Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

[Cheesegear]

I'm surprised none of this is posted on Warhammer Community. Source?

Designer's Commentary, exactly where no-one ever looks.

[Drasius]

I'm surprised none of this is posted on Warhammer Community. Source?

I linked you the actual FAQ documents from GW's own site, I'm not sure how much more of a source that you want? If you're asking where I saw them, it was from GW's farcebook post.

Honestly, he (and Raven Guard and Salamanders) are all thats keeping Marines afloat. You nerf him (and im not sure how you would without making him an utter crapsack, remember, he is over 300 points) and Marines drop yet again in the rankings. Its... not a good time to be a marine.

He's already a million miles too good (and rumour says he's only going up by 25 points anyway) - buffs your entire army, can output lord of skulls level damage output, can't be targeted if not closest and comes back to life in addition to having a 2+/3++. It'd be easy to tone down at least one of those options or boost his point to match said abilities. At the same time, it wouldn't be too hard to hand out some appropriate buffs to lacklustre SM units, either via abilities, a points drop, stat changes or stratagems.

[lord_khaine]

He's already a million miles too good (and rumour says he's only going up by 25 points anyway) - buffs your entire army, can output lord of skulls level damage output, can't be targeted if not closest and comes back to life in addition to having a 2+/3++. It'd be easy to tone down at least one of those options or boost his point to match said abilities. At the same time, it wouldn't be too hard to hand out some appropriate buffs to lacklustre SM units, either via abilities, a points drop, stat changes or stratagems.

Would seem like the simplest thing is just to either get rid of the reroll wound thing, or limit it to rolls of 1. And then at the same time just shave some points off every single Space Marine unit.

I am also thinking now though, that adding a few commander specific strategems would be a way to make it a little more viable to pick someone else than Grandpa Smurf.

[Cheesegear]

At the same time, it wouldn't be too hard to hand out some appropriate buffs to lacklustre SM units, either via abilities, a points drop, stat changes or stratagems.

That is what actually needs to happen. Space Marines are ****, to the point where without Guilliman, they're basically terrible.
I agree that Guilliman is undercosted. However, I think that Guilliman is costed exactly right 'within his Codex', because the SM Codex is a wasteland.

[Drasius]

Would seem like the simplest thing is just to either get rid of the reroll wound thing, or limit it to rolls of 1. And then at the same time just shave some points off every single Space Marine unit.

I am also thinking now though, that adding a few commander specific strategems would be a way to make it a little more viable to pick someone else than Grandpa Smurf.

A blanket points drop across the codex isn't the answer, especially when there are already rather clear favourites (Assbacks, 'Ravens etc). While points adjustment is the usual answer (and the easiest), falling back on it every time leads to power creep more easily than just fixing units. The more you drop points, the less granularity there is available for other, lesser models (such as hordes), leading to situations where they're either too strong or too weak with no middle ground.

As for the commander stratagems, well, it wouldn't matter since they're not alternative choices due to being in a different slot (LoW vs HQ), unless you meant chapter specific, in which case you'll then have to make them so ridiculously good to compete that they then become no-brainer choices and you end up just changing what colour of marines are in your soup.

[Drasius]

That is what actually needs to happen. Space Marines are ****, to the point where without Guilliman, they're basically terrible.
I agree that Guilliman is undercosted. However, I think that Guilliman is costed exactly right 'within his Codex', because the SM Codex is a wasteland.

"Take this or you are bad and should feel bad" is terrible design, regardless of if it's intentional or not and with the amount of effort and hype gone into the balance for 8th, I doubt it was intentional to have marines suck a big fat one (unless their cunning plan was to have regular marines suck and primaris be awesome, but if that was the case, that's backfired horribly).

The problem is that girlyman isn't internally balanced, he's a crutch, the only thing propping up the marine dex and one of the main enablers of imperial soups. With even less restrictions on cherry picking the best toys from all imperial 'dexes, internal balance probably matters less than it ever has ('cept for faction purists, but they're a dying breed) for any soup capable army. It's like saying that the Heldrake was fine in 6th/7th 'cause it was the only thing keeping CSM in visible range of other 'dexes. That didn't mean it wasn't still far too strong, nor that it prevented it from getting (deservedly) nerfed by limiting its abilities rather than adjusting points (though it was still plenty good).

The generally prevailing view that I see repeated more often than not is that T4 3+ bodies are overpriced, especially ones with bolters. This appears to be the case for both vanilla and spiky marines. That this is the baseline for so many SM units means that they are going to suffer in their infantry choices in an infantry heavy game.

[Cheesegear]

"Take this or you are bad and should feel bad" is terrible design
[...]
The problem is that girlyman isn't internally balanced, he's a crutch, the only thing propping up the marine dex
[...]
The generally prevailing view that I see repeated more often than not is that T4 3+ bodies are overpriced

It is terrible design. I agree with you.

