Can you fix a class (or subclass) with one single change?

[JNAProductions]

Well, it's on par with resisting all damage but psychic.

Debatable. Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing are the most common damage types by a long shot, meaning in many encounters, you don't gain any real advantage from being Bear. Whereas a free extra attack will help pretty much every encounter faster, which means less damage to you and your party.

[Dr.Samurai]

A 5th level fighter with PAM is doing three attacks.

A 5th level berserker that's Frenzying is also doing three attacks.

What's the big difference here that requires one to be limited in uses per day, and smacking you with Exhaustion? Is it Reckless Attack? The +2 damage? The damage die on PAM is smaller?

[JNAProductions]

A 5th level fighter with PAM is doing three attacks.

A 5th level berserker that's Frenzying is also doing three attacks.

What's the big difference here that requires one to be limited in uses per day, and smacking you with Exhaustion? Is it Reckless Attack? The +2 damage? The damage die on PAM is smaller?

PAM is generally considered too powerful, so not exactly the point you want to be balancing on.

And considering the PAM die is d4 and the Barbarian can be swinging a greatsword...

Actually, let me math it.

Assuming the Fighter has +3 strength, and the Barb has +4 (he didn't waste an ASI on PAM, after all)...

Fighter does: 2d10+1d4+9, or 22.5, hitting on 9s probably, for 13.5 DPR.
Barbarian does: 6d6+18, or 39, hitting on 8s probably, for 25.35 DPR.

[Mister_Squinty]

A 5th level fighter with PAM is doing three attacks.

A 5th level berserker that's Frenzying is also doing three attacks.

What's the big difference here that requires one to be limited in uses per day, and smacking you with Exhaustion? Is it Reckless Attack? The +2 damage? The damage die on PAM is smaller?

Plus PAM costs a Feat and Frenzy is a free subclass feature.

[Tanarii]

A 5th level fighter with PAM is doing three attacks.

PaM is broken.
If it's comparable to PAM, it's broken.

Fighter does: 2d10+1d4+9, or 22.5, hitting on 9s probably, for 13.5 DPR.
Barbarian does: 6d6+18, or 39, hitting on 8s probably, for 25.35 DPR.

Fighters hit ~60% of the time, Barbarians ~84%. Because of Reckless Attack.

[Dr.Samurai]

Ok, so then back to my first question. Is it the level at which you get it? Because a fighter gets three attacks at level 11 and still keeps his bonus action. Does the fighter become broken at level 11, or does the math balance out at that level as far as extra attacks go?

[JNAProductions]

Ok, so then back to my first question. Is it the level at which you get it? Because a fighter gets three attacks at level 11 and still keeps his bonus action. Does the fighter become broken at level 11, or does the math balance out at that level as far as extra attacks go?

And Paladins get Improved Divine Smite. EVERYONE is a lot more powerful at level 11. PAM is, admittedly, less of a big deal, since it's now a lesser percentage of your attacks... Unless you're, say, a Paladin, in which case it becomes even more powerful, what with the Improved Divine Smite.

Fighters hit ~60% of the time, Barbarians ~84%. Because of Reckless Attack.

Reckless Attack comes with a major downside, though-so I did a straight, no advantage comparison.

[Dr.Samurai]

And Paladins get Improved Divine Smite. EVERYONE is a lot more powerful at level 11.

So you’re okay with it at level 11 then? Because it was suggested as a fix to drop Exhaustion at level 10 and that was still considered broken according to Tanaari. So why is the Barbarian using one of his Rages to get an extra attack as a bonus action broken, but the fighter getting three attacks with his regular Attack action not broken?

I’m guessing it’s Reckless Attack. Otherwise, I’m not really seeing the problem. But again, I admit, I’m not a rules mechanics guy.

[JNAProductions]

So you’re okay with it at level 11 then? Because it was suggested as a fix to drop Exhaustion at level 10 and that was still considered broken according to Tanaari. So why is the Barbarian using one of his Rages to get an extra attack as a bonus action broken, but the fighter getting three attacks with his regular Attack action not broken?

