinned, two female, and the apprentice Tech priest is supposedly confirmed to be asexual) then so much the better because God knows they've needed that for a few decades, too.

Obviously Tumblr and Twitter are alight with SJW-esque rantings about "agendas" and all the usual crap-hole talk that comes out of such crap-holes, but to Hell with them; A book called "Attack of the Necron" about a sassy Rogue Trader's daughter and her cybernetic Tech-Priest-Apprentice buddy sounds like exactly the sort of thing that I wanted to read at that age.

Cavan Scott's Star Wars books in the same age bracket, have so far been fairly good as far as I can tell.

[Cheesegear]

I broadly agree with you Grim Portent; I too was reading other stuff at that age that still puts GW to shame. Kids are more resilient than we probably expect and to actively deny them the GW IP in favour of 'cute' versions would be detrimental.

No. I've mentioned this before in a different thread.

What we're on, is a text-based forum. If you're a frequent visitor to the Playground, chances are you can read. If you've ever typed a multi-paragraph post with little - or no - spelling or grammatical errors, you've already pretty much won the education lottery. However, ~50% of the population (in Australia, US and UK) read below a 10th Grade (Level 3) level, as adults. It's also important to remember that there are more people in Western countries that read at or below Level 1, than there are people who read at or higher than Level 5.

There isn't just a 'GrimDark' level to overcome. There's also a language barrier - even for people who speak English. When was the last time anyone used the word 'flensing' in conversation?

Having said that; "it doesn't bother me so therefore it's not a problem" does not address the issue that it DOES bother some people

It's a case of 'lowering the bar'. If you see a problem, and you say nothing. You are implicitly saying that there is no problem.
"Why do people watch and review movies that they don't like?" because certain standards and practices are not okay, and over time, they become the norm.

I don't even use mictrotransactions. Why would that affect me?
*A few. Years. Later.*
Oh God, why are all my games ruined?

My bottom line is that having more choice is never a bad thing, surely?

Depends if they're good choices.

However, what I'm seeing from this, is that 40K has the potential to be fun again. Remember when Orks could make guns work just by thinking real hard? ...I don't expect 40K to go that ridiculously stupid ever again. But I'm least hoping that there is some fun. Rather than all GrimDark, all the time... But, then again, everything comes down to quality.

[Drasius]

I don't expect 40K to go that ridiculously stupid ever again.

I'm gonna keep this here for when they release the Spess Woof 'dex, just to remind you just how silly you sound.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I personally think this is a solid idea, but I'm having a little trouble convincing a friend of it. Bogleech said it best, there's nasty things like slavery and other such "non-kid-friendly" stuff in the background of STAR WARS, and it's probably one of the biggest franchises marketed to kids out there!

But he also said some of the best 40K stuff has been goofball Orks having zany adventures, to which my friend retorted that said zany adventures involve genocide, slavery, flippant cruelty and taking joy in the suffering of others. I wouldn't say he's wrong, Orks are scary when they're played straight, but the thing is that that's incredibly rare for 40k to do. Isn't most of the flippant cruelty and joy in suffering largely inflicted on other Orks, who can take that kind of pounding and just laugh it off, and on Chaos gits who deserve it for the purposes of black comedy?