Guilliman isn't internally balanced, I agree with you. But he's required to win. And if he wasn't 360 Points, say, if he was 385, or even the 400 that he's actually worth, Marines would suffer even more for it. The fact that Guilliman is undercosted, even by 20-40 Points, is part of what makes him good, and if Guilliman wasn't good, there'd be no reason to play Space Marines. While I see the value in Infiltrating Aggressors, I've played a number of losing games, where they wouldn't have solved the problem. Extra and 'respawning' Command Points, is by far the best thing that Guilliman brings to the table. If you can get Guilliman into Melee, he shines there, too, and occasionally he'll deny your opponent a Warlord point.

Re-roll To Hit and To Wound isn't why you take Guilliman. I mean, it's good. But, Marneus Calgar is basically as good as Guilliman for 200 Points. A Lieutenant is 60, minimum. For 260 Points, you get Guilliman's auras - mostly. If you're purely talking about Auras, then Guilliman doesn't matter. You can get the same things cheaper in the Codex. Hell, because Guilliman is a <Monster>, he can't be healed by an Apothecary, he can't ride in a Stormraven, and he can't be a target for Honour the Chapter. I have seen people say that they believe that Calgar is better than Guilliman because of the things that Guilliman can't do. Calgar trades getting back up 50% of the time (never use all your Command Points if Guilliman hasn't died yet), for taking half damage, all the time (i.e; Shield Eternal).

Furthermore, the 100 Point difference between Calgar & Lieutenant (which is what you need anyway to make a Battalion, and other Marine HQs suck) and Guilliman, is made up for by a Veteran Squad (80 Points) taking Wounds for their Characters. Because Calgar and his Lieutenant are hugging each other, they may as well count as the same model, as far as distances go, and between the two of them, they have an extra 5 Wounds...And all of that can get in a Stormraven, and be in your opponent's DZ on Turn 2.
(Why there aren't Primaris Marine Command Squads, I have no idea)

The difference is that Guilliman starts on the board (not in a Stormraven), which means he lends himself to things that have firepower that don't move a whole lot; Snipers, Hellblasters, Devastators, Razorbacks. Oh, look, those are already the best things in the Codex, and Guilliman makes them better. Whereas you could use Calgar like Guilliman, he's simply just not as good at it as Guilliman is, and if you actually want to use Calgar mostly as intended, it kind of revolves around changing your entire playstyle - or, at least building up a very specific Death Star, while Guilliman enables what you're already doing.

So, while Calgar, individually, may be 'better' than Guilliman in certain cases, your army, as a whole, is worse off.

But, like how Ahriman isn't bad; The problem with Ahriman isn't that he's bad. It's that he's not Magnus. Magnus, being one of the most broken models in the game.

But, we know that Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are all broken. All of them.
Which, ultimately means that adding Primarchs to the game, has been a bad move, and will continue to be a bad move.

But, people want Primarchs. They just do. As broken as Primarchs have made the game, there are two or three that I can't wait for.
Because GW is a model company; They're giving players the models they want - Primarchs. And, in order to push those sales not just onto 'just consumers', but to the players ('Rules sell models'), make 'em broken.

T4 / 3+ models aren't overpriced in a game where the win conditions of the game is tied to removing your opponent's models.
Unfortunately, the aim of the game isn't to remove your opponent's models.

[deuterio12]

But, we know that Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are all broken. All of them.
Which, ultimately means that adding Primarchs to the game, has been a bad move, and will continue to be a bad move.

But, people want Primarchs. They just do. As broken as Primarchs have made the game, there are two or three that I can't wait for.
Because GW is a model company; They're giving players the models they want - Primarchs. And, in order to push those sales not just onto 'just consumers', but to the players ('Rules sell models'), make 'em broken.

They've made a pretty lousy work for the primaris and their new vehicles in that case. They're supposed to be the new shiniest imperial dudes, but it's not really viable to take more than a few squads of those among your army, let alone a 100% primaris list.

Daemon Angron got rules in the past and he basically sucked. But then he also sucked in 30k so I guess GW just hates him (exhibit A: only primarch getting his ass completely kicked (and by normal humies) before the emprah finding him).

So I guess it's just some characters getting their usual love. Guilliman's da man, he wrote the codex, fought against two traitor primarchs at the same time and walked away on his own feet, leader of the ultrasmurfs that are da bestest chapter evah to the point they retcon reality itself in a regular basis. Don't even need (chaos) daemon weapons to win, he's got the emprah's own daemon sword to pwn everybody!

Also can't wait for the retcons used to bring back those primarchs that are 120% dead. "Ferrus Magnus had actually built a cybernetic head that was deep striked into his body after getting decapitated!" "The emprah thought he had vaporized Horus, but actually the arch-betrayer escaped by foul sorcery and bidded his time behind the scenes for 10 000 years before showing himself again! What do you mean he left a body? Clones!"

[Blackhawk748]

Also can't wait for the retcons used to bring back those primarchs that are 120% dead. "Ferrus Magnus had actually built a cybernetic head that was deep striked into his body after getting decapitated!" "The emprah thought he had vaporized Horus, but actually the arch-betrayer escaped by foul sorcery and bidded his time behind the scenes for 10 000 years before showing himself again! What do you mean he left a body? Clones!"