I’m guessing it’s Reckless Attack. Otherwise, I’m not really seeing the problem. But again, I admit, I’m not a rules mechanics guy.

Your example was at 5th level-that's what I was talking about.

I'm not going to say that Frenzy is well-balanced. It's not-Exhaustion is too much. But giving it for free from the get-go is too much in the opposite direction.

[Tanarii]

Reckless Attack comes with a major downside, though-so I did a straight, no advantage comparison.

barbarians will generally use reckless, even with the downside. Unless you're surrounded by many enenmies, it's still a huge benefit. Generally speaking it's better to assume it's being used the majority if the time.

So you’re okay with it at level 11 then? Because it was suggested as a fix to drop Exhaustion at level 10 and that was still considered broken according to Tanaari. So why is the Barbarian using one of his Rages to get an extra attack as a bonus action broken, but the fighter getting three attacks with his regular Attack action not broken?

I’m guessing it’s Reckless Attack. Otherwise, I’m not really seeing the problem. But again, I admit, I’m not a rules mechanics guy.

Unlimited frenzy on rage is still incredibly powerful even at level 10. Less so in a game that allows PAM, but more so in a game that allows GWM. But you're right, I was knee jerking to it at level being used in mid tier one and low tier 2, where it's far more powerful, relatively speaking. If I was going to increase it, if go with an extra 'free' use (for two total) with the option to take exhaustion after that. It still gives the player the option to push the limits if they need to.

Regardless, IMO the subclass should get at least one free use of Frenzy per day.

btw, just for comparison, barbarians get a defensive bonus at level 11 (relentless rage), as opposed to fighters offensive one.

And yes, reckless makes a huge difference. It's what gives barbarians significant damage boost.

[Theodoxus]

What about Horde Breaker? For free, extra attack at 3rd level. Rangers can make 3 attacks, with zero drawback at 5th. Only limitation is requiring 2 opponents within 5' of each other.

What if everything that provides an extra attack (other than, ironically, Extra Attack) requires said setup?

Would Frenzy be so OP then if it's still requiring Raging (a very limited resource). Would PAM be?

[Easy_Lee]

What about Horde Breaker? For free, extra attack at 3rd level. Rangers can make 3 attacks, with zero drawback at 5th. Only limitation is requiring 2 opponents within 5' of each other.

That's actually a significant limitation. The ranger in one of my current groups almost never gets to use it because the DM always throws giants and bandit archers at the group.

[Haldir]

My simple fix is for 1/3 casters. They get to round up their spellcaster level for multiclassing. It's actually a huge help for most builds at some of the most important levels.

[Theodoxus]

That's actually a significant limitation. The ranger in one of my current groups almost never gets to use it because the DM always throws giants and bandit archers at the group.

Right - which is my point. No one cares about horde breaker, even though it's completely free (not a bonus action, requires no resources) - all because it's less common in some games (my hunter regularly gets to use it, because he has a couple of melee heavies that gather enemies into packs).

So, if every other ability had the same restriction, there shouldn't be any reason why PAM, TWF or the cleave from GWM - along with Frenzy - shouldn't be likewise completely free to use.

[Protato]

Anyone else think Shadow Hound in UA Hexblade could stand to be replaced by the Eldritch Smite Invocation instead? I like the subclass and its flavor but having a lite familiar and not a new martial skill makes little sense to me.

Someone on the front page suggested the Bard could have a Thunder attack using their voice and I quite like that idea. For that matter, I think every magic class should be allowed to have a few "free" cantrips. Druids get Druidcraft, Clerics and Paladins get Thaumaturgy, and the arcane casters get Prestidigitation. Everyone also gets an attack cantrip or two for free. A Wizard/Sorcerer could choose between Shocking Grasp/Ray of Frost/Firebolt, Druids get Produce Flame, Bards get the sonic attack along with Vicious Mockery, Warlocks get Eldritch Blast, and Clerics/Paladins automatically get Sacred Flame. Other than the free cantrips mentioned, Paladins still wouldn't get any. Mostly I think it'd be flavorful but it also frees slots for interesting options.