There actually are Horus clones made by Bile and Manus' body is in the care of the Ad Mech, so they could possibly clone him.

[deuterio12]

I knew about the Horus clones, Abaddon went around killing them to show everybody who the new boss of the Black Legion was. The bit where Abaddon could roflstomp them shows they were pretty lousy clones however.

Didn't know the Ad mech looted Ferrus body though. After the primaris retcon, sure, go ahead and say somebody's been rebuilding Manus for the last 10 000 years.

Dorn needs a new pair of hands too, although it would be pretty awesome if he shows up with just a pair of arm stumps and stabs his enemies with the sharpened end of his bones.

[Cheesegear]

They've made a pretty lousy work for the primaris and their new vehicles in that case.

No-one wanted Primaris Marines, so why try?

Also can't wait for the retcons used to bring back those primarchs that are 120% dead.

The Iron Hands have Ferrus' skull. In return for following the Codex, Guilliman gives the Iron Hands back their Primarch's head. Granted, that story makes no sense, and doesn't explain how Guilliman got Ferrus' skull - I presume it was looted off The Vengeful Spirit at some point. But, that garbage story was written by Nick Kyme. Has nothing to do with 40K, and the Iron Hands have had his head since the Codex.

That said, the smart money is Ferrus' skull being implanted into a bigger, better, Redemptor Dreadnought chassis, probably 'Ironclad' (i.e; The current Redemptor Dreadnought, with an extra sprue), and Sanguinius returning in the form of a redesigned Sanguinor model.

Dorn needs a new pair of hands too, although it would be pretty awesome if he shows up with just a pair of arm stumps and stabs his enemies with the sharpened end of his bones.

I've repeatedly said that Dorn needs to come back with Chainswords-for-hands. Literal Chainfists.
Vulkan drops a throwaway line in The Beast Arises, implying that he knows where Dorn is, and that he'll talk to him. Further implying that Dorn also isn't dead.
That said, Vulkan is pretty insane - though he's got a bit better - so maybe he just talks to a corpse that may or may not be Dorn's. Who knows?

[deuterio12]

No-one wanted Primaris Marines, so why try?

Well the "we put power armor inside your power armor so you can power armor while you power armor" worked pretty well-twice (derpknights and loyalist obliterators), so "we put even more genetic modifications in your genetically modified super soldiers so you can spech merine while you spech merine" wasn't that much of a long shot.

Either way just seems weird that GW makes a bunch of new models for the new edition for the most popular faction and doesn't bother giving them uber rules all around.

That said, the smart money is Ferrus' skull being implanted into a bigger, better, Redemptor Dreadnought chassis, probably 'Ironclad' (i.e; The current Redemptor Dreadnought, with an extra sprue), and Sanguinius returning in the form of a redesigned Sanguinor model.

Why stop there? Have one of them come back as a knight/titan since we're at it (then add power armor on top, will sell like hot cakes).

Another possibility is that since BA are all buddy-buddy with necrons, Sanguinus comes back in a shiny new living metal body.

That said, Vulkan is pretty insane - though he's got a bit better - so maybe he just talks to a corpse that may or may not be Dorn's. Who knows?

DO YOU HEAR THE VOICES TOO?

And now that I think about it, in the old fluff all that was left of Dorn was his full skeleton in display, so clearly he actually animated himself, walked out from the display (leaving the hand bones behind because they were shackled or something) and will return as a power-armored skeleton.

[Cheesegear]

Why stop there? Have one of them come back as a knight/titan since we're at it.

Don't see why not.

Another possibility is that since BA are all buddy-buddy with necrons, Sanguinus comes back in a shiny new living metal body.

That's what I thought would happen to Creed. But it didn't. Because nobody gets new models.

I suspect that the only time we're going to get new models is for campaigns/events, where GW can make a big thing out of it. 'A new Codex' apparently doesn't justify new models anymore.

[Drasius]

But he's required to win...

... In a competitive meta, which isn't what GW has stated their intention is/was.

But, we know that Guilliman, Magnus and Mortarion are all broken. All of them.
Which, ultimately means that adding Primarchs to the game, has been a bad move, and will continue to be a bad move.

But, people want Primarchs. They just do. As broken as Primarchs have made the game, there are two or three that I can't wait for.
Because GW is a model company; They're giving players the models they want - Primarchs. And, in order to push those sales not just onto 'just consumers', but to the players ('Rules sell models'), make 'em broken.

This is one of the reasons why sometimes I'm sad that GW listens to its customers. But then, they could have made them balanced and still sold them by the truckload, so it's also on GW to not be a bunch of incompetent flogs when assigning points, which they have proved that they still can't do.

T4 / 3+ models aren't overpriced in a game where the win conditions of the game is tied to removing your opponent's models.
Unfortunately, the aim of the game isn't to remove your opponent's models.

So, T4 3+ models are currently overpriced is what you're saying? Though given how few games I've seen/heard that end with any (significant) number of models on the board seems to indicate that playing the mission is for chumps when you can just table your opponent 9 times out of 10.