[Specter]

I still don't think removing exhaustion at level 10 is too much. It's level 10, this is the end of Tier 2, and a dual-wielding barbarian can still accomplish the same things except for the -5/+10 from GWM. This is supposed to be what the subclass does well.

But let's pretend it is. What other fix would you implant, then?
Maybe something like this?

Fury Beyond Body
At level 10, you can recover from your frenzies more quickly. You can recover one level of exhaustion gained through your Frenzy ability on a short rest, and two on a long rest.

[EvilAnagram]

I still don't think removing exhaustion at level 10 is too much. It's level 10, this is the end of Tier 2, and a dual-wielding barbarian can still accomplish the same things except for the -5/+10 from GWM. This is supposed to be what the subclass does well.

But let's pretend it is. What other fix would you implant, then?
Maybe something like this?

Fury Beyond Body
At level 10, you can recover from your frenzies more quickly. You can recover one level of exhaustion gained through your Frenzy ability on a short rest, and two on a long rest.

How about, "You can recover one level of exhaustion every short rest."

You still have to deal with the consequences of Frenzy, but they don't last as long. This also gives Barbarians a single short rest resource to play with.

[Specter]

How about, "You can recover one level of exhaustion every short rest."

You still have to deal with the consequences of Frenzy, but they don't last as long. This also gives Barbarians a single short rest resource to play with.

You'd still have to specify Frenzy echaustion, otherwise such a character wouldnever syarve or freeze to death.

[EvilAnagram]

You'd still have to specify Frenzy echaustion, otherwise such a character wouldnever syarve or freeze to death.

Super endurance seems like a decent barbarian ribbon.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Super endurance seems like a decent barbarian ribbon.

Yeah, but giving them complete blanket immunity to exhaustion would mean that they'd never ever have to sleep again, or stop marching, of a bunch of other things. I think that it may be worthwhile to limit it to exhaustion caused by frenzy.

[Mister_Squinty]

Yeah, but giving them complete blanket immunity to exhaustion would mean that they'd never ever have to sleep again, or stop marching, of a bunch of other things. I think that it may be worthwhile to limit it to exhaustion caused by frenzy.

Allowing them to recover one level of exhaustion on a short rest as long as they slept/drank/ate, perhaps?

[EvilAnagram]

Once per long rest, you can recover a level of exhaustion on a short rest.

[Tanarii]

Once per long rest, you can recover a level of exhaustion on a short rest.

Oh I like that. Works just like Arcane Recovery. Put that on top of one exhaustion free Frenzy per Long Rest at level 3, and it fixes the problems I have with the subclass.

Edit: The reason I like it is it can be used for more than just Frenzy exhaustion ... once per long rest. Stack with the free level removed on a Long Rest, it means the Barbarian can Frenzy 3 times in one day and still be able to go the next day. But has short term consequences in the until short rest after the second, and until long rest after the third.

[DanyBallon]

Oh I like that. Works just like Arcane Recovery. Put that on top of one exhaustion free Frenzy per Long Rest at level 3, and it fixes the problems I have with the subclass.

Edit: The reason I like it is it can be used for more than just Frenzy exhaustion ... once per long rest. Stack with the free level removed on a Long Rest, it means the Barbarian can Frenzy 3 times in one day and still be able to go the next day. But has short term consequences in the until short rest after the second, and until long rest after the third.