... so maybe he just talks to a corpse that may or may not be Dorn's. Who knows?

Works for the Emperor, why not Dorn too?

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so looking on some feedback for my 1000 point Ad Mech list. I'll be fighting my buddies Primaris whenever he finishes them. He has a box of Agressors, Inceptors and Reivers as well as a Redemptor and whatever comes in the Dark Imperium box. I was originally gonna run Sisters, but i figured this was good motivation to get my Ad Mech done.

Spoiler: Explorator Maniple Delta

Show

Foregworld Stygies VIII

Battalion

HQ
Tech Priest Dominus w/ Volkite, Macrostubber, Axe and Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land-135
Tech Priest Dominus w/ Volkite, Macrostubber and Axe-135

Troops
3 Kataphron Destroyers w/ Heavy Grav Cannons and Cognis Flamers-225
5 Skitarii Rangers-40
5 Skitarii Rangers-40
5 Skitarii Vanguard w/ 2 Arc Rifles-53
5 Skitarii Vanguard w/ 2 Plasma Calivers-73
5 Skitarii Vanguard w/ 2 Plasma Calivers-73

Heavy Support
2 Kastellan Robots w/ 3 Heavy Phosphor Blasters-220

Total 994 points

[Cheesegear]

... In a competitive meta, which isn't what GW has stated their intention is/was.

I've mentioned once or twice, that in 8th Ed., it's never been easier to build a 'competitive' army, even by accident.

As each unit is its own, individual unit, there's no more Allied interactions of rules that don't belong together. Every unit, in every book, is designed to be taken on its own - at least in theory. All's you need to do, is be able to read. You don't have to think about building your list anymore, because the game has been so simplified - for better or worse. The game's accessibility has meant that new players can pick up the game very quickly. The simplified rule-set, also means that new players, can become good players - or, at least have a strong list - just so long as they can read their Codex and play to their meta. Because Mathhammer Excel Spreadsheets are the most accurate that they've ever been, it's very easy to find the best unit for the job you need.

All's you need to know is what the job you need to do, is; Play to your meta.

But then, they could have made them balanced and still sold them by the truckload...

We already know, pretty much from Matt Ward himself, that 'balanced rules' don't sell models.

[Blackhawk748]

We already know, pretty much from Matt Ward himself, that 'balanced rules' don't sell models.

And may he never be allowed to write a Codex again.

[Drasius]

... each unit is its own, individual unit, there's no more Allied interactions of rules that don't belong together. Every unit, in every book, is designed to be taken on its own - at least in theory. All's you need to do, is be able to read. You don't have to think about building your list anymore, because the game has been so simplified - for better or worse. The game's accessibility has meant that new players can pick up the game very quickly. The simplified rule-set, also means that new players, can become good players - or, at least have a strong list - just so long as they can read their Codex and play to their meta. Because Mathhammer Excel Spreadsheets are the most accurate that they've ever been, it's very easy to find the best unit for the job you need.

All's you need to know is what the job you need to do, is; Play to your meta.

Rubbish. The very fact that big blue is known as re-roll girlyman, the fact that every HQ beatstick hands out a rr1's aura, that various stratagems only work with certain keywords and the ability to cherrypick from at least 9 different mix-and-match factions means that there's more reliance on model interaction than ever. It's not deep and it's not complex, but it's more than "lol, warp spiders pwn ju n00b".

The only interaction that's changed is that IC's don't hand out their special rules willy-nilly now, except when the wording is poor on some abilities/stratagems that affect armies or certain keywords with no restrictions.

The cancer that is allies/pick'n'mix is worse, not better, as demonstrated by the amount of complaining about "soup" armies going on now.

We already know, pretty much from Matt Ward himself, that 'balanced rules' don't sell models.

Primarchs would have sold models because they're primarchs.

Having said that, you are a prime example (I assume) of someone who probably wouldn't have bought Gulliman since he's Ultras only and you run Fists normally (at least, they're painted that way). Now, because the primarchs are too good, and G-man was pretty damn good when he came out in late 7th too), you have bought a model that you wouldn't have normally.

Having said that however, would you have still spent that same money on a GW product? 'Cause if so, then they wouldn't have lost anything, so it doesn't really matter.

[Cheesegear]

Rubbish. The very fact that big blue is known as re-roll girlyman, the fact that every HQ beatstick hands out a rr1's aura, that various stratagems only work with certain keywords and the ability to cherrypick from at least 9 different mix-and-match factions means that there's more reliance on model interaction than ever.

I agree with you, if the intent is to form Death Stars. But, Auras aren't that big. 6", some might be 9" or 12", and Telion's is 3". If you plan to have one or two units around a strong - or very strong - force multiplier that's only one section of the board. This is where the difference between Maelstrom and Eternal War comes in; You can't castle up in Maelstrom. Your triad Death Star unit isn't going to do ****, because that's not how the game is played. And for as much as you say it, I've been tabled once this whole edition.