I'm not sure I like the idea of be able to frenzy three time a day as early as 3rd level. I must say that I like Frenzy as it is because it's flavorful and it's flavorful because the offset to Frenzy is very harsh. Now, while Berserker are not meant to Frenzy all day long (their 6th level is in my opinion much better that totem barbarian and is the defining feature of the berserker), being able to do it once or twice a day if you really need to is may be a bit too limiting. I like the idea of allowing a single short rest to remove an exhaustion level (not just Frenzy exhaustion, Berserker are amazingly resilient) once per day, but I wouldn't go further than that, otherwise most of the flavor of using exhaustion level after a Frenzy is lost

[mephnick]

Yeah, I like the Arcane Recovery type ability, but stacking it with a free Frenzy seems like too much for me. One or the other in my opinion.

[Kane0]

I like to substitute in a Hit Die cost because its both a unique mechanic, keeps some sort of limit that grows with level and balances out the reduced damage you usually take in an encounter using frenzy

[Mara]

You could have frenzy consume another use of rage.

[Dudewithknives]

Warlocks are long rest half casters not short rest oddball casters, just drop the arcanum.

[Tanarii]

I'm not sure I like the idea of be able to frenzy three time a day as early as 3rd level.

1/day without exhaustion at 3rd level.
2/day with exhaustion until your next short rest at 10th level.
3/day with exhaustion until your your next long rest, at 10th level.
4/day with one level of exhaustion carrying over to the next day after the long rest, at 10th level.
etc

This post was in response to the other's suggestions that exhaustion go away completely at level 10.

Now, while Berserker are not meant to Frenzy all day long (their 6th level is in my opinion much better that totem barbarian and is the defining feature of the berserker), being able to do it once or twice a day if you really need to is may be a bit too limiting.

Well, 6/day is effectively "all day long" for the average adventuring day, given the way 5e encounters per day are designed to work. 4/day is "as many as you have rages per day" starting at level 5.

I like the idea of allowing a single short rest to remove an exhaustion level (not just Frenzy exhaustion, Berserker are amazingly resilient) once per day, but I wouldn't go further than that, otherwise most of the flavor of using exhaustion level after a Frenzy is lost

Agreed, that's why I liked it too.

[Asmotherion]

Dragon Sorcerer Level 18 Capstone: You Become an actual Adult Dragon of your origin. No kidding. All Full casters can turn into Dragons by that Level, but Dragonic Origin Sorcerers can't and that's silly. I'd include the Shapechange ability even to Chromatics, to turn back into their previous Selves, and not include Legendary actions... Probably also Keep their own Mental Abilities (for better or for worse) in both shapes... That might actually encourage a sorcerer to play up to level 18, instead of multiclassing into Paladin (or playing a Wizard for an Arcane Caster - I don't, but most people do so).

Totem Barbarian: Remove the spellcasting restriction on rage... it's enough that you can't concentrate on spells. The Totem Barbarian/Shaman is the "Spellcaster" Barbarian, and should be able to use some Raging Spellcasting... I'd love the idea of some Raging Eldritch Blasts as a theme (without it necesserally giving any benefit whatsoever, just for the idea of an RP trope).

Eldritch Knight; War Magic: If only if worked the other way around! Either:
Option 1: When you make the Attack action on your Turn, you can use a bonus action to cast a cantrip.
Option 2: When you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can use a bonus action to use the Attack action.

Or, the perfect one:
War Magic: When you use your action to use an Attack Roll Cantrip, you can use a Bonus action on your turn to use one more Attack Roll Cantrip on your turn.

Walock, Pact of the Blade: You use your Charisma Mod for the Attack/Damage Rolls of the Blade, instead of Str/Dexterity. The Blade is made of pure eldritch energy unless you make a specific weapon your pact weapon (fluff change).

Paladin, Oath of Vengence: Darker tone to the actual oath, making him more of a neutral Paladin, with Evil tendencies, than a Chaotic Good Paladin. Fluff Changes.

Paladin/Ranger: Give them some cantrips! The only reason I'd never consider playing a Pure Paladin/Ranger is because they have no cantrips. Real Casters have Casntrip, and Even Arcane Tricksters/Eldritch Knights feel more like real casters to me, than Paladins or Rangers (eventhough they have less spells/spellcasting progression) because of this fact.