It's not deep and it's not complex, but it's more than "lol, warp spiders pwn ju n00b".

Guilliman's Move is 9", his Aura is only 6". Guilliman runs off to go Emperor's Sword my opponent's Warlord in the face.
Are my Hellblasters still good, even though they're not being force multiplied anymore? Are they still obviously the best thing in the book?

The cancer that is allies/pick'n'mix is worse, not better, as demonstrated by the amount of complaining about "soup" armies going on now.

Yes, but not because of Aura stacking.

Now, because the primarchs are too good, and G-man was pretty damn good when he came out in late 7th too), you have bought a model that you wouldn't have normally.

Yes. Because he's broken. That's why I bought him.
Wait...That's my point.

Having said that however, would you have still spent that same money on a GW product?

Eventually, yes. Especially now that video gaming is in the toilet because of loot boxes.
Although if Blood Angels/Dark Angels aren't good (I, personally am hoping for 'Assault Marines are Objective Secured in an Outrider Detachment'), then Guilliman is likely to be the last thing I spend money on in a long time. I already have Sniper Scouts. I already have a backload of Devastators. I have enough Razorbacks to choke a dog, and I got my Hellblaster fix when everyone was trading off their parts of the Dark Imperium starter.

So...Maybe I should get working on a trio of Nemesis Grand Masters.

[Forum Explorer]

That is what actually needs to happen. Space Marines are ****, to the point where without Guilliman, they're basically terrible.
I agree that Guilliman is undercosted. However, I think that Guilliman is costed exactly right 'within his Codex', because the SM Codex is a wasteland.

Well a good buff to start would be to let chapter tactics affect every unit, like they do for every other Codex that's come out.

[Cheesegear]

Well a good buff to start would be to let chapter tactics affect every unit, like they do for every other Codex that's come out.

You know what was good in 6th Ed., how Dark Angels was the first Codex, basically as a test-run. So by the time Codex Marines actually came out, they knew what was wrong with Dark Angels, and fixed all the problems... Because Power Creep would eventually say that Dark Angels - and Chaos Marines - would inevitably get terrible, no matter how they started the edition.

Space Marines, being first, inevitably gets Power Creep'd out of the game, simply by virtue of being the first Codex out of the gate, which sucks, because Marines - in the casual pool, that is - are the most popular Faction. Which is great for business, because the thing that most people want, is terrible.

[Forum Explorer]

You know what was good in 6th Ed., how Dark Angels was the first Codex, basically as a test-run. So by the time Codex Marines actually came out, they knew what was wrong with Dark Angels, and fixed all the problems... Because Power Creep would eventually say that Dark Angels - and Chaos Marines - would inevitably get terrible, no matter how they started the edition.

Space Marines, being first, inevitably gets Power Creep'd out of the game, simply by virtue of being the first Codex out of the gate, which sucks, because Marines - in the casual pool, that is - are the most popular Faction. Which is great for business, because the thing that most people want, is terrible.

Very true. But that buff is easy to implement at least, and can be done in an Errata. They've made bigger changes already. The question is, is that buff big enough?

[Drasius]

I agree with you, if the intent is to form Death Stars. But, Auras aren't that big. 6", some might be 9" or 12", and Telion's is 3". If you plan to have one or two units around a strong - or very strong - force multiplier that's only one section of the board. This is where the difference between Maelstrom and Eternal War comes in; You can't castle up in Maelstrom. Your triad Death Star unit isn't going to do ****, because that's not how the game is played.

How many times have you seen batrep pictures of Guilliman surrounded by Assbacks and heavy weapons squads with their own babysitters? I see it quite a bit, enough that, even though I wouldn't call it a deathstar, it's certainly able to force multiply a great deal and because it's usually heavy weapons, they've often got the range to project that force across a wide area. Even something like hellblasters or obliterators who've got shorter ranges can still tow their buffbot around (or get dragged along after Guilliman in the case of hellblasters) and control midfield super effectively. Even if G-man moves 9 against move 6 dudes, that's still in range of his aura for the first 2 turns (where your concentration of fire makes the most difference)

And for as much as you say it, I've been tabled once this whole edition.

Probably because you're not terrible, but go look online and you'll see that various forums are filled with reports of people being tabled turn 3/4. Hell, there was one a little while back where some chump got tabled before his first turn because he got Alpha Legion Berserker'ed. Granted, there was lots of stuff he could have done better/different, but the rate of model removal appears to have gone up from almost everything I've read.

Guilliman's Move is 9", his Aura is only 6". Guilliman runs off to go Emperor's Sword my opponent's Warlord in the face.
Are my Hellblasters still good, even though they're not being force multiplied anymore? Are they still obviously the best thing in the book?

Obviously, but they're also still pretty great if you've brought along another source of rr1's in your HQ slot. Hell, they're still pretty great because they're a whole unit of plasma guns in the plasma redux edition, with 2 wounds no less.

Yes, but not because of Aura stacking.

It certainly doesn't hurt since rr1's is the new prescience and it just works with no chance of failure.

Yes. Because he's broken. That's why I bought him.
Wait...That's my point.

I'm trying to approach it from both sides, not just pick a side and stick to it since, like many things, there are often multiple factors at play.

You know what was good in 6th Ed., how Dark Angels was the first Codex, basically as a test-run. So by the time Codex Marines actually came out, they knew what was wrong with Dark Angels, and fixed all the problems... Because Power Creep would eventually say that Dark Angels - and Chaos Marines - would inevitably get terrible, no matter how they started the edition.

Space Marines, being first, inevitably gets Power Creep'd out of the game, simply by virtue of being the first Codex out of the gate, which sucks, because Marines - in the casual pool, that is - are the most popular Faction. Which is great for business, because the thing that most people want, is terrible.

Remind me again how having 2 codecies stuck in trash tier for 3 or 4 years was a good thing for their players or the game? You're not wrong that the pattern has been weak-strong-balanced for the codex release cycle for a while now, however, consider that Eldar was the 4th book (out of 13) of 6th and ruled the roost all the way up until their 7th ed update where sh*t just got even worse and the game became nigh unplayable for anyone else.

Also, CSM was before DA.

Very true. But that buff is easy to implement at least, and can be done in an Errata. They've made bigger changes already. The question is, is that buff big enough?

Hopefully this is one of the things that chapter approved will bring.

[Cheesegear]

How many times have you seen batrep pictures of Guilliman surrounded by Assbacks and heavy weapons squads with their own babysitters?

Loads. That list won the Warhammer World Single-Faction only, lulz, Tournament, after all.
But that's Eternal War.

I see it quite a bit, enough that, even though I wouldn't call it a deathstar, it's certainly able to force multiply a great deal and because it's usually heavy weapons, they've often got the range to project that force across a wide area. Even something like hellblasters...

Hate to break it to you, kid. Assault Cannons have a range of 24", Hellblasters have a range of 30" - almost like they're good

Probably because you're not terrible, but go look online and you'll see that various forums are filled with reports of people being tabled turn 3/4. Hell, there was one a little while back where some chump got tabled before his first turn because he got Alpha Legion Berserker'ed. Granted, there was lots of stuff he could have done better/different, but the rate of model removal appears to have gone up from almost everything I've read.

That's just it. I've seen people be tabled. I'm almost certain that I've been to the same forums you have - even if I don't post. But, the people I see get tabled...Are...Umm...Bad?

You're not wrong that the pattern has been weak-strong-balanced for the codex release cycle for a while now, however, consider that Eldar was the 4th book (out of 13) of 6th...

The way that I saw the game was like;
Okay, Good, Better, '[Poop] We Broke The Game'...Once GW figures out where the line is, every Codex after 'the broken one' is pretty good or playable. But, to their detriment, they never 'go backwards', which means that once a Codex is printed - regardless of how broken it 'accidentally' is - it never gets changed... Which simply brings us back to in the age of the internet, where rules can be fixed, patched or changed with a few keystrokes, why doesn't GW just...Fix the game as problems arise? Because they can't. Not if they want people to buy Codecies - which they do.

[LeSwordfish]

Marched into the local GW and told them I wasn't leaving until I'd had a game. Or, well, in as many words.

Armies - 1500pts

Spoiler

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Death Guard
Typhus
Malignant Plaguecaster
Poxwalkers x12
Poxwalkers x12
Plague Marines x7 - 3x Plasma Gun, Powerfist
Plague Marines x7 - 2x Blight Launcher, Plasma Pistol, Powerfist, Rhino
Plague Marines x7 - 2x Flail, 2x Axe/Mace, Icon, Plasma Pistol, Powerfist, Rhino
Tallyman
Blightlord Terminators x5 - Flail, Reaper Autocannon
Foetid Bloat-Drone - Fleshmower

I say this a lot... but god the nurgle names are bad. Anyway, this list is cut down from my 2k: the plan is that the Plaguecaster picks Blades Of Putrefaction and hops in the rhino with the Tallyman and the melee marines. Between re-rolling to hit and lots of 2+rr1 to wound, that should be a pretty scary unit. Typhus and the poxwalkers do their thing on an objective: I know that more poxwalkers would be a smarter pick than the bloat-drone but I've just finished painting it up and wanted to try it out.

Grey Knights
Grand Master in Dreadknight
Interceptors
5 Custodes
5 Paladins
Apothecary
Brotherhood Banner Guy
Vindicare Assassin
Techmarine
Kaldor Draigo

Crikey, thats a death star and a half. The Dreadknight is a Vehicle, which means the techmarine can follow it around and fix it, and Draigo can get fixed up by the Apothecary.

We're playing the gametype with one objective each. Typhus and the poxwalkers take one, plus the footslogging Plague Marine Squad, while the other two squads in rhinos prepare to grab the other. He sets up the Vindicare on his objective, with the Custodes, Interceptors, and Grand Master all pushing deployment, and Draigo and his paladins in reserve. He wins the roll-off to go first, and I don't sieze.

Turn One
The sky falls. Draigo, the banner, apothecary, and Paladins all teleport in, and the Interceptors make a jump across the battlefield behind me. The paladin's shooting and psykery wipes out one squad of poxwalkers - but they've nothing left to target Typhus, thank god. The interceptors try for a nine-inch charge for the lulz, and actually make it into the back of a rhino: they only manage to knock a few wounds off, however. In my turn, the shooty squad disembarks from their rhino, which then Falls Back as fast as it can across the battlefield. His army is built almost entirely out of major threats, all of which will hit home next turn - the Custodes, the grand master, the paladin-bomb. Okay, well, what can be done with each of those? I move my poxwalkers in front of the paladin-bomb and deep strike my terminators as close to it as possible, then pop the Tallyman out of his rhino - Typhus and his mates will need that - before racing the melee-rhino and drone forwards and into the grand master. The disembarked blight launcher squad kills the Interceptors with a bit of Smite support from Typhus, the plasma guns manage to wound the grand master - which means it's up to the drone. The rhino goes first and the drone follows in - hitting on 4+ really hurts, but nine Str-8 attacks do another four damage and the Grand Master can't kill the drone with his attacks back, even if it is now only on two wounds.

(A Helpful Observer explains Typhus' special ability to me wrong at this point, insisting that it's a wide radius around all units in a radius of Typhus. "I have a pretty good memory for this kind of thing." Pause the game, check the rules, nope.)

Turn Two
The custodes move faster than I expected, and pull off a charge into my terminators. The paladins shoot, smite, and then charge one squad of plague marines, while the Apothecary goes for the zombies. I break out Counter-Attack and my wounded Blight Drone acts again, knocking a few more wounds off the grand master before dying. Typhus Heroic Interventions into the fight with the paladins but even with the Tallyman's re-roll can't kill any. The re-roll is invaluable for the Blightlords though, who manage to kill two Custodes in exchange for only one casualty- not bad, given that they were chewing through T5 3W 3++.

In my turn, Typhus breaks out Nurgle's Rot. It makes sense, right? He's within range of the Custodes, the Paladins, the Banner, and the Apothecary, all things that D3 mortal wounds would be desperately useful for. I spend the CPs, the Tallyman doesn't get me them back, roll for damage... One of the 4+ rolls goes through, and the D3 gets one mortal wound (on the banner). I should pay more attention to my own guide. The Melee-based plague marines disembark and charge the grand master: with Blades Of Putrefaction up they're wounding on 3, re-rolling ones and doing Mortal Wounds on sixes: he gets pretty beat up by the flail (I knew it was the best) and then takes a mortal wound from an ordinary plague knife and dies, allowing them to consolidate towards the techmarine. The grand master tries to do Only In Death does Duty End to attack back anyway, but only manages to kill one of them before collapsing (Only in Whiff does Duty End?)

Turn Three
In turn Three, the paladins keep pressing forward and kill both Typhus and the zombies. With both First Blood and Slay The Warlord in his hand, I really need to take both objectives, difficult as that will be with the paladins overrunning them. The Techmarine tries to run, firing his storm bolter, but the melee marines catch him and kill him. The Vindicare takes two wounds off my Plaguecaster, persuading me to not run in with him as well: instead the Rhinos both move onto the Vindicare's objective and storm bolter him in the face - to no effect.

Turn Four
Over the course of the turn, the Paladins move onto the objective and wipe out my ranged plague marines, while Draigo and the Brotherhood Banner move up to follow them. The banner's been invaluable so far in the game, handing out attack and save bonuses, but at this point it dies? I don't remember how. Maybe one of my Mortal Wound auras got it? Maybe the Tallyman's pistol did? Maybe it perilsed? Either way, in turn five and beyond I don't remember it coming up at all. My melee plague marines aren't buffed and almost certainly can't take the Paladins: it's charge or be charged though: they pick Charge and kill a paladin before being efficiently mullered, with only half of them alive. Disgustingly Resilient is nearly useless on one-wound models vs D3 damage hits, though I do roll a few lucky boxcars. On the other side of the objective, the Blightlord terminators finish off killing the Custodes, which I wasn't expecting: I should have been, I suppose, since they're comparable points and flails on multi-attack models are ludicrously effective when you keep rolling six attacks.

Turn Five
I've got the only Objective Secured on the board, and he's dangerously low on numbers: this could still be all to play for. Draigo and the Apothecary charge the terminators. This doesn't go well: the terminators kill the apothecary and manage to put a wound on Draigo, at the cost of only a single casualty themselves. The paladins do better though, killing all but one of the plague marines (the sargeant, who hasn't landed a single powerfist hit all game - i'm sure he's worth it when the Tallyman's there.)

In my turn, the Malefic Plaguecaster is the only thing that can move. He Advances as fast as he can to get to where Draigo is nearest, then Smites him, casting on a 9 which means he scores an extra mortal wound. Draigo is taken down to two wounds. As an afterthought, I try to increase the Toughness of the plague champion...
...and fail
...and perils
...and die
...and do d3 mortal wounds to nearby units.
Kaldor Draigo is unceremoniously sucked into the warp. That's what you get for graffitiing the boss's heart!

End of turn five, I have Linebreaker, Warlord, and two rhinos on one objective and two terminators on the other. Does the game continue?

Turn Six Or Is It?

Spoiler

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Yes! His paladins charge my terminators, denying me that objective, but forcing them to lose Linebreaker. Thanks to an extremely lucky series of Disgustingly Resilient rolls, I survive. That means that we each have Slay The Warlord, he has First Blood and I have Linebreaker - It's a draw... oh. No it's not. Tanks can't hold objectives, the Helpful Observer helpfully informs me. Thanks buddy. Would have been handy to have heard that ten minutes ago. Ah well: victory to the Grey Knights. You can't say I didn't work for it.

This was a fun game! It was nice to try out the Bloat-drone, but my opinion of it has not increased. "Nine str-8 attacks" sounds scary, but only when you're at full health and only hitting on 4+, and even power armor is gettinga 5+ save - you're looking at only two or three dead marines.

[Cheesegear]

Tanks can't hold objectives, the Helpful Observer helpfully informs me...

What? Since when? Why do Leman Russes have Objective Secured?
Of course Vehicles can hold Objectives. The only units that explicitly don't Score is literally anything in the Flier slot. But if Tanks don't Score, why would you have to explicitly point out that Fliers don't?

Never let people who aren't even playing explain rules to you, and certainly don't listen to them if they don't pull out a rulebook.

All models score unless they explicitly don't. Like, unless it's Relic and only <Infantry> can hold it.

[LeSwordfish]

What? Since when? Why do Leman Russes have Objective Secured?
Of course Vehicles can hold Objectives. The only units that explicitly don't Score is literally anything in the Flier slot. But if Tanks don't Score, why would you have to explicitly point out that Fliers don't?

Never let people who aren't even playing explain rules to you, and certainly don't listen to them if they don't pull out a rulebook.

All models score unless they explicitly don't. Like, unless it's Relic and only <Infantry> can hold it.

...huh.

I didnt have my full rulebook at the time, and both him and someone else corroborated: vehicles dont score but leman russes do. Now I look in the rulebook, it doesn't mention them, or any restrictions at all.

"Pretty good memory for that kind of thing" my arse. I had to pause the game to interrupt him explaining Power Levels wrong too*, so I don't know why I trusted him. Ah well, the moral draw to me! I'll mention it to him if I see him again, although I shan't go complaining to my opponent (who was very nice, and a little embarrassed about winning through a technicality.)

*he was saying that they were calculated to the maximum amount of upgrades, and telling a kid that if he played Power Levels he should take maximum upgrades or he was behind... that struck me as actively harmful to that kid and his opponent's enjoyment, so I wasn't just being the "well actually" guy.

[Blackhawk748]

*he was saying that they were calculated to the maximum amount of upgrades, and telling a kid that if he played Power Levels he should take maximum upgrades or he was behind... that struck me as actively harmful to that kid and his opponent's enjoyment, so I wasn't just being the "well actually" guy.

Wasn't it flat out stated by the developers at some point that its based off of the Average in upgrades? So taking maximum point upgrades would put you ahead. In any eve nthey should use points as Power Points dont work right anyway.

Also

Ok, so looking on some feedback for my 1000 point Ad Mech list. I'll be fighting my buddies Primaris whenever he finishes them. He has a box of Agressors, Inceptors and Reivers as well as a Redemptor and whatever comes in the Dark Imperium box. I was originally gonna run Sisters, but i figured this was good motivation to get my Ad Mech done.

Spoiler: Explorator Maniple Delta

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Foregworld Stygies VIII

Battalion

HQ
Tech Priest Dominus w/ Volkite, Macrostubber, Axe and Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land-135
Tech Priest Dominus w/ Volkite, Macrostubber and Axe-135

Troops
3 Kataphron Destroyers w/ Heavy Grav Cannons and Cognis Flamers-225
5 Skitarii Rangers-40
5 Skitarii Rangers-40
5 Skitarii Vanguard w/ 2 Arc Rifles-53
5 Skitarii Vanguard w/ 2 Plasma Calivers-73
5 Skitarii Vanguard w/ 2 Plasma Calivers-73

Heavy Support
2 Kastellan Robots w/ 3 Heavy Phosphor Blasters-220

Total 994 points

Making sure this didnt get buried in the Guliman discussion.

[LeSwordfish]

Wasn't it flat out stated by the developers at some point that its based off of the Average in upgrades? So taking maximum point upgrades would put you ahead. In any eve nthey should use points as Power Points dont work right anyway.

Yeah, that was the correction I made. I think playing with power level is perfectly reasonable at the super-casual level, and that thinking too much about how to get ahead or game the system will really spoil it.

[LansXero]

So, just ordered a new!Celestine because christmas is coming :v. How big is she? I got the old one, but its tiny; I want to test the new one, but its gonna be like a month until it gets here. Dreadnought